A month or two ago there was a lot of threads about how the spellplague seemed to contradict all earlier canon and how it shouldn't have happened for numerous reasons. I've done a quick search and couldn't find those threads so I'd greatly appreciate it if everyone could post about all the reasons they think the spellplague shouldn't have happened* (or link to earlier posts of theirs). It'd be really cool if you can cite earlier lore to back up your reasoning too
The sort of posts I mean is how Shar should have been able to hold onto the Weave or even if she couldn't she should have been able to hold onto the Shadow Weave.
Thanks in advance. This is for a possible campaign of mine:
Show
dealing with the nature of the spellplague and possibly the true cause behind it.
A) After Mystryl killed herself, there was a 5 round (30 seconds-5 minutes, I never played 2e, and different people tell me different things, that a 2e round was 6 seconds, and that a 2e round was 1 minute) gap in which the Weave did not exist. As such, magic went inert and did not function. It did not "Spellplague".
B) After Mystra's avatar was killed at the hands of Helm, during the Time of Troubles, there was no deity of magic. Note that this example is "contaminated" to a degree, however, because of the fact that there was no deity of magic already, with Mystra being relegated to a mortal, and magic existing in flux. Regardless, there was no "Spellplague".
-Then, concerning Shar "holding back" the rebirth of Mystra (or whatever it was supposed to be). There is nothing in her mechanical make-up that shows her being capable of this, and the promotion/demotion of deities is under the purview of Ao, not Shar.
We don't know all the details, we don't have to know... it really comes down to you and your players/DM. Use what you like, come up with what's fun for your group and enjoy the Realms how you see fit.
The only negativity brought to this thread thus far has been you. No discontent and unhappiness was shown, only facts. A question was asked by the OP, and Lord Karsus replied.
@JohnLynch,
To add my 2 cents, I think Shar lost control over the shadow weave because the weave and shadow weave were portrayed as being closely intertwined. I also think she fumbled control of the weave simply because she was not prepared for the consequences of Mystra's death. She probably was kept fairly busy holding her own doman together and folding the plane of Shadow into the Shadowfell. In addition, Shar might have experienced some interference from Cyric (who might have made a grab for it himself at the last moment). I think of 2 baseball players both trying to catch a baseball and instead colliding with each other :D . All in all, I think Shar was multitasking a little too much to handle the weaves and lost them.
What I find most interesting is her followers efforts to rebuild the shadow weave. If that task proves successful, then the weave itself could be rebuilt.
that a 2e round was 6 seconds, and that a 2e round was 1 minute
It's one minute, according to the AD&D PHB, pages 91 and 119.
@krownhunter07,
The only negativity brought to this thread thus far has been you. No discontent and unhappiness was shown, only facts. A question was asked by the OP, and Lord Karsus replied.
Not what I was talking about, thanks... I was answering why some people have been saying it goes against cannon, not saying or implying it was happening here.
Not what I was talking about, thanks... I was answering why some people have been saying it goes against cannon, not saying or implying it was happening here.
It's a question that can't be answered because there is no canon that directly opposes it as a possibility. Only issues in the past that speak against it.
It's a question that can't be answered because there is no canon that directly opposes it as a possibility. Only issues in the past that speak against it.
Indeed... and to think that water flows downhill the same way, every time, is flawed logic at it's finest.
Indeed... and to think that water flows downhill the same way, every time, is flawed logic at it's finest.
Speaking of water, there is that whole flushing of the toilet bowl thing.
Maybe if we stare deeper into the pot we will find the answer.
There is no canon that says "If Mystra is murdered on her home plane, magic does this..". In cases like that you need to look at past relevant cases that are similar (i.e. past incidences with Mystryl/Mystra dying) and from that make your hypothesis. Since she has died twice before and neither time caused a spellplague, LK's reasoning is as good as any. The fly in the ointment this time is that Wizards decided not to bring Mystra back (yet or at all) and giving Shar the new power of blocking the ascension of a new god/goddess of magic.
Wizards decided not to bring Mystra back (yet or at all) and giving Shar the new power of blocking the ascension of a new god/goddess of magic.
Say what? When and where?
Say what? When and where?
It's an assumption based on what we've been shown. It could be that she (somehow) used divine power to stop a new GoM or it could be her lobbing AO not to allow one or her using her power over secrets to keep it on the down-low while it happened so a new GoM didn't happen... or any number of ways that are within the realm of fictional possibility. Creative imagination doesn't get stuffed at the door of cannon...
It's an assumption based on what we've been shown. It could be that she (somehow) used divine power to stop a new GoM or it could be her lobbing AO not to allow one or her using her power over secrets to keep it on the down-low while it happened so a new GoM didn't happen... or any number of ways that are within the realm of fictional possibility. Creative imagination doesn't get stuffed at the door of cannon...
Which is why we are talking canon--Not that you or Karazhan weren't on that subject.
By the way, the real story is Cyric simply had gas, farted and blew up the plane.
Whats wrong with having gas?
Nothing wrong with gas, but Cyric needed to use the celestial outhouse which was built to prevent such plane altering/shifting occurrances.
Fact is, it doesn't go against cannon unless you want it to.
I personally look at it like this:
One of Ao's duties and abilities is to handle the promotion of beings to godhood. Now, if there is a new god/goddess of magic trying to emerge/ascend etc., and Shar is preventing this, I liken it to Shar intercepting Ao's emails before they reach him. Now, while she can try to do this, Ao should get wind of such interference and move to put her back in her place. Since that has not happened, I see it as a breach of canon. Just my opinion.
When you ASSUME the meaning of something, it isn't cannon. Since we don't know EXACTLY what took place, all we can do is ASSUME.
1+1=2... It is not against cannon unless you ASSUME. It isn't in-line with cannon unless you ASSUME. We do not know all the details, so we have to fill in the blanks if we want them. I find it far easier to make it fit then force it not too.
My point is that if Shar is blocking (by any means) the ascension of a new deity of magic, Ao (being supposedly all powerful and knowing) would/should find out and stop it. Since his job is to maintain order and stability, I would think he has spies, deity cams, and other assorted means of watching the gods activities. I also see your argument and respect that.
1) Karsus caused the first issue with Mystryl
2) Helm caused the second
3) Shar and Cyric caused the third
Since Shar and Cyric caused the most destruction, loss of life, and general "grief" through causing the spellplague, I personally find it hypocritical (of Ao not you) that Shar would be seen as balancing anything.
I also think the obsessive need to kill Mystra comes from the huge love/hate relationship she has with the target audience. I personally see that as a reason to keep her around.
Since Shar and Cyric caused the most destruction, loss of life, and general "grief" through causing the spellplague, I personally find it hypocritical (of Ao not you) that Shar would be seen as balancing anything.
Ahh, but see, she lost the shadow weave, the weave and her edge in power compaired to Selune. Shar lost in more ways then one and things are more balanced now then they were before.
I also think the obsessive need to kill Mystra comes from the huge love/hate relationship she has with the target audience. I personally see that as a reason to keep her around.
Ehh, I had no problem with her, but a great many did... I also don't have a problem with her being gone, so it's a non-issue for me.
It would be a rough balance if Shar remained without the shadow weave. Unfortunately, she already has a floating citadel of followers experimenting to recreate it.
Which is just seeds to adventure for stopping it... it doesn't change the fact that it's gone. You do see my point, though, right?
There is no concrete, 100% proof that it goes against cannon.
-Well, no. In situation 1, X happened. In situation 2, X happened. In situation 3, Y happened. The end result of situation 1, 2, and 3 were all the same. X should have happened in all three runs. Instead, X happened in two, and Y happened in one.
It's one minute, according to the AD&D PHB, pages 91 and 119.
-Thank you for settling the issue. That was not the answer I wanted to hear, but it is what it is. That sets up the most unbelievable of the two, meaning it took 5 minutes for the Netherese enclaves to fall, not 30 seconds, which was quite more believable. Ho hum...
-Well, no. In situation 1, X happened. In situation 2, X happened. In situation 3, Y happened. The end result of situation 1, 2, and 3 were all the same. X should have happened in all three runs. Instead, X happened in two, and Y happened in one.
In the most general way of viewing it. I'm sure it's not beyond understanding that different circumstances can have differing effects, even if it is doing the same thing. Again, water running downhill...
The fact is, we don't have enough information to see, one way or another, if it goes against cannon unless we assume... something I don't do.
The proper answer to the OP's question is thus;
We don't know enough to say for certain, but my views are X, whereas it could be Y or even Z.
*It's only against cannon if you go out of your way to make it so. Very simple.
Previous: X happened.
Now: Y happened.
X =/= Y
Which is why we are talking canon--Not that you or Karazhan weren't on that subject.
By the way, the real story is Cyric simply had gas, farted and blew up the plane.
Whats wrong with having gas?
In Cyric's case? To bad it didn't envelope and consume that bumbling tool of a god. To bad Mystra didn't have some sort of contingency that would have left Cyric as nothing more than a fine pile of ash when she died.
-Again, the OP asked how does the notion of the Spellplague go against information that has come before.
Previous: X happened.
Now: Y happened.
X =/= Y
Yes, and x-2 =/= 2x...
It isn't against cannon. Saying it is, is misleading and I'm the only person giving him a truly objective truth here.
If anyone can't see that, well... you aren't trying to see it, but I refuse to lie or mislead people on the boards.
Bottom line, it isn't against cannon. It is left open for players/DM's to fill in the how and whys and to use it however they see fit to enjoy their game.
Also, LK, why is 5 minutes less believable than 30 seconds for the Netherese to fall? I don't know the whole story behind them.
Now, the Arcanists and Theologians tell us that the Goddess of Magic died in all three cases. These same scholars tell us how the event unfolded. But, Karsus and his cronies weren't around to explain the full details. Cyric and Shar aren't exactly trustworthy witnesses (and the other gods are questionable witnesses too, I doubt they would have succeeded if the gods were paying attention to those two power-hungry troublemakers, so who saw it happen? Ao? he's not talking.). The only one we have a pretty clear look at is the Times of Troubles because the unique and corporeal interference by all deities in the mortal world.
But, let us change our perspective for a moment, Oghma seems to believe that Karsus's epic spell stripped Mystryl of her power causing her death, and his. The weave began to unravel and within moments magic failed enough that the Netherese cities toppled. Do we know for certain that this wasn't accompanied by a burst of wild magic in some way? Not necessarily the same manner as the others, but some conflagration related to a lack of guidance? No, what we do know is that pretty darn fast Ao elevated a new Goddess of Magic. Her lapse in control wasn't long (several minutes at the longest).
The Time of Troubles witnessed what a greatly diminished version of a Goddess of Magic's death would accomplish (Dead Magic zone in Cormyr as I recall), and with her consciousness removed from her planar home the weave became exceedingly unstable causing great chaos. Nature itself saw some of these instabilities (see Shadowdale module for some examples), likely because Silvanus was no longer in full control of his abilities. Of course, what we're forgetting here is that while Mystra died, she had invested (over time) much of her divine power in her Chosen. This, it could be argued, allowed the weave to draw on that source to maintain what little elasticity it could. If I'm not mistaken this was a safety valve in case of this very turn of events (thanks to the first death).
This recent death occurred on her home plane, arguably permanent, at the hands of two deities (if we didn't see Cyric trying this soon we weren't paying attention). Why does magic survive at all? Well...I wonder whether Talos, Azuth, Corellon and other deities maintained the system. I know Talos has apparently disappeared (I haven't seen where to) but we know he had long plans to steal away some of Mystra's power (likely becoming patron to Evokers and Wild Mages).
Alternatively, and again, I'm only imagining myself as a parish goer in Mistledale trying to understand the stories my priest is telling me... perhaps Magic has always been an enigmatic force flowing through the realms very makeup. But, at the dawn of human memory Mystryl became a focus for giving it order and rigidity (as explained through the Weave). The "Shadow Weave" as has been described is the mirror to the Weave, or the space between the threads. If you've ever had a sweater you know that if you try to make the spaces between the yarn bigger you start to undermine the integrity of the sweater causing holes and such. If Mystra is simply a spell loom keeping magic rigid and understandable, then playing with the threads would have weakened her, yes? Then, without the weave there are no longer gaps (or shadow spaces) to control. Magic becomes chaotic and unwieldy for a time as the taught threads lash about. The result of this lack of control is chaos: the spell plague. We do know that wild magic occurred in 1358, and that the loss of Mystra resulted in a chaotic and unpredictable event, this event was equally tragic, and wild. What made it different is that no God of Magic stood up in short order to clean up the mess.
Talos is absent, so he didn't do it. Cyric would have made it worse had he succeeded in any power grab. Shar certainly had her hands full. I doubt she really realized, in her push for power, how intrinsically linked the Shadow Weave and Arcane Weave were.
Ao, what's he up to, why no God of Magic? Perhaps the divine assassination left nothing to recover, so a new candidate is required. But, we have to remember these are divine timetables, 100 years is nothing to an eternal being. Perhaps the balance some are mentioning requires growing pains? We haven't seen a neutral force for magic in eons, it's been good or evil gods wanting it for themselves for a long time (yeah, Mystra was neutral pre-Midnight, but her Chosen indicate she favored a side). Is Shar blocking an ascension? Perhaps she is, but I would imagine it's not on the divine side, but by looking for the mortal candidates and destroying them before they reach their potential. This may be a matter of perspective though, as Ao could stop her. Perhaps this is paranoia on her part, she thinks (and therefore so does her church--who, through Shade, have a powerful propaganda machine) she's stopping it, but, as I wondered, perhaps it isn't time yet. Events need to flow, magic needs to settle. The stretchmarks have to ease out.
Mortals, why would they elect not to venerate a God of Magic? Let's see...they have a knack for dying...and perhaps the mortals didn't (on a large scale) really grasp what was happening until the plague was full under way...meaning they didn't realize a God had died--resentment may have settled in at the chaos sewn by god striving to control magic. I'm sure some knew, but is that the sort of thing you want to go around preaching? That's divine instability when you're already under the equivalent of the Magic Black Death. When the plague started to subside, and magic was still working, and I imagine most of her devotees were lost to the plague or scarred by it, they haven't got someone to venerate, so they turn (in their polytheistic hearts) to gods who watch over other major aspects of their lives. Until there's a suitable figure that can convince them they're the real deal who are they supposed to turn to? Shar? She helped cause this mess (or so the priests tell us).
Yes we get to tweak this to our liking, but...that's the great thing about this setting, and these stories, the characters engender so much passion. :D
...(you jerk, and they let you on the forums)...
-Psshh, look at some of the other people they've let on these forums, that continue to exist and/or spawn new personas to circumvent methods applied to ban these individuals.
Also, LK, why is 5 minutes less believable than 30 seconds for the Netherese to fall? I don't know the whole story behind them.
-When Mystryl killed herself, there were 5 rounds in-between Mystra's rebirth, where all of Abeir-Toril was a dead magic zone. All of the Netherese enclaves flying in the sky, their mythallars stopped working, and they began to fall. All except for 5 enclaves in High Netheril were destroyed, smashing into the ground. Two were saved through divine intervention (Shade and Selûnarra, removed from the Material Plane by Shar and Selûne, respectively). Given the speed that objects fall at, which is more plausible: That it took 30 seconds for these enclaves to fall to the ground and smash into pieces, or that it took 5 minutes for them to fall to the ground and smash to pieces?
Now, the Arcanists and Theologians tell us that the Goddess of Magic died in all three cases.
-And the omniscient narrator of 3e era sourcebooks, that is incapable of lying, twisting words, and so on and so on. What it said is what you got. When the source says she died (and, it does, in all three cases), she died, no if's, and's, or but's about it.
Snipped awesome quote to save space
See, I like this and it shows that it can be used without tearing your hair out saying it's against cannon.
There may be hope for these boards yet...
Given the speed that objects fall at, which is more plausible: That it took 30 seconds for these enclaves to fall to the ground and smash into pieces, or that it took 5 minutes for them to fall to the ground and smash to pieces?
Why does it have to take 5 minutes to fall? No magic for 5 minutes doesn't mean it has to be falling the entire time, unless I'm missing something here...?
Why does it have to take 5 minutes to fall? No magic for 5 minutes doesn't mean it has to be falling the entire time, unless I'm missing something here...?
-How the Mighty Are Fallen stated that there were 5 rounds- meaning 5 minutess- in which magic did not exist. Magic sustained the mythallars. Without magic to sustain them, they exploded, and the magics keeping the enclaves aloft failed. Thus, gravity kicked in.
-When Mystryl killed herself, there were 5 rounds in-between Mystra's rebirth, where all of Abeir-Toril was a dead magic zone. All of the Netherese enclaves flying in the sky, their mythallars stopped working, and they began to fall. All except for 5 enclaves in High Netheril were destroyed, smashing into the ground. Two were saved through divine intervention (Shade and Selûnarra, removed from the Material Plane by Shar and Selûne, respectively). Given the speed that objects fall at, which is more plausible: That it took 30 seconds for these enclaves to fall to the ground and smash into pieces, or that it took 5 minutes for them to fall to the ground and smash to pieces?
Exactly how big were the enclaves? I know they are floating cities, but if they really large, they would have a lot of wind resistance, so they would fall slower than a large boulder.
Exactly how big were the enclaves? I know they are floating cities, but if they really large, they would have a lot of wind resistance, so they would fall slower than a large boulder.
-The size of each varied. I do not have exact schematics, but the cities were built upon the sheared off tops of mountains that where inverted.
-That said, how much wind resistance is needed to delay the plummet of mountain tops weighing tons for excess of five minutes?
Do we have a timeline of when Azuth was killed?
-The FRCG does not include a comprehensive timeline of the transitory years (1376 DR - 1478 DR) between 3e and 4e.
-How the Mighty Are Fallen stated that there were 5 rounds- meaning 5 minutess- in which magic did not exist. Magic sustained the mythallars. Without magic to sustain them, they exploded, and the magics keeping the enclaves aloft failed. Thus, gravity kicked in.
This does not mean it took five minutes to fall... unless I'm missing your meaning here.
5 minutes of no magic =/= 5 minutes for city's to fall.
-That said, how much wind resistance is needed to delay the plummet of mountain tops weighing tons for excess of five minutes?
A lot of mathwork, some of which I don't know.
It isn't against cannon. Saying it is, is misleading and I'm the only person giving him a truly objective truth here.
Yes, it is a shame that the OP was asking for information relating to posts he has already read but cannot now find on why people think it is against canon.
He doesn't seem to have been asking for people to prove or disprove, just supply information. So surely disputing the basis for people's opinions isn't giving him a truly objective truth, it is denying the very reason for this thread.
This does not mean it took five minutes to fall... unless I'm missing your meaning here.
5 minutes of no magic =/= 5 minutes for city's to fall.
-There were 5 minutes in which the planet was a Dead Magic Zone. The enclaves of High Netheril, we know, fell and hit the ground, in less than 5 rounds. After those five rounds, Mystra was reborn, and magic returned. She was able to save three enclaves. These enclaves were still in midfall when Mystra returned, and "guided" them to safety.
A lot of mathwork, some of which I don't know.
-Ah, I see. Well, without factoring in math and physics (physics which, mind you are different in Realmspace than they are here), I find it a lot more believable that it took the enclaves of High Netheril 30 seconds to fall from the sky to the ground, rather than 5 minutes.
Yes, it is a shame that the OP was asking for information relating to posts he has already read but cannot now find on why people think it is against canon.
He doesn't seem to have been asking for people to prove or disprove, just supply information. So surely disputing the basis for people's opinions isn't giving him a truly objective truth, it is denying the very reason for this thread.
Or it's showing that it isn't truth that the spellplague is against cannon. Which, in a sense, does show this thread isn't needed.
On the other hand, it hasn't been said enough before, so it can be said now and that makes this thread relevant, if only to show it is irrelevant.
Hopefully the OP will see this.
-There were 5 minutes in which the planet was a Dead Magic Zone. The enclaves of High Netheril, we know, fell and hit the ground, in less than 5 rounds. After those five rounds, Mystra was reborn, and magic returned. She was able to save three enclaves. These enclaves were still in midfall when Mystra returned, and "guided" them to safety.
Ahh, well that does cause a problem... hmm, is it 5 rounds in 3.x or 5 rounds in some other edition?
The first time Mystryl died, the Weave was damaged and magic disappeared for a minute or five. The second time when Mystra died, the Weave was further damaged, causing unpredictable magical anomalies around Faerun (and presumably elsewhere). This last time, when Mystra died, the Weave's previous scarring grew so much that it was destroyed, spilling into the Material Plane like a flood and causing the Spellplague.
That would be how I would justify it, if I needed to.
Cyric sticks Mystra diediedie..Dweomerheart goes BOOM..Azuth goes shooting through the planes...lands in Asmodeus' domain...Azuth on a stick anyone? CHOMP...Asmodeus now a Greater Power and a deity.
What is canon? Is it what is released or what we read and determine what is canon for ourselves?
Perhaps this isn't the thread for it but what the heck:
My take only. Perhaps its the loss of both at the same time that made the spell plague so devestating. Since i have always been a fan of Elminster i decided that the reason there is no new gods to replace them is that they are not dead per se but trapped in the mind and body of the old man himself. The reason for not releasing them? Perhaps a fear that their return would cause further damage to his beloved Realms (hence his fear to use magicentirely-he might accidently free them). So his lost thoughts and voices in his head are those of the two gods trapped within, either keeping him company or begging for freedom
-Ah, I see. Well, without factoring in math and physics (physics which, mind you are different in Realmspace than they are here), I find it a lot more believable that it took the enclaves of High Netheril 30 seconds to fall from the sky to the ground, rather than 5 minutes.
So do I. I just back-of-an-enveloped this one using our physics. Dumping wind-resistance (for the time being) it would suggest that the enclaves were over 4km up even if they fell for only 30 seconds. Is this sounding about right?
Or it's showing that it isn't truth that the spellplague is against cannon. Which, in a sense, does show this thread isn't needed.
On the other hand, it hasn't been said enough before, so it can be said now and that makes this thread relevant, if only to show it is irrelevant.
Hopefully the OP will see this.
So your opinion is that this thread's only purpose is to show that in your opinion, it has no purpose. Wow. Nice.
Ahh, well that does cause a problem... hmm, is it 5 rounds in 3.x or 5 rounds in some other edition?
-5 rounds in 2e, where a round is 1 minute, thus making 5 minutes.
What is canon? Is it what is released or what we read and determine what is canon for ourselves?
-Official canon is what is released, and not what you determine in your own games. Things that are determined to be in personal games are canon to those personal games, but not Realmspace 616, the official Forgotten Realms, as published by WotC.
So do I. I just back-of-an-enveloped this one using our physics. Dumping wind-resistance (for the time being) it would suggest that the enclaves were over 4km up even if they fell for only 30 seconds. Is this sounding about right?
-One has to factor in how high an altitude people can exist in without feeling major effects of thinning air. Denver, I know, is a mile above sea level, and most people don't feel much difference in breathing (though, there is a big difference in how far a baseball goes after being hit). What would the effects be two miles up? Three? Four?
-Or, rather, kilometers, for you, Iluvrien. :P
Note - hadn't read all of estrolof's massive post, so didn't realize I was remaking his point.
So your opinion is that this thread's only purpose is to show that in your opinion, it has no purpose. Wow. Nice.
Show me where my opinion isn't truth and I might agree with you...
It would be more accurate to say this threads purpose is showing that the statements saying the Spellplague is against cannon are wrong.
-5 rounds in 2e, where a round is 1 minute, thus making 5 minutes.
-Official canon is what is released, and not what you determine in your own games. Things that are determined to be in personal games are canon to those personal games, but not Realmspace 616, the official Forgotten Realms, as published by WotC.
-One has to factor in how high an altitude people can exist in without feeling major effects of thinning air. Denver, I know, is a mile above sea level, and most people don't feel much difference in breathing (though, there is a big difference in how far a baseball goes after being hit). What would the effects be two miles up? Three? Four?
-Or, rather, kilometers, for you, Iluvrien. :P
-One has to factor in how high an altitude people can exist in without feeling major effects of thinning air. Denver, I know, is a mile above sea level, and most people don't feel much difference in breathing (though, there is a big difference in how far a baseball goes after being hit). What would the effects be two miles up? Three? Four?
-Or, rather, kilometers, for you, Iluvrien. :P
I have been about 10,000 ft above sea level on a local mountain, and while the air begins to thin a bit, there is no discomfort in breathing at that elevation. Also, can't forget, they could have created a shell to hold in breathable air and had it powered by the Mythyllar, so it is possible that a few were higher than 2 or 3 miles, and that those were the ones saved, and the others, being much lower, crashed too quickly. They didn't all go down as one big crash, but probably staggered based on their elevation.
-One has to factor in how high an altitude people can exist in without feeling major effects of thinning air. Denver, I know, is a mile above sea level, and most people don't feel much difference in breathing (though, there is a big difference in how far a baseball goes after being hit). What would the effects be two miles up? Three? Four?
-Or, rather, kilometers, for you, Iluvrien. :P
Hey, I worked this out in metres so KM was the easiest conversion. And you should be happy. I wouldn't be attempting (even very simple) calculus at 3am for most people LK. I might have a stab at a better answer in the morning. The idea intrigues me. (And everest is 8.8km and people need breathing gear there)... this is all based on 30 seconds of fall.. not 5 minutes though!
Show me where my opinion isn't truth and I might agree with you...
It would be more accurate to say this threads purpose is showing that the statements saying the Spellplague is against cannon are wrong.
Isn't that the OP's decision and not yours?
Isn't that the OP's decision and not yours?
It's a discussion on a public board, it is up to each person to think what they want, yes? That said, you still have yet to show I'm not telling the truth.
I'd rather believe in truth then misinformation, but to each his own, I suppose.
It's a discussion on a public board, it is up to each person to think what they want, yes? That said, you still have yet to show I'm not telling the truth.
Privately owned public board but that is by-the-by. My query was made on a single point of courtesy. In the same way that OPs of either pro or anti 4E threads (The "what I like about the 4E FRCG" for example) ask for a lack of hijacking by people with opposing views... is it not a little odd to attempt to debunk the basis of a thread when the OP asked for information using that basis?
In that sense I don't need to "prove you wrong". I am just asking whether challenging and OP's concept for his own thread is entirely... polite.
I'd rather believe in truth then misinformation, but to each his own, I suppose.
Let's skate over the not-so-veiled insult here shall we?
In that sense I don't need to "prove you wrong". I am just asking whether challenging and OP's concept for his own thread is entirely... polite.
So if I start a Hitler was the greatest thread, it would be rude for those who share a different view to post there? While I respect the right of the OP to ask his question, I still feel a need to state my case when I feel his basic assumption, in my opinion, is wrong. If those of us who do so are being rude, or off topic, then report us and let the Wiz-o's sort it out. If my argument was only "that's the way it is so suck it jerk" then that would be rude and a violation of the COC, but disagreeing with a basic premise is why we have these discussions.
If my argument was only "that's the way it is so suck it jerk" then that would be rude and a violation of the COC, but disagreeing with a basic premise is why we have these discussions.
Really? I am getting an education here. I thought that the reason we had this particular kind of discussion was to garner information on the subject in question... not to be told that there was no point asking in the first place.
I must remember that the next time the perceived setting reality vs. faculty setting reality argument comes up. Thank you for your... illuminating response.
Privately owned public board but that is by-the-by. My query was made on a single point of courtesy.
Okay...
In the same way that OPs of either pro or anti 4E threads (The "what I like about the 4E FRCG" for example) ask for a lack of hijacking by people with opposing views... is it not a little odd to attempt to debunk the basis of a thread when the OP asked for information using that basis?
I saw it as the OP trying to see what, exactly, was against cannon and how. Showing the OP that those assumptions are false is not off topic or hijacking.
In that sense I don't need to "prove you wrong". I am just asking whether challenging and OP's concept for his own thread is entirely... polite.
Seeing as you disagree with my statements and I have said they are the truth, proving me wrong is about the only credible thing to do. I'm not challenging the OP, I'm setting the record strait.
Let's skate over the not-so-veiled insult here shall we?
Not trying to insult anyone, just stating I'd rather have the truth over assumed, subjective opinion, everyday of the week.
-Anyway, since it is off-topic, I am going to be starting a new thread about the Netherese Enclaves.
Really? I am getting an education here. I thought that the reason we had this particular kind of discussion was to garner information on the subject in question... not to be told that there was no point asking in the first place.
I must remember that the next time the perceived setting reality vs. faculty setting reality argument comes up. Thank you for your... illuminating response.
Yes, the reason for these discussions is to garner information on a subject, but if the basic assumption of said information is flawed, again IMHO, then it needs to be corrected before it propagates. If the OP was sure that the spellplague went against cannon, then why would he need to ask the question?
I saw it as the OP trying to see what, exactly, was against cannon and how. Showing the OP that those assumptions are false is not off topic or hijacking.
And I saw someone looking for campaign ideas not judgements. objective or otherwise.
Seeing as you disagree with my statements and I have said they are the truth, proving me wrong is about the only credible thing to do. I'm not challenging the OP, I'm setting the record strait.
I don't disagree with your statements about the spellplague being canon or not. I disagree with you posting them in a thread that is, in my own exhaustion contaminated understanding, not about whether the spellplague is canon or not, but what people have thought the lore reasons for it not being considered canon might be. In this way I was not challenging the validity of you view and thus have neither need, intention or desire to expend effort on attempting to disprove them.
Not trying to insult anyone, just stating I'd rather have the truth over assumed, subjective opinion, everyday of the week.
Well done. So would I. Objective reality is, after all, my job.
Yes, the reason for these discussions is to garner information on a subject, but if the basic assumption of said information is flawed, again IMHO, then it needs to be corrected before it propagates. If the OP was sure that the spellplague went against cannon, then why would he need to ask the question?
Hmm, pure interest? As the basis for a "what if" campaign? To outline arguments to refute when presenting his own view of why it doesn't break canon? What he would have to change to make sure his own players didn't challenge the events in his own campaign?
I can think of half a dozen more reasons. None of which end in the propogation of this incorrect idea.
And I saw someone looking for campaign ideas not judgements. objective or otherwise.
Then the Post should be in the Running the Realms Forum, not here. The two were divided just for that reason, and if there it wouldn't have opened itself to a debate on the spellplague.
Then the Post should be in the Running the Realms Forum, not here. The two were divided just for that reason, and if there it wouldn't have opened itself to a debate on the spellplague.
It probably should be, considering what is in and just above the spoiler tag in the OP.
=/=
*I disagree with you posting them in a thread that is, in my own exhaustion contaminated understanding, not about whether the spellplague is canon or not, but what people have thought the lore reasons for it not being considered canon might be.
I think you misunderstand what was meant by the thread. It clearly asks how does it go against cannon. I showed it did not do so... What is your problem?
I would also expect that the specific size of the enclaves themselves may have been a factor - a wide, comparatively flat mountain turned into an enclave might have provided a certain amount of lift, akin to a giant flying wing/disc, if it was in motion at the time of the fall - not enough to keep it airborne, but certainly enough to slow the descent. In contrast, a more needle-like peak, especially if not in motion, would have been more aerodynamically suited to a rapid descent, and would have achieved terminal velocity faster.
Also, regarding the 'water flowing downhill' argument... yes, water doesn't necessarily flow downhill the exact same way each time. However, if water suddenly flowed uphill, or spontaneously separated into hydrogen and oxygen, then combusted, triggering a giant explosion... ...yeah, I'd kinda look askance :P
I think you misunderstand what was meant by the thread. It clearly asks how does it go against cannon. I showed it did not do so... What is your problem?
-And I showed that it did. Point.
-I'm getting out the beating stick, though...
-And I showed that it did. Point.
-I'm getting out the beating stick, though...
And I too, showed that it didn't. Point and match.
I think you misunderstand what was meant by the thread. It clearly asks how does it go against cannon. I showed it did not do so... What is your problem?
I suggest you go by the text of the OP, not the thread title.
I've done a quick search and couldn't find those threads so I'd greatly appreciate it if everyone could post about all the reasons they think the spellplague shouldn't have happened* (or link to earlier posts of theirs). It'd be really cool if you can cite earlier lore to back up your reasoning too ;)
That suggests a further modification to the meaning of the title. Not "it is canon" or "it isn't canon" but "why do you think it is canon" or "why do you think it isn't canon". Hence the mention of "reasons" and "citing lore".
But, we have a wildly different interpretation of the OP. It is up to him to decide what he wants in the topic or not, and our discussion adds nothing to it. I have better things to be doing than arguing a semantic point, so I am out of this one.
And I too, showed that it didn't. Point and match.
-I think you missed the point I was making. That I was able to arrive at a radically different answer using the same exact facts doesn't make this a "Here's my answer, it's the only one" thread like, say, "What race is Drizzt?".
All in all, it doesn't change the fact that the Spellplague isn't against cannon (unless, of course, you add in your own filling to make it so).
-I think you missed the point I was making. That I was able to arrive at a radically different answer using the same exact facts doesn't make this a "Here's my answer, it's the only one" thread like, say, "What race is Drizzt?".
You proved that you could interpret it (with assumptions in place and not considering that different factors had caused different effects) in a very broad fashion.
Fact is, each time she died different things happen, different things caused it and different things fixed it.
So it's more like;
1 = x
2 = y
3 = z
You proved that you could interpret it (with assumptions in place and not considering that different factors had caused different effects) in a very broad fashion.
Fact is, each time she died different things happen, different things caused it and different things fixed it.
So it's more like;
1 = x
2 = y
3 = z
I see it as:
1 = x
2 = y
3= y^3
the first two times she died she was not technically the goddess of magic, Karsus had stripped her power the first time, and she had already given up the majority of her power when she committed suicide by Helm the second time. The second time did have spellplague-like ramifications, but they were mitigated by her reduced status.
You proved that you could interpret it (with assumptions in place and not considering that different factors had caused different effects) in a very broad fashion.
-Circumstance does not matter. If I am stabbed, I die, I have a funeral, am buried, and so on. If I am shot, I die, I have a funeral, am buried, and so on. If I drown, I have a funeral, am buried, and so on. If I am immolated, I have a funeral, am buried, and so on. If I am decapitated, I have a funeral, am buried, and so on. Continue ad nauseum.
Fact is, each time she died different things happen, different things caused it and different things fixed it.
-Untrue. The only time there was a different end result with Mystryl/Mystra's death was the last time, in 1385 DR. The Time of Troubles, I think we can all throw out, due to mitigating factors contaminating our information.
-When dying in the age of Netheril X happened. When dying in 1385 DR Y happened. Y is obviously different from X.
the first two times she died she was not technically the goddess of magic, Karsus had stripped her power the first time...
-She was indeed deity of magic. Both existed simultaneously. Black became white with shades of gray.
-Untrue. The only time there was a different end result with Mystryl/Mystra's death was the last time, in 1385 DR.
May I draw your attention to a place called the Helmlands...
Anyways those that think it goes against canon can find just as many arguements as those that say it is. It leads to nothing more then an endless duel of words that go nowhere fast,
Anyways those that think it goes against canon can find just as many arguements as those that say it is. It leads to nothing more then an endless duel of words that go nowhere fast,
Welcome to the boards... That's par for the course around here.
May I draw your attention to a place called the Helmlands...
-The very next sentence that you conveniently did not include stated "The Time of Troubles, I think we can all throw out, due to mitigating factors contaminating our information".
Anyways those that think it goes against canon can find just as many arguements as those that say it is. It leads to nothing more then an endless duel of words that go nowhere fast,
-Debate = Good. I'm having fun.
-The very next sentence that you conveniently did not include stated "The Time of Troubles, I think we can all throw out, due to mitigating factors contaminating our information".
Yes, mitigating factors, the weave was in flux, due to the absence of Mystra's caretaking of the weave, so the overall affect was just less pronounced until her death. The wild magic of the Time of Troubles was not because of the gods walking the realms, but because no one was minding the weave.
Yes, mitigating factors, the weave was in flux, due to the absence of Mystra's caretaking of the weave, so the overall affect was just less pronounced until her death. The wild magic of the Time of Troubles was not because of the gods walking the realms, but because no one was minding the weave.
-The entire premise is, of course, screwed up when the assertion is made that Mystra is the Weave incarnate. The Weave could not exist without Mystra "being in the heavens". Another knock on the Time of Troubles.
First time, she 'killed' herself to save the weave and then reformed into a new GoM. Effect; magic stopped and kicked back in when she did.
Second time, she was killed, distributed some of her power among the chosen and finally was remade from a mortal. Effect; chaos, dead and wild magic and almost.... like the spellplague, but contained (my thoughts on this is that she had the sense to try and avert it, unlike Midnight).
Third time's a charm, she's killed in her home plane and (for reasons we don't know) was not able to distribute her power or reform. Effect; the high end effects of a massive wild magic Strom, much like the ToT, but to a greater extent.
It seems to fit just fine...
LK, I'm not talking about dying... I'm saying each time she died, different things happened to the world and different things 'fixed' what went wrong.
-Right. Throwing out the Time of Troubles, for the aforementioned reasons, the same situation should have unfolded when Mystra was killed in 1385 DR as it did when Mystryl committed suicide. That the same situation did not unfold demonstrates that the event in 1385 DR did not follow precedence.
[a thread that is about] what people have thought the lore reasons for it not being considered canon might be.
Yup
That's the point of the thread. Some people have put a lot of thought into the topic so I was hoping to garner their thoughts for my campaign in an attempt to come up with an interesting campaign Show
As KrownHunter mentioned the whole event has been left pretty vague and will most likely never be explained in detail. Thus by reading other people's concerns and problems with the official "it happened cause Mystra died" explanation, I think we can add some depth to that rather vague cause
-Right. Throwing out the Time of Troubles, for the aforementioned reasons, the same situation should have unfolded when Mystra was killed in 1385 DR as it did when Mystryl committed suicide. That the same situation did not unfold demonstrates that the event in 1385 DR did not follow precedence.
Picking it apart to prove a point doesn't make it true. The ToT did happen, it changed things (not the least of which the fact that the new GoM was a mortal and didn't have eons of XP under her belt). She 'died' three times, in 3 different ways and three different reactions happened because of them.
(not the least of which the fact that the new GoM was a mortal and didn't have eons of XP under her belt).
-Mystra I was a mortal. A less-than-intelligent farmgirl.
She 'died' three times, in 3 different ways and three different reactions happened because of them.
-Again, throwing out the ToT, because our data is contaminated, not having her third death follow the same results as her first death is not following what came before, which is the point of this.
-Mystra I was a mortal. A less-than-intelligent farmgirl.
So this explains why she couldn't repeat what she did the first time... Nice, and fits better then I'd thought.
-Again, throwing out the ToT, because our data is contaminated, not having her third death follow the same results as her first death is not following what came before, which is the point of this.
Throwing out the ToT? Why? How is it 'contaminated'? I could say the sky is dark at night and blue at day, just skip sunset and sunup and I'll be right....
Here is the Wikipedia entry with cited references. Her death was a minor spellplague in that regard, and the effects make sense if you compare the two.
Just a thought on it:
The first time Mystryl died, the Weave was damaged and magic disappeared for a minute or five. The second time when Mystra died, the Weave was further damaged, causing unpredictable magical anomalies around Faerun (and presumably elsewhere). This last time, when Mystra died, the Weave's previous scarring grew so much that it was destroyed, spilling into the Material Plane like a flood and causing the Spellplague.
That would be how I would justify it, if I needed to.
I felt this post was important enough to repeat.
Furthermore, I should note, that just becomes something happened twice before does not mean that the third time the exact same thing will happen. Each time you break the same bone, the more trouble you will have properly setting that bone so that it causes you no further problems after it heals. Each time you re-ink a tattoo it hurts more and more. Perhaps the spellplague happened not because Mystara was killed, but because she was killed three times. Perhaps Ao didn't rise a new Mystara because he realized that if one of the gods managed to kill her a fourth time the world would not be able to survive the death at all.
If one wants to come up with a solution to a problem whose base nature is "magic," one needs only use their imagination a little bit.
OK LK - I will concede that she and the weave are one, but the issues in the ToT were still a result of her inability to regulate the weave and not from AO forcing the gods onto Faerun. The only direct result of that was clerics not being able to gain higher level spells.
We don't know how high they were flying. I could imagine it taking five minutes to fall 30,000 feet.
But there was clearly a problem with the way 2e thought about time in rounds, which was why 3e changed a round from one minute to six seconds. A lot of 2e game mechanics don't make that much sense if you think about a round as a whole minute in legnth. How the Mighty came out in the late 1990s, not long before 3E, and epitomizes this temporal fuzziness.
So this explains why she couldn't repeat what she did the first time... Nice, and fits better then I'd thought.
-This has no influence on anything, asides for the fact that Mystra was an ascended mortal.
Throwing out the ToT? Why? How is it 'contaminated'? I could say the sky is dark at night and blue at day, just skip sunset and sunup and I'll be right....
-We are having an intellectual debate. As such, we need to analyze the evidence we have scientifically. With the Time of Troubles, our data set on Mystra and the effects of her death on the world are contaminated, because nature was not working normally/properly to begin with. Thus, we need to discount it. As a researcher, would you use an item that was manhandled improperly to make conclusive results about DNA with? No, no you would not.
LK - I believe that the fallacy you fall into is that Mystra = the Weave. In fact her creation and the weave were simultaneous (Magic of Faerun). She regulated and was bound to the weave, but it was not an aspect of her.
-According to well-established mythology and Realmslore, Mystra/Mystryl was the Weave incarnate (or uncarnate).
The ToT magic issues were caused by her inability to regulate the weave, not as a direct response to AO forcing the gods into avatar form in the Realms.
-The issues arising during the Time of Troubles stem from the fact that the Weave continued to exist (as evidenced by magic being possible), but didn't exist at the same time (as evidenced by Mystra being mortal, and not the deity of magic). A massive disconnect happened there.
Looking at this for what it is, I'm sure we all can find how this is easy to integrate and understand within the realm of fictional fantasy and magic... right?
This isn't science, it isn't even real... we can't use RL explanations for fictional magic, least we have no cannon which could be excepted...
Looking at this for what it is, I'm sure we all can find how this is easy to integrate and understand within the realm of fictional fantasy and magic... right?
-Doesn't matter if it's real life or not. Scientific techniques to analyze data and data sets (ie, identification, isolation, categorization, etc.) still apply. They apply to any and all facets of life. That's why they're used. ;)
-Doesn't matter if it's real life or not. Scientific techniques to analyze data and data sets (ie, identification, isolation, categorization, etc.) still apply. They apply to any and all facets of life. That's why they're used. ;)
Yes, but not using all the data and ignoring the after effects of such things is folly... something you should know well...
ToT changed things, was the precursor of the Spellplague and should not be tossed aside. Add to that that the third time she died (being killed, not killing herself) in her realm and was not in a position to distribute her power and... well, it makes more sense then saying it is impossible.
To many factors are unknown to seclude any evidence from this and, I bet, if you tried, you'd see it fits just fine.
The way it stated, the Weave would still be there if Shar wouldn't have tried to take control of it. I see it like 2 jars and she pick up the Weave jar and miss her balance check DC by 10 for both jars(weave & shadow) so they fall and break.
the problem can be fix i guess by recreating a pool like. Maybe by mortals and alot of power or straight by another god that want to take care of it.
Anyone who's ever read comics knows how awful these global multipart crossover ideas are, and here's why.
The more cosmic you get, the more holes there are. Every time someone decides to fix things with a hammer instead of a scalpel, this happens.
One day, someone will notice, and this will stop. Unfortunately, until then, gaming supplements and comic books will look like they're written by eight year olds.
Yes, but not using all the data and ignoring the after effects of such things is folly... something you should know well...
-Not when the data is contaminated, as is on the Time of Troubles is. Part of scientific analysis is picking apart and removing that data that is contaminated. Elsewise, you are given skewed results.
-Not when the data is contaminated, as is on the Time of Troubles is. Part of scientific analysis is picking apart and removing that data that is contaminated. Elsewise, you are given skewed results.
You think it's contaminated, I think it fills in needed blanks and makes sense.
Looking at it my way shows it works fine. Looking your way causes problems.... I wonder which way makes more sense?
Looking at it my way shows it works fine. Looking your way causes problems.... I wonder which way makes more sense?
-Mine, because you hypothesizes are using contaminated data, and, as such, are yielding contaminated conclusions.
-Mine, because you hypothesizes are using contaminated data, and, as such, are yielding contaminated conclusions.
Why is it contaminated? It demonstrates what happens when there is no one managing the weave. Are you discounting it as valid evidence because it proves your hypothesis wrong? We are talking about an incredibly rare event in history, it is very similar to what happened during the spellplague, so I see it as valid evidence. Show your evidence that it is contaminated.
Why is it contaminated? It demonstrates what happens when there is no one managing the weave. Are you discounting it as valid evidence because it proves your hypothesis wrong? We are talking about an incredibly rare event in history, it is very similar to what happened during the spellplague, so I see it as valid evidence. Show your evidence that it is contaminated.
-The Death of Mystra during this time happened during a time when the world was under a cloud of chaos. Mystra's death was coupled with an explosion of Dead/Wild magic was just as likely as fish raining down from clouds, and queen bees serving worker bees. As such, the end result of her death during this time cannot be used as evidence to demonstrate what happens when Mystra dies because X was as likely to happen as Y, as Z, as A, B, or C, because of ground conditions.
Have previous contingency plans of Mystra been stopped? No.
Has Shar shown the ability before to block the ascension of any other god? No. Has any deity shown that ability? No.
Has Cyric shown the mental capability to tie his shoelaces before, let alone kill the most powerful Goddess in Toril on her home plane? No.
There you go. That's why it goes against all previous canon.
And the effects of the ToT was still being felt in FR... it and it's effects are the precursor of the spellplague, the FRCG says as much and trying to say it doesn't count just to prove a point is folly and very one sided...
-The FRCG was written with 4e in mind.
That chaos was caused directly by Mystra not tending to the weave, thus proves what happened in the spellplague was just a larger scale version of that aspect of the ToT. Unless you are saying that either AO, or the presence of all the gods in Avatar form wandering the realms were responsible for the chaos.
-The presence of Ao forcing all deities, including Mystra, into avatar form is what caused the chaos, yes.
Have previous deaths of Mystra brought about a Spellplague, or similar levels of destruction? No.
Have previous contingency plans of Mystra been stopped? No.
Has Shar shown the ability before to block the ascension of any other god? No. Has any deity shown that ability? No.
Has Cyric shown the mental capability to tie his shoelaces before, let alone kill the most powerful Goddess in Toril on her home plane? No.
There you go. That's why it goes against all previous canon.
If things happened like this, we'd have no cars, computers, phones, WMD's, lightbulbs,....
Not really an avenue I'd like to go down, myself.
If things happened like this, we'd have no cars, computers, phones, WMD's, lightbulbs,....
Not really an avenue I'd like to go down, myself.
Uh.. huh.
That makes no sense, kiddo.
Most of the posters arguing about the topic in this thread have agreed in other threads that the FRCG is light on actual information. This is especially true in the magic section and the Historical sense.
Also consider tha fact that Gnomes and Half orcs are not discussed in the FRCG and that Gnomes are now Fey. This seems to be a deviation from canon.
Given the bad writing, large information gaps, other canon deviations can this debate really be put to rest based on the information given in the FRCG?
Cheers!
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
Uh.. huh.
That makes no sense, kiddo.
...If you always go by what's been done before, instead of what could be, we'd never get anywhere. Simple, yes? Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it never will.
This is especially true when different factors are in place then when similar things have happened before. It isn't rocket science, but I am sorry if I made it seem confusing.
Have previous deaths of Mystra brought about a Spellplague, or similar levels of destruction? No.
Have previous contingency plans of Mystra been stopped? No.
Has Shar shown the ability before to block the ascension of any other god? No. Has any deity shown that ability? No.
Has Cyric shown the mental capability to tie his shoelaces before, let alone kill the most powerful Goddess in Toril on her home plane? No.
There you go. That's why it goes against all previous canon.
Have previous deaths of Mystra... Yes, Helmlands (eerily similiar to what we see in plaguelands).
Has Cyric... Yes, he killed Bhaal, and disrupted the affair between Mystra and Kelemvor, also has slain at least 3 other lesser gods. Just because a few authors portray him as incompetent doesn't make him so.
So two of your statements are false. And only one of those pertains to the question of the effects of the death of Mystra.
Mystra still has/had mortal failings, while Shar was a deity in full command of her abilities, and thousands of years of experience, perhaps Mystra didn't stop and consider that a plan against her might just work, after all AO would stop it...
-The presence of Ao forcing all deities, including Mystra, into avatar form is what caused the chaos, yes.
From your point of view...
The version I read, and in my research nothing has contradicted it, is that the Weave required constant attention, and when Mystra was forced to take avatar form, it became unstable. The only provable direct link to the gods being forced to Faerun was the loss of cleric spells above 3rd level. The sources are unclear on the source of the magical and physical chaos, only saying that the chaos started when the gods were cast down. So it could be taken either way, but i maintain that the similarities are too strong to be dismissed. And even if the chaos was caused by the presence of the gods, it still falls within cannon that any major activity among the gods has massive repercussions on Faerun.
The version I read, and in my research nothing has contradicted it, is that the Weave required constant attention, and when Mystra was forced to take avatar form, it became unstable.
-Right, this is right. Now, being as that Mystra is the Weave incarnate, the Weave technically should not have been able to exist without Mystra as a deity. The two are synonymous. Now, be that as it may, it's clear that the Weave continued to exist during the Time of Troubles. Fine. When Mystra's mortal avatar was killed by Helm, certain things happened. Explosions and Dead Magic Zones and Wild Magic Zones being two of the consequences. Now, here's the part I keep harping on: This end result is because of a world already gone awry. This isn't anything that should have been expected, or anticipated. The chaos of the Weave (which presumably was being held up by Ao for the time of the Time of Troubles) was what resulted in Mystra's mortal avatar's death causing certain things to happen.
-When you're performing an experiment, you need to either remove, or be aware of ambivalent factors (can't think of the right word) that can or has had an impact on your data. The Time of Troubles, we can't remove it's impact on the magical insanity that it had on Mystra's mortal avatar's death. Thus, we have to ignore it, or, at best, give any results that we have an asterisk, as there were extreme circumstances present.
You not being willing to accept it as evidence doesn't mean everyone should ignore the obvious connection between the two.
At the least, we have to opinions about what, why and how things take place. Mine makes sense and goes with cannon, yours makes sense and goes against cannon.
Let everyone else choose for themselves, I suppose.
But when that data is in direct correlation with what happens again, it is not only relevant, but expected to be used to see the connection.
You not being willing to accept it as evidence doesn't mean everyone should ignore the obvious connection between the two.
-That's where the fault lies! The new data is in direct correlation with this particular event, but it should not, because this particular event unfolded only because of very explicit set of circumstances arose, whereas, in the new set of data, this very explicit set of circumstances was not present.
-That's where the fault lies! The new data is in direct correlation with this particular event, but it should not, because this particular event unfolded only because of very explicit set of circumstances arose, whereas, in the new set of data, this very explicit set of circumstances was not present.
and the differing factors between 1 & 3 should be ignored?
and the differing factors between 1 & 3 should be ignored?
-In situation 1 and situation 3, Mystryl/Mystra is being dying in her home plane, where the rest of the world is not in fluctuation, due to outside interference.
.
Ok, we removed the variables that were present during the ToT (magical and physical chaos) and got similar results in the main test (the death of Mystra).
-It's impossible to isolate and separate the two, as the magical chaos during the Time of Troubles dictated the circumstances and results of Mystra's death.
Have previous deaths of Mystra... Yes, Helmlands (eerily similiar to what we see in plaguelands).
Has Cyric... Yes, he killed Bhaal, and disrupted the affair between Mystra and Kelemvor, also has slain at least 3 other lesser gods. Just because a few authors portray him as incompetent doesn't make him so.
So two of your statements are false. And only one of those pertains to the question of the effects of the death of Mystra.
Mystra still has/had mortal failings, while Shar was a deity in full command of her abilities, and thousands of years of experience, perhaps Mystra didn't stop and consider that a plan against her might just work, after all AO would stop it...
Mystra's previous deaths have not, for instance, destroyed planes, gods, most of the wizards on Toril etc. They have been destructive, yes, but not 'Spellplague' level. And its not just a few authors portraying Cyric as incompetent. Its a fact of Canon that he was driven mad by his own book! So they aren't false, dear.
...If you always go by what's been done before, instead of what could be, we'd never get anywhere. Simple, yes? Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it never will.
This is especially true when different factors are in place then when similar things have happened before. It isn't rocket science, but I am sorry if I made it seem confusing.
Strawman argument, kiddo. This question is why the Spellplague goes against previous canon. The inventions you listed previous built upon thousands upon thousands of years of scientific study, invention and research. They didn't come about in opposition to previous study, they built upon it.
Mystra's previous deaths have not, for instance, destroyed planes, gods, most of the wizards on Toril etc. They have been destructive, yes, but not 'Spellplague' level. And its not just a few authors portraying Cyric as incompetent. Its a fact of Canon that he was driven mad by his own book! So they aren't false, dear.
The previous incarnations of Mystra weren't goddesses when they died either. The first had her power stolen, the second had transferred the majority of it away. Only the third was a full greater god when she died. So the effects were magnified massively.
And yes his book drove him insane, but;
A. he was cured, and
B. prior to reading the book he showed remarkable ability and talent (or several gods were completely incompetent, since he got them on their own plane). (also note that Leira - goddess of illusion, was among them, which gives him some claim to that aspect of magic).
The designers said so, that's why. That is what the Spellplague has going for it. It gives the pro-Spellplague side of the argument the most significant support and credibility possible.
Just like when the designers repeated bashed the old Realms just months ago, saying how overpowered NPCs prevented PCs for being heroic, or the gods were too numerous and confusing, or all the good stories of the Realms had already played out. Regardless of what some fans think or an individual designer actually believes, whatever the designers as a group officially publish becomes reality.
The Spellplague does not go against previous trends and official lore. Why?
The designers said so, that's why. That is what the Spellplague has going for it. It gives the pro-Spellplague side of the argument the most significant support and credibility possible.
Just like when the designers repeated bashed the old Realms just months ago, saying how overpowered NPCs prevented PCs for being heroic, or the gods were too numerous and confusing, or all the good stories of the Realms had already played out. Regardless of what some fans think or an individual designer actually believes, whatever the designers as a group officially publish becomes reality.
This is true, to a point. It doesn't change what you want to use in your game. I didn't care for the bashing myself. I do, however, understand why it was done.
Devs aside, it can fit or not fit based on what we know and what we assume. I don't go around throwing someone elses weight into my side. Put it out here and let people decide for themselves.
Or don't, your choice.
It doesn't matter if you don't throw the designer's weight around, it's already thrown for you by default if you defend the pro-side. It's just something that simply is. You don't have to put it out there, it was there before you learned enough about 4E FR to make the decision to like it.
Our personal games don't matter in such discussions, unless you're a designer.
The previous incarnations of Mystra weren't goddesses when they died either. The first had her power stolen, the second had transferred the majority of it away. Only the third was a full greater god when she died. So the effects were magnified massively.
I find Naex's position here the most plausible explanation presented thus far.
I find Naex's position here the most plausible explanation presented thus far.
You didn't buy the t-shirt I made for you, so your vote don't count!!!
Back with you! By the great god Bejebuz, back to the Abyss!
I find Naex's position here the most plausible explanation presented thus far.
Would an "In your face LK" be ok here.
The idea that the Spellplague isn't cannon is actually very silly since it is officially cannon. But, for the sake of healthy debate, here is how I see it:
1. There is a variable that does make this demise of Mystra very different than the first two times, and that is the destruction of Dweomerheart. The first time Mystra died it survived her brief death and then the second time Dweomerheart was sustained by AO. Perhpas Dweaomerheart was the lynch pin of the Weave, all threads trailing back to it like a great loom from where Mystra wove the tapestry of magic. With its destruction so did the bonds of magic come undone.
2. Also there is the variable of time. The first time magic was dead for only 5 minutes, perhaps the Spellplague took longer to develop than 5 minutes. Maybe magic went dead for 10 mintues then BOOM, Spellplague.
3. The final variable we don't know about is what Shar and Cyric did or were doing when they snook into Dweomerheart. Maybe Shar did something hoping reality would destroy itself when Mystra died, fulfilling her greatest wish to return to oblivion.
4. As for Shar blocking the ascension of a new god of magic, we don't know A) how it is done or B) how shes blocking it. AO has th final authority, true, bbut what if hes not involved in the selection of a new god of magic and simply bestows the power upon a peer the other gods find worthy. In this case Shar could easily demand that she be the goddess of magic or whisper into naive ears that they should be god of magic. Or maybe its a case of divine philabusting, gods debating endlessly while Shar plays the room like a fiddle making sure no real headway gets done.
Saying "Shar can't block the selection of a new god, not with AO in charge" is like saying "A senator can't block a new bill, not with the president around". Of course he can, by never letting the process continue past the point of his control (for example: keeping it in comittees forever, sueing over mistakes in the language, filing appeals to the supreme court, etc).
Of course if AO wants to select a new god of magic, then it will be done, but for now hes content to let it continue as it has for the past 100 years. Maybe hes just waiting for the right god of magic to be ready for his/her role in the cosmos, he is the patient sort after all.
Hey, I just had a great idea... ELMINSTER FOR GoM, 08'!!!!!!!!!!!!! Whos with me?!
just to little nitpicks..
1. The time magic was gone is being debated on another thread
(5 rounds = 5 minutes by 2e PH, 50 - 75 seconds by Player's Options: Combat and Tactics)
2. Elminster turned down the GoM job at the end of Time of Troubles. He has no desire for it.
Would an "In your face LK" be ok here.
Is that ever ok--or not?
Besides, its an unfair advantage. Brian writes for WotC but never sticks around to defend. LK could write for WotC but sticks around to offend.
Who's bound to win?
Is that ever ok--or not?
Besides, its an unfair advantage. Brian writes for WotC but never sticks around to defend. LK could write for WotC but sticks around to offend.
Who's bound to win?
Mine might be a borderline violation of CoC. But it was nice to have a staffer, and one still respected here, by most anyway, agreeing with me. And I can win against LK, I have no life and my main job is here in front of my computer, so I have all sorts of time to research and argue. Not that it's about winning, but still...
Hey, I just had a great idea... ELMINSTER FOR GoM, 08'!!!!!!!!!!!!! Whos with me?!
1) Karsus casts his 12th level spell and targets Mystyl and begins to drain her powers.
2) The drain of Mystryls power robs her of the ability to maintain the Weave. Since Karsus can not handle the sudden influx of knowledge and power, the Weave begins to surge and fluxuate.
3) Before her powers are completely drained, Mystryl sacrifices herself, which severed the link between herself and Karsus. This also caused all magic to briefly cease functioning. Reincarnating herself as Mystra she saved 3 cities and recreated the weave of magic.
Now, if Mystryl was no longer the deity of magic, how do you explain her ability to reincarnate and almost instantly recreate the weave of magic? Only the goddess of magic could do that. Mystra was Mystryl. Therefore, I believe the incident with Karsus could be viewed as a vampiric or enervating effect. He never took all her power; she was still deity enough to sacrifice/transfer her powers and knowledge/sever her connection to Karsus/recreate the Weave. I think what she did..the Mystryl to Mystra is the same reincarnating situation that occurred when Amaunator became Lathander.
Thanks for reading this post.
Let's operate under your assumption that while still a deity, she was drained so her boom was more of a small pop. Even so, when she died magic ceased to exist it didn't detonate. Also, let's compare the powers of Mystryl and Mystra.
Mystryl: Magic, spells, the weave, wizards, spellcasters, energy, creativity, knowledge, invention, song, time, and spring.
Mystra: Magic, spells, and the weave.
As you can see, even weakened Mystryl had the powers of 8 other deities in addition to the power of Mystra (Oghma, Millil, Azuth, Gond, etc.). So, if her weave only surged and then ceased to exist, Mystra's weave would have been significantly less powerful and less likely to nuke the planes and more likely to sputter and die. After all, we also must take into consideration that Shar had taken quite a few worshippers from Mystra and the sourcebooks stated that her worship had been declining.
Of course there are more sides to the issue, but I think I can make a plausible point for why the spellplague at least should have had a lesser impact than it did.
As I said before I'd like to thank those who actually posted in line with the purpose of this thread. Your posts helped.
For those who I offended or angered I apologise. I quite enjoy what I've read of 4e FRCG, the point of this thread was to add depth to a particular event (Spellplague) and explore the whole event in a much deeper manner in my campaign.
The Spellplague does not go against previous trends and official lore. Why?
The designers said so, that's why. That is what the Spellplague has going for it. It gives the pro-Spellplague side of the argument the most significant support and credibility possible.
-The "they" wanted to, they could say that Brucus Cordellius was the man who founded Netheril. This doesn't change the fact that, regardless of what the new information says, it clashes and contrasts with the old information, and is invalidated because it does not fit with the established continuity of the setting.
Would an "In your face LK" be ok here.
-Most certainly not, no.
And I can win against LK, I have no life and my main job is here in front of my computer, so I have all sorts of time to research and argue. Not that it's about winning, but still...
-While LK does not have all of that time, and stuff to do, you cannot win. Nobody wins. Ask JD, nobody wins.
You know I'm not going to bother reading this thread anymore. If anyone wants to post their thoughts on the matter as stated in my original post without engaging in a 5-page argument then you're welcome to PM me.
As I said before I'd like to thank those who actually posted in line with the purpose of this thread. Your posts helped.
For those who I offended or angered I apologise. I quite enjoy what I've read of 4e FRCG, the point of this thread was to add depth to a particular event (Spellplague) and explore the whole event in a much deeper manner in my campaign.
I apologize for being one of those who hi-jacked your thread, but I felt what you wanted was factually incorrect, so I put in my two cents.
I am still waiting to see how the the Mystra thing plays out for like Jean Grey the ol girl always seems to make a come back.
-I highly doubt that Mystra is going to come back. She was cited as one of the main perceived problems that existed beforehand, so returning her to the setting does nothing but adding the perceived problem baggage she carried with her to the setting.
I don't think anyone has mentioned the merging of the shadow weave and the weave. Sorry if someone did. Perhaps Mystra's death did not actually start the spellplague as popular belief states, but setup a situation making it possible. The weave was fluctuating without someone to control it. Then Shar steps in to try and hold both the weave and shadow weave at once. It would be like matter hitting antimatter. The resulting chain reaction of the two combining set off the spell plague. Mystra's death merely made it possible. Perhaps Shar is really more to blame for the spell plague than Cyric who merely was the instrument in her grab for power. Someone to take the blame with the other gods allowing her to cavort around free.
I would find it amusing that the spellplague was set of by El finally going completely bonkers and not necessarily cyric killing mystra (which by any stretch of the imagination could never actually take place in the manner described by the GHotR.)
"Many threads were pulled when Mystra died. Most accept the goddess of magic's death touched off already unsteady zones of wild magic. But, in the past when the previous goddess of magic perished, no Spellplague resulted. I believe other factors contributed to the virulence of what finally occurred. I believe the Traitor's escape, timed uncannily close to Mystra's murder, was an additional constituent that co-generated the Spellplague."
-And, with that...
* Or girl. Or "it".
Bruce has some antidiluvian trick up his sleeve...
Would anyone be so kind to inform me what "Canon" is.
And you have the word 'Gun' in your screename?
Now, that device is very much like a WotC designer - its main purpose is to blow things up and harm people's sensibilities. :P
-I would like to present to the jury, a quote from Plague of Spells. Page 117, and I quote:
"Many threads were pulled when Mystra died. Most accept the goddess of magic's death touched off already unsteady zones of wild magic. But, in the past when the previous goddess of magic perished, no Spellplague resulted. I believe other factors contributed to the virulence of what finally occurred. I believe the Traitor's escape, timed uncannily close to Mystra's murder, was an additional constituent that co-generated the Spellplague."
-And, with that...
-:coolcthul dawn! :P
18DELTA (CHOSEN OF THE ONE WHO GAVE YOU THE SPELLPLAGUE) ;)
It's not against canon as the cirumstances of Mystra's death is different than the first two:
1st time: Planned 'suicide' so the Weave can be held stable for the transition to a new goddes.
2nd time: Ao cast down all the gods and while magic did go wonky and create in some areas a spellplague type effect it can be assumed Ao kept the weave intact knowing there was no goddess to do it herself.
3rd time: Ao and Mystra caught off guard. Shar overreached her power and couldn't grasp the Weave, probably due to the violence of Mystra's death sending a power surge through it. Other contributing factors turned an initial explosion of raw Weave into the Spellplague.
Those factors in no particular order of importance:
- Residual wild magic areas getting a new influx of energies.
- High magic use areas hit first/hardest (Halruaa) possibly setting off chain reactions
- Abier's 'proximity' at the time and the initial explosion causing a weakening of the boundary and causing the two planets to overlap/merge
- Mystra's domain collapsed (no record of that happening before) causing instability in the Outer Planes
- Asmodeus' power grab to godhood and 'throwing' the Abyss into the Inner Planes
- The formation of the Elemental Chaos and shifting of the Inner Planes, likely causing eruptions of elemental energies on Toril at the same time as the Weave explosions
- The traitor's release. Though this might be like Abier and not an event isolated from Mystra's death but tied to the 'shaking up' of the Weave and magic at the time of her death allowing the release.
All combined these could create a Spellplague that we saw. It wasn't just Mystra's death but the result of multiple factors and events in close succession that turned what might have just been a singular power blast of raw Weave into something that tore the Weave and Shadow Weave apart and wreaked havoc on Toril.
Also some of the events might have caused their own changes on Toril but because they occured during (or contributed to) the Spellplague those changes are lumped in as being part of the Spellplague (think Earthmotes which in core 4e are explained as areas of elemental energies seeping into the World from the Elemental Chaos).
1st time: Planned 'suicide' so the Weave can be held stable for the transition to a new goddes.
-This is incorrect, in that it was far from planned. Rather, it was more like 'having a plan, in case of emergency'. This would be no different "today", however: If Mystryl, 'then', needed to have a "plan in case of emergency", so, too, would Mystra.
-This is incorrect, in that it was far from planned. Rather, it was more like 'having a plan, in case of emergency'. This would be no different "today", however: If Mystryl, 'then', needed to have a "plan in case of emergency", so, too, would Mystra.
Well it wasn't a perfect plan after all. Magic did stop working for 5 minutes after all (a long time for a diety). But it didn't fall apart entirely which means that Mystryl had at least enoough time to make sure it wouldn't be a true catastrophe before her sacrifice and might even have been intentional to punish the Netherese by cancelling all magic. It has to be assumed Mystra didn't have enough time to even do that. Also as I stated later I think the Spellplague became the disaster it was because of events concurrin with or resulting from her death and not exclusively because of her death.
-I like the guy*. He seems pretty cool.
* Or girl. Or "it".
Why all the traitors have to be "pretty cool"?
Well it wasn't a perfect plan after all. Magic did stop working for 5 minutes after all (a long time for a diety).
-This number varies based on how second edition rules you use. Five minutes is all together too long a time- this would mean that the Netherese enclaves that survived the fall were high enough to be able to still be in the air after five minutes of falling. The 30 second you get when you use a second edition variant rules book works much better, and conforms with 3e.
But it didn't fall apart entirely which means that Mystryl had at least enoough time to make sure it wouldn't be a true catastrophe before her sacrifice and might even have been intentional to punish the Netherese by cancelling all magic.
-It did. Mystryl/Mystra was/is the Weave. When she lives, the Weave exists. When she does not, the Weave does not. Mystryl/Mystra ceased to exist for 30 seconds, between when Mystryl sacrificed herself and when Mystra was "reborn". The Weave ceased to exist for 30 seconds between when Mystryl sacrificed herself and when Mystra was "reborn".
It has to be assumed Mystra didn't have enough time to even do that.
-That is an inconclusive result to arrive at. Mystryl, without planning, was able to instantly begin the rebirth of the Weave and the station of the deity of magic. Likewise, Mystra, too, should have been able to do the same thing.
Why all the traitors have to be "pretty cool"?
-No one would care if they were betraying others if they weren't?
-Mind you, we do not know anything about The Traitor. I find the concept an interesting one. The character might not be.
There is your new god of magic.
The traitor must be Karsus, who finally escaped from the limbo between life and death into divinity.
There is your new god of magic.
-Please, no.
Either that or Shar only thinks she is blocking AO and there is already a new Godess of Magic walking the Planes, who for the time being is bidding her time and waiting until the mortal world's memory of the Spell Plague have faded before reveiling herself and the truth is that Fourth Edition Magic is in fact derived from a new and improved weave and is not in fact the raw magic that she has all of the sages fooled into believing.
After all, one heavyhanded retcon deserves another. *winks*
Ao (finally) realized that a single, all-powerful goddess (or god) of magic would always be a target for other gods, and he just got sick and tired of having to promote a new one every so often, or to deal with all the deific conflicts it causes.
Shar didn't do anything to block Mystra's return - she only wants everyone to think she did.
From the first day I picked up the Old Grey Box the Realms was always a High Magic world and Mystra was the personification of that. It just made sense to have a goddess of magic just like there should be gods of the sun and the moon. Anyways, I really hope that WoTc has some plan to eventually bring Mystra back, but maybe in a diminished form because right now, the Realms just don't feel like the Realms anymore.
Sorry if I went off topic, all this talk of Mystra made me think how unnecessarily heavy handed these changes were....it made me sad.
...how unnecessarily heavy handed these changes were...
Preachin' to the choir.
Only time will tell if it was worth it to them (WotC, I mean).
Anyways, I really hope that WoTc has some plan to eventually bring Mystra back, but maybe in a diminished form because right now, the Realms just don't feel like the Realms anymore.
-The reason for her death was to reach out to the 'I-don't-like-Mystra-therefore-I-don't-like-the-Forgotten-Realms' demographic. To "get them" by killing Mystra, and then bring Mystra back would "lose them".
The traitor must be Karsus, who finally escaped from the limbo between life and death into divinity.
There is your new god of magic.
Works for me. A being who hates Mystra and blames her for turning him into the Karse Stone. He has been driven insane after tasted godhood and having it taken away from him by that *****. He developed the Shadow Weave so he could have other gods use it against Mystra. He formulated a plan where he would use Shar and Cyric to do his dirty work for him and end the life of the being he loathed for so long. How does he do all this? Who knows, he just does until I need him to appear in my campaign and take over a few floating cities of New Netheril. ;)
A being who hates Mystra and blames her for turning him into the Karse Stone.
-Karsus would not know who Mystra is, given that he ceased to exist as a living mortal before Mystra existed. He knew of Mystryl, but certainly did not 'hate' her.
He has been driven insane after tasted godhood and having it taken away from him by that *****.
-Karsus was considered 'mad' before he cast Karsus' Avatar.
He developed the Shadow Weave so he could have other gods use it against Mystra.
-The Shadow Weave existed long before Karsus cast Karsus' Avatar.
I think the concept of Karsus being "alive" all those years and being able to manipulate beings to do his will (killing Mystra) is an interesting idea for a story or campaign. Yes he was insane already so being in a stasis-like state and watching the world around him change while his is pretty much frozen in place would totally tear his mind apart IMO.Unleashing the Plague of Spells is somehow his insane plan to get back at Mystra and sully everything she stood for since she was always about protecting magic and its stability. Perhaps he had nothing to do with her death but somehow the Plague was all his doing.
I always figured he was turned int othe Karse Stone and I felt like he was not really destroyed but stuck in suspended animation.
-The Karse Stone is only his heart. His other "pieces", like his actual sentience, or his actual deific body, are elsewhere.
Bruce has some antidiluvian trick up his sleeve...
I'm going to scream if people keep over and misusing that word. In a world that doesn't have a Flood mythology, the term makes no sense out of its original content.
LK I'm not sure 5 minutes wouldn't work...
-We had a thread discussing the specific details, using extrapolations and guesses to do the actual math and everything.
-We had a thread discussing the specific details, using extrapolations and guesses to do the actual math and everything.
True enough, I ran a basic set of the numbers on this one taking into account possible profiles of the mountain, average mass and so on... and most of my numbers led me to the fairly solid conclusion that it would have to be in space to not have hit the ground in that amount of time.
-The reason for her death was to reach out to the 'I-don't-like-Mystra-therefore-I-don't-like-the-Forgotten-Realms' demographic. To "get them" by killing Mystra, and then bring Mystra back would "lose them".
I'm not sure if I buy into WoTc trying to appease the Mystra haters by offing Mystra. I mean, haters on any forum represent a small minority of the fan demographic so I don't see Mystra-haters being that significant. The way I have taken it is that the designers wanted to get away from the Vancian model of magic and change to the WoW model of magic.....yuck. So the easiest and most unimaginative way for them to do that is to kill off Mystra. But I can see WoTc eventually installing a new god of magic or at least magic users. And if any WoTc designers are reading, NO.....Corellon Larethian is not a proper replacement.
Well it wouldn't be a "plague" now would it.But on topic, If the death of Mystra was designed to bring people in who disliked her then killing her off is ok but to destroy the weave? Seems a little over the edge to me. I know this is a forgotten realms forum but I've always liked Krynn's control over magic. Three gods one to each major alignment. Aumentator?(good), Selune(Neutral), Insert any Evil God(preferably not Shar) who would fit and bring the weave back. I would imagine its pretty tough to be a magic user right now isn't it?
Though I'm a Drizztmanchild thing from the depths Dongarten and my opinion holds little weight among these forums. I think I'll go
for awhile and see if that fixes me
Frankly, I never understood why it was necessary to kill her. Though supposedly NG, she allowed pretty much anyone to use magic, technically even Cyric. It's not like she was disabling casters left and right, was it?
Her more human moments were the effect of the fact she was ascended mortal (2,3). That's why she kept Elminster and loved him, by the way... Or Kelemvor...
True enough, I ran a basic set of the numbers on this one taking into account possible profiles of the mountain, average mass and so on... and most of my numbers led me to the fairly solid conclusion that it would have to be in space to not have hit the ground in that amount of time.
Yeah I was looking at this too. Although a mountaintop with a very uneven surface would doubtlessly create a lot of drag, it's also really really heavy. Heavy enough to basically cancel that out. Unless Proctiv's Move Mountain has an undocumented side-affect of making the mountain much lighter (which does seem a possible way to reconcile the numbers) 30 seconds seems about right - it's enough for the mountain to fall four or five kilometers, which is about half the height the airplanes usually fly at. So it's easy to imagine that many of the cities hung out at that level or lower but some were higher up.
Towards the end of the five-minute span, the cities would be travelling several kilometers every second. AKA really fast.
If you've ever had a sweater you know that if you try to make the spaces between the yarn bigger you start to undermine the integrity of the sweater causing holes and such. If Mystra is simply a spell loom keeping magic rigid and understandable, then playing with the threads would have weakened her, yes? Then, without the weave there are no longer gaps (or shadow spaces) to control. Magic becomes chaotic and unwieldy for a time as the taught threads lash about. The result of this lack of control is chaos: the spell plague. We do know that wild magic occurred in 1358, and that the loss of Mystra resulted in a chaotic and unpredictable event, this event was equally tragic, and wild. What made it different is that no God of Magic stood up in short order to clean up the mess.
And with some adjustment: the Weave was a sweater which Mystryl held. Karsus was a cat that couldn't comprehend the sweater and just saw a ball of string to play with - which he did. Mystryl sac'ed herself to cut off said cat from the sweater. The sweater is effectively fumbled as Karsus and Mystryl are removed from the picture. Mystra recovers the fumble, notes that there are some sections of the sweater still stuck on the cat's claws (heavy magic) and then deputizes the Chosen to help her hold up the sweater. Time of Troubles occurs. The sweater droops precariously as Mystra is MIA, getting it dirty on the floor (wild magic and deadzones), but doesn't fall as the Chosen act as doorstops/crappy back up generators. Mystra reappears shiny and new and gets things relatively back to order though notes that some sections of the sweater are still dirty from rubbing against the floor. Mystra is murdered and the sweater begins to droop. Before the Chosen can catch it, the backdraft from the explosion of Dweomerheart, the death of Helm, the transformation of Lathander, the supercharging of Shar via Mask's dissolution, cause the sweater to drift away and fall to the floor a burning and rather sad looking thing - the Spell Plague occurs. Eventually the sweater fire fades down and the Spell Plague ends though the charred remains and embers still cause issues in some areas. People are surprised to learn the Weave isn't needed to cast magic - forgetting that the sweater had been made of bit of Selune and Shar in the first place- as magic was a universal thing and the Weave was just the form of magic under the rule of sentience but not the raw power of creation which flowed in the veins of the original deities. Ao doesn't care enough to instate another GoM as there simply isn't a point - the mortals are self-propogating magic users now.
Another theory which is more home spun
We know deities exist in multiple places at once and in different forms. The Weave could have been an avatar of Mystryl - magic under the control of sentience/order. Karsus works his mojo and starts to siphon the power off. Think of the spell in terms of application: it would need a target, most likely well defined. Mystryl stops the spell by altering her own portfolio and power - destroying herself while creating the Mystra persona. Due to chunks of missing divinity, the new portfolio is augmented by mortal ascension. The Weave continues on as the purest avatar of ordered magic -though a bit frayed- while other Mystra avatars are distinctly more human in action. Mystra gives out small portions of herself to the Chosen believing it will help anchor the Weave - this actually just corrupts its pure divinity with mortal bits. Time of Troubles: Mystra gets the boot from the Outer Planes. It had been assumed that the Weave would fail completely without her there. Instead the Weave loses contact with its mortal bits and holes appear where they were - dead zones and wild magic occur. New Mystra ascends, more mortal than before as a bit of divinity was destroyed by Helm: notably of the three mortals to ascend, she remains the most mortal/distinguishable from her portfolio in the long run. Mystra is murdered - outright killed - and her Weave avatar goes with her; the Spell Plague occurs as there is no divine guidance for the sentient control of magic. Raw magic, the likes of which had not been seen since Mystryls birth, runs rampant. There is not enough divinity associated with magic to invest in a new GoM without the post being forever influenced by mortal concerns. Ao decides to wait for a natural ascension so that the new GoM will match the portfolio rather than being shoe-horned in. Shar manages to have her church get the cultural track away from the wonders of magic and instead focus on more mundane matters. Once great cities known for being bright lights of magic, such as Waterdeep and Silverymoon, dim. The socio-cultural climate does not promote the necessary interest for one to start on the path to GoM. Shar takes credit for no new GoM. Meanwhile Corellon points out that he had been doing for Elves what Azuth had been doing for everyone except longer and that he was willing to start spreading the love to those without pointy ears. Everyone seems less then thrilled by this and decide that a more secular magic might be best in the long run.
cut awesome post to save space.
Very nice ideas into the spellplague here. Do you mind if I copy this into my thread about the Spellplague?
I'm trying to compile ideas and information in a user friend format so first timers (or anyone really) that want/need comprehensive information have a place they can find it.
Well, she certainly didn't disable people's spellcasting very often. I don't remember any occasion when she really did it.
-Which always causes sighs from me when this is cited as a problem that Mystra's existence causes. Other reasons, most others I don't have problems with.
Any DM who does that deserves what he got.
If something is causing you a problem, don't use it...
... but we've been over this a thousand times before, haven't we?
The conflicting lore about Mystra and the Weave really didn't help matters any, and obviously is the main reason they needed to get rid of them (no two designers seemed to be able to agree).
Very nice ideas into the spellplague here. Do you mind if I copy this into my thread about the Spellplague?
Not a problem at all.
Well, she certainly didn't disable people's spellcasting very often. I don't remember any occasion when she really did it.
The only 2 instances I can think of are in "Crucible: Trial of Cyric the Mad" and "Prince of Lies"
Ruha: Because she used a power to get Malik and ended up destroying a village with it. Though Ruha did believe the power was from Mystra and was from another god instead.though Mystra was unaware and punished Ruha believing she was @ fault. The truth came out later and Ruha was given access to the weave again but decided to forgo using magic for a while
Cyric: She denied him the use of the weave for some reason that slips my mind. But it was later restored as the council felt she overstepped her authority.
The conflicting lore about Mystra and the Weave really didn't help matters any, and obviously is the main reason they needed to get rid of them (no two designers seemed to be able to agree).
I doubt it, else we wouldn't be seeing Shar either. I still haven't found a decent explanation of just when and how the Shadow Weave was formed and what its relation to the regular one is.
-Karsus would not know who Mystra is, given that he ceased to exist as a living mortal before Mystra existed. He knew of Mystryl, but certainly did not 'hate' her.
Mystryl, Mystra, Midnight should be the same to him, as they represent what he sought after.
He could've betrayed in that he was favoured by Mystryl initially but he turned his back on her - WotC can even retcon him into a Chosen of Mystryl if that's what they want.
Besides, even though this idea is far-fetched, it's not entirely implausible given WotC's recent show of necrophilia - i.e. reviving dead FR features such as Cormanthyr, Miyeritar, Netheril, Imaskar, Sarrukh, Amaunator, and... the list goes on and may eventually include Karsus.
I doubt it, else we wouldn't be seeing Shar either. I still haven't found a decent explanation of just when and how the Shadow Weave was formed and what its relation to the regular one is.
I dont see the shadow weave as a true new force of magic but just a new darker way of casting. The actual components do not change much but they are distorted shadows of them, with the resulting spells just intrinsically more adapt to powers of guile, death and trickery.
A shadow is not there untill you cast light on it. So the shadow of the weave is there when you examine the weave through a new perspective, when cast in a new light.
The collapse of the shadowweave after the Spellplague supports the actual weaveshade theory. No weave means also no shadow of it.
BTW I love the concept of viscuous darkness and "slow and heavy" light. This way when light emerges in shadowy area's or in planes of shadow it has to battle the darkness i.e. it slowly creeps about the landscape. A darkness could flow slowly away into a puddle and be drained away. Perhaps this is also in effect when Mystra died, so that the shadow weave slowly was drained into Realmspace/Shadowfell or beneath the surface of Toril giving Shadowweave casters a bit more chance at surviving the nasty effects of the Spellplague on arcane casters.
He could've betrayed in that he was favoured by Mystryl initially but he turned his back on her - WotC can even retcon him into a Chosen of Mystryl if that's what they want.
-As it stands now, none of that is anything more than just hypothesis, as it isn't canon.
The collapse of the shadowweave after the Spellplague supports the actual weaveshade theory. No weave means also no shadow of it.
-Only if it relies on it for it's own structure. If it's something that has grown to support itself, then it wouldn't need the Weave. With metacosmic entities like the Weave and Shadow Weave, the conversation is more esoteric than anything.
The collapse of the shadowweave after the Spellplague supports the actual weaveshade theory. No weave means also no shadow of it.
The collapse of the shadowweave after the Spellplague supports the fact that WotC had ignored its own canon materials in Magic of Faerun and FRCS 3ed.
The collapse of the shadowweave after the Spellplague supports the fact that WotC had ignored its own canon materials in Magic of Faerun and FRCS 3ed.
The collapse of the shadow weave was killing two birds with one stone.
I doubt it, else we wouldn't be seeing Shar either. I still haven't found a decent explanation of just when and how the Shadow Weave was formed and what its relation to the regular one is.
But THEY love Shar!
Mystra and her Weave were Ed's creations, and the current team felt they were just "a bother" (along with most of the material created by the giants that went before them).
Whereas Shar has only risen to her current, monolithic glory under their management - SHE needn't make any sense, because they think she's the 'Bee's Knees'.
If it wasn't for her, they wouldn't have been able to bring back the craptastic Shade Enclave.
No... Shar's their Poster child, and her Weave needs to stay, weather it makes sense or not.
Besides, making sense is no longer important - thats why they 'erased' all previous lore - it made their heads hurt.
Also, Shar's becoming (or rather, IS) multispheric now, which makes her greater then Mystra ever was. Pretty soon, they'll be saying that the Weave was just a weak imitation of the Shadoweave, and needed the Shadoweave to exist, NOT the other way around.
Hmph... maybe I shouldn't be giving them any ideas....
Pretty soon, they'll be saying that the Weave was just a weak imitation of the Shadoweave, and needed the Shadoweave to exist, NOT the other way around.
Hmph... maybe I shouldn't be giving them any ideas....
They've probably already thought of it. I wouldn't be surprised if they actually do that.
But THEY love Shar!
Imagine those old farts salivating when they think of this:
