-More powerful creatures periodically exterminate Goblinoid numbers as well.
-That said, this thread belongs in the Realmslore section, and I'll have it moved there for you.
Also not my intention to try to make the rise of the Nazi's my question to everyone. Although, that's what I'm trying to say. I am looking at history and applying to this scenario. Germany could rise out of no where. All that it really took to light off that powered keg was one little fire.
Imagine now that it wasn't one small nation but a species that banded together and rose against their "oppressors".
Bilbo.... Elric.... Drizzt... Heracules... Batman...
HUH?
Bilbo.... Elric.... Drizzt... Heracules... Batman...
He's saying: "The reason Goblins and other monsters don't rule the world is because Heroes exist."
Sure, every now and then the monstrous hordes rise up under the rule of a charismatic and powerful warlord, and sweep down upon the lands around them -- and then PCs show up and kill them all, or at least the leaders, forcing the army to devolve into bands of infighting savages who are driven away.
In Eberron there is a nation of monsters, Darguun, and the nation of Hobgoblins, Droaam. So, it depends what your campaign world's history looks like basically. In the Realms the monsters tend to fight each other more than anyone else, and get crushed when they venture out to conquer. Not sure about this new "points of light" Realms, but in the past anyway.
I believe the point was to list powerful (or at least famous) figures who don't rely on magic to counter the argument that without magic one can't succeed.
Bilbo - The one Ring
Elric - STORMBRINGER
Drizzt - Drow abilities (Darkness), Magical scimitars, magic bracers (on ankles to increase speed), allies with magical weapons
Hearcules - Demigod (Superhuman strength)
Batman - Immense wealth, sci-fi gadgets.
Batman comes the closest to that idea, and his tech is far enough advanced to be considered magic to a degree.
And Elric was not a hero, anti-hero comes closer, he wouldn't have stopped an orc horde unless there was gain in for him.
Bilbo - The one Ring
Elric - STORMBRINGER
Drizzt - Drow abilities (Darkness), Magical scimitars, magic bracers (on ankles to increase speed), allies with magical weapons
Hearcules - Demigod (Superhuman strength)
Batman - Immense wealth, sci-fi gadgets.
Batman comes the closest to that idea, and his tech is far enough advanced to be considered magic to a degree.
-That says so much better what I was trying to say. ;)
-That says so much better what I was trying to say. ;)
Yeah, the first two alone are incredible artifacts. Lucky he doesn't seem to put a lot of thought into his arguments.
... snip..., and looking through the MM goblins should rule all things mortal.
What makes you make this statement?
Do the new monster write ups make goblins all powerfull and intelligent or something?
In any case. There have been some periods in the history of fearun that hobgoblin empires were more formidable than the human ones. For example in my campaign during the age of dragons hobgoblins devised the first blademagic techniques to do battle against dragons and giants with a perfected martial style called Iron Heart, which tempered thier steel and resolve into one body of lightning fast maneauvers and reactions and was the basis for all later blademagic perfected by Revan.
I can imagine a setting that takes place in a goblin-ruled world -- it's just that such a world would not be the Forgotten Realms (At least not the Realms now; maybe it could be the Realms in the far future or past or in an alternate timeline.).
"This is the goblin-only distict, human. Unless you can show a Servant's Visa, you must stay outside the gates."
"We have done everything to guide you wretched halflings to civilization, yet receive not a hint of gratitude. Sometimes I suspect your race is incapable of it. If I had my way, I'd have every halflings in this city put to the sword, but of course Commander Daaul'varth has orders otherwise..."
"Be reasonable -- I'm a dwarf and have my pride just as you do, but irrational rebeliousness does no one any good. The goblins are fair and honorable if treated likewise, and reward obedience and diligence. I was once a slave just as you are now, yet now I am an officer commanding the 4th Dwarven Security Squadron. It is true that it is not perfect, but for the most part those who die in the mines have brought such death-labor upon themselves through repeated infractions of the clear and reasonable rules the goblins have given us."
Although, that's what I'm trying to say. I am looking at history and applying to this scenario. Germany could rise out of no where. All that it really took to light off that powered keg was one little fire.
Imagine now that it wasn't one small nation but a species that banded together and rose against their "oppressors".
Except your knowledge of history is lacking. Germany most certainly did not come out of nowhere. The economic depression that gripped Germany was almost entirely due to the massive debts incurred in the fallout of WW1 and the knock-on effect of the American economy falling apart after the Wall Street Crash. Germany had loads of natural resources to exploit, some of the best scientists and engineers in the world, and a massive industrial capacity. The resources to create a military behemoth were there already, it was just a matter of reorganising the economy to produce it at a time when Germany's neighbours had other things on their mind than pre-emptively stomping Germany.
In contrast the average stereotypical goblin tribe dwells in lands that are nigh uninhabitable for more powerful races, are entrenched in a philosophy that ignores academic knowledge altogether, meaning they have little industrial capability, meaning their spellcasters and equipment tend to be markedly inferior to those of their neighbours. The only thing they have is a high birthrate, which in and of itself simply isn't enough to acheive great power status. For example, despite containing most of the worlds population, it wasn't until relatively recently that China and India started approaching great power status (and one could argue they still have a way to go) simply because the process of industrialisation took so long.
The only thing they have is a high birthrate, which in and of itself simply isn't enough to acheive great power status. For example, despite containing most of the worlds population, it wasn't until relatively recently that China and India started approaching great power status (and one could argue they still have a way to go) simply because the process of industrialisation took so long.
-This is a good analogy, obviously, with no ill-intent towards Indians/Chinese.
Maglubiyet, Khurgorbaeyag and Hruggek are to blame as well. They are intensly paranoid as many ambitious goblin demigods roam on Toril.
However, the commonality of the fictional characters cited by him is that they share in common, each has a person flaw that they overcame and became 'great'.
Ive been argusing this point with him, and, up until 4e rules came out, i would agree that goblins and goiblinoids would never be able to take over the world since they are devisive, devious, cowardly, not very bright, not very charismatic, and always out for #1 (3e+ MM states their alignment as NE).
But, based purely on abilities in 4e, IF a truly great leader arises whom has a master's grasp of tactics, to lead the goblinoid races, and who can keep himself from being assassinated by underlings who want the #1 spot for themselves, goblinoids would swarm over any world in which they exist.
Under 3e+ rules, I would cite the 'Red Hand of Doom' module.
Batman comes the closest to that idea
That would make a great campaign: The PCs are Goblins, working to overthrow the Faerunian order. Talk about "points of light in a dark world" - from a Goblinoid perspective, they're always taking the stovepipe, kingdoms of light (er, darkness) have been pushing them around since the Grey Box, and it's time for the Goblins to rise and initiate a New Age of Faerun.
The goblins unite under their great leader and start organizing. They march on the nearest human kingdom, but while doing so are spotted by a silver dragon. Silver dragon goes and gets a few of his cousins, and then set into the wonderful buffet provided by the nice leader for them. The goblins might stop one or two of the dragons, but their ranks are going to be decimated at the end of that battle. At which point the nearest human nation's army, alerted by the good dragon, shows up and finishes off the goblins. End of war.
And before you poo-poo this, consider, Kauth (evil ancient red) used to routinely decimate orc hordes in the north.
of course, we'd have to use 3.5 to play the campaign, since none of us even remotely like 4e :P
Except your knowledge of history is lacking. Germany most certainly did not come out of nowhere. The economic depression that gripped Germany was almost entirely due to the massive debts incurred in the fallout of WW1 and the knock-on effect of the American economy falling apart after the Wall Street Crash. Germany had loads of natural resources to exploit, some of the best scientists and engineers in the world, and a massive industrial capacity. The resources to create a military behemoth were there already, it was just a matter of reorganising the economy to produce it at a time when Germany's neighbours had other things on their mind than pre-emptively stomping Germany.
Not to mention that Hitler and his cronies managed to essentially bancrupt the whole country. The amount of amassed debts was huge.
The goblins lack a simple commodity: money, and access to creditors.
Btw. Darguun: Goblins. Droaam: Monsters. Not the other way around.
-I believe that Madeline Pryor was the 'Goblyn Queen'.
Yep, but she was just a copy of Marvel Girl (Jean Grey - her mutant name seems to have been lost over the years). Inferno was back when I was really into comics.
If they were to build there culture for a few generations, then they would be a force to be reckoned with. Then again, perhaps I am taking this discussion too seriously.
-Even if they did, they'd have to figure out how to compensate/stop the outlook that they are monsters, and need to be killed on sight. The Germans, there were never concentrated efforts to eradicate their kind.
First was a short story. A tribe of goblins sent a messanger to an Elven forest. Up till then, the elven policy regarding goblins was "fill them with arrows". However this was the first time they tried to parley with them. So the wisest Elven Druidess decided to accept the offer, in order to try and help foster peace and understanding between them.
The Druidess was led to the goblin leader, the biggest gobliness she had ever seen. Turns out, that this goblin had an ivory cup (a small artifact that gives the owner healing whenever a white spell is cast). This artifact had allowed her to survive far longer than most goblins, and had made her powerful and smart (for a goblin). Unfortunately, it had stopped working, and she could feel herself weakening. That is why she turned to the elves for help. Well, the druidess figured out that when the goblins had destroyed the nearby human village, they had destroyed the source of white magic that was powering the cup.
She explained this to the Goblin, and tried to consolle her. That life and death were part of the natural cycle, and that one day she would die and be replaced, and that she should take comfort in preparing the next generation. Well the goblin flew into a rage at the thought that she would die and some one would rplace her, and attacked the Druidess. The elves retaliated and slaughtered the goblins, but not before the Druidess was mortally wounded. One of the Elves lamented that this was a tragedy, but the dying druidess addmonished him and told him that they had learned something very important. When encountering goblins, one must pity them... then fill them with arrows.
The other book had to do with an experiment. A human came to a sudden realization. That the driving force behind goblin civilization was fear. Fear ruled everything they did. It paralyzed and crippled their society, and was responsible for many of the woes goblins inflicted upon the other races. So the human took a handfull of baby goblins, and trained them to overcome their fear. It worked, and these goblins were nothing like their kin.
So long story short... Goblins end up keeping themselves down. It's hard wirded into them. Historically, think of the trends in our own civilizations. When humanity was caught in a subsistance level, very little change ever took place. People were too worried about basic survival to spend much time improving their situation. The first big booms to civiliazation came with slave labor. By having somebody else to do the dirty work, people were able to spend time and resources improving their lot. Latter, slave labor was replaced with technical innovation, and society continued to evolve.
Goblins are still on a subsistance level. To make matters work, they are on the proverbial bottom of the food chain. They can't reallly dominate other sentient races, and concerns about basic survival keep them from doing much about it.
Except your knowledge of history is lacking. Germany most certainly did not come out of nowhere.
Thank you for saving me the time of pointing this out
A nice account you wrote there, and pretty accurate I'd say.And by the way, I'm not pleased that we're being taken as an analogue to goblins! My gosh, if it were bugbears or something, but not mere stinky little goblins
And by the way, I'm not pleased that we're being taken as an analogue to goblins! My gosh, if it were bugbears or something, but not mere stinky little goblins
-Hobgoblins?
-Hobgoblins?
I don't know, I don't know... they're red, after all, they'd do better as a Soviet analogue. Hey, and for all the fans of these analogues, comparing the Third Reich to goblins, apart from the point "Germany didn't come out of nowhere but the goblins do", there is another technical problem. Goblins are NE, right? Nazi Germany, however, was the epitome of LE, at least in my opinion. This also creates different initial positions that further prohibit the use of this analogue :P
EDIT: After having read the Hobgoblin MM description, I'd concede to seeing the Third Reich being compared to Hobgoblins as a rather precise depiction. Starting out from this point, however, one has to ask himself: Why don't Hobgoblins rule the world? Did the underestimate the harshness of the Great Dale's winter?
I don't know, I don't know... they're red, after all...
-Are they? I always saw them with purple-green mottled skin.
EDIT: After having read the Hobgoblin MM description, I'd concede to seeing the Third Reich being compared to Hobgoblins as a rather precise depiction.
-See! Told you! :P
Well, in the presumed time frame of D&D (i.e., anywhere between the neolithic invention of agriculture and the industrial revolution), the overwhelming majority of, say, humans are also living at the subsistance level.
Interesting but not very precise. Most human cultures have acces to medical care and other utilitatrian magic to raise the living standard to above the typical medieval/renaissancce technological level.
@LK I always made the Fearunian hobgoblins redbrown. The more eastern Karaturan ones are greenish-purple. Wasn't it the D&D cartoon that made them so?
Interesting but not very precise. Most human cultures have acces to medical care and other utilitatrian magic to raise the living standard to above the typical medieval/renaissancce technological level.
Interesting, but not very precise. The average citizen of the realms (9 in 10) is a peasant farmer, who may or may not own the land he lives on. Most know of magic, but few see it practiced often if at all. There may be a cleric in the nearby village, but most injuries are handled by herbs and lore, just as feudal Europeans had to. The realms are definitely a medieval society, with a few pockets of renaissance or better. (Paraphrased from FRCS - Life in Faerun (a chapter that was desperately needed in 4e CG)).
While those societies that you mention, have access to utilitarian magic and clerical healing, it tends to be available primarily to the elite of that society.
Indeed. But a sensible farming familiy sends at least one of its offspring to become a divine caster, ensuring a strong tie with a church and the political and medical boons granted trough it. A lowly community of 20 to 50 members has a large chance to have at least one lowlevel adept or cleric around, especially in a pantheistic society.
That is not cannon though, only a belief that can not be proven by the books available. No evidence exists, and the FRCS only says that children follow in their parents footsteps, taking to their parents crafts at a young age. Even if true, they still don't benefit from more than a little divine magic. Which all races have access to, even goblins and hobgoblins. No magical lights in houses, no running water, no quick communications, except maybe a gong or a horn, to neighbors, etc. By and large, society in the Realms is much like medieval Europe, as I said before.
Also the subsistance levels of more primal societies can be outgrown when shamans and witchdoctors aid their communities. The herbs and ointments they create are of a more powerfull kind than the ones used by neolithic society on earth, capable of acting as powerfull stimulants and medicen.
The influence of magic can have profound influences on the demographics of a society.
Wasn't it the D&D cartoon that made them so?
-Never saw it, so I don't know.
Second, and more importantly, between the neolithic agricultural revolulution and the industrial revolution, improvements in agricultural technology/methods, advances in sanitation, improvements in medical knowledge, etc, generally manifested themselves, in the long term, as increased population density, not as increased standard of living for most people. In an agricultural society where children are a useful supply of farm labor and little investment in education is expected or needed, the incentive for a typical family is to have as many children as possible. If standards of living were high enough that lowered infant mortality, stronger disease resistance, etc, allow population growth, then that lead to reduced per-capita fertile land (and lead to more marginal, less fruitful lands being cultivated).
In fact, in that era, higher standards of living could be achieved not by raising them above the subsistence level, but by increasing the subsistence level itself -- effectively "forcing" population density down by kicking the negative feedback loops into action at a higher standard of living. Western Europe achieved this by having Christianity-based social mores which increased the age of marriage and childbearing to the mid-20s, so that simply maintaining a population equilibrium required better conditions than if the full range of fertility were used (i.e., children soon after menarche). This is why, I believe, that in spite of the fact that Song Chinese had a more efficient and benign government, better technology, more advanced knowledge, etc, than the Capet French, the average French peasant had a higher standard of living, longer life expectancy (maybe 45 rather than 37), etc, than the average Chinese peasant.
So, in the Realms, healing magic might well have a demographic effect similar to pre-industrial improvement in medicine: in the short term, higher standards of living. In the long run, a denser population, and roughly the same standards of living. Since such magic isn't a new invention, I'd say it'd be the "long run" by this point.
Personally, I would expect that in the FR either the sentient races have not yet been numerous enough to run into overcrowding problems, or are effectively "culled" by warfare with monsters and other humanoids into a relatively low number.