Seems other gods were killed off too for convenience just so this edition makes sense.... poor mystara.
If you want to kill off a goodie god then kill off one thats really major and really shake things up... like Corellon. I think Mystara was killed simply for convenience as well...
probably why I already decided I wont buy the FR campaign book, basing off written books is just asking for trouble. I'll just get the player's book for races/classes o.O
-RW
Adieu, Dame de la Nuit...
It still reeked of expediency - that is, that she died not because it made inherent sense in the overall storyline, but rather that it was because of a decision made from on-high that she did not fit with their overall plan for the Realms.
Like for many of the changes, it is not contradictory.
Note: I only used her ONCE ever in any campaign but I always saw her as something that was needed, a light against the darkness. Why must the young die and the old linger on? (elli is the young, core and lolth are the old...being the parents and all)
Kill corellon and lolth, I wanna see what happens in that scenario instead e.e
Like for many of the changes, it is not contradictory.
That's debatable. It's fair to be of either opinion - though among those who were big fans of Eilistraee, their opinions don't seem to agree with yours (from what I've seen - That's purely anecdotal evidence, of course).
-RW
It's a pity that such a great concept was created and then, before it even had time to grow, was killed off.
Like for many of the changes, it is not contradictory.
-Oh, the entire plot line was filled with continuity problems, lore loopholes, and the final book itself was quite contradictory, yes. Case in point, read the final pages of the last chapter, with the lore introduced in that book itself in mind.
I was a big fan of The Masked Lady concept, and thought it a waste to lose her...
-Agreed. Finally, a deity of the Drow that made sense, all things considering.
That would have been a much better and more interesting ending, IMO.
Not the most appealing deity for a male drow.
I agree that the Masked Lady was more attractive than a goddess who doesn't really care about folks of the male persuasion.
Not the most appealing deity for a male drow.
-Indeed. And, when you are trying to free the entire race from the "oppressive grasp of Lolth", distancing yourself from 50% of your possible worship base isn't really the best way to go about doing things.
Seriously a new Masked Lady concept is not a bad thing to push for people.
Let's "push" for it!
That's debatable. It's fair to be of either opinion - though among those who were big fans of Eilistraee, their opinions don't seem to agree with yours (from what I've seen - That's purely anecdotal evidence, of course).
I was actualy a fan - mourning her. But I remember it's also a fictional work, and considering that there is at times in life way more serious and real issues that one can face...
-Oh, the entire plot line was filled with continuity problems, lore loopholes, and the final book itself was quite contradictory, yes. Case in point, read the final pages of the last chapter, with the lore introduced in that book itself in mind.
Or like with the whole controversy, those problems are subjective and at times, clearly biaised.
(and depending on which kind of fluff you speak off, may be deliberate - like folk tales, who can change quite along the speakers. Of course, saw nothing of the book yet.)
Or like with the whole controversy, those problems are subjective and at times, clearly biaised.
-Or not. I'm not fully sure what you are trying to convey here, but continuity problems arise because of what happens in these books, lore loopholes exist because of what happens in these books, and certain parts of the books themselves contradict with each other.
Of course, saw nothing of the book yet.)
-You should probably refrain from making absolute statements until you do. ;)
The race is split, and the remaining descendants of old Illythiiri houses are freed from the taint of the balor Wendonai.
-RW
.But yes, Masked Lady was damned awesome idea.
Let's make her a shadowy assassin illusionist who's really good at plotting and intrigue and stuff!
Oh wait, that still exists, yay! She's called Lolth and is spelled Z-I-N-Z-E-R-E-N-A! Whoo-hoo!
What? You don't think ol-spider butt is perverse enough to have her clergy overthrow her clergy and have herself plot to overthrow herself? Um, hello? Lady of Chaos here?
Ha ha, he he, ho ho
Chaos Harlequin - laughing through tears, missing her inspirations Zinzerena, Leira, and now, Eilistraee, Lurue, and the short lived, Masked Lady
and the remaining descendants of old Illythiiri houses are freed from the taint of the balor Wendonai.
Nope, the descendants of the old Miyeritari houses were freed from the curse of the ritual wich caused the Descent and made them also drow. The Ilythiiri had the mark of Wendonai (since they summoned and used him), but the Miyeritari not. It is unkown why they were also affected through this high magi spell and now it was undone. Besides the descendants of the Miyeritari there were other drow changed, but only those who allready worshipped Eilistraee and so were allready redeemed before this allmighty godkiller Q'arlynd made his little show.
If it's any consellation, she's prolly still alive somewhere in an artifact, limbo or in some other deity waiting to pop out
Not sure about that, but I got the impresion that maybe she was absorbed by Corellon the same way, she absorbed her brother. That would explain why her Realm did not vanish. But it was only a hope from one who found this ML concept also interesting. On the other hand, after they got rid of most gods in 4e I don't think that they will start with new/old ones someday (let us hope, that they do not explain the others away as being and allways have been a part of the One God)
Nope, the descendants of the old Miyeritari houses were freed from the curse of the ritual wich caused the Descent and made them also drow. The Ilythiiri had the mark of Wendonai (since they summoned and used him), but the Miyeritari not. It is unkown why they were also affected through this high magi spell and now it was undone. Besides the descendants of the Miyeritari there were other drow changed, but only those who allready worshipped Eilistraee and so were allready redeemed before this allmighty godkiller Q'arlynd made his little show.
Yes, slip of the words there. Thanks for catching it.
-RW
I can even say the word "Dragonborn" out-loud now without vomitting in my mouth (hey, it's a start!)
However, I think killing off Eilistraee was THE WORST decision any designer has ever made in the history of mankind. Worse even then the guy who picked the site to build Pompeii, IMHO.
There are probably highly intelligent lifeforms on other worlds shaking their heads now at WotC - they blew it for the whole human race, I think: We'll never get to join the League of Intelligent Species now.
Can you tell I really liked Eilistraee?
Probably one of the best story/setting ideas ever to come out of Ed's head, and they just killed her off because she made D&D 'messy'.
Just, wow.
Bel
Oh wait, that still exists, yay! She's called Lolth and is spelled Z-I-N-Z-E-R-E-N-A! Whoo-hoo!
-Of course, Zinzerena doesn't exactly exist in Realmspace.
Just wondering why you killed what I feel was really the shiniest beacon of hope for drow in possibly being good. Can't make clerics of her anymore that seek to bring drow out of the darkness...nope.
Yes you can, because you don't have to use changes you don't like.
It still reeked of expediency - that is, that she died not because it made inherent sense in the overall storyline, but rather that it was because of a decision made from on-high that she did not fit with their overall plan for the Realms.
That pretty much sums up my own feelings on the matter (and other matters of the Realms setting).
Personally, until the Masked Lady came across, I thought of Eilistraee as being almost as sexist as Momma was. Her priesthood was entirely made up of naked, dancing women.
Not the most appealing deity for a male drow.
I agree that the Masked Lady was more attractive than a goddess who doesn't really care about folks of the male persuasion.
Oh god not this argument again.
Number one, the clerics of Eilistraee did not spend all or even most of their time naked, it's just that that's the aspect of this religion that people remember and overemphasize, for obvious reasons (not sure why male drow wouldn't find naked dancing women appealing, but that's a whole different argument).
Number two, males could be priests as per F&P, and Ed Greenwood.
Number three, it's certainly not a fact that Eilistraee didn't care about those who happened to be male.
Oh god not this argument again.
:P
Why the heck did Wizards ruin the drow patheon? it was about perfect.
-The designers wanted to "return" to the "days" when Lolth was all there was for the Drow*.
*Not in the Forgotten Realms, but just in general D&D.
whole cloth then basically you're not longer a goddess of Light and hope.It was a mercy killing to be honest.
I hated the Masked Lady concept...
-It was something that needed to be done.
It was?!
-I feel so, yes. A goddess looking to bring the entire race into the light, that was grossly sexist in the practices of her church, is unappealing to male Drow. Likewise, Vhaeraun, in looking to bring the entire race out of the clutches of Lolth, that was grossly sexist in the practices of his church, in unappealing to female Drow. That's 50% of the total population that is not included in the "new order" in a way that would be appealing. That's a bad way of doing things, if you ask me.
And a clergy mostly made of elven women with the habit of dancing naked is the best publicity ever.:D
Seriously, she was one of my favorite goddesses in the Realms. I felt that if the drow should have only two gods, it should have been Lolth and Eilistraee, and I was perfectly happy with the Masked Lady, however short her tenure.
I think I'll just make her an Exach or an aspect of Selune to try to salvage something. Silly Wizard of the Coast ruining my game...:P
Why would Eilistraee's clergy be unapealling to males? I agree that most clerics were females and that the highest positions were also held by females. On the other hand, you came to Eilistraee's worship for redemption, not for position or power.
-Would you initially be attracted to the Church of Eilistree is your "growth options" within it were very limited, and you are in a hierarchy mostly akin to the Lolthite Matron Mothers, but without the beatings, or the Church of Vhaeraun, which offered to empower the male Drow?
-The Masked Lady provided both.
A weapon can only kill ONE, count them, ONE person at a time. Rules as written, there is, quite simply, no way this could happen.
As cool as "Last priestess of Eilistraee" is as a concept for one of my PC's, I think that everything after 1375 as far as the novels are concerned can go suck eggs. Bad enough I have to deal with the shades and the fact that monkeys with typewriters have more intelligence, now they have to take away the stuff I like, too.
What's wrong with the cheesecake goddess? What's wrong with powerful women? Did someone wake up in the morning and say "You know, I feel castrated because there are powerful women in the Realms, so let's return things to make them more male centered, and make the two most powerful female goddesses, Lolth and Shar, who are EVIL, center stage."
I have no sympathy for Wizards and their antifeminist attitude. That's really my problem. It's one thing to say "You know, feminism goes a little far." It's another thing to make that an extremist position in and of itself.
Instead of bemoaning the loss of so many women characters, I, the Dragon Pyrothax instead state that we should be grateful for the much larger representation of Draconic characters in the Realms. There's no more Dragons than human females now but they're still outnumbered by the human males.
We should fix this.
-I feel so, yes. A goddess looking to bring the entire race into the light, that was grossly sexist in the practices of her church, is unappealing to male Drow. Likewise, Vhaeraun, in looking to bring the entire race out of the clutches of Lolth, that was grossly sexist in the practices of his church, in unappealing to female Drow. That's 50% of the total population that is not included in the "new order" in a way that would be appealing. That's a bad way of doing things, if you ask me.
Actually, my problem with the Masked Lady concept probably stems from the fact that I just ignored that Eli didn't allow males into her clergy. They were equal in my version of the Realms. Had the Masked Lady occurred in my realms, there'd be about a thousand female corpses spread across the Promenade because well....Vhaeraun's worshipers are *EVIL* and letting them into the faith is a dumb idea.
-I feel so, yes. A goddess looking to bring the entire race into the light, that was grossly sexist in the practices of her church, is unappealing to male Drow. Likewise, Vhaeraun, in looking to bring the entire race out of the clutches of Lolth, that was grossly sexist in the practices of his church, in unappealing to female Drow. That's 50% of the total population that is not included in the "new order" in a way that would be appealing. That's a bad way of doing things, if you ask me.
Such balanced are about as common as a Spell Well(actually, even less so). Even attempting to be pleasing, welcoming or inviting to what one thinks is desired by both males and females still leaves ever so many of both that aren't interested in what it is your selling. Beyond male and female, are individuals..
Attempting to assemble "all" that are beneath an umbrella
of contentment, fellowship and faith is a unreachable goal...and a mission without end.
Such balanced are about as common as a Spell Well(actually, even less so). Even attempting to be pleasing, welcoming or inviting to what one thinks is desired by both males and females still leaves ever so many of both that aren't interested in what it is your selling. Beyond male and female, are individuals..
Attempting to assemble "all" that are beneath an umbrella
of contentment, fellowship and faith is a unreachable goal...and a mission without end.
Except, that's Eli's thing. She wants to save the Drow race, not Drow women.
-Would you initially be attracted to the Church of Eilistree is your "growth options" within it were very limited, and you are in a hierarchy mostly akin to the Lolthite Matron Mothers, but without the beatings, or the Church of Vhaeraun, which offered to empower the male Drow?
-The Masked Lady provided both.
-If I wanted power I'd go to Vhaeraun. If I'd wanted redemption, I'd go to Eli. That's simple. As I said, if you were going to her for chances at advancement but not for moral reasons, you chose the wrong goddess.
-That's why I liked her, although she seemed more morally ambiguous. I'll miss her, the poor thing.
-I feel so, yes. A goddess looking to bring the entire race into the light, that was grossly sexist in the practices of her church, is unappealing to male Drow. Likewise, Vhaeraun, in looking to bring the entire race out of the clutches of Lolth, that was grossly sexist in the practices of his church, in unappealing to female Drow. That's 50% of the total population that is not included in the "new order" in a way that would be appealing. That's a bad way of doing things, if you ask me.
Was it actualy published anyway the birthrate ratio of male drow to female drows? I mean there could just be more female drow then male....
Also I don't get really why having only male or female clerics should mean anything? If you are following a god for power then you probably not get spells or power(well atleast before 4th edition made cleric no longer really beholden to their gods...). There is nothing in tennents that states anything about men being lesser.
And I'll be honest if I was a drow male who wanted to seek redemption I would probably seek out Ellistreea even though she would never grant me spells that is not why I would worship her. Because I am not following her to gets spells or power but because her teaching are in line with my outlook.
Actually Elistraees sacrifice was to save a large portion of the drow from the darkness that was Wendonais' taint. They are now Dark Elves under Corellons protection, and he is championing them now.
-RW
A small portion, if you please.
As for this lame gender equality stuff. If you want your moon deity catering for divine casters of both genders, get yourself Selûne or Sehanine. Eilistraee was clearly a copy of the Roman Diana and she was a huntress, moon deity and female only as well. Get over it, you have about 95% of all Faerûnian faiths that have no gender restriction, don't lament on the other 5% like there is no tomorrow.
Actually, my problem...
-I did preface that by saying "I personally felt...". :P
Such balanced are about as common as a Spell Well(actually, even less so).
-Untrue. If you read Demihuman Deities, Faiths & Avatars and Powers & Pantheons, you'll see that many deities had a very even ratio of male clergy members to female clergy members.
Even attempting to be pleasing, welcoming or inviting to what one thinks is desired by both males and females still leaves ever so many of both that aren't interested in what it is your selling. Beyond male and female, are individuals..Attempting to assemble "all" that are beneath an umbrella of contentment, fellowship and faith is a unreachable goal...and a mission without end.
-It'd be in Eilistraee's best interests, then, to figure out common ground, as her duty is to...was to "redeem" the entire Drow race. And, of course, Vhaeraun, too. The Masked Lady united those two, into something greater than the sum of it's two parts. As was in the novels, moonlight doesn't exist without shadows, and shadows don't exist without moonlight.
-If I wanted power I'd go to Vhaeraun. If I'd wanted redemption, I'd go to Eli. That's simple. As I said, if you were going to her for chances at advancement but not for moral reasons, you chose the wrong goddess.
-Right. Now, what happens when you want to be a "redeemed" Drow male, but not want to submit yourself to a matriarchy very akin to Lolth's, only without the beatings?
Was it actualy published anyway the birthrate ratio of male drow to female drows? I mean there could just be more female drow then male....
-Hmm...I don't know what the ratio is. The birthrate of Drow, in general, isn't all that spectacular, that much I do know.
Also I don't get really why having only male or female clerics should mean anything?
-Would you be attracted to a faith that offers you an almost parody mirror of the life you used to live? A matriarchy in which women are in the sole control of the upper echelons of the faith? As a Drow male having escaped from Lolthite society? Sure, they promise redemption and all of that, but didn't the priestess' of Lolth guarantee the same thing?
There is nothing in tennents that states anything about men being lesser.
-Ah, but they don't 'practice what they preach'. Does Eilistraee allow male Clerics? Sure, but only after they subject themselves to the "humiliation"* of transforming themselves into women, into something they are aren't. Aren't I good enough as is, for the deity, or her church? No? Why not?
*Something nature obviously never intended them to be.
And I'll be honest if I was a drow male who wanted to seek redemption I would probably seek out Ellistreea even though she would never grant me spells that is not why I would worship her. Because I am not following her to gets spells or power but because her teaching are in line with my outlook.
-Would you really? Vhaeraun offers the same outlook (escape from the clutches of Lolth, and her eventual overthrow). Vhaeraun offers a brotherhood with like-minded individuals, where you are your own person, as opposed to Eilistraee's church, which offers more matrons to command you.
-This is the main crux. As a Drow male escaping from the Lolthite society, the first thing he is going to see is another Drow matriarchy. Nurtured on the concept that everything one Drow tells another is a lie, who is going to believe those priestess', who promise happiness, and friends, and peace? What's the catch? There's got to be some kind of catch.
Plus, it also sucks for player options if you want to play a redeemed Drow priest.
How would you like it if the description for Tempus' clergy went like this?
"Tempus' clergy are all male. He has lay worshipers but all of his battle priests and rites are only performed by men. Any spell casting priestess must transform herself into a man for the duration of them"
-Right. Now, what happens when you want to be a "redeemed" Drow male, but not want to submit yourself to a matriarchy very akin to Lolth's, only without the beatings?
I humbly think that you're being unfair to Eilistraee's church.
There was no obligation for males to submit to anyone. Her cult always encouraged her followers to be independant, and the only males following orders were those serving as soldiers for the cult, wich seem logical; soldiers follow orders. And seen that most males drow were either warriors or wizards, a lot of the males followers of Eilistraee became soldiers forher cult, but it was their choice. If you didn't want to follow orders you there were other things to do than soldiering. The priestesses didn't go seeking independant believers to push them around. Or if they did, I missed something.
There was no obligation for males to submit to anyone.
-Well, f they want to be an active part of the organization, they have to submit to the priestess'. The priestess tells you to do something, well, you comply. If you don't, you'll face ramifications for insubordination, like anywhere else. That's the definition of hierarchy.
Well it's like any organization. But the point is, having faith in Eilistraee didn't mean submitting to her priestesses.
-They're in charge. They tell you what to do, and you do it. I don't know about you, but that sure sounds like the definition of submitting yourself to them.
-Now, what Drow male, just escaped from Lolthite society, would go running into this situation arms wide open?
Indirectly leading to Eli's death.
Again, I'll insist that that being part of the cult don't mean they need to be part of the hierarchy. To take an example, all christians aren't priests. And in this case, the priestess can only order those males who are actually below them, like a bishop can ordera priest or something like that.
The women are in charge of the church, okay. But only because the males can't get to the higher positions. It's not like any female can order them around. If you're in a hierarchy, you obey to those who are higher than you.
Again, I'll insist that that being part of the cult don't mean they need to be part of the hierarchy. To take an example, all christians aren't priests. And in this case, the priestess can only order those males who are actually below them, like a bishop can ordera priest or something like that.
I know what you're saying. However, I think the point they're raising is one beautifully illustrated in the War of the Spider Queen. When Hally defects, everyone is eager to show her around and tell her of all the mysteries of the Dark Lady.
Ryld, on the other hand, basically just sits outside and they don't even bother sending another male to talk to them. It's left a nasty taste in the mouths of a lot of (probably mostly male) readers.
To take an example, all christians aren't priests.
Lets not bring up real-world religious parallels, that's just begging for a CoC violation. I will say, however, that the policies of some real-world religious hierarchies have resulted in a lot of alienation and resentment. Why would drow males want to put up with that when other choices are available? Elistraee is not the Goddess of menstruation or something else that logically applies only to females, and no theological justification is given to explain why males can't be priest, leading one to assume its just an arbitrary prejiduce on Elistraee's part.
Except in my game, where she is alive and well. ;)
Now the REAL reason why I posted - Is it just me, or does anyone else JUST LOVE the title of this thred?
I like to read it like a Caveman, or an Orc... :D
You just made my night. :D
Lets not bring up real-world religious parallels, that's just begging for a CoC violation.
-There's no problem with analogies, so long as they are relevant, and are in a tasteful manner.
...and no theological justification is given to explain why males can't be priest, leading one to assume its just an arbitrary prejiduce on Elistraee's part.
-Males can be priests, but they need to jump through hoops and hurdles, one being being transformed into females.
-Anyway, it isn't necessarily a prejudice on the part of Eilistraee herself, but on her church.
-They're in charge. They tell you what to do, and you do it. I don't know about you, but that sure sounds like the definition of submitting yourself to them.
-Now, what Drow male, just escaped from Lolthite society, would go running into this situation arms wide open?
Um...not really. I can't think of many instances in which a character shares the faith with a cleric and that person command them to do something anywhere in Realms lore. So I really don't think clerics of a faith crack the whip so to speak with their followers.
I mean I am sure it has happen but as many times I have seen followers not follow those commands. I mean the role of priesthood is sometimes just guidence and not authority especialy in a chaotic good faith.
I think part of the problem is people look at it though either modern day real world PC glasses or look at relgion in our own historical sense. Sure back in our history people did join the faith to gain power...but then again some actual felt the calling...in a world where the gods actualy care how they are represented by they clergy I think the gods would look to those who actual feel the calling then those who are just in it to gain power.(of course this excludes most evil religion which are all about gaining power).
Anyway I am wondering why they couldn't juast make her Correlian's Exarch of Redemption...I mean it would make her fans happy, she would less visiable to those who don't like her, and they could then just ignore her....
Um...not really. I can't think of many instances in which a character shares the faith with a cleric and that person command them to do something anywhere in Realms lore. So I really don't think clerics of a faith crack the whip so to speak with their followers.
Well it may be because all Eli followers tend to huddle together for mutual survival with the clerics in control.
-Most- Drow would not be able to survive in drow society unless they gave into darker methods and motives. The society virtually foisted it upon you, whether or not you liked it was irrelevant. You killed or got killed.
Now, while there could certainly have been Drow living outside of the Lolthite Societies it must be questioned if they were really enough to sustain Eilistraee's divine essence. Such societies, if discovered, would be hunted endlessly by Lolthites looking to destroy them.
How could most Drow reasonably secretly worship Eilistraee while living in Drow Society? They could not, at least not in any significant numbers, and these were the people she was seeking to redeem.
Thus one of the reasons the Masked Lady made more sense was because of the obvious alignment shift from chaotic good to chaotic neutral, enabling her to accept all Drow into the fold regardless of where they fell on the good-evil axis. This would be in addition to the restructuring of the church for gender equality.
As Lord Karsus pointed out, "moonlight doesn't exist without shadows, and shadows don't exist without moonlight."
No, you are going to focus your main efforts on those in charge, changing the society from the top down while still holding out your hand to those in "lesser positions". To try it the other way is simply asking for a wholesale slaughter of those involved. So what out darling lady of the Moonlight did was give the daughters another option. Instead of following Her psychotic mother, they could follow Her, thereby giving Her a "power-base" to work within the societal mandates of the society....not to mention the fact that after years of being beaten, abused, looked down on, ect. by their sisters/mothers/anyone with breasts, if the males were in charge of the clergy, how many of them would truly be able to resist "getting some of their own back", totally destroying what Eli was working for to begin with. As for the females, it gave them a familiar framework, i.e. something that they had grown up with, just kinder and gentler, showing that there were other options.
THAT is why Her church was ran the way it was, not because of some "women are better" dogma, but because it was a brighter mirror held up to drow society, showing what it COULD be like.
Wulfe
THAT is why Her church was ran the way it was, not because of some "women are better" dogma, but because it was a brighter mirror held up to drow society, showing what it COULD be like.
Doesn't that encourage the habits that will lead to the Drow returning to evil? Also, Drow society won't work like that because males aren't naturally obedient in Drow society. They have no respect for the spiritual authority of the women, they follow them out of fear. If a woman ordered a man to jump, he would. If he ordered them to pick daisies and share his feelings, he'd stab her in the heart and feed her to piranhas.
That's the problem with Eli's church. All of her teachings are looked at as weak. Frankly, saying "And males are still inferior" just means that Vhaeraunites has a better group.
The Masked Lady being CN also is a dumb idea because then there's no point to the Church, is there? Folk like Qilue will just leave for Mielikki because they came for REDEMPTION.
Note: I only used her ONCE ever in any campaign but I always saw her as something that was needed, a light against the darkness. Why must the young die and the old linger on? (elli is the young, core and lolth are the old...being the parents and all)
Kill corellon and lolth, I wanna see what happens in that scenario instead e.e
Are you a DM?
If not, are you interested in being one?
If so, then step up to the plate and explore this option in your games.....
Or discuss the idea with your DM.
I just don't get why so many of you feel compelled to use every shred of everything the company (wether it be it WoTC or TSR before them) publishes on a subject.
The very best thing about these games is that you can use as much or as little published material you want and each game becomes a unique experience. So if you want certain characters to live/die? Just do it.
Doesn't that encourage the habits that will lead to the Drow returning to evil? Also, Drow society won't work like that because males aren't naturally obedient in Drow society. They have no respect for the spiritual authority of the women, they follow them out of fear. If a woman ordered a man to jump, he would. If he ordered them to pick daisies and share his feelings, he'd stab her in the heart and feed her to piranhas.
That's the problem with Eli's church. All of her teachings are looked at as weak. Frankly, saying "And males are still inferior" just means that Vhaeraunites has a better group.
The Masked Lady being CN also is a dumb idea because then there's no point to the Church, is there? Folk like Qilue will just leave for Mielikki because they came for REDEMPTION.
Well, who is to say that the church wouldnt have changed the way it was ran as Eli started to reach Her goals. When trying to change a society, it works best if you start with something similar to that society, but better. Once you have a good portion of those in power on your side, then you start to slowly change things to bring them more in like with the way that you really want them to work. Eli's church was a place for those that relized that ultimately drow society was self-defeating and that their "mother goddess" was nothing more then a sadistic bit** that made Joan Crawford look like June Cleaver. Give the people something better, but similar to what they are used to and you garner more support then throwing something brand new at them...to make a RW example that will probably get me yelled at, but works well in this instance, look at afganistan....they had a theocracy for years..it was what the people were used to...then taht is toppled and instead of a kinder more moderate theocracy, which would be something that the common people could at least understand, they get a "democracy" thrown at them. And people wonder why the populace didnt take to the idea immediatly. This is the same thing...Eli was trying to "work within the system" so to speak...IMO, once her goals were reached, things would have started to shift towards more of a society like the other elves have. After all, it isn'y like she wouldnt have had the rest of the Seldarine to help Her.....oh..wait..She wouldn't as they never really existed....but thats another rant completely
My .02.
But yes, I don't think El would be any more successful by fostering sexism than she would be by trying to talk about equal relationships.
My .02.
I can see your point, however we are talking about a deity here. Their "longterm" goals can take eons to come to fruition, and with that amount of time, you can subtly change things so that no one even realizes that they are being changed.
Um...not really. I can't think of many instances in which a character shares the faith with a cleric and that person command them to do something anywhere in Realms lore. So I really don't think clerics of a faith crack the whip so to speak with their followers.
-This is the structure of a hierarchy, as I said. Those in charge command those who are below them in station. Priestess' of Eilistraee are in charge. Lay worshipers living within Eilistraeean enclaves are below them in station, included among them all of Eilistraee's male faithful.
I think part of the problem is people look at it though either modern day real world PC glasses or look at relgion in our own historical sense. Sure back in our history people did join the faith to gain power...but then again some actual felt the calling...in a world where the gods actualy care how they are represented by they clergy I think the gods would look to those who actual feel the calling then those who are just in it to gain power.(of course this excludes most evil religion which are all about gaining power).
-To be honest, I don't think you are examining the situation as a Drow male. Imagine yourself suddenly freed from Lolthite society. You've been subjected to years and years of beatings, torture, violence, and horror. You finally become sick of it, and flee. You eventually come to the surface. You find yourself approached by two Clerics. One is of Eilistraee, who brings with her a church that promises salvation and peace. The other is of Vhaeraun, who brings with him promises of empowerment and station upgrade. Eilistraee brings with her a matriarchy, whereas Vhaeraun brings with him a patriarchy. Having been raised as a Drow, you know- or feel- that you cannot trust either group 100%. Who would you be willing to continue your travels with? Eilistraee or Vhaeraun, knowing nothing of them except for that they are both the enemies of Lolth.
Ok, there has been a lot of bi***ing about how the church of dear Eli was ran...but look at it this way....it is the most logical set-up. Her long-term goal was the redemption of the ENTIRE drow race.
-The way that is was run is cited as the most illogical way to guarantee the redemption of the ENTIRE Drow race. In it's presentation, and not necessarily their motives/actions, they push 50% of the entire race away.
Are you a DM?
If not, are you interested in being one?
If so, then step up to the plate and explore this option in your games.....
Or discuss the idea with your DM.
I just don't get why so many of you feel compelled to use every shred of everything the company (wether it be it WoTC or TSR before them) publishes on a subject.
The very best thing about these games is that you can use as much or as little published material you want and each game becomes a unique experience. So if you want certain characters to live/die? Just do it.
The Masked Lady being CN also is a dumb idea because then there's no point to the Church, is there? Folk like Qilue will just leave for Mielikki because they came for REDEMPTION.
Because being CG she can't properly condone or accept 95% of Drow Society that is outright evil. Eilistraee was never meant to be the savior and redeemer of the Drow, at least not in my mind, but rather the bridge from which Drow seeking redemption cross in order to return to the Seldarine. She was like Shevarash and Fenmarel Mestarine, on the outside looking in, a part of and apart from the Seldarine.
How can a CG Eilistraee accept a female Drow who has killed three of her brothers out of spite, two of her sisters in a bid for power, and her own mother - who she gleefully tortured - in an attempt to replace her? How can she accept a former Cleric of Lolth, who eventually came to an epiphany and saw the truth: Lolth is only using the Drow and cares nothing for them.
Eilistraee couldn't accept such an evil drow, but as the Masked Lady she could. The Masked Lady may have been CN but she could have also had CG tendencies. Sure, she lets evil drow join. Then once they've accepted the bait (the promise of a better way), that is when she begins to de-drowify them and combat all the poison Lolth has poured into their ear generation after generation.
Plus CN Eilistraee has a better chance of combating her mother, as her followers could more easily blend into Lolthite society and stage rebellions and coups. It is a war - a war that reflects very much what Drow society is all about: daughter against mother.
Meanwhile, as the war rages on, some drow will eventually find their way back to the light, and be redeemed - and allowed to rejoin the Seldarine. However, the type of redemption sought has to come from within, it can't come from Eilistraee or any outside source, Eilistraee can only be a catalyst for change and offer a different path. And the path she'd offer is a return to the Seldarine.
Sure, there may be some who join her who have no wish for that path, but those that serve her are battling against her mother. In doing this it makes it possible for others seeking redemption to find it.
Why couldn't she accept that drow if she actually sought to repent? She would not receive absolution immediately, but through Eilistraee she would have a means. Eilistraee would show her the way, whether the former Llohtite would walk on it is her own choice. At the end of it all, even a drow could seek redemption - the majority simply doesn't do so.
Nottaht just refusing Lloth means changing one's alignment, but that is a different topic.
Your last statement is my point, really. Eilistraee is at war with her mother. Only a naive person would believe that such a war, especially with Lolth, is going to be all sunshine and rainbows. Her followers can dance naked all they want in the moonlight, but it isn't going to save or redeem more drow.
It takes more than simply hiding away in enclaves and accepting whoever is lucky enough to survive running away. You have to actually integrate within Drow society as a whole, and work toward toppling it from the top down.
To do that, you're going to eventually use less-than-good methods and means. You can't just show up with a smile on your face and ask them to kindly lay down their weapons, abandon their ways - the only ways they've ever known - and expect the majority of Drow to embrace it. You can barely expect a minority of Drow to embrace it. To be successful, you'll have to be just as cunning and just as devious as a Lolthite. In many ways you'll have to be even moreso.
After all, imagine a city that was under the rule of the Church of Lolth. Followers of the Masked Lady infiltrate that city and overthrow that Church, setting up in its place the Church of Eilistraee. Now, instead of waiting for those who wished to flee the city to come to them, they've come to the city. They can now reach out to a much larger number of Drow than before and that opens up the path of redemption to many who otherwise might not have sought it. This includes future generations of Drow.
Sure, you have to compromise yourself a bit, but if you take the ends justifies the means approach you'll find yourself in a much better position to accomplish your stated goals. After all, as I said, Eilistraee wasn't the "messiah" of the Drow as she was painted out to be in the books. At least not to me. She was simply the bridge between the Dark Seldarine and the Seldarine. She offered the opportunity for redemption, but there is no reason -all- of her followers need to accept it. If that were the case, then she'd hardly even be a demigoddess. This is why the Masked Lady made more sense.
Because being CG she can't properly condone or accept 95% of Drow Society that is outright evil. Eilistraee was never meant to be the savior and redeemer of the Drow, at least not in my mind, but rather the bridge from which Drow seeking redemption cross in order to return to the Seldarine. She was like Shevarash and Fenmarel Mestarine, on the outside looking in, a part of and apart from the Seldarine.
I disagree, she's there to offer a path of clean slate and forgiveness to Drow. A chance to shed one's evil ways and become a good person. The ultimate goal is not CN status but CG status with most being CN and trying to be better.
And yes, 95% are evil and just fine at it. Becoming CN, essentially, means that they'll never ever be accepted in Arvandor----defeating the point.
Is Eli's path a failed one? Uh yes, that's part of her charm.
Plus CN Eilistraee has a better chance of combating her mother...
-Exactly. People (myself included) seem to get "lost" with the "pretty phrases". Eilistraee's purpose wasn't to clean the Drow of a blight they had within them, and redeem them and be their 'savior'. It was to free them from the and their society evil that is Lolth.
-Exactly. People (myself included) seem to get "lost" with the "pretty phrases". Eilistraee's purpose wasn't to clean the Drow of a blight they had within them, and redeem them and be their 'savior'. It was to free them from the and their society evil that is Lolth.
....
No it wasn't. If Eli wanted to just kill Lolth then she'd be no different than the Elvish God of Vengeance. In fact, the two deities could not be more different. Eli couldn't care less about waging war against Lolth. If you missed it, Eli never actually made raids against the Underdark or tried to destroy the Drow that follow Lolth. In fact she was almost 100% about conversion.
....
No it wasn't. If Eli wanted to just kill Lolth then she'd be no different than the Elvish God of Vengeance. In fact, the two deities could not be more different. Eli couldn't care less about waging war against Lolth. If you missed it, Eli never actually made raids against the Underdark or tried to destroy the Drow that follow Lolth. In fact she was almost 100% about conversion.
-I'm not sure what you point is, but none of that has to do with what I actually wrote. Eilistraee exists to "provide a balance", in her own words (E:IoF). Her purpose isn't to "redeem" and "sanctify" the Drow race, from some internal, nonsensical curse. Her purpose is oppose Lolth, and to give a home to disenfranchised Drow who leave the influence of Lolth. Not proactivley, but passivley.
I disagree, she's there to offer a path of clean slate and forgiveness to Drow. A chance to shed one's evil ways and become a good person. The ultimate goal is not CN status but CG status with most being CN and trying to be better.
And yes, 95% are evil and just fine at it. Becoming CN, essentially, means that they'll never ever be accepted in Arvandor----defeating the point.
CN does not equal CE. There are CN gods sitting in Arvandor. Shevarash, for example, is not CG. It is not as if those who worship Eilistraee, who happen only to go as far as CN but not CG are suddenly cast into the Demonweb Pits upon death.
If you view Eilistraee as the "bridge" between the Seldarine and Lolth worshiping Drow, does it not make more sense for her to be CN, a concept that they can better grasp, even if imperfect in the eyes of the Seldarine?
Is Eli's path a failed one? Uh yes, that's part of her charm.
Drow aren't stupid. A drow will recognize her path as a failed one and simply will not follow. If Eilistraee does not realize this, then that only makes her an idiot, and if that is the case then it is all well and good that she is dead as it was inevitable.
However, it didn't have to be that way. Had she approached things differently, she could have lived and perhaps have been successful in her ultimate goal. The Drow would -never- be redeemed so long as Lolth lived. What appealed to me the most about Eilistraee and Lolth was the dynamic that you saw in the mortal world reflected in the divine: daughter against mother.
That should have been Eilistraees primary goal the destruction of Lolth, because only in her destruction could she end the evil influence she had over the drow. Only then could she actually begin moving them - all of them - toward redemption.
For every battle Eilistraee could have won in that war could have meant a hundred or more drow redeemed. Instead, she left them to fend for themselves and ultimately she left them within the clutches of Lolth. Eilistraee and her failure has cost the Drow their only hope of salvation. The bridge that once existed is now lost, because of her foolishness and inability to accept what was necessary in order to win.
CN does not equal CE. There are CN gods sitting in Arvandor. Shevarash, for example, is not CG. It is not as if those who worship Eilistraee, who happen only to go as far as CN but not CG are suddenly cast into the Demonweb Pits upon death.
Shevarash in my games fell to the path of evil and our player characters destroyed him. Fundamentally, the concept in our games was that by devoting himself to such a Non-Elvish concept as Vengeance and Hatred over love that he was destined to become a force for evil every bit as destructive as Lolth.
That doesn't apply to canon, obviously, but my opinion of Shevarash is he's a doomed deity. Also, all CE followers of Shevarash do not go to Arvandor in my games. They are mercifully obliterated upon death by their god.
If you view Eilistraee as the "bridge" between the Seldarine and Lolth worshiping Drow, does it not make more sense for her to be CN, a concept that they can better grasp, even if imperfect in the eyes of the Seldarine?
That's, assuming, you see the Seldarine as the end. My interpretation is that Elistraee is not leading these people to Corellon. She's leading them to Eilistraee. Should the Dark Maiden order them to sack and destroy a bunch of Seldarine temples, they will, because they don't care about the Seldarine in the slightest. They worship Eilistraee and Eilistraee is their salvation. She is the end and their redemption.
Which also brings us to the problem that if she were CN, then she's got CE followers and there's no reason to change them. In effect, really, there's no point to worshiping Eilistraee because she's only slightly different from her mom.
Drow aren't stupid. A drow will recognize her path as a failed one and simply will not follow. If Eilistraee does not realize this, then that only makes her an idiot, and if that is the case then it is all well and good that she is dead as it was inevitable.
And their other choice is eternal damnation in the Pits of Chaos. "Winning" in the concept of the Forgotten Realms Cosmology means that you're going to spend the rest of your life as a Demon in a realm that formerly part of the Abyss. Lolth will probably always have the Dark Elves as her people because the fundamental Dark Elf is just, at heart, no damn good.
However, the point is not to win but to keep the path of redemption open. Because every individual soul matters. Better to save 5% of the Drow than win the war by becoming Lolth. Corellon, if he wanted to, could have just destroyed Lolth at any given time. He doesn't care enough to. The Dark Elves are no longer Elves as far as he's concerned. They're the children of the Spider Queen.
Eli, is the chance for them to be treated as Elves again.
That should have been Eilistraees primary goal the destruction of Lolth, because only in her destruction could she end the evil influence she had over the drow. Only then could she actually begin moving them - all of them - toward redemption.
Except, if Lolth had died in the Spell Plague, then I can guarantee you the new edition would have the primary patron of the Drow be Shar. Lolth isn't the source for all evil of the Drow. The source for all evil of the Drow is that the Drow are a race of evil. If Eli had destroyed Lolth, she would have gained nothing because really, the Drow don't want what she's selling.
There's Ghaundaur, Vhaeraun, Shar, Loviatar, Beshaba, and other goddesses. Kiaransalee too.
For every battle Eilistraee could have won in that war could have meant a hundred or more drow redeemed. Instead, she left them to fend for themselves and ultimately she left them within the clutches of Lolth. Eilistraee and her failure has cost the Drow their only hope of salvation. The bridge that once existed is now lost, because of her foolishness and inability to accept what was necessary in order to win.
Part of why I hated the Masked Lady concept is the fact that the followers of Vhaeraun have nothing to gain from Eli. She's got nothing to offer them because they don't want redemption and they don't care to follow a female goddess. Nor, do they particularly care about dancing in the Moonlight.
A more realistic response was, upon Vhaeraun's death, they all start worshiping Mask or Bane.
Again, Eilistraee was the path / bridge to get to the Seldarine. The Seldarine is not Corellon. It is a pantheon of deities which he happens to lead, a pantheon by the way, that Eilistraee is also considered a part of - and a part from. She had two divine realms, one in Arvandor and one in the Demonweb Pits.
As the Masked Lady it was a simple matter to divide her followers as thus: the Good and Neutral go to Arvandor and the Evil go to the Demonweb Pits. At least Eilistraee's side of the Pits is less bad than Lolth's, so even if you go to "hell" as it were, it was least a lesser one.
She is giving you a choice: You can remain on the path of Lolth or you can join her. On Lolth's path you're certain to have a horrific and horrible afterlife, but on her path you at least have the chance of something better.
Also, you seem to think that CN is somehow equated with evil or something. That is simply not the case. You can be CN and lean toward good, but still recognize that sometimes morality gets in the way of the "greater good".
You seem to embrace everything I despised about Eilistraee. She was simply an illogical deity from conception. The Masked Lady made sense it took the best that Vhaeraun had to offer and the best that Eilistraee had to offer and combined it into a single deity.
I agree that it was dumb to have the followers of Vhaeraun blindly flip the way they did. I hate it when novels portray clerics as fickle god hoppers.
However, there are certainly drow more willingly to follow her as the Masked Lady than either of the two separate deities.
I suppose I hate Eilistraee as CG because I view her as cowardly. She isn't heroic. She's a coward. Being a hero involves stepping up and making a sacrifice. It means making hard choices. It means giving up things so others do not. Eilistraee gave up nothing, and in the end doomed the drow through her foolish vainty self-sacrifice. It was a martyrdom without purpose, a martyrdom that completely defeated the point.
She was unable to make the hard decisions that would have given her true victory. She did not have to become the new Lolth, but she did have to accept that some Drow simply did not care for redemption and that those Drow were fundamental in helping save those that did seek it. By using them against her mother she could have defeated her, and while there would have been other gods who would try and make headway in with the Drow, they'd still have to compete against a TRUE Drow Goddess. The Drow are nothing if not vain, and it is unlikely that vast amounts of Drow are suddenly going to begin worshiping Human gods simply because Lolth dies. Especially if Eilistraee is willing to accept them just the way they are, but casually nudge them in the right direction.
After all, even if the first generation of Drow is lost, so long as she remains true to her goal after the death of Lolth, with each passing generation more and more Drow will find redemption, until eventually all Drow are redeemed. By that time Lolth will have become a forgotten memory and Eilistraee would have gradually been able to shift back toward CG.
You seem to embrace everything I despised about Eilistraee. She was simply an illogical deity from conception. The Masked Lady made sense it took the best that Vhaeraun had to offer and the best that Eilistraee had to offer and combined it into a single deity.
My conception of Eilistraee, Meldread, is she's a deity of despised Outcasts and Redemption. I often considered making EIlistraee the goddess of Half-Elves in my campaign to be honest because it would fit my conception of the goddess that people who will never be accepted by anyone go to this deity.
Also, you seem to think that CN is somehow equated with evil or something. That is simply not the case. You can be CN and lean toward good, but still recognize that sometimes morality gets in the way of the "greater good".
I don't consider Chaotic Neutral to be bad, it's one of my favorite alignments. I do, however, think that if you start equating Chaotic Neutral with something that Pre-Unaligned Corellon would approve of then the whole idea of redemption loses its importance. The *FUN* of the Eili worshiping Elves is that they're CN folk trying to be good. If they're CE folk trying to be CN, that's a drastically different feel.
You seem to embrace everything I despised about Eilistraee. She was simply an illogical deity from conception. The Masked Lady made sense it took the best that Vhaeraun had to offer and the best that Eilistraee had to offer and combined it into a single deity.
The result, for me, is a deity that has none of the appeal of either. Vhaeraun was a frequent NPC as the Jarlaxle of the Gods. Evil to the core? Yes. However, he lacked the insanity and Demonic malevolence of his mother. A great god for lovable rogues and scheming backstabbers.
Eilstraee is the goddess for people who like Lost causes and Longshots. She's the Godesss of the X-men. When Charles Xavier says "Why not just kill Magneto and start blowing up Friends of Humanity buildings" then he's actually going to make some progress. However, that's dramatically less interesting.
It's not FUNNY anymore when player characters freak at the prospect of falling into the hands of a bunch of Drow only to find they're a bunch of hippie nude dancers. CN isn't evil, but they might slit the throats of the PCs to protect their secrecy.
However, there are certainly drow more willingly to follow her as the Masked Lady than either of the two separate deities.
Yes, but really, does she gain anything? I assume the Chaotic Good will start abandoning her in droves once they realize their goddess no longer cares about love, friendship, or living in harmony with nature. It's the perks of the Light Side of the Force.
I suppose I hate Eilistraee as CG because I view her as cowardly. She isn't heroic. She's a coward. Being a hero involves stepping up and making a sacrifice. It means making hard choices. It means giving up things so others do not. Eilistraee gave up nothing, and in the end doomed the drow through her foolish vainty self-sacrifice. It was a martyrdom without purpose, a martyrdom that completely defeated the point.
Well it just boils down to the fact, Meldread, it wasn't a war. Part of why I hated Lolth as a Greater Goddess is it ruins the best part of the Corellon/Lolth relationship. AT ANY TIME, Corellon could crush her like an insect. She literally means nothing to him and he could walk into the Demonweb pits and lop off her head tomorrow.
Once you understand that, it's easier to appreciate that Eilistraee wasn't interested in winning a conflict with Lolth. She was there for the people who wanted something else. The majority of the Drow are willingly evil. Eili isn't interested in converting them to be honest. That doesn't fit her Chaotic Good mindset.
Your view strikes me as the kind you'd get from Amaunator, convert by the sword.
The Drow are nothing if not vain, and it is unlikely that vast amounts of Drow are suddenly going to begin worshiping Human gods simply because Lolth dies. Especially if Eilistraee is willing to accept them just the way they are, but casually nudge them in the right direction.
And in the end, most Drow will never reform because the lesson of the Lady Penitent Trilogy is some people are just no damned good.
And in the end, most Drow will never reform because the lesson of the Lady Penitent Trilogy is some people are just no damned good.
-Well, mind you, the Lady Penitent trilogy gets a 'D', in terms of rectifying it with the universe at large, but that isn't what I gleamed from it. What I came off after finishing it was that you're damned because of an 'Original Sin' sort of concept, through no fault of your own.
Also, this is the game that is building up to a massive number of Tiefling heroes.
-All while basically ignoring the fact that having a 'pure' bloodline, dating back to Ilythiir or Miyeritar, would be mostly impossible, given the amount of time and intermingling.
Maybe. Drow society has been shown at equal parts to be reasonably egalitarian (in terms of willingness to kill to rise to the top) and also being extremely bizarre in its mating practices. It'd be wrong to automatically assume human practices apply to them about genetic seed spreading about.
But yes, even if I stretch that as far as I can, it's extremely unlikely. That is, unless Drow of different cities simply do not ever breed with one another.
Maybe. Drow society has been shown at equal parts to be reasonably egalitarian (in terms of willingness to kill to rise to the top) and also being extremely bizarre in its mating practices. It'd be wrong to automatically assume human practices apply to them about genetic seed spreading about.
But yes, even if I stretch that as far as I can, it's extremely unlikely. That is, unless Drow of different cities simply do not ever breed with one another.
-I was more referring to the relative chaos in which Miyeritar disappeared, and those survivors migrated to Ilythiir, and the chaos of the Descent, in which everyone went into the Underdark, mixed, and founded one of two nations: Guallidurth or Telantiwar.
-I was more referring to the relative chaos in which Miyeritar disappeared, and those survivors migrated to Ilythiir, and the chaos of the Descent, in which everyone went into the Underdark, mixed, and founded one of two nations: Guallidurth or Telantiwar.
Most drow cities we know of were created long (i.e. thousands of years) after the Descent. I would assume that Ilythiir and Miyeritar were not the only nations where dark elves lived, e.g. Dun-Tharos in the Rawlinswood was a former dark elven stronghold (said to be created by Ilythiiri (IMHO out of convenience (i.e. not to have to think about more dark elven realms and thus lore) ) ) and this one is a long distance off Miyeritar as well as Ilythiir. It isn't not beyond imagination to assume that there were more dark elven tribes / clans / houses or nations about at the time of the Descent, though they were not as deeply involved in politics and Realms-shaping to be involved into a History that focuses on big events. It is much like looking at a general Roman history, which will not include all info there is. Just MHO, of course.
If they're CE folk trying to be CN, that's a drastically different feel.
I don't disagree. Of course, I think it's a feel that makes more sense (logically) for the Drow.
CN isn't evil, but they might slit the throats of the PCs to protect their secrecy.
Again, that's logical for the Drow. If their identities are uncovered it could mean their death. Living in the Underdark is tough. Especially when you've earned the personal enmity of Lolth and her followers.
Yes, but really, does she gain anything? I assume the Chaotic Good will start abandoning her in droves once they realize their goddess no longer cares about love, friendship, or living in harmony with nature. It's the perks of the Light Side of the Force.
Maybe, that's certainly possible. Where would they go? Likely to one of the other Seldarine, so it's still a win for Eilistraee in the end.
Well it just boils down to the fact, Meldread, it wasn't a war. Part of why I hated Lolth as a Greater Goddess is it ruins the best part of the Corellon/Lolth relationship. AT ANY TIME, Corellon could crush her like an insect. She literally means nothing to him and he could walk into the Demonweb pits and lop off her head tomorrow.
I disagree. I don't think Corellon could ever do that. He might have been able to in the beginning, but beyond a certain point - a point that passed long ago - I think that no longer became a viable option. When Lolth became a Greater God, well... that puts things in serious prospective. She's growing in power. She's becoming more dangerous. That could have easily prompted the needed change in Eilistraee.
Your view strikes me as the kind you'd get from Amaunator, convert by the sword.
Yes, well it explains why I like Amaunator so much. :P I am -very- convert by the sword or die by the sword. I love my religious zealots, the more fanatical and dangerous the better. ;)
The reason I disliked Eilistraee before she became the Masked Lady was that, let's face it, she was a wimp. If anything Lolth should have killed her long ago. Her existence made no sense. Her followers would have been virtually nil.
Actually Elistraees sacrifice was to save a large portion of the drow from the darkness that was Wendonais' taint. They are now Dark Elves under Corellons protection, and he is championing them now.
-RW
Yeah this did strike me as more of a question for the book, but here it is.
Again, that's logical for the Drow. If their identities are uncovered it could mean their death. Living in the Underdark is tough. Especially when you've earned the personal enmity of Lolth and her followers.
And thus, the player characters have no reason to want to be their friend and protect them from persecution. Which is what player characters should do for Eli Drow.
Maybe, that's certainly possible. Where would they go? Likely to one of the other Seldarine, so it's still a win for Eilistraee in the end.
Well in 4E, just as likely to one of the human gods. Also, they might wage war on their surface dwelling kin. One of the oddities I had with Daughter of the Drow was why Vhaeraun and Eli hated each other so much when you'd think they'd quietly ignore one another.
I disagree. I don't think Corellon could ever do that. He might have been able to in the beginning, but beyond a certain point - a point that passed long ago - I think that no longer became a viable option. When Lolth became a Greater God, well... that puts things in serious prospective. She's growing in power. She's becoming more dangerous. That could have easily prompted the needed change in Eilistraee.
Maybe, but Elistraee still has Corellon and the rest of the Seldraine behind her. There's nothing preventing The Triune Goddess, Corellon, Shevarash, and Eli from attacking all at once. It was the argument that people had about why Sune, Lathander, and Tyr didn't kill Cyric.
Dramatically, I consider it more interesting this way and it's why Lolth is still a Lesser Goddess in my games.
Yes, well it explains why I like Amaunator so much. I am -very- convert by the sword or die by the sword. I love my religious zealots, the more fanatical and dangerous the better.
Yes, well I play up the Chaotic in Chaotic Good. One of the long standing jokes in my game is the Gold Elves are mostly Lawful Good and their ascribed personality traits to Corellon (deep respect for tradition, stern patriarchy, etc) in no way reflect his actual personality. I had the same for Lathander.
Personal freedom of choice, for good or ill, is Corellon's big thing. If all the Elves stopped worshiping him, he'd probably just make a new race and shrug.
The reason I disliked Eilistraee before she became the Masked Lady was that, let's face it, she was a wimp. If anything Lolth should have killed her long ago. Her existence made no sense. Her followers would have been virtually nil.
Then Corellon would kill Lolth, which is another reason why I felt the Lady Penitant made no sense.
In any case, I'm keeping Eli in my game (having her replace Mielikki). She remains the "valve" for the Drow of society that want to escape the oppression of Lolth while the rest can continue in their own debased evil.
Well, with the need to simplify so that those who don't want to make any effort to craft plausible scenarios, and since her name was so hard to spell and say, it was just convenient to get rid of her. And it just wasn't believable that any drow wanted to escape their situations, because they had no choice due to original sin.
( If the sarcasm in above post offends anyone, all complaints can go to my secretary, Helen Waite)
Well, with the need to simplify so that those who don't want to make any effort to craft plausible scenarios, and since her name was so hard to spell and say, it was just convenient to get rid of her. And it just wasn't believable that any drow wanted to escape their situations, because they had no choice due to original sin.
Yet, they kept Angharradh.
But actually, I had no problem with the idea plenty of Drow wanted to leave the society. It's established that most Drow are actually quite miserable. Part of the reason Elistraee is so brutally suppressed and other gods is that ANY deity is better than serving her unless you're an insane psychotic Machiavellian plotter that's also a woman (and ironically, Lolth also supports male priests in the worship of Moander and other aspects)
I have always got the impression that the average Drow is not so different from the average human, albeit much smarter and skilled at staying alive, in that he'd rather NOT have to look over his back for a psychotic priestess' knife.
Most drow cities we know of were created long (i.e. thousands of years) after the Descent.
-Guallidurth and Telantiwar (Am I the only one who finds it humorous that a Drow city has "anti war" in it's name?), the two that I was specifically citing sprung up in -9,600 DR, four hundred years after the Descent of the Drow. These two cities, we know housed the majority of the Drow population at the time, Miyeritari, Ilythiiri, and otherwise. It wouldn't be until -7,600 that Telantiwar fell, and there began the great exodus that founded many of the Drow cities we know today. So, there's still two thousand years of living amongst each other.
-Long story short, it's highly implausible, and "plot forced" that Drow of "pure" linage one way or the other exist in the 1370s.
-Guallidurth and Telantiwar (Am I the only one who finds it humorous that a Drow city has "anti war" in it's name?), the two that I was specifically citing sprung up in -9,600 DR, four hundred years after the Descent of the Drow.
I just noted that "most" of the 40odd cities we know of were most likely (else there would surely have been a mentioning here and there) were founded much later. Unless I am mistaken, Guallidurth got its history tag only in TGHotR?
These two cities, we know housed the majority of the Drow population at the time, Miyeritari, Ilythiiri, and otherwise.
Nope. You assume that. No-one told and nothing tells us who housed any majority or minority at the time. Not being fickle here, but let's just keep to the facts, shall we not?!
It wouldn't be until -7,600 that Telantiwar fell, and there began the great exodus that founded many of the Drow cities we know today. So, there's still two thousand years of living amongst each other.
As I said, we just know of Telantiwar being old and that it fell, nothing more and nothing less. Nothing on any great disapora.
Matter of factly, the mother city of Menzoberranzan and Ched Nasad, Golothaer, suffered a similar fate as Telantiwar, being ripped apart in a religious and inter-house war. That was before (sic!) the foundation of Menzo in -3,917 D.R.. We do also know that Golothaer was lying high up in the North, not that distant from Menzo and Ched Nasad, beyond Aryvandaar territory nonetheless. (Menzo box p.22).
Of course, House Melarn did came from Miyeritar folk and thus we might conclude that Miyeritar dark elves fled that way (Golothaer) too. Of course, as we know too, many drow of Menzo and Ched Nasad remained drow, so either southern dark elves or evil ones (which Miyeritar surely had its fare share too) made their way to that city (and others maybe) too?! It is all a bit edgy and to say anything "for sure" is tempting fate. Hence, I rather keep to the facts and leave the "tale-spinning" to the designers.
-Long story short, it's highly implausible, and "plot forced" that Drow of "pure" linage one way or the other exist in the 1370s.
Yep. Quite unlikely. In any case, most of that "pure lineage" stuff is said by a character and must not necessarily be taken as fact. Some sort of "DNS" link (so to speak) might actually suffice.
Unless I am mistaken, Guallidurth got its history tag only in TGHotR?
-Yes. I had to go back and edit Guallidurth's article in EoF because of this.
Nope. You assume that. No-one told and nothing tells us who housed any majority or minority at the time. Not being fickle here, but let's just keep to the facts, shall we not?!
-Unless the Drow race (composed of Ilythiiri, Miyeritari, and others) was wandering in the Underdark for thousands of years, and this is highly improbable.
As I said, we just know of Telantiwar being old and that it fell, nothing more and nothing less. Nothing on any great disapora.
-See AGHotR. The Drow flee in all directions, establishing new cities and nations in their wake. The city of Llurth Drier was founded by survivors of Telantiwar, for example.
Yep. Quite unlikely. In any case, most of that "pure lineage" stuff is said by a character and must not necessarily be taken as fact. Some sort of "DNS" link (so to speak) might actually suffice.
-This is the point I was making, concerning linage, bloodline purity, and intermingling/time. Note, though, that there was more to the pure linage schpiel that simply certain characters bloviating, since the final pages and the ending transformation clearly demonstrate that certain Drow were eligible for transformation, while the clear majority were not.
Actually Elistraees sacrifice was to save a large portion of the drow from the darkness that was Wendonais' taint. They are now Dark Elves under Corellons protection, and he is championing them now.
-RW
Does this mean that Liriel Baenre serves Corellon now?
Really would like to know what's up with her, Fyodor would be dead by now (unless he survived the various calamities and somehow extended his lifespan beyond human), but at under 200 years old, she'd still be young and probably fairly important in Ruathym.
Really, Liriel is my favorite drow (good aligned or otherwise).
us Eilistraee fans have no call to complain next to that
Liriel was a Priestess of Mystra though.
Anyway, to summarize.
The good aligned drow for the most part are now "Dark Elves" under Corellon and only the ones that remained evil still go by the term "Drow".
Eilistraee is dead...after merging with Vhaeraun (who actually wasn't sexist, he had male and female priests both, though his followers did have a tendency to enslave female drow and elves as well as children in order to supplement their own populations) and then martyring herself to redeem a small selection of drow who then became the dark elves under Corellon.
Some drow elves are infected with demon blood that may or may not serve as the basis for tieflings in 4e (though the Highwood elven-tieflings would work better for that).
To say the Elves are
off about it, is understating the issue.She's a Priestess of Mystra with a Werewolf Elf and a regular Elf friend.
I call them Corellon's Angels.
:p
Actually Elistraees sacrifice was to save a large portion of the drow from the darkness that was Wendonais' taint. They are now Dark Elves under Corellons protection, and he is championing them now.
-RW
Does this mean that Liriel Baenre serves Corellon now?
Interesting question, very interesting question indeed; however, I had thought that she'd switched from Cleric to either Rogue or Wizard.
I have to admit, at first I was extremely upset by the death of Eilistraee. However, if Corellon HAS indeed pulled his pointy-eared head out of his nether-sphincter and started accepting Drow who wished to repent and rejoin Elven society, that's another kettle of blind cave fish entirely.
Most likely, in MY campaign, Eil still lives, however it would be as an exarch under Corellon. IMHO, that'd be the best of both worlds.
*sigh* Either way, it is still better than the lot that the few survivors of Mulhorand got.
Most likely, in MY campaign, Eil still lives, however it would be as an exarch under Corellon. IMHO, that'd be the best of both worlds.
Personally I love the idea of the long-absent daughter being able to scamper home and sit beside her father after a long hard fight... even a deific one.
incidentally: they killed MYSTRA and TYR
us Eilistraee fans have no call to complain next to that
Uh, actually we do.
Mystra: Frumpy, fawning, and asking Elminster what's up.
Tyr: Loves justice, heavily armored.
Eilistraee: Hot, naked, and dancing with other hot naked dancing girls.
There's just no comparison here. If you don't understand that, you understand nothing. They took away the cheesecake goddess. Talk about a sales decline.
Naked dancing aside, none of the Realms deities are exactly chaste.
Her last appearance was in one of Elaine's short stories.
She's a Priestess of Mystra with a Werewolf Elf and a regular Elf friend.
I call them Corellon's Angels.
Interesting indeed.
*********
Oh, funny enough. Eilistraee IS chaste....they don't call her the Dark MAIDEN for nothing. I frequently joke that she's probably Hanali's biggest headache: ie, a beautiful, non-evil drow goddess that enjoys dancing naked by moonlight that refuses to get with anyone??
Eilistraee IS chaste....they don't call her the Dark MAIDEN for nothing. I frequently joke that she's probably Hanali's biggest headache: ie, a beautiful, non-evil drow goddess that enjoys dancing naked by moonlight that refuses to get with anyone??
Oh, she's QUITE "chaste". "Chaste" around the glade, "chaste" around the hedges, "chaste" around Hanali's pool in circles, and no one can quite seem to catch her...
Celibate means doesn't have sex. Let's clear that little bit up right now.
CLUE #1: "chaste" rhymes with "chased". Try reading it again, with that in mind.
CLUE # 2:
and no one can quite seem to catch her...