So what will future novels do? Will they continue upon the path of what has gone before using the threat of the magical menace that in 4th edition no longer really exists? Or will they "integrate" the new rules into the new books making glaring contradictions to what has gone before?
Psions for example used to be a deadly menace... Their powers were easily equal to a mages, mages powers were extreme enough to wipe out armys and all sorts of other things. Will future books, like say a future drizzt novel, conflict with previous books involving the same characters? Will Elminster for example who is the most feared mage in all the realms become equal to a random 20th level unsupported fighter like mages have become with the new rules? Will all the epic books dealing with what was previously magical supremacy be considered unwritten? Magic has taken a SERIOUS setback in WotC's quest for "game balance" and they have basically rendered all that has gone before pretty much meaningless for future campaigns.
Unmoved by the, rather pathetic, attempt to fan up the flames on another Edition War, I'll post with some sincerity. As far as I know, having only read 2 books that are set in 1479 DR, magic is still very rampant and powerful during this time. Artifacts and magical items of old (pre-spellplague) should work without any effort or differences. That's not to say that "ALL" magical items are immune to the changes in the Weave (or the destruction there-of) but more or less, magical items with stored eldritch energy are unchanged.
As for mages/wizards/psionics, that's pretty much up to the author rather than the rules. Mages/Wizards are very strong in the 4E rule-set and have as much power (or as little) as the person writing it desires. There are elements of 4E in the new novels such as dates, changed-lands, earth/sky/etc.. motes, and talkings about the Spellplague but those don't really affect the story much, at least in the two books I've read. As for psionics, I haven't really gave them much thought since I'm not really interested in them. The ardent looks to be pretty interesting, but the Battlemind and Psion I could do without. The Monk is probably the only Psionic class I'd try or even read a book about IMHO.
So what will future novels do? Will they continue upon the path of what has gone before using the threat of the magical menace that in 4th edition no longer really exists? Or will they "integrate" the new rules into the new books making glaring contradictions to what has gone before?
What magical menace? If you mean 100+ evil organizations that terrorize Faerun, then yes they're still there. If your talking about evil-doing deities that would see the populace of Faerun enslaved and under their control? Then yes. If you mean the large "extra terrestial" horrors such as the Abolethic Sovereignty then yes, they're still in existance and causing a rucus.
And as far as contradictions are concerned, could you give me some examples?
Hope some of this helped sooth your seething hatred for something I fully believe you've never read anything about nor gave much consideration about the people who utilize the products.
My problem with 4th edition isn't just the rules mechanics. It renders useless everything thats gone before in previous novels, has absolutely no versatility, and ITS NOT ROLE PLAYING. Everything about 4th edition screams "I am WoW: the paper version". If I wanted to play WoW I'd purchase an account. PLEASE WotC release a 5th edition soon... one that DOESNT revolve around combat only and doesn't eliminate all the wonderful novels that came before. I've been a D&D player for a long time and 4th just makes me sad.
As far as my original question is concerned I doubt they will incorporate many of the new rules. They're simply too ridiculous. I'm quite certain magic item creators will actually sell items for more than it costs to create them, and I'm equally sure magic will be displayed as a powerful force in the novels... more powerful than it is in the new 4th edition rules. To do otherwise would make a quest to stop the evil necromancer... who inexplicably can only control about 10 undead monsters... quite laughable.
I am hoping the authors are wise enough to know that a good story needs a better catch than what 4th edition is capable of giving.
Though I should mention that the 4E rule set is closer to most fantasy books then past editions, why because those "idiots with swords" can take down the high level casters and dragons like they do in so many stories. Including D&D novels.
On Dragons, they can live for centuries, but that does not mean a well armed and trained strike team can not take them down if they know what they are doing. and that is exactly what a group of adventurers is. A group of elite warriors who are capable of standing up to these threats. Especially a epic level party who are the ones who would face the oldest dragons, and are things that the dragons do not face often because well they are rare.
Also the magical menace of the high level casters is rarely some in combat spell, it is some super ritual that they are trying to perform, or some item they are going to make.
Or are you just upset because of the lack of caster gods?
Not to mention blatant idiocy on the part of the book writers. "Making a magic item costs as much as it costs to sell it..." YEAH RIGHT! think ANYONE would make something and then sell it for as much as it costs to make it? No sense whatsoever. Then making powers that can only be used on enemies and not friends even though using them on friends would often be better than on enemies? Making rituals prohibitively expensive? The quest for "game balance" has made D&D little better than a hack and slash. With noncombat and preperatory magic virtually nonexistant or prohibitively expensive, there's almost no point to playing anything other than a combat oriented character.
THAT is what I'm pissed about.
Take a look at the novels. Before going into any fight, large amounts of preperatory magic is used. Take for example the shandril epic. Every fight was both heavily combat AND magic oriented. Both physical combats and magical combats were initiated to attack/protect a single person with awesome magical powers. A wonderful story... one that couldn't even BEGIN to take place with the 4th edition rules. Think that the dracolich was gonna wait 10 minutes for elminster to cast a fly ritual on his powerful fighter ally? Think that the epic spell duels would have even begun to work if every powerful spell utilized required 10 minute rituals? NO! True, many of the books before have been physical combat oriented, but they also used huge amounts of preporatory magic before heading into battle. And nearly always there was some form caster support. And let's of course not forget the war of the spider queen novels. Another epic that couldn't even begin to be expressed in 4th edition rules as those too were heavily caster oriented. Or the Elminster epic. Or the books dealing with khelban blackstaff. Or the sellsword trilogy. All of which couldn't be done via 4th edition rules.
You could use the content of 4E Realms but use 3.5E rules, for example. Or if you prefer 1E, 2E or 3E Realms, use those. There's SO much material out there, you could adapt pretty much anything to whatever rule set you'd like at this point, including new 4E themed adventures backwards to older systems.
The world is your oyster.
Just keep playing with an older rules edition, problem solved.
You could use the content of 4E Realms but use 3.5E rules, for example. Or if you prefer 1E, 2E or 3E Realms, use those. There's SO much material out there, you could adapt pretty much anything to whatever rule set you'd like at this point, including new 4E themed adventures backwards to older systems.
The world is your oyster.
Just keep playing with an older rules edition, problem solved.
You could use the content of 4E Realms but use 3.5E rules, for example. Or if you prefer 1E, 2E or 3E Realms, use those. There's SO much material out there, you could adapt pretty much anything to whatever rule set you'd like at this point, including new 4E themed adventures backwards to older systems.
The world is your oyster.
QFT.
Just keep playing with an older rules edition, problem solved.
You could use the content of 4E Realms but use 3.5E rules, for example. Or if you prefer 1E, 2E or 3E Realms, use those. There's SO much material out there, you could adapt pretty much anything to whatever rule set you'd like at this point, including new 4E themed adventures backwards to older systems.
The world is your oyster.
QFT.
QBCIWS3T
not just lack of caster gods. Lack of any form of intelligent casting period. I dont mind magic being nerfed, but to take away nearly ALL of magic's versatility was just plain dumb. They took away everything that made magic even remotely viable, everything that made D&D what it was.
If your refering to magic/spells in 4E, I don't think they're nerfed at all. It's taken with the context of the new game. Yes, Lightning bolt doesn't deal a sh!t ton of damage anymore. So what? The main problem many anti-4E people can't seem to comprehend is that just because a spell/power/etc.. is designed to be destructive or have an Encounter tag on it does NOT mean that they cannot be used OUT OF COMBAT in the same fashion. Lets take the a nice wizard Utlity spell Invisibility. It's a daily spell, meaning you get a one shot til your next full rest. It can be sustained (using a standard action) for as long as the wizard damn well pleases!!! If he makes an attack, the spell fades. How is that worse than before?
I think people's views of what's "nerfed" results from some strange ideal that it's good to compare/contrast one editon to another. Would people do such things between paladins of 2e and paladins of 3e? No, because the class has changed in many regards that any comparison is pointless. They're just different. They have benefits (correlating with their specific edition) and they have flaws (again, correlating with their specific edition).
Not to mention blatant idiocy on the part of the book writers. "Making a magic item costs as much as it costs to sell it..." YEAH RIGHT! think ANYONE would make something and then sell it for as much as it costs to make it? No sense whatsoever.
What you mean to say is making the item costs as much as BUYING it at the local market. If you have the Enchant Magic Item ritual, you can take a mundane article and make it magical FOR THE SAME COST as buying. The item level cannot exceed your level. This is often where some DM's inject a bit of RP and or prerequisites for that magical item's creation if it's special (this is where common, uncommon, and rare come into play). And honestly, I think this is designed more to allow those parties that are in large dungeons who don't have access to a quick magical shop to at least gain some magial benefits unlike 3E where you were pretty much at the whim of the DM in those situations who could be super stingy with stuff.
Then making powers that can only be used on enemies and not friends even though using them on friends would often be better than on enemies? Making rituals prohibitively expensive? The quest for "game balance" has made D&D little better than a hack and slash. With noncombat and preperatory magic virtually nonexistant or prohibitively expensive, there's almost no point to playing anything other than a combat oriented character.
THAT is what I'm pissed about.
Could you give me some ideas about what powers would be better hitting allies than enemies? I ask because I'm reminded of the Invoker, who has many powers that target enemies and also buff allies within the same attack.
As for rituals, I don't think their costs are really that bad. Sure, the Market price is a bit steeo, but that's a 1-time fee and it's only at said market, store, etc... And as a DM, I often throw in a few rituals on bad-guys so my players can add those rituals to their books as well.
Game balance was just ridiculous in previous editions. Take a look at 3.5 Char-Ops boards and you get my drift. The heavy 3 (Cleric/Druid/Wizard) pretty much owned after 10 level (earlier if you optimize right) leaving the "lesser" classes in the dust for party contributions. Who needs a fighter when you have a Cleric with full-plate, heavy shield, casting divine power or righteous might or wings of the divine and their 10+ turn undead attemps which can be used to quicken spells? Who needs a rogue when you have a wizard with wand of knock and find traps or spells like greater invisibility, evard's black tenticles, hells even Glitterdust? Druids can pretty much do anything they want past level 5 so I won't even go into their broken abilities, wild shaping, and the Planar Shepard prestige class. And the funny thing is, most of what I just said above is what many typical "power-gamers" do in their campaigns and it's ALLL for combative purposes. Yea, 4E just went way to hack'n'slash *rolls eyes*.
Take a look at the novels. Before going into any fight, large amounts of preperatory magic is used. Take for example the shandril epic. Every fight was both heavily combat AND magic oriented. Both physical combats and magical combats were initiated to attack/protect a single person with awesome magical powers. A wonderful story... one that couldn't even BEGIN to take place with the 4th edition rules. Think that the dracolich was gonna wait 10 minutes for elminster to cast a fly ritual on his powerful fighter ally? Think that the epic spell duels would have even begun to work if every powerful spell utilized required 10 minute rituals? NO!
Most spells wizard/sorcerers/swordmages use are combat spells and thus take standard actions, not 10 minute rituals (which are designed to take place out of combat).
True, many of the books before have been physical combat oriented, but they also used huge amounts of preporatory magic before heading into battle. And nearly always there was some form caster support. And let's of course not forget the war of the spider queen novels. Another epic that couldn't even begin to be expressed in 4th edition rules as those too were heavily caster oriented. Or the Elminster epic. Or the books dealing with khelban blackstaff. Or the sellsword trilogy. All of which couldn't be done via 4th edition rules.
Never read any Drizzt book huh? Can't say there are too many magical casters in those novels nor did any of the battles totally rely on magical whims to complete the story.
But honestly, I never for once felt the novels MUST adhere to the rules of D&D. And I can guarentee most of the authors put the story first and foremost and THEN took a little look at the rules to see if it all meshed together. Lets take another look at Drizzt, becaus RA is well known NOT to write books derived from the rules of D&D. Drizzt is able to use his spell-like abilities (Darkness and Faerie Fire) 1/day. Not until the book Drow of the Underdark, published WAAAY after his novels were released did drow even have the ability to use those powers more often. Going by the rules at the time, Drizzt broke them.
If anything, the rules of 4E liberated the novels from being held by those gossamer chains. No longer are NPC or Monsters ( you know, those people in the novels you seem very concerned about) bound by the same rules of PCs in their creation. If you want Elminster in 4E to shoot lightning from his eyes, spew burning garlic spittle from his mouth, while going invisible and flying AT THE SAME TIME, it's possible since they're nothing in the NPC/Monster Creation guide of 4E to stop this.
You don't have to like 4E (or FR-4E) and nor does anyone here expect you to. Its just that the venting of frustration is pretty much falling on deaf ears at this point. The waves if loss, sorrow, and agony of 4E and it's changes on the FR community have pretty much smoothed over. Take the changes and accept them or don't and stay with earlier editions of the game. Pretty simple.
Never read any Drizzt book huh? Can't say there are too many magical casters in those novels nor did any of the battles totally rely on magical whims to complete the story.
I have read them all. I don't think Catti aand Regis should have died but all in all a wonderful epic series which I rank up with Tolkien, Jordan and Goodkind. But even in those books there was significant magical presence. Lady Alustriel, Robbilard, the Harpell family, the dwarven clerics, Jarlaxle, and not to mention many of the adversaries were ultra powerful high level casters such as the Matron Mothers. Drizzt recieved magical aid, often in the form of powerful magic items, every step of the way. Let's not forget Gwen, his panther companion, his first piece of magical aid without which he would never have survived the Underdark.
But honestly, I never for once felt the novels MUST adhere to the rules of D&D. And I can guarentee most of the authors put the story first and foremost and THEN took a little look at the rules to see if it all meshed together. Lets take another look at Drizzt, becaus RA is well known NOT to write books derived from the rules of D&D. Drizzt is able to use his spell-like abilities (Darkness and Faerie Fire) 1/day. Not until the book Drow of the Underdark, published WAAAY after his novels were released did drow even have the ability to use those powers more often. Going by the rules at the time, Drizzt broke them.
This in particular gives me hope. I pray that the story tellers particularly of Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance do not forget that... The story SHOULD come first. I hope for the sake of my reading enjoyment that the rules which I find so detestable do not make it into the books which I have enjoyed for over 15 years. It was actually such a book that got me enamored with the game in the first place: I found a book left in my classroom which had been left there for 3 days by Weis and Hickman When I was 14. It was Test of the Twins if I recall. Raistlin was a great character and I wanted to read more. D&D was only a small step from there.
If anything, the rules of 4E liberated the novels from being held by those gossamer chains. No longer are NPC or Monsters ( you know, those people in the novels you seem very concerned about) bound by the same rules of PCs in their creation. If you want Elminster in 4E to shoot lightning from his eyes, spew burning garlic spittle from his mouth, while going invisible and flying AT THE SAME TIME, it's possible since they're nothing in the NPC/Monster Creation guide of 4E to stop this.
You don't have to like 4E (or FR-4E) and nor does anyone here expect you to. Its just that the venting of frustration is pretty much falling on deaf ears at this point. The waves if loss, sorrow, and agony of 4E and it's changes on the FR community have pretty much smoothed over. Take the changes and accept them or don't and stay with earlier editions of the game. Pretty simple.
That's just it, many of us build our characters for the specific purpose of being part of some epic adventure to rival the scale of what we read. The long and short of it is I WANT to be able to make a character to throw epic spells at my enemies. I WANT to make a character that has no value in combat whatsoever but can cause cataclysmic damage to wrongdoers anyways with the weight of my divination prowess. I WANT to be able to build a monk with the capability of fighting a horde of orcs single handedly. I WANT to be able to have an avarial fighter capable of handing 100+ damage in a single attack (yes this was possible in 3.5 with a careful selection of feats and application of levels). I WANT to be able to create an undead horde to terrorize my enemies. I WANT to have a halfling slingshot master based arount ranged disarming of combatants. I WANT to be able to create potions of fireball and sell them off as healing potions :p
As far as "you can just go play 3.5" sure I can. Let me just go direct the people I want to play with to the local game store where they can buy... only 4th edition books. Hmmmm doesn't work too well does it? And try picking up a 1st edition book. NOT gonna happen easily. Or cheaply.
Not that 4e books are cheap either: $40 a pop is asking a bit much imho.
True there is still the d20srd. I could possibly print the whole thing and give it to my friends who I play with. I prefer to avoid copyright infringement but I believe the srd is free usable source authorized by WotC *goes to check after posting* but it's not the same. Not to mention an almost complete lack of support for previous editions. Also this would pretty much force me to DM nearly all the time and I DO like to play my own characters from time to time.
As far as "you can just go play 3.5" sure I can. Let me just go direct the people I want to play with to the local game store where they can buy... only 4th edition books. Hmmmm doesn't work too well does it? And try picking up a 1st edition book. NOT gonna happen easily. Or cheaply. Not that 4e books are cheap either: $40 a pop is asking a bit much imho.
True there is still the d20srd. I could possibly print the whole thing and give it to my friends who I play with. I prefer to avoid copyright infringement but I believe the srd is free usable source authorized by WotC *goes to check after posting* but it's not the same. Not to mention an almost complete lack of support for previous editions. Also this would pretty much force me to DM nearly all the time and I DO like to play my own characters from time to time.
I see used game books all the time, often for a huge discount compared to the original price, both at online stores and at gaming stores and hobby shops. There's also Pathfinder, which is really the extension of 3.5 rules, and of course there's the d20srd stuff. Pretty easy to find cheap stuff really, with a little bit of effort.
As to a "complete lack of support" for older editions, turn that concept on its head and recognize that nothing in the future will contradict any house rules or interfere with your game due to updates. The greatest benefit of using a prior edition is that it's static.
This in particular gives me hope. I pray that the story tellers particularly of Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance do not forget that... The story SHOULD come first. I hope for the sake of my reading enjoyment that the rules which I find so detestable do not make it into the books which I have enjoyed for over 15 years. It was actually such a book that got me enamored with the game in the first place: I found a book left in my classroom which had been left there for 3 days by Weis and Hickman When I was 14. It was Test of the Twins if I recall. Raistlin was a great character and I wanted to read more. D&D was only a small step from there.
I started with Dragonlance as well. Aside from Rastlin and his castings of iconic D&D spells, spells which could arguably be from 3e or 4e from their description in the novel, nothing really stood out to me as "this is what D&D is supposed to be!" I didn't see any instances which made me think "Man, Caramon MUST have the Power Attack feat to do all that!" or "Wow, Tasslehoff must have like 10 ranks in Slight of Hand." It's been that way since the days of TSR and I don't think the rules really ever played a major impact on how the novels were written.
An example of a FR4E novel I'm reading, it's called Corsair by Rick Baker. It's a very well written novel that I definitly found enjoyable. The spells and powers the characters use didn't make me say "Oh, he used his boo-ha-ha spell so he can't use that until the next battle." But yes, some of the spell's names are referenced in the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide (namely the Swordmage's spells).
That's just it, many of us build our characters for the specific purpose of being part of some epic adventure to rival the scale of what we read. The long and short of it is I WANT to be able to make a character to throw epic spells at my enemies. I WANT to make a character that has no value in combat whatsoever but can cause cataclysmic damage to wrongdoers anyways with the weight of my divination prowess. I WANT to be able to build a monk with the capability of fighting a horde of orcs single handedly. I WANT to be able to have an avarial fighter capable of handing 100+ damage in a single attack (yes this was possible in 3.5 with a careful selection of feats and application of levels). I WANT to be able to create an undead horde to terrorize my enemies. I WANT to have a halfling slingshot master based arount ranged disarming of combatants. I WANT to be able to create potions of fireball and sell them off as healing potions :p
I'm not going to say that some of those "possibilities" aren't hindered or unheard of in 4E. Can a fighter (there isn't an Avariel race yet) do 100+ damage in a single attack using 4E? Yes, look at those Char-Ops boards and you'll find tons of threads that exploit each loop-hole in the edition. But that's not really the case, the point your making is that you want to be able to break the game with ease. 4E does a lot better job of handling out the balance, making each class different, unique, and interesting while keeping them in balance with other classes of the same role. A wizard isn't going to out-damage a rogue (this wasn't even possible in 3e either) but it goes to show that in the end, there isn't one class to rule them all.
What I find the most humorous about the above post is that many anti-4E people are those who've said 4E has gone way to combat-centric. That the rules of the game are designed for slaying monsters, gaing "kewl lootz" and leveling up. Yet here you are, arguing that 4E can't let you take over the world and destroy countries with cataclysmic damage. So 3E was a better system because it allowed you to do this?
As far as "you can just go play 3.5" sure I can. Let me just go direct the people I want to play with to the local game store where they can buy... only 4th edition books. Hmmmm doesn't work too well does it? And try picking up a 1st edition book. NOT gonna happen easily. Or cheaply.
Not that 4e books are cheap either: $40 a pop is asking a bit much imho.
True there is still the d20srd. I could possibly print the whole thing and give it to my friends who I play with. I prefer to avoid copyright infringement but I believe the srd is free usable source authorized by WotC *goes to check after posting* but it's not the same. Not to mention an almost complete lack of support for previous editions. Also this would pretty much force me to DM nearly all the time and I DO like to play my own characters from time to time.
Again, no one's forcing you to play a system you don't enjoy. If you don't have much or any 3e/v3.5 material then I suggest using e-Bay, Amazon.com, and Half Price Books. Not to mention local garage sales and flea markets (I've found quite a few beauties in those areas myself). Or you can go Jorunhast's route of using Paizo's Pathfinder system. This, quite honestly, is by far more superior than 3e/v3.5 in almost every respect. It makes clerics NOT be heal bots 24/7, it puts some reigns on the Druid yet allows them to keep alot of their shennanigans. Makes most of the d20srd classes better (including the rogue, bard, and ranger) and is still supported.
Check out this site www.d20pfsrd.com/ to get started using their material.
To give you some perspective, I still play 3.5, Pathfinder, and 4E. I've come to really, really, enjoy Paizo's Pathfinder products, espically their adventure paths. The way Pathfinder's combat system works is way more stream lined and simpler than v3.5 when it comes to Turning/Controlling undead, Grappling, Disarm, etc..
The classes have few, if any, dead levels and often gain benefits at all levels of play. Playing 20 levels straight through a specific class is encourage a lot more because many classes have "cap stones" which are superior abilities at the classe's end progression.
Not only that, but adventures from v3.5 require little adaptation to use in Pathfinder mechanics. In additon, their home world of Golarion is actually well mapped out, has loads of lore and intriguing deities. It's a lot of fun.