Looking at the release schedule, the descriptions, and the 4e DMG... it looks like the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting and Forgotten Realms Players Handbook will contain different sets of information.. so will I need BOTH to run a campaign within the realms?
I suspect you will, but it's not entirely certain yet. FRCS looks like it will contain information about the setting such as history, geography, NPCs, organisations, etc. FRPH will probably contain information for players such as new feats, talents, paragon paths (I wrote Prestige Classes there at first, then corrected it to kits
), etc. If you aren't worried about having specialist FR-specific character abilities then you should be able to manage without the FRPH, but it's likely you'll find a use for both.I suspect you will, but it's not entirely certain yet. FRCS looks like it will contain information about the setting such as history, geography, NPCs, organisations, etc. FRPH will probably contain information for players such as new feats, talents, paragon paths (I wrote Prestige Classes there at first, then corrected it to kits
No, one of my players knows FR likely better than most writers for the world know it, I'd best get both just to make sure I don't have a mutiny.
On a slightly offtopic note, does anyone know if Eberron is a good setting? I know it might be setting myself up asking here, but I literally have NEVER been in an Eberron game.. so I'm just debating between the two.
No, one of my players knows FR likely better than most writers for the world know it, I'd best get both just to make sure I don't have a mutiny.
On a slightly offtopic note, does anyone know if Eberron is a good setting? I know it might be setting myself up asking here, but I literally have NEVER been in an Eberron game.. so I'm just debating between the two.
Well, 4th Edition FR is a different beast to previous editions and a lot of the things that they know could be about to change.
I like a lot of the Eberron setting material. I've observed various PbP games set in it, and a lot of the concepts seem to work out well in play. I've seen it described as being "D&D meets Indiana Jones" by people who like the exploring a lost continent aspect, as "D&D meets Noir" by some people who like that aspect. I'm not sure I'm a good person to ask about it though as I don't think you can really judge a game till you've had a chance to play it, and I haven't done that yet.
On a slightly offtopic note, does anyone know if Eberron is a good setting?
That's not a matter of fact, but opinion. For my part, I think it's OK.
Check out the books and see if it's to your tastes.You don't NEED the FRCS to run a 4E FR game, but if you want to use the setting as it was remade for this edition, it might be in your best interest to wait for it. It's only a few months away.
That's not a matter of fact, but opinion. For my part, I think it's OK.
You don't NEED the FRCS to run a 4E FR game, but if you want to use the setting as it was remade for this edition, it might be in your best interest to wait for it. It's only a few months away.
Well, I guess my question is more accurately stated as, if I get FRCS,would I need the FRPHB as well?
It's sounding like if I want anything forgotten realms specific for the players, the FRPHB is required in addition. Reading this, it seems like FRCS is equiv to the DMG, and FRPHB is equiv to the PHB.
That's what I'm curious about.
Well, I guess my question is more accurately stated as, if I get FRCS,would I need the FRPHB as well?
It's sounding like if I want anything forgotten realms specific for the players, the FRPHB is required in addition. Reading this, it seems like FRCS is equiv to the DMG, and FRPHB is equiv to the PHB.
That's what I'm curious about.
Well, bear in mind that the FR books are not out yet and none of us have seen what's in them.
If you're a DM, getting both FR sourcebooks is probably a good idea.
And yeah, if you are DMing in 4E Realms, you probably should pick up both books.
The world itself is excellent, even if it was lifted Whole-cloth from the Iron Kingdoms setting. I personally don't care for the 'flavor' of the setting - cinematic, over-the-top adventures (think Indiana Jones/Lara Croft), but the setting is very well detailed and I like it very much.
I would just use FR's flavor while running it.
I read one Eberron novel (the first one) and it was a major struggle for me to finish. I have no interest in reading others.
I like Eberron to a degree. The books are decent. The trilogy with ex-assassin turned cleric and his half orc sidekick is pretty good. Some of the stand alone books have been enjoyable. Obviuosly its no Realms but it has its strong points and interesting theme
The world itself is excellent, even if it was lifted Whole-cloth from the Iron Kingdoms setting.
Not hardly. There are some superficial similarities, but IK is far superior, but that aside I see nothing to suggest that Eberron was "lifted" from it.
I like Eberron to a degree. The books are decent. The trilogy with ex-assassin turned cleric and his half orc sidekick is pretty good. Some of the stand alone books have been enjoyable. Obviuosly its no Realms but it has its strong points and interesting theme
-Sounds like the Erevis Cale books: Ex-Assassin turned Cleric and his Halfling sidekick. Half-Orc...Halfling...Close enough...
Personally, I think Eberron needs much more development to reach what the Forgotten Realms have done.
-That is the anathema of Eberron.
-That is the anathema of Eberron.
Yup, I was about to say the same thing. The "gaps" in the setting aren't supposed to be filled in.
Yup, I was about to say the same thing. The "gaps" in the setting aren't supposed to be filled in.
-How anyone could like that, I don't know, but...More power to them, I guess.
-How anyone could like that, I don't know, but...More power to them, I guess.
Well, let me rephrase what I said: the gaps are there to be filled in by the DM rather than WotC.
That style of development is a boon for those who want to develop the world themselves without also feeling like they are "overriding canon" (I don't think overriding canon is a big deal, but to each their own).Yup, I was about to say the same thing. The "gaps" in the setting aren't supposed to be filled in.
There was a time when Sembia was purposefully not written up to be developed by the particular DM
Well, let me rephrase what I said: the gaps are there to be filled in by the DM rather than WotC.
-I know, I know. And, still...How anyone could like that, I don't know, but...More power to them, I guess. :P
And that filling in of the gaps is what leads us to get upset about novels that ignore the omniscient 3rd person view in favor of the authors view... had we still the unreliable narrator thing, it wouldn't be as much of an issue when they get it wrong I don't think... :P
-Point of view has nothing to do with anything. "We" get "angry" when when information is either blatantly wrong, or misinformed. Even in 2e, with the unreliable narrator, this still happened. Fan "outrage" is nothing new.
-Point of view has nothing to do with anything. "We" get "angry" when when information is either blatantly wrong, or misinformed. Even in 2e, with the unreliable narrator, this still happened. Fan "outrage" is nothing new.
I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it anymore!
I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it anymore!
-We've got the right to choose and...There ain't no way we'll lose it. This is our life, this is our song...
-Sounds like the Erevis Cale books: Ex-Assassin turned Cleric and his Halfling sidekick. Half-Orc...Halfling...Close enough...
There are similiarities for sure. The lead cleric is not a cleric of a thief god though. Its not bad
To be highly developed does not mean you don't have freedom to fill in the gaps. I don't think that development implies powerful NPCs or places where you cannot do whatever you want.
Very true.
-Who has a better sidekick?
Cale whether you count Jak or Riven
Cale whether you count Jak or Riven
-Heh, I was thinking Jak more, myself.
-Heh, I was thinking Jak more, myself.
well, now its more Riven, but I fgured you meant Jak
-Riven, I consider more of a coworker than a sidekick. Jak, he was just always a sidekick. Probably because of the fact that he's a Halfling.
I get that. Though Riven is becoming more and more of a sidekick. Besides, he's the Second to Cale's the First
-He wouldn't like being called a sidekick. He'd sneer.
perhaps, but he's still The Second
perhaps, but he's still The Second
-Don Drysdale was number two, and I don't think people really consider him a sidekick.
-Don Drysdale was number two, and I don't think people really consider him a sidekick.
compared to Koufax, he was
compared to Koufax, he was
-He did have a couple of good, sidekick-like one-liners, about Koufax.
Cale whether you count Jak or Riven
I loved little Jak. What a cool character. I also liked how the author had Cale, who is essentially a loner-type, hooked up with (at times) a whole adventuring team. It was really nicely done, in that he was still able to preserve that "loner" feeling for Cale.
Despite everything that's going on in 4E Realms, I am really curious how Cale will make it through the spellplague and the 100-year jump. Now that he's a shade, his life span should be increased a ton... so he should still be alive and having adventures (maybe a book or two?) in 1479+, right?
I also liked how the author had Cale, who is essentially a loner-type, hooked up with (at times) a whole adventuring team. It was really nicely done, in that he was still able to preserve that "loner" feeling for Cale.
Despite everything that's going on in 4E Realms, I am really curious how Cale will make it through the spellplague and the 100-year jump. Now that he's a shade, his life span should be increased a ton... so he should still be alive and having adventures (maybe a book or two?) in 1479+, right?
I like this character as well, and enjoyed Jak
-I know, I know. And, still...How anyone could like that, I don't know, but...More power to them, I guess. :P
-That's the point, WoTC created Eberron with the intention of combining the best elements of Campaign Settings and more open Core-D&D. They wanted the feelings and specialized purpose that a campaign setting evokes without getting certain players addicted to the lore and then rioting like potheads when they try to make changes. Just look at yourself Karsus;)
-Right now all settings are open for me to explore. I will most likely try to take the best aspects of all campaign settings and use them to fill in the empty gaps of core, that is if I get a chance to DM.
-That's the point, WoTC created Eberron with the intention of combining the best elements of Campaign Settings and more open Core-D&D. They wanted the feelings and specialized purpose that a campaign setting evokes without getting certain players addicted to the lore and then rioting like potheads when they try to make changes. Just look at yourself Karsus;)
-Right now all settings are open for me to explore. I will most likely try to take the best aspects of all campaign settings and use them to fill in the empty gaps of core, that is if I get a chance to DM.
Yet, the Realms are more popular than Eberron so what does that tell you?
Yet, the Realms are more popular than Eberron so what does that tell you?
Longevity my friend.;) Plus the two settings are aimed at totally different audiences with the Eberron audience only beginning to move away from WoW and Everquest.
Don't get me wrong, personally I like the Realms far better. Its just Eberron has its boons that will get it through the 4e age.
Longevity my friend.;) Plus the two settings are aimed at totally different audiences with the Eberron audience only beginning to move away from WoW and Everquest.
Don't get me wrong, personally I like the Realms far better. Its just Eberron has its boons that will get it through the 4e age.
Understood. Also, since there is a lot of anymosity towards the 4e realms, amny might abandon it altogether. Eberron won't suffer from that at all
Understood. Also, since there is a lot of anymosity towards the 4e realms, amny might abandon it altogether. Eberron won't suffer from that at all
Yep, which is why I am sticking to core for 4e, just in case FR topples over from all the hate
Despite everything that's going on in 4E Realms, I am really curious how Cale will make it through the spellplague and the 100-year jump. Now that he's a shade, his life span should be increased a ton... so he should still be alive and having adventures (maybe a book or two?) in 1479+, right?
It's possible. But it's also also possible that he could die before then, either from the Spellplague fallout or simply from conflict (such as in the last Twilight War book).
It's possible. But it's also also possible that he could die before then, either from the Spellplague fallout or simply from conflict (such as in the last Twilight War book).
I'm guessing he is going to be sent to Cania and be tortured by Mephistopheles for eternity, mwahahahahha
Either that or the Shadovar will get him or he will become Mask's exarch.
I'm guessing he is going to be sent to Cania and be tortured by Mephistopheles for eternity, mwahahahahha
Either that or the Shadovar will get him or he will become Mask's exarch.
I'm going to guess that Cale will still be around. He's a popular character, and as with Drizzt and Elminster it's likely that some "old" characters will be kept around to maintain some sort of connection to the "old" Realms (and to move product, of course).
I'm going to guess that Cale will still be around.
I would say that is a pretty good guess
I'm going to guess that Cale will still be around. He's a popular character, and as with Drizzt and Elminster it's likely that some "old" characters will be kept around to maintain some sort of connection to the "old" Realms (and to move product, of course).
Well, he is more of a novel icon than anything and dosen't quite have the notoriety that Drizzt and El have. I would say that if they can kill off the Seven Sisters (which they probably have), then they can kill him.
My guess is that in the campaign setting itself most of these characters will be dead, but they will all be featured in the novels, which will detail all the events that lead up to their deaths.
Well, he is more of a novel icon than anything and dosen't quite have the notoriety that Drizzt and El have. I would say that if they can kill off the Seven Sisters (which they probably have), then they can kill him.
Cale sells more novels then the Seven Sisters did. Plus, I think he is more popular. Plus, he doesn't have to die for the sake of the transfer to 4e
Cale sells more novels then the Seven Sisters did. Plus, I think he is more popular. Plus, he doesn't have to die for the sake of the transfer to 4e
Never got into Cale, probably because I've only read 2 novels with him in it, lol.
I'm not saying that he will die, just that it is a possibility.
It's possible. But it's also also possible that he could die before then, either from the Spellplague fallout or simply from conflict (such as in the last Twilight War book).
That's true, but I sort of doubt a generic ending (old age, or death by spellplague) for Cale. If he dies, it'll be doing something heroic and involving self-sacrifice, perhaps to save Thazienne.
Never got into Cale, probably because I've only read 2 novels with him in it, lol.
I'm not saying that he will die, just that it is a possibility.
OK. And I'm saying based on popularity thats not a very realistic possibility
That's true, but I sort of doubt a generic ending (old age, or death by spellplague) for Cale. If he dies, it'll be doing something heroic and involving self-sacrifice, perhaps to save Thazienne.
That's what I was thinking too.
Well, he is more of a novel icon than anything and dosen't quite have the notoriety that Drizzt and El have. I would say that if they can kill off the Seven Sisters (which they probably have), then they can kill him.
Of course they can kill him, I just don't think they will. Cale is newer character, but people have taken a shining to him, and apparently WotC did too, as he now has two trilogies under his belt.
Also, fairly or unfairly, Cale doesn't carry the burden of complaints that the Seven Sisters did.
That's true, but I sort of doubt a generic ending (old age, or death by spellplague) for Cale. If he dies, it'll be doing something heroic and involving self-sacrifice, perhaps to save Thazienne.
Well of course. I *did* mention conflict, which sort of implies a heroic death (he is after all the protagonist--I wouldn't expect ignominious death).
Well of course. I *did* mention conflict, which sort of implies a heroic death (he is after all the protagonist--I wouldn't expect ignominious death).
Heh!
I fear for the Seven Sisters, though... one has already had her soul destroyed... pretty ignominous there. Heh!
No kidding.:raincloud
Heh!
It was a noble sacrifice though, and I think that Quilue was aware of the ultimate result.
Also, fairly or unfairly, Cale doesn't carry the burden of complaints that the Seven Sisters did.
There was no sourcebook dedicated to him and his adventures seemed more personal
I will not mind any deaths among the Seven Sisters as long as those deaths are meaningful. Both Qilue and Khelben sacrificed themselves to bring about the work of their lifetimes. And Sylune died defending her precious Shadowdale and I don't think she would regret her death for even a moment.
-Agreed. At first, I did not like the idea that Halaster was killed (and, in an adventure, no less!). But, now that a little bit more of the story has been told, and he died as a result of attempting to research how to prevent the Spellplague, and seeing "Elder Evils", and all of that stuff, it's not that bad.
-Agreed. At first, I did not like the idea that Halaster was killed (and, in an adventure, no less!). But, now that a little bit more of the story has been told, and he died as a result of attempting to research how to prevent the Spellplague, and seeing "Elder Evils", and all of that stuff, it's not that bad.
The novel Blackstaff has already been totaled for me, but I guess I'll read it anyway for the lore.
Anyway, as long as the Seven Sisters die meaningful deaths with nice catalysts and leave behind a substantial legacy, I'm happy. Cale, I coudn't care less about, but I hope the same for him.
The novel Blackstaff has already been totaled for me, but I guess I'll read it anyway for the lore.
-Note that, as has been mentioned, Khelben has been working his entire life for a specific goal, and that specific goal is revealed (and, of course, has an aftermath) in that novel. His actual name (Akhelben) literally means in Elven, 'He Who Honor, Duty and Magic Define'.
-Note that, as has been mentioned, Khelben has been working his entire life for a specific goal, and that specific goal is revealed (and, of course, has an aftermath) in that novel. His actual name (Akhelben) literally means in Elven, 'He Who Honor, Duty and Magic Define'.
Again you attempt to spoil my FR reading experience...
Again you attempt to spoil my FR reading experience...
-All of that goes back to 2e sources. Nothing new here. ;)
The only death I've really, truly accepted so far was Khelben's. The others all feel too much like there's an agenda behind them--an agenda that I don't like.
I'm not convinced yet that Qilue's death was "meaningful". As I said elsewhere, I think the context surrounding it (such as the ideas about redemption) is silly.
The only death I've really, truly accepted so far was Khelben's. The others all feel too much like there's an agenda behind them--an agenda that I don't like.
If it was an in-setting agenda with a sort of conspiracy-theory feeling to it, I would like that.
But if it is just Retcon trying to dumb down a setting for little kids, no.
If it was an in-setting agenda with a sort of conspiracy-theory feeling to it, I would like that.
But if it is just Retcon trying to dumb down a setting for little kids, no.
-Having similar feelings as she does, it's definitely a case of the latter, and not the former.
-Having similar feelings as she does, it's definitely a case of the latter, and not the former.
Who knows, the former may be explored more fully in future novels. Perhaps the great minds at WoTC even had foresight enough to use this as a way to tie the new world of Abeir in context.
Who knows, the former may be explored more fully in future novels. Perhaps the great minds at WoTC even had foresight enough to use this as a way to tie the new world of Abeir in context.
-Well, they are used to tie in events pertaining to the 4-Gotten Realms, anyway. The "redemption" of certain Drow, and the death of Halaster are both directly related to it, in that Dark Elves will exist in the 4-Gotten Realms, and Halaster was killed which doing research into the Spellplague, seemingly. Khelben, not so much, as, as I said, the entire schpiel with him dates back to 2e sources.
-Well, they are used to tie in events pertaining to the 4-Gotten Realms, anyway. The "redemption" of certain Drow, and the death of Halaster are both directly related to it, in that Dark Elves will exist in the 4-Gotten Realms, and Halaster was killed which doing research into the Spellplague, seemingly. Khelben, not so much, as, as I said, the entire schpiel with him dates back to 2e sources.
So there's nothing wrong if it is just to introduce new elements into the Realms. I would have prefered it if they didn't have to kill off such iconic figures to achieve such means.
Well the Spellplague itself ties into very old sources as well (albeit in a very different form than the one we are getting).
Yes, except the Spellplague overall was more destructive than constructive, killing and demoting many cosmic entities and turning rich and vibratn regions of the Realms like the Vilhon and Unther into absolute disasters that offer nothing more than more slash and hack dungeon runs.
Well the Spellplague itself ties into very old sources as well (albeit in a very different form than the one we are getting).
-Only if one wants to reach for straws, because the supposed "definitive evidence" that it dates back to 1e sources is generic, and is admittedly by Ed Greenwood, a theoretical source of cataclysm. In other words, only taking what we have now, and "backdating it" allows us to tie the Spellplague with that stuff. At the time, the Spellplague as we know it wasn't necessarily what was meant.
Well as far as killing Eilistraee is concerned, it is a matter of interpretting existing content. One could argue that Eilistraee removed herself from the Seldarine willingly so as to be able to enter this particular game with Lolth and sacrifice herself to reverse the Descent, or at least begin it's reversal (i've given my views on what Corellon taking her place may well mean). If you want to tie it to exisiting content you can do so. Even to very old content. The Realms are filled with cryptic hooks that could be used for just about anything.
Don't try to make Elistraee sound more glorious than being Corellon's little black Jesus redemption puppet, cause that's essentially what she was.
Don't try to make Elistraee sound more glorious than being Corellon's little black Jesus redemption puppet, cause that's essentially what she was.
-While that's worded a little "strongly", Eilistraee was never about redemption of the soul, per se, as she was the redemption of the individual. Sure, the two are tied, but I am sure the distinction I am making is apparent.
-Note, though, that she did all of this willingly, as per Evermeet: Island of the Elves. Corellon Larethian never tasked her to do this.
-While that's worded a little "strongly", Eilistraee was never about redemption of the soul, per se, as she was the redemption of the individual. Sure, the two are tied, but I am sure the distinction I am making is apparent.
-Note, though, that she did all of this willingly, as per Evermeet: Island of the Elves. Corellon Larethian never tasked her to do this.
Yeah, sorry about that wording. I know she did it willingly.
Well, she was about the redemption of the individual soul.
If it was an in-setting agenda with a sort of conspiracy-theory feeling to it, I would like that.
But if it is just Retcon trying to dumb down a setting for little kids, no.
When I say "agenda", I am most certainly referring to an agenda outside of the setting.
When I say "agenda", I am most certainly referring to an agenda outside of the setting.
Oh, please forgive me for my overaltruistic "ignorance";)
Well the Jesus redemption puppet is quite glorious I think. . . Biggest franchise in the world
-Sure, but it's not "Realmsian". Having a soul that is "redeemed" or not doesn't matter at all. An individual with a "redeemed" soul who continues worshipping Lolth, upon death, goes to Lolth's realm. Likewise, someone without a "redeemed" soul who continues worshipping Eilistraee, upon death, goes to Eilistraee's realm.
Well, she was about the redemption of the individual soul.
-See above, which is why I said the 'individual', and not the 'soul' Though, again, get one, get the other, for the most part.
-Sure, but it's not "Realmsian". Having a soul that is "redeemed" or not doesn't matter at all. An individual with a "redeemed" soul who continues worshipping Lolth, upon death, goes to Lolth's realm. Likewise, someone without a "redeemed" soul who continues worshipping Eilistraee, upon death, goes to Eilistraee's realm.
.
Another prime example of how Ed Greenwood propagates Libertarian ideologies in his setting.
Another prime example of how Ed Greenwood propagates Libertarian ideologies in his setting.
-Just common sense, if you ask me, in the context of D&D.
-Just common sense, if you ask me.
Not saying anything is wrong with that of course;)
-Nope, nothing wrong at all with common sense.
Except for the senseless.
Another prime example of how Ed Greenwood propagates Libertarian ideologies in his setting.
Ed wasn't involved with the writing or plotting of that series, nor the general editorial direction for its outcome, so far as I'm aware. (And for that matter, why would redemption by a deity be "Libertarian"?)
Ed wasn't involved with the writing or plotting of that series, nor the general editorial direction for its outcome, so far as I'm aware. (And for that matter, why would redemption by a deity be "Libertarian"?)
I would doubt he had anything to do with it
Ed wasn't involved with the writing or plotting of that series, nor the general editorial direction for its outcome, so far as I'm aware. (And for that matter, why would redemption by a deity be "Libertarian"?)
-Heretic likes to say things he doesn't really quite understand. ;)
:P