Coming back to Auril's victory against Aerdire Faenya, it may be that there really has been an epic fight between the two deities shortly past the spellplague, seeing Auril the victor and leaving Akadi with too little energy to maintain her alternate identity and forcing it to reveal itself as Akadi to its human and elven followers, at the risk of losing their faith. But that's just wild theories on my part.
The second...?
And he's correct.
i though akadi was aerdie yet the article seems to suggest otherwise:
'since the coming of the spellplague, auril
has gained significant power by siphoning the faiths
of Ulutiu, aerdie Faenya, and Gruumsh into her own.
In addition to her classic portfolio of cold and winter,
the Frostmaiden now claims dominion over wind
and storms—bringing her into direct conflict with the
ancient primordial power akadi.'
and the part that saddens me:
'Winter Hall as a physical structure is an amalga-
mation of varied styles that has undergone continual
expansion over the millennia. The most recent addi-
tion was the assimilation of the Winged mother’s
floating palace in the Year of the Wrathful eye
(1391 DR).'
the part that saddens me even more
'The avariel here profess a deep devotion to
auril, having adopted the faith of the Frostmaiden
following her victory over aerdrie Faenya.'
Coming back to Auril's victory against Aerdire Faenya, it may be that there really has been an epic fight between the two deities shortly past the spellplague, seeing Auril the victor and leaving Akadi with too little energy to maintain her alternate identity and forcing it to reveal itself as Akadi to its human and elven followers, at the risk of losing their faith. But that's just wild theories on my part.
You're pretty close actually Borris. There was an event called the Stormstar Requiem in which this "epic fight" occurred. Hall of the Frostmaiden had additional details about this conflict but they were edited out. My NDA prohibits me from going into any detail here, but it's my hope that all will be revealed in some future article.
?Now ask me what an NDA is. :P
He just said it was NDA.
Now ask me what an NDA is. :P
shush you, talking about the NDA is under the NDA.....
shush you, talking about the NDA is under the NDA.....
The First rule about NDA is we do not talk about NDA
The Second rule about NDA is......we do NOT talk about NDA
The First rule about NDA is we do not talk about NDA
The Second rule about NDA is......we do NOT talk about NDA
NDA??? What NDA?
we were discussing DNA.
NDA??? What NDA?
we were discussing DNA.
And we need another CENSORED NDA to discuss the DNA being discussed!!
CENSORED things are all over the place!
Now shut-up, or I'll sick the NRA on you guys.
Lead by undead Moses. :P
This is getting googley-moogley.
or is this under the NDA?
And what, you're surprised that another interesting god got killed in the 4th Edition 'Realms' in a half baked and unexplained way? That's like the modus operandi of the 4th Edition 'Realms'
I had more here... but I probably woulda got perma-banned for that one.
FR stopped being an RPG game setting sometime in 3e (probably the day Hasbro ate WotC).
People like to compare 4e to 'New Coke', but us 'old timers' can go even further back. before there was a 'classic Coke', there was first Coke - the one with actual Coke in it!
Thats right, its called 'Coke' because it contained Cocaine. Then coke was made illegal, and Coca-cola had to take the 'coke' out of 'Coke'.
And jus like original Coke, original FR was far more addicting. ;)
None of the things that got me to abandon my beloved Greyhawk all those years ago and join the FR band-wagon are there anymore. In fact, I can say with all honesty, FR is now more 'basic' then GH ever was.
Without the 'depth', FR just becomes another generic fantasy world in a pile of a million others.
Why would I bother to run FR in 4e? Please, I really want to know... if I can draw a map and make my own stuff up, what exactly is the point of a 'bare-bones' setting to someone like me?
Obviously, they aren't catering to people like me anymore, and thats the bottom line. They are catering to people who will pay the most for the least amount of product.
Thats good business... but it will kill the hobby in the end.
Thats the problem with corporate America - no-one considers the ramifications of decisions they make 20 years from now - its all about "whats in it for ME right now?" The guys at the top keep laying off people at the bottom, until the whole things gets top-heavy and falls over.
Their business model is only good for short-term profits - they are making their own positions obsolete in the long-run.
I'm starting to wax a little political now, so Viva la' Revolution and all that.
BTW "New Coke" tasted a lot better than "Pepsi Clear" carbonated corn syrup;)
She almost threw-up when she tried 'New Coke'...
The again, she had the same reaction when she saw 4e.
And before you get annoyed with my off-topicness yet again, LK, let me ask you this...
What IS the topic, exactly?
It can't be about Aerd-whats-her-name, because we now know that she never actually existed in FR. Ergo, this isn't even an FR topic, because she never really existed at all.
Now if this site still had a 'dead settings' section, I'd suggest you move this topic there. :P
And before you get annoyed with my off-topicness yet again, LK, let me ask you this...
What IS the topic, exactly?
-Aerdrie Faenya?
Angarradh (sp?) is still alive so I'm thinking yes...
-Aerdrie Faenya?
But she never existed in FR.
We know that for a fact now, so this is in the wrong section. :P
Attention: Please address all future posts about Aerhead Fan'ya to a forum dealing with a setting containing such a being. These are the WotC forums, so please keep thinking to a minimum.
-------- Thank You
- Chauntea = Silvanus = Grumbar
- Shar = Lolth
- Eldath = Milekki = Rilifane = Sheela
- Kossuth = Amaunator
- Ishtisia = Valkur
- Dendar the Night Serpent = Talona
- Kezef the Chaos Hound = Malar
- Tempus = Garagos = Red Knight
- Corellon = Milil
- Oghma = Thoth = Labelas Enoreth
- Asmodeus = Sharess
... there, that cleans out even more redundancies of the pantheons.
All = Ao
-I know, in my own setting, I do have a group of "misguided" individuals, who believe every deity (in my quite pantheistic) setting is simply an aspect of an even greater entity. Nobody likes them. That's one thing even the CE and LG people can agree on.
They should clean out some of the other gods while they are at it...
- Chauntea = Silvanus = Grumbar
- Shar = Lolth
- Eldath = Milekki = Rilifane = Sheela
- Kossuth = Amaunator
- Ishtisia = Valkur
- Dendar the Night Serpent = Talona
- Kezef the Chaos Hound = Malar
- Tempus = Garagos = Red Knight
- Corellon = Milil
- Oghma = Thoth = Labelas Enoreth
- Asmodeus = Sharess
... there, that cleans out even more redundancies of the pantheons.
I might agree that some of these could be grouped-together as 'churches', but I don't want to see most of them 'melted-together'.
Perhaps the Eldath/Mielikki (and Ki from the Untheric)
I'd rather see Grumbar and Chauntea, not Sylavanus and Chauntea. In the Hordelands, grumber has much of Chauntea's portfolio already. Besides, Chauntea should MOST DEFINATELY be Primordial, whereas I see Sylvanus being her godly counterpart.
Kossuth and Aumanator I don't like, even though it makes sense - Fire has a very destructive aspect, whereas the sun has a nurturing one (although both can be flipped around easily enough).
Dender and Talona?
More like Sseth = Zehir = Dender (an aspect of the greater serpent) - maybe even throw Asmodeus in the mix (he is known as 'the serpent' to some GH cultures).
Defiantely NOT Asmodeus and Sharess... thats just wrong. Perhaps his daughter - Glaysia(sp?) for Sharess. that would be pretty cool.
I can see Malar = Herne = Kezef (= Fenris), but then I'd make him a Primordial as well (Primordial savagery).
I love the idea of Lolth and Shar as one deity - I have done that in a hombrew pantheon I'm working on (she's called Sharloth - how original
), and she is the goddes of "creeping darkness & doom". However, I don't see any way of easily reconciling all the past lore with that one - they are both too 'big' to meld together historically.Hershey's Syrup+whole milk=
:PIs Aerdrie Faenya dead as far as her worshipers are concerned (assuming they know she is an aspect of Akadi) or did Akadi's defeat merely mean Aerdrie Faenya's realm and a good part of her portfolio were incorporated by Auril?
Angarradh (sp?) is still alive so I'm thinking yes...
As I understand it it was revealed that Aerdie was Akadi and later Akadi was slain by Auril.
As I understand it it was revealed that Aerdie was Akadi and later Akadi was slain by Auril.
Akadi was apparently defeated by Auril in the Stormstar Requiem (an event about which we may never have more than the name), but certainly not slain. Akadi is still around and giving spells in the 4th edition setting. Following the Stormstar Requiem, however, either it was revealed to the elves that Aerdries had been an aspect of Akadi all along and Akadi had no reason to maintain the disguise, or Akadi's defeat prevented it to manifest as Aerdrie, but in the end Aerdrie Faenya ceased to exist altogether. Many of her followers turned to other elven gods, some began worshipping Akadi, but most apparently opted for Auril, including the Avariels of the far North.
Auril defeats a goddess that supposedly never existed in the first place, revealing the deception, and then most of Aerdrie's frakking Avariel worshippers go and switch to... An enemy of their goddess and the elven pantheon in general.
I. Uh.
What.
Seriously, this makes no logical sense.
Man, come on, hasn't the Seldarine been dumped on enough in the past? Labelas gets portrayed as a massive jerk in that one old comic series, they haven't done anything ever because gods forbid anything involve the elves, writers seem to be eternally trying to make Corellon look like an idiot, a jerk or both...
Blah.
OK, so.
Auril defeats a goddess that supposedly never existed in the first place, revealing the deception, and then most of Aerdrie's frakking Avariel worshippers go and switch to... An enemy of their goddess and the elven pantheon in general.
I. Uh.
What.
Seriously, this makes no logical sense.
Man, come on, hasn't the Seldarine been dumped on enough in the past? Labelas gets portrayed as a massive jerk in that one old comic series, they haven't done anything ever because gods forbid anything involve the elves, writers seem to be eternally trying to make Corellon look like an idiot, a jerk or both...
Blah.
That is because the SEldarine really are evil jerks intent upon screwing over all the races in general and the poor orcs in particular...
But, anyway, what has annoyed me so much is that in general the Sun elves behaved as badly in the past as the then soon to be drow acted and they have never gotten anything for their troubles.
Also, did all/most of the avariel switch to Auril or just those who resided in her Faenya's domain?
Perhaps the argument can be made that when Auril took over Faenya's domain and the astral power it contained she was also able to take the souls 'attached' to it.
Maybe they plan on having a future paragon or epic adventure dealing with a resistance movement of avariel within the realm.
Just a couple of thoughts.
That is because the SEldarine really are evil jerks intent upon screwing over all the races in general and the poor orcs in particular.
Spread the Faith, brother. :D
Like that witch Mystra, all of their lies have been laid bare.
The truth shall set ye free!
- Avariel existed on Toril long before the faith of the Seldarine arrived. In that long ago time they venerated fey powers and spirit lords like all elves
- Most avariel embraced Aerdrie Faenya not knowing she was an aspect of the primordial Akadi
- Most avariel feel little kinship with elven-kind, and in some cases feel betrayed by them
- Auril wasn't always an evil goddess bent on covering the world in ice, and since the Stormstar Requiem her dogma is changing
- The humans of Sossal (and more recently the avariel) venerate Auril in her ancient benign aspect - Aurilandür
Avariel existed on Toril long before the faith of the Seldarine arrived. In that long ago time they venerated fey powers and spirit lords like all elves/
-We have no canon date mentioning when the Avariel first arrived on Abeir-Toril. Given that Avariel assisted the survivors of Tintageer when they were attacked by Mahatnartorian, they had to have existed at least before -25,400 DR (GHotR, 8). Given that the Dark Elves and the Wood (“Wild” Elves) arrived in -27,000 DR (GHotR, 8), it is likely that the Avariel, along with the Lythari and the Aquatic Elves, and possibly the Star Elves, entered into Realmspace at this time as well, using the same gates that were opened by the Fey creator race (RoF, 31). Ultimately, however, we have no actual answer. The Wood (“Wild”) Elves worshipped entities that were not the Seldarine (GHotR, 8,) but there are no mentions of what deities the Avariel worshipped. As far as we know, the Avariel only worship the Seldarine, and Aerdrie Faenya (RoF, 31). As such, anything else is speculation with no absolute concrete basis, as of information right now, not information to be released- which can say/do whatever it wants, being retroactively applied.
Most avariel embraced Aerdrie Faenya not knowing she was an aspect of the primordial Akadi
-Which, in and of itself, does not mean anything. Regardless of who/what the entity they were worshiping, ultimately, they, for the most part, worshiped Aerdrie Faenya primarily, who has worked to oppose Auril herself in the past, and was something she continued to do (DD 94; F&P 123).
Most avariel feel little kinship with elven-kind, and in some cases feel betrayed by them
-Many Avariel feel estranged from “mainstream Elvenkind”, not fully understanding their own history, the history of Elvenkind in Realmspace, and the history of Faerûn. Like the previous point, however, this does not mean anything, in relation to the discussion and problem at hand. Most Avariel worship the Seldarine, as a whole, but reserve that special place in their heart for Aerdrie Faenya (RoF, 32). The largest bastion of Avariel is led by a Cleric of Aerdrie Faenya, and a large faction of their culture- the philosopher/theist faction- spends most of their time contemplating their religion and the ways of their patron, Aerdrie Faenya (RoF, 32).
Auril wasn't always an evil goddess bent on covering the world in ice, and since the Stormstar Requiem her dogma is changing
Good to see that the 4th Edition 'Realms' is moving away from arbitrary and unexplained events as a reason for the various changes.
Further, removing Aerie's goddess was a bad move. Bad designers! No cookies for you.
I might agree that some of these could be grouped-together as 'churches', but I don't want to see most of them 'melted-together'.
Perhaps the Eldath/Mielikki (and Ki from the Untheric)
I'd rather see Grumbar and Chauntea, not Sylavanus and Chauntea. In the Hordelands, grumber has much of Chauntea's portfolio already. Besides, Chauntea should MOST DEFINATELY be Primordial, whereas I see Sylvanus being her godly counterpart.
Kossuth and Aumanator I don't like, even though it makes sense - Fire has a very destructive aspect, whereas the sun has a nurturing one (although both can be flipped around easily enough).
Dender and Talona?
More like Sseth = Zehir = Dender (an aspect of the greater serpent) - maybe even throw Asmodeus in the mix (he is known as 'the serpent' to some GH cultures).
Defiantely NOT Asmodeus and Sharess... thats just wrong. Perhaps his daughter - Glaysia(sp?) for Sharess. that would be pretty cool.
I can see Malar = Herne = Kezef (= Fenris), but then I'd make him a Primordial as well (Primordial savagery).
I love the idea of Lolth and Shar as one deity - I have done that in a hombrew pantheon I'm working on (she's called Sharloth - how original
I was being sarcastic.
Too many people around here switching sides lately, I'm losing track.
I think we need to make a thread with some sort of 'score card' so we know who we're supposed to be arguing with. :P
That is because the SEldarine really are evil jerks intent upon screwing over all the races in general and the poor orcs in particular...
But, anyway, what has annoyed me so much is that in general the Sun elves behaved as badly in the past as the then soon to be drow acted and they have never gotten anything for their troubles.
Lies and filthy heresies. :P The Seldarine are awesome, and those lousy orcs and meddlesome humans have it coming.
My theory on the Sun Elves is that Corellon was too busy banging his head on the wall at their eternal inability to get anything through their thick skulls to actually come up with a suitable punishment for the nutters until after all the relevant ones were dead. Plus the Sun Elves probably don't remind him of Lolth quite the way the Dark Elves would have.
Although DD has him having drow clergy members so he can't hate them all that much either if he's letting them be priests, which makes the wholesale 'Yeah you all suck go away now' on them odd, assuming it was meant to happen like that and didn't go weird like so many other things involving elves and magic do. Eh, he's a Greater Power, who the heck knows what he's thinking. I still like him and the rest of the Seldarine(Well, except for Shevarash) and think they just get the short end of the stick too often. :P
But yeah, the whole thing with the Avariel strikes me as odd no matter how I look at it, for much the same reasons as LK posted.
Ah... sorry....
Too many people around here switching sides lately, I'm losing track.
I think we need to make a thread with some sort of 'score card' so we know who we're supposed to be arguing with. :P
Don't worry, there might not be such a need later on... since we have steadily been losing people who are anti-4e (i.e. Zanan, GothicDan, Dumb Paladin, Simbul) that the people who are left will be more and more pro-4e on average.
My theory on the Sun Elves is that Corellon was too busy banging his head on the wall at their eternal inability to get anything through their thick skulls to actually come up with a suitable punishment for the nutters until after all the relevant ones were dead. Plus the Sun Elves probably don't remind him of Lolth quite the way the Dark Elves would have.
-Let's not forget that Corellon Larethian and the rest of the Seldarine declared through their followers in the Elven Court that the Vyshaan, the leaders of Vyshaanti Empire needed to be punished, which prompted the Fifth Crown War. Ultimatley, the Vyshaanti were overthrown and killed (so they say) to the last Elf, so they, too, were punished.
* Avariel existed on Toril long before the faith of the Seldarine arrived. In that long ago time they venerated fey powers and spirit lords like all elves
* Most avariel embraced Aerdrie Faenya not knowing she was an aspect of the primordial Akadi
* Most avariel feel little kinship with elven-kind, and in some cases feel betrayed by them
* Auril wasn't always an evil goddess bent on covering the world in ice, and since the Stormstar Requiem her dogma is changing
* The humans of Sossal (and more recently the avariel) venerate Auril in her ancient benign aspect - Aurilandür
indeed in a recent 4e novel (forgot which one) i remeber a character praying to auril to hide his loved one from his enemies 'in her white tresses' ... still in the DDI article auril was still portrayed as an evil to the chore -itch.
seems like designer or whoever decides what happens in realms has plans for the pantheon more than lets get rid of this and that and lets not bother with explaning ourselves to fans attitude that i have come to suspect ; so when and where would we be reading about the stormstar requiem?
Elves don't even worship the Seldarine (although many were forced to, over the years - very 'Jihad' of them), the Eladrin do, who were created in their image.
So Eladrin are 'Knock-offs', which means Gold and Silver Elves have always been counterfeit Elves. No wonder they're so haughty around Sylvan Elves - they are covering for their own feelings of inadequacey. :P
Thanks to 4e, I decided I no longer hate Elves... just the Eladrin. The poor little tree-huggers were just victims of circumstance (like my poor, misunderstood Dark Elves).
By the way, I don't really read 4e source materials so never really understood the changes on the elves... So, what's this Eladrin-Elf split? I thought Corellon is supposed to be the god of the elves :/
-Mechanically, Sun/Moon/Star Elves are 'Eladrin', in game terms, and Wood/"Wild" Elves are 'Elves', in game terms. In the setting, Sun Elves are still called Sun Elves, Moon Elves Moon Elves, Star Elves Star Elves, Wood Elves Wood Elves and "Wild" Elves "Wild" Elves, so in the setting, nothing has changed. Just the rules.
4e realms is the Agent of of the New god of thieves Jabba the clutz
I can just see little 'underground Temples' in Aryvaandar(sp?), where poor, subjugated Sylvan Elves (both Green and Dark) have to secretly worship their own pantheon without the 'Overlords' finding out.
You know... Aryvaandar is sounding more and more to me like Nazi Germany... no wonder I suggested the German Eagle as the symbol for it over at CK (or a fantasy version - like a Griffon - but having that same, 'rigid' look).)
isn't this a bootstrap? Isn't Auril's dogma changing because her follower-base is changing?
Also, if the Avariel feel little kinship with pretty much everybody (as seems to be the case considering the responses here) why would they take up the cause of a deity whose major adherents are Human, and who defeated their own Goddess? "If it is strong enough to beat my god(dess) then she must be worthy of my worship" takes you quite far... but this?
You know... Aryvaandar is sounding more and more to me like Nazi Germany...
Did you just Godwin this thread, MT?
As for Auril's benign aspect, she not only had one in Sossal, she also had a very popular one in the Lands of Intrigue (her priesthoods provide 'air conditioning' for wealthy - and no, I'm not kidding).
Her 'other name' - the one she is probably known benignly under - is "Alaphaer" (which sounds awfully Fey-like to me).
'Godwin' - you have me stumped - whats that mean?
-That's the theory that people invariably, in a discussion, bring up Hitler as a "paragon of X" (evil, horror, terror, etc.), and that when people do so, it partially robs the credibility of whatever they are trying to get across. Something like that.
-A basic one looks something like this:
Person A: "I like hamburgers."
Person B: "Hitler liked hamburgers, too. You must be like Hitler..."
I'm an artist, a psycho, and a helluva public speaker... can I be like Hitler? :P
Anyhow, I think I get that impression because of my little knowledge of the Crown Wars - when you read the events in the GHotR, it reads like a Blitzkrieg-style campaign by the Aryvandaar, but then when you read the attached dates, you realize it was spread over hundreds, sometimes thousands, of years, and it doesn't seem so much like a Blitzkrieg then the juggernaughts of time and change rolling inevitably forward.
However, we know from the one well-documented Elven Realm -Cormanthyr - that the Elves have many towns and villages and occasionally more then one city within a realm.
Now that I think about it, aren't all Elven Realms (with the notable exception of Al-Qahera) within forests?
One of the things I like about the 4e changes is that it at least gave us some 'Plains Elves'.
Of course, there are the Sea Elves, but I was thinking about surface groups only.
One of the things I like about the 4e changes is that it at least gave us some 'Plains Elves'.
well i personally dislike the idea of the 'barbarian elf' they have come up with. and still hope they wouldnt be portrayed in the novels as 'indians turned elves' they seem to sound like in the campaign guide...
come to think of it i really do hate making elves and eladrin two different races and diminishing the elves into little more than primitive tree dwellers... true; wild elves and even wood elves were already portrayed along those lines before but further accentuating that point...
BTW, its not really a retcon, except for using that Outsider name: In 1e, we only had High Elves, Sylvan Elves, and Drow (which were NPC-only). Now we are just 'back to basics'.
They've replaced 'High Elf' with 'Eladrin' - it's just terminolgy; nothing really has changed. Ignore what you don't like - thats what 4e is designed for.
As for 'Plains Elves', FR has had them for quite some time, but they only got a brief mention in the Maztica material and were never used for anything - they live in Anchorome. All the 4e designers did was bring them 'closer to home', making them more usable for a DM who wants to go that route. If you need ideas for them, look through all the Dragonlance Wood Elf art - they have always looked like Elves dressed-up as Indians (right down to the warpaint qand feathers).
Warpaint? Most of the time green elves are tattooed with those facial patterns.
indeed in a recent 4e novel (forgot which one) i remeber a character praying to auril to hide his loved one from his enemies 'in her white tresses' ... still in the DDI article auril was still portrayed as an evil to the chore -itch.
Even before 4E, there was nothing to stop a character from making pleas to evil deities.
Elven woodmanship is largely comparable to native american ways of life. It's why elven communities will mostly leave next to no relics of their stay. One can imagine certain vales populated by green elves might have had some citylike settlements like the indians did have (like near the mexican border in the US). Al'Qaheera might have been a relic of a green elven settlement which got hit by a sudden desertification.
Actually, I've come to the conclusion that those Elves are living in the ruins of Atao. Whatever forest they may have lived-in prior to the desertification of the Raurin was destroyed, and they have made-do the best they could.
My guess is that the Ajmer Jungle (in Durpar, in the region that was formerly part of Thommar) was MUCH larger and covered a MUCH greater area, even crossing the mountains into Guge, and the Ajmer is just a very small piece that is left of the larger wood (all names and locales are CANON).
Warpaint? Most of the time green elves are tattooed with those facial patterns.
Well, yeah... but I did say to just use them as a reference.
- Ice elves
- Brown elves
- River elves
- Clay elves
- Magic elves
- Nazi elves
- Santa elves
- Tunnel elves
... omg elves everywhere!
So, what are elves again?
So, what are elves again?
Biohazards. I mean, they were created from a guy's blood, which is totally unsanitary. Be sure to wear latex gloves and exercise caution when handling them. Maybe a facemask too. :P