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Wizards in 4E

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
karazhan
Aug 22, 2008 18:57:17 Hello Folks,

I wanted to start a thread to discuss what people thought of the magic system of 4E in the Realms. Do you think it's good? bad? Going to modify 3.5 magic? How do you feel about the wizard class in general and their "powers"?

Please be respectful!
#2
barthalas
Aug 22, 2008 19:26:15 I like it so far but I think it needs expanding. I'm looking forward to the Arcane Power book and more DDI articles like the one that put forth the Illusionist.
#3
karazhan
Aug 22, 2008 19:45:37 Personally, I am modifying 3.5 to keep the feel of a wizard and his spellbooks. Some powers are nice, but only having a handful of powers ever is too limiting IMO.
#4
barthalas
Aug 22, 2008 19:57:41 Don't forget rituals. Maybe what you are trying to accomplish could happen by turning those missing spells into rituals. That would probably be the easiest thing to do.
#5
karazhan
Aug 22, 2008 20:01:11 I think rituals are great and plan to keep them. But in terms of flavor, using the same powers over and over is too limiting in combat..no defensive spells to speak of and the ones that do exist last 1 turn usually. IMO spells are the wizards weapons and whereas a warrior can still switch weapons at will wizards can not anymore. I think my opinion also stems from the fact that I liked wizards being able to be strikers, or defenders, or controllers. With the proper damage modifications in place I do not see 3.5 overbalancing. But I think 4E may get better with more DDI and book releases. Unfortunately, even with more powers coming out, you still can not learn them unless you give something up because there is a fixed limit on what you can know.
#6
Diffan
Aug 22, 2008 20:44:33 I've never really liked the Vancian system of magic in pre-4e editions and try to do spell-points whenever possible. That being said, I could see Wizards and possibly Sorcerers having a much more diverse spell allotment and changing spells more often than say a cleric would.
#7
naex
Aug 22, 2008 20:52:02 Strictly speaking this thread belongs in the General Discussion or Character Building: Controllers forums, unless you are talking specifically about wizards in Forgotten Realms. There are numerous variations of this thread in the above locations. Good Luck.
#8
karazhan
Aug 22, 2008 21:02:04 That was the point of putting it here Naex. The question involves the feel of 4th edition magic in the Realms.
#9
merrikcale
Aug 22, 2008 21:45:52 I generally like the 4e rules but I am not a big fan of the magic system. I have played it yet so I'm only going by perceptions. The rituals are cool but the system is limiting
#10
naex
Aug 22, 2008 21:59:33
That was the point of putting it here Naex. The question involves the feel of 4th edition magic in the Realms.

Apologies, but that was not clear from your initial post that it was realms related.

As for the 4e Magic system in the realms... I think it is a minor improvement over the Vancian system, I like the encounter/daily/utilty spells idea, but the rirual system seems limited. many of the rituals should be of lower levels than they are, or have reduced casting times. We still need solid group ritual and High Magic crunch.
#11
karazhan
Aug 22, 2008 22:18:04 @Naex, no apologies needed as I should have made my statement more Realms-specific.

@MerrikCale, I really like most of the 4E rules as well (including rituals). However, I find that after 20+ years of playing wizards who studied spells, gathered spells from defeated foes, and researched new spells the versatility is just not there anymore. Now, this is not to say that a new player might not like the system and I am not saying it's bad. The great thing I find in 4E realms is there are multiple types of magics still (wild magic, circle magic, etc.) so I have playtested an adapted 3.5 system and it seems to work. Especially with the new monster hp, wizards are not going to steal the show (a complaint from 3.5). 3.5 magic is easily adaptable which is something I also like.

Rituals. Now these critters are interesting and also very frustrating. I like the idea of rituals very much. They have a very elven feel to them. So much so that I am going to create a 4E version of the elven spellmantle. Now, the issues I have with rituals are 3-fold:

1) They take a long time to cast

2) Even the simplest cost more than is feasible to use

3) Everyone can use them if the proper feats are taken

I think to solve the problems I might try:

1) Lessen the casting time
2) Reduce cost
3) Restrict them to classes that cast spells

Just some thoughts!
#12
lord_karsus
Aug 22, 2008 22:22:06 -Were you aware of the thread that existed on the 4e section about modifying the 4e Wizard to make it more similar to the 3e Wizard? I think you were, but in case you weren't...
#13
Mr_Miscellany
Aug 22, 2008 22:39:49 Hi Karazhan,

I’m not terribly impressed with magic as it’s presented in the 4E Rules.

The FR Campaign Guide didn’t really grab me with its ritual list either.

As a 4E Realms Dungeon Master, I’ve observed the wizard player in my group took about four to five encounters to really understand his character and figure out how to have fun with her both in combat and out of combat.

For the later, prestidigitation is just awesome. That spell finally works the way it always should. The wizard player in my group used it to dazzle a group of small children, which impressed the local populace and a few important NPCs as well.

In combat, I have not found the wizard to be unbalanced. The class is very effective at thinning the ranks of minion-class monsters and harming leader-class monsters.

The use of Circle Magic (as described in the FRCG, page 58) fits the Realms quite well. I really like that it doesn’t require a feat to use. But I don’t see it being utilized much in an actual game, as it requires multiple casters (ergo, multiple NPCs) to be effective.

I don’t know that I will have more to add until such time as the FR Player’s Guide comes out. I am afraid WotC will do away with much of the unique magic that exists in the Realms, but I hope not!
#14
serphet
Aug 22, 2008 23:17:47 I like the ritual system because I can make home brew spells without worrying about how the spell will be raped. I also like that you don't have to be an arcane class to use scrolls (or rituals for that matter).

I'm thinking about modifying the ritual system so that players can 'prepare' a certain (small) amount of spells ahead of time. He spends the component cost early and then uses a standard action to complete the ritual, though the preparations end 24 hours later. This allows my illusionist to do some of the illusion things more on the fly, yet it still does take its toll on the pocket book. My only thing is knowing how to make a 'prep' system work, I don't want to have a ton, just 1 or two (probably increasing in level)

and yes I know that sounds like the old magic system, I just want this for non-combat "rituals".
#15
avataran
Aug 23, 2008 17:07:55 Personally I was quite shocked when my DM gave us all the 4E information on the Realms and 4E in general. We had decided to update our party to 4E rules and when I sat down with my DM he was like..ok you get this many spells...I was stunned! I lost almost all my spells. I am by no means a powergamer and I love the Rp aspect. But one of my character's duties was to catelogue spells for Candlekeep. Your idea of adapted 3.5 sounds interesting and I may try that route too.
#16
Arawn76
Aug 24, 2008 8:27:51 I REALLY like the magic change. With the seperation of combat spells and utility effects (rituals) I can finally have a wizard capable of doing something other than attack/defend during the day.

In regards to the realms I think the 4E ritual system and the simple yet effective write up to circle magic show a lot of potential and promise as th where they can potentially expand the magic system. Particularly in regards to the likes of High Magic.

Now if only PHB2 would come out so I can see if my Moonshae druids are still viable;)
#17
rinonalyrna_fathomlin
Aug 26, 2008 13:08:06
Hello Folks,

I wanted to start a thread to discuss what people thought of the magic system of 4E in the Realms. Do you think it's good? bad? Going to modify 3.5 magic? How do you feel about the wizard class in general and their "powers"?

Please be respectful!

It's certainly not "good" or "bad". I like the 4E magic system just fine in itself, but deep down I don't really think it fits the Realms setting.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 karazhan Aug 22, 2008 18:57:17	Hello Folks, I wanted to start a thread to discuss what people thought of the magic system of 4E in the Realms. Do you think it's good? bad? Going to modify 3.5 magic? How do you feel about the wizard class in general and their "powers"? Please be respectful!
#2 barthalas Aug 22, 2008 19:26:15	I like it so far but I think it needs expanding. I'm looking forward to the Arcane Power book and more DDI articles like the one that put forth the Illusionist.
#3 karazhan Aug 22, 2008 19:45:37	Personally, I am modifying 3.5 to keep the feel of a wizard and his spellbooks. Some powers are nice, but only having a handful of powers ever is too limiting IMO.
#4 barthalas Aug 22, 2008 19:57:41	Don't forget rituals. Maybe what you are trying to accomplish could happen by turning those missing spells into rituals. That would probably be the easiest thing to do.
#5 karazhan Aug 22, 2008 20:01:11	I think rituals are great and plan to keep them. But in terms of flavor, using the same powers over and over is too limiting in combat..no defensive spells to speak of and the ones that do exist last 1 turn usually. IMO spells are the wizards weapons and whereas a warrior can still switch weapons at will wizards can not anymore. I think my opinion also stems from the fact that I liked wizards being able to be strikers, or defenders, or controllers. With the proper damage modifications in place I do not see 3.5 overbalancing. But I think 4E may get better with more DDI and book releases. Unfortunately, even with more powers coming out, you still can not learn them unless you give something up because there is a fixed limit on what you can know.
#6 Diffan Aug 22, 2008 20:44:33	I've never really liked the Vancian system of magic in pre-4e editions and try to do spell-points whenever possible. That being said, I could see Wizards and possibly Sorcerers having a much more diverse spell allotment and changing spells more often than say a cleric would.
#7 naex Aug 22, 2008 20:52:02	Strictly speaking this thread belongs in the General Discussion or Character Building: Controllers forums, unless you are talking specifically about wizards in Forgotten Realms. There are numerous variations of this thread in the above locations. Good Luck.
#8 karazhan Aug 22, 2008 21:02:04	That was the point of putting it here Naex. The question involves the feel of 4th edition magic in the Realms.
#9 merrikcale Aug 22, 2008 21:45:52	I generally like the 4e rules but I am not a big fan of the magic system. I have played it yet so I'm only going by perceptions. The rituals are cool but the system is limiting
#10 naex Aug 22, 2008 21:59:33	That was the point of putting it here Naex. The question involves the feel of 4th edition magic in the Realms. Apologies, but that was not clear from your initial post that it was realms related. As for the 4e Magic system in the realms... I think it is a minor improvement over the Vancian system, I like the encounter/daily/utilty spells idea, but the rirual system seems limited. many of the rituals should be of lower levels than they are, or have reduced casting times. We still need solid group ritual and High Magic crunch.
#11 karazhan Aug 22, 2008 22:18:04	@Naex, no apologies needed as I should have made my statement more Realms-specific. @MerrikCale, I really like most of the 4E rules as well (including rituals). However, I find that after 20+ years of playing wizards who studied spells, gathered spells from defeated foes, and researched new spells the versatility is just not there anymore. Now, this is not to say that a new player might not like the system and I am not saying it's bad. The great thing I find in 4E realms is there are multiple types of magics still (wild magic, circle magic, etc.) so I have playtested an adapted 3.5 system and it seems to work. Especially with the new monster hp, wizards are not going to steal the show (a complaint from 3.5). 3.5 magic is easily adaptable which is something I also like. Rituals. Now these critters are interesting and also very frustrating. I like the idea of rituals very much. They have a very elven feel to them. So much so that I am going to create a 4E version of the elven spellmantle. Now, the issues I have with rituals are 3-fold: 1) They take a long time to cast 2) Even the simplest cost more than is feasible to use 3) Everyone can use them if the proper feats are taken I think to solve the problems I might try: 1) Lessen the casting time 2) Reduce cost 3) Restrict them to classes that cast spells Just some thoughts!
#12 lord_karsus Aug 22, 2008 22:22:06	-Were you aware of the thread that existed on the 4e section about modifying the 4e Wizard to make it more similar to the 3e Wizard? I think you were, but in case you weren't...
#13 Mr_Miscellany Aug 22, 2008 22:39:49	Hi Karazhan, I’m not terribly impressed with magic as it’s presented in the 4E Rules. The FR Campaign Guide didn’t really grab me with its ritual list either. As a 4E Realms Dungeon Master, I’ve observed the wizard player in my group took about four to five encounters to really understand his character and figure out how to have fun with her both in combat and out of combat. For the later, prestidigitation is just awesome. That spell finally works the way it always should. The wizard player in my group used it to dazzle a group of small children, which impressed the local populace and a few important NPCs as well. In combat, I have not found the wizard to be unbalanced. The class is very effective at thinning the ranks of minion-class monsters and harming leader-class monsters. The use of Circle Magic (as described in the FRCG, page 58) fits the Realms quite well. I really like that it doesn’t require a feat to use. But I don’t see it being utilized much in an actual game, as it requires multiple casters (ergo, multiple NPCs) to be effective. I don’t know that I will have more to add until such time as the FR Player’s Guide comes out. I am afraid WotC will do away with much of the unique magic that exists in the Realms, but I hope not!
#14 serphet Aug 22, 2008 23:17:47	I like the ritual system because I can make home brew spells without worrying about how the spell will be raped. I also like that you don't have to be an arcane class to use scrolls (or rituals for that matter). I'm thinking about modifying the ritual system so that players can 'prepare' a certain (small) amount of spells ahead of time. He spends the component cost early and then uses a standard action to complete the ritual, though the preparations end 24 hours later. This allows my illusionist to do some of the illusion things more on the fly, yet it still does take its toll on the pocket book. My only thing is knowing how to make a 'prep' system work, I don't want to have a ton, just 1 or two (probably increasing in level) and yes I know that sounds like the old magic system, I just want this for non-combat "rituals".
#15 avataran Aug 23, 2008 17:07:55	Personally I was quite shocked when my DM gave us all the 4E information on the Realms and 4E in general. We had decided to update our party to 4E rules and when I sat down with my DM he was like..ok you get this many spells...I was stunned! I lost almost all my spells. I am by no means a powergamer and I love the Rp aspect. But one of my character's duties was to catelogue spells for Candlekeep. Your idea of adapted 3.5 sounds interesting and I may try that route too.
#16 Arawn76 Aug 24, 2008 8:27:51	I REALLY like the magic change. With the seperation of combat spells and utility effects (rituals) I can finally have a wizard capable of doing something other than attack/defend during the day. In regards to the realms I think the 4E ritual system and the simple yet effective write up to circle magic show a lot of potential and promise as th where they can potentially expand the magic system. Particularly in regards to the likes of High Magic. Now if only PHB2 would come out so I can see if my Moonshae druids are still viable;)
#17 rinonalyrna_fathomlin Aug 26, 2008 13:08:06	Hello Folks, I wanted to start a thread to discuss what people thought of the magic system of 4E in the Realms. Do you think it's good? bad? Going to modify 3.5 magic? How do you feel about the wizard class in general and their "powers"? Please be respectful! It's certainly not "good" or "bad". I like the 4E magic system just fine in itself, but deep down I don't really think it fits the Realms setting.