* But (and now for the big news) Wizards is looking for ways to publish old (i.e. pre 4E Realms) contents in form of electronic media.
As a Forgotten Realms fan I'm of course very happy, that they seriously consider to publish old Realms material. Count me in for that one. If you are a FR fan, too please make sure to remind them to do it.
Yes new pre-spellplague Realms material.
He did not get into detail, but I sounded very much that they embrace the idea. I suggested in the letter I initially wrote to release the information system-light. IMO they certainly won't provide 3E stats only. I'm not sure if they would provide stats for both editions. That would be a waste of space. 4E stats are likely. But I think a no rules or light rules (like Fighter 5 LE, flaming sword) would be the best option for fans of both editions
Is it a credible source?
I have no idea. He posted on Candlekeep, and he seems sincere. Even if he is, this information is still second-hand and may not be accurate. It's already rather vague, on top of that.
Only when someone asked him did he respond WotC hinted at new material set in the Old Realms.
-Let's be a little realistic, too, people: A lot of people didn't like a lot of the pre-4e 3e lore that was written in respect to the Forgotten Realms. Six of one thing, a half dozen of another? I think a lot of people have..."romanticized" 3e Forgotten Realms materials, in the wake of 4e Forgotten Realms materials that they don't necessarily like.
-Let's be a little realistic, too, people: A lot of people didn't like a lot of the pre-4e 3e lore that was written in respect to the Forgotten Realms. Six of one thing, a half dozen of another? I think a lot of people have..."romanticized" 3e Forgotten Realms materials, in the wake of 4e Forgotten Realms materials that they don't necessarily like.
True, there were some unpopular decisions and trends in 3e. Some books were underwhelming too. We also have no idea what this will be. I'm thinking if anything it will be Old Realms articles in Dragon and Dungeon.
The main thing that makes me wary of this rumor is WotC's supposed sudden turn around. When 4E hit, the designers were adamant about staying the course with 4E. I seriously doubt they would do the opposite. It just doesn't seem long enough, even if 4E Realms sales were significantly less than expected. I would think at least wait until they released Eberron, have more sales information regarding settings to gage their situation.
I think part of this is misinterpretation on the part of a hopeful interviewer.
*shrug*
Also, they 'may' (my own conjecture, mind you) have an optional 'add-on' for a couple of bucks which will include updated 4e stats for everything in those older sources.
If they do offer a discount to DDi subscribers, then those are also the people who'd be willing to pay extra for the 4e stats to go with the older books, which balances everything out and makes the DDi a no-brainer for many at that point.
At least, if they are smart they will do that....
'Cause, ya know... it would work....
http://3point75.blogspot.com/
And yes, it is kind of a vague response which is why I've asked him to clarify/confirm it. While I won't get any hopes up until I actually see WoTC do this, it's still something nice and positive (which I far prefer to post about) :D
-Let's be a little realistic, too, people: A lot of people didn't like a lot of the pre-4e 3e lore that was written in respect to the Forgotten Realms. Six of one thing, a half dozen of another? I think a lot of people have..."romanticized" 3e Forgotten Realms materials, in the wake of 4e Forgotten Realms materials that they don't necessarily like.
True. That's why I describe the Realms I like as "pre-Spellplague" rather than "3E", because there were plenty of trends I didn't like in the 3E era of Realmslore and even the ruleset (and therefore calling it "the 3E Realms" might cause people to misunderstand me).
I've started doing that myself, lately - using 'Pre-Spellplague' over '3e' when indicating my preferences.
In fact, in my last post at CK, I used Pre-plague just to shorten it. Maybe we can all agree on using PP (we can't use PSP :P ) to indicate the period of time prior to 1386 DR?
I know P&P refers to 'Pen & Paper' gaming, so that might get confusing as well.
ACK! Just remembered Powers & Pantheons as well....
Funny you should mention that.
I've started doing that myself, lately - using 'Pre-Sp-ellplague' over '3e' when indicating my preferences.
In fact, in my last post at CK, I used Pre-plague just to shorten it. Maybe we can all agree on using PP (we can't use PSP :P ) to indicate the period of time prior to 1386 DR?
I know P&P refers to 'Pen & Paper' gaming, so that might get confusing as well.
ACK! Just remembered Powers & Pantheons as well....
What will you do when enough APP info comes out that outweighs the things about the SP era you dislike?
Will you treat it like the ToT, acknowledging it but moving on to the things you enjoy?
Do you think the day will come that APP feels like AToT and then you except SP for another ToT in your FR history?
In fact, in my last post at CK, I used Pre-plague just to shorten it. Maybe we can all agree on using PP...
We already did that with Paragon Paths.:P
I never thought I'd see the day when the world ran out of anagrams.
Do you think the day will come that APP feels like AToT and then you except SP for another ToT in your FR history?
#1 - that day will NEVER come. We have twenty years RT and well over a hundred sourcebooks (and I think several hundred novels) filled with lore about the pre-1386 world, and WotC has already stated their goal was to just produce two sourcebooks and an adventure for each setting in 4e, along with periodic articles (which we've really seen very few of).
At the current rate of FR lore, it will take several centuries before they even create a tenth of what is already available.
#2 The difference here is that if I game at all - even if I decide to use the 4e rules for my next game - I will NOT be playing in the 1479 era. That would be counter-productive for me, because I already own all those old sourcebooks, and prefer not to "re-invent the wheel". Its far easier for me to continue on with my own version of FR (set in 1390) no matter what rules I use.
Of course I accept the 4e material as 'canon', but it will never be pertinent to anything I play, so it's not so much that I choose to ignore it, but rather it is irrelevant.
Geeze... I guess I'm stuck using "Pre-Spellplague" every time we have a discussion...
I never thought I'd see the day when the world ran out of anagrams.
How about PreSP?
...the rest of the post...
If you think so...
:evillaugh
Geeze... I guess I'm stuck using "Pre-Spellplague" every time we have a discussion...
I never thought I'd see the day when the world ran out of anagrams.
#1 - that day will NEVER come. We have twenty years RT and well over a hundred sourcebooks (and I think several hundred novels) filled with lore about the pre-1386 world, and WotC has already stated their goal was to just produce two sourcebooks and an adventure for each setting in 4e, along with periodic articles (which we've really seen very few of).
At the current rate of FR lore, it will take several centuries before they even create a tenth of what is already available.
This has been my fear all along. When they said 2 books, an adventure and (theoretical) magazine articles, my heart sank. I didn't like the idea of relying on promised articles to fill in the holes rather than having a real book in my hand. Once I read the 4e realms books and saw how light on cotent they were, my heart sank even more.
Do you think the day will come that APP feels like AToT and then you except SP for another ToT in your FR history?
No. I think the ToT and the Spellplague are different in orders of magnitude. The Realms carried on much as before after the ToT, but the Spellplague was a cataclysmal event that changed the very nature of the Realms.
It makes far more sense to think of the pre and post Spellplague Realms as two separate worlds, akin to the oWoD and nWoD.
This has been my fear all along. When they said 2 books, an adventure and (theoretical) magazine articles, my heart sank. I didn't like the idea of relying on promised articles to fill in the holes rather than having a real book in my hand. Once I read the 4e realms books and saw how light on cotent they were, my heart sank even more.
Well, we still have novels and, if demand is high enough, maybe more physical books. BRJ is working on a new 4e FR adventure as of now also. Add to this the stuff we get on DDI and it won't be so bare-bones for long.
No. I think the ToT and the Spellplague are different in orders of magnitude. The Realms carried on much as before after the ToT, but the Spellplague was a cataclysmal event that changed the very nature of the Realms.
It makes far more sense to think of the pre and post Spellplague Realms as two separate worlds, akin to the oWoD and nWoD.
Ditto.
The ToT simply wasn't drastic enough to break continuity with the 1e Realms. While the ToT and subsequent RSEs added messy layers to the Realms, everything from 1e, 2e, and onto 3e can be viewed as a whole. Logically, the events just prior to the Spellplague with the death of several deities should have as much impact as the ToT. This is before adding yet more dead gods, the Spellplague, Returned Abeir, and a century of time for it all to stew in. I think unless WotC comes up with an even bigger Realms Reshaping Event, the Spellplague will always mark two vastly different eras of the setting.
Ditto.
The ToT simply wasn't drastic enough to break continuity with the 1e Realms. While the ToT and subsequent RSEs added messy layers to the Realms, everything from 1e, 2e, and onto 3e can be viewed as a whole. Logically, the events just prior to the Spellplague with the death of several deities should have as much impact as the ToT. This is before adding yet more dead gods, the Spellplague, Returned Abeir, and a century of time for it all to stew in. I think unless WotC comes up with an even bigger Realms Reshaping Event, the Spellplague will always mark two vastly different eras of the setting.
Absolutely agree, I'm with Uzzy and Dark Wizard on this one.
Absolutely agree, I'm with Uzzy and Dark Wizard on this one.
Fourth.
Any one of the three - Spellplague, Returned Abeir, or the century time-jump - would have been more then any previous RSE... but perhaps still exceptable.
All three was just of a magnitude that takes overkill to a whole new level.
Far more has changed then has stayed the same. If I brought you to another world approximately the size of our own, with a single large moon and atmosphere comparable to ours, and then pointed out it also happened to have seven continents, I suppose you would accept that it was still Earth, right?
Its a different setting. You can't even argue otherwise, because the designers have referred to it multiple times as "the new setting". That was NEVER bandied-about with any prior edition change to FR.
If the people who own it say it's different, then it is. Thats the bottom line, and Stone Cold says so. :P
Yet, I think it was the time jump that marked the clear departure from previous editions. Then if you add to it the fact that the three things previously mentioned were added on top of that, and well, you get an extremely clear demarcation.
The Realms would have changed drastically in a 100 year time jump with or without the previously mentioned events. In fact, if there is anything odd about the time jump it is just how much the Realms DID NOT change in 100 years - especially with the aforementioned events.
That one thing erased nearly every usable fact we had from old-edition sources in one fell swoop.
Had I the power, I would have marked the end of the edition with a novel by Ed, with Elminster and other such individuals working to stop a plot by Shar to destroy the world... which results in the creation of parallel worlds and "portal stones" appearing on each world. (Stealing that idea from the Wheel of Time. :P)
Then for the new edition, claim it is set in a parallel Realms, and have Ed and everyone else sit down and redesign things from the ground up. What changes and remains the same? Go as drastic as you want, change as much history as you want, etc.
It has the benefit of this: each individual game played in the Realms could be canon, but just set in a parallel universe. So if you wanted to transfer a character from one game to another, they'd use a portal stone.
Thus, you'd get what was required for the D&D setting, but avoid "destroying" anything. (Meaning that the old edition lore and setting would still be accessible and intact, and that people could switch between them seamlessly.)
Then I would have re-booted the campaign in 1390 DR, or there-abouts. I have had this discussion ad-nauseum over at CK, and I think WotC really blew-it with that one. The years IMMEDIATELY following the Spellplague were probably some of the most interesting in Toril's history.
Forget Abeir (use that continent and the info for Anchorome), and instead say that the magical instability caused by the collapse of the Weave temporarily 'thinned' the veil between the worlds, and parts of other worlds have seeped into Toril (Thus eliminating the god-awful Abeir, and allowing the DM to bring things into his own campaign from ANYWHERE).
Earthmotes are still in-play, but they are not focused on. Just more 'rendom crap' that drifted in from some other (nameless) world (or worlds). Also, the Primordials - beings of vast power long-imprisoned beneath Toril - have been set-loose (it appears the Weave also functioned to keep those beings caged in stasis).
No-one knows what happened to Mystra (think Silence of Lolth), magic has 'run amok' and many powerful Mages have gone mad (think Wild Magic surges +10), and most of the population centers are unaware of how the rest of Faerûn has fared.
Add to that that certain regions have become permanently warped by magic (Plaguedlands), and many have been affected in some cruel way by magical mutations and scarring.
Into this devasted world new heroes are born, and it is up to them to find out what is going on, who has lived and who has died, and to create new magical traditions that work in the now-Weaveless World.
There you go - all the horror of a post-apocalyspe, the DM gets to fully decide what is left and what he'd like to add, and the heroes are the center of it all, trying to restore civilization (things like trade-routes) and bring about order in a world gone mad.
I think that sounds a thousand times better then "a hundred years ago tons and tons of cool stuff happened, but now everyone is over it and the world has gone back to business-as-usual" - YAWN.
Why the hell create the coolest plot-device ever, and then throw it a century into the past?
All that 100 years did was give the authors more room to write, and ruin the game for all the existing campaigns.
If it was just dead gods, well c'mon it's FR, dead gods is sort of a tradition. Oddly, 3e seemed to have bucked the trend with returned or hints of returned gods (Bane, Amaunator). Though the death of Mystra thing is pretty tiring, anyway you put it. Mysterious disappearance, now that's got potential.
If it were just the Spellplague and Plaguewrought lands, it would mean FR has the same major magical mishap fallout zones as ... nearly every freaking fantasy setting out there. FR would still take heat for having stolen something from Eberron's Mournlands. I think most would just roll with it if it were executed well, perhaps if it didn't erase any useable land. The Realms already has many desert areas due to magical fallout, Calimshan, Anauroch, Raurin.
Returned Abeir would still be strange, but it would also add a lot of opportunity. I'd have it replace only part of the coast of Maztica (perhaps like the Krytonite Continent from Superman Returns). It allows the old with the new and the conflict that ensues from it.
The hundred year leap if it came without all the calamities would have worked. We would be clamouring for lore of the lost years. We would get changes to the places we've always asked for in a more natural seeming way. Many of the characters would have a chance to fade into the sunset both popular and unpopular, powerful or minor.
*Yet Another Realms Shaking (/Shattering) Event
I would have embraced the Spellplague.
I could have learned to tolerate Abeir and Earthmotes.
Lost and combined Gods... .
I could have even come around eventually and used the 4e rules.
But that century was just a slap in the face. They sold us 3e books right up until the announcment... and then nullified it all. Personally, I think they owe us all a refund.
I'm planing on running a game (haven't really gotten the nerve to use 3e rules again) where I'll run my players through the super adventures, then into a side plot that ends with the Spellplague hitting.
Then the world goes mad and they either play new PC's (maybe the children or younger relatives?) right after the events of the last game or they can keep their PC's, but have to re-learn how to function in a world gone mad.
Why the hell create the coolest plot-device ever, and then throw it a century into the past?
I think we both know the answer to that. :P
It comes down to that WotC really had two main objectives: shoehorn FR into it's 'one core to rule them all' paradigm, and as you said "give the authors more room to write."
Their core isn't taking into account that there is a end-the-world apocalypse going on at the moment. Plus, most people would have argued that it turned FR into WAY huge points of light.
Maybe, it's just me but when I imagine the Spellplague and what the Realms would look like - I'm imagining Warhammer. Where, essentially, no matter what you do the end is coming. There is no stopping it. You're doomed, give up, live for the moment, and if you're lucky your actions might halt the inevitable for another day.
Essentially, if you let the Spellplague play out you get a setting that looks nothing like previous editions. WotC obviously didn't want that, so they threw a deux ex machina at us, and then a couple more for good measure. Then they did a time jump.
It's really not a coincidence that 4E FR looks so similar to previous editions, especially the "core" areas - Cormyr, the Dales, etc. It is also no coincidence that the Spellplague mostly "went around" those areas. :P
I'm not disagreeing with you though. It would have been far more interesting to play in, and it is something closer to what I imagined when we were first learning about the changes.
Even so, I still think my suggestion is better because it allows everyone to have their cake and eat it too. Additionally, it left the back door open in case the changes bombed. Backtracking was possible, and it opened up unique opportunities.
In any event, the only major benefit to switching to 4E FR is the flexibility that it grants the DM. My 4E FR looks virtually NOTHING like what is depicted in the FRCG. I essentially used the Spellplague and time jump, then I slashed, burned and retconned like it was going out of style. The FRCG is a seed, nothing more.
One day, I'd like to compile "my Realms" into a shareable format for others to get ideas from.
Anyway, I think WotC had to make some drastic changes to the setting. I am sure we all remember the common complaint we heard in 3E: All the fluff they were throwing at us was basically 2E fluff, watered down, with minor changes. Could they really have done another edition the same way?
This is how I would have used the Lost Century for the transition purposes. I would gradual reduce the "abrasive elements" of the Realms. Elminster and crew would fade out through the century (really retire, natural death, heroic death, outright mystery disappearance). A few of these would be mentioned in the FRCG. The more prominent ones would be detailed in novels. That closes the potential last chapter on some of these characters. It also still leaves a century of storytelling for them, so technically they wouldn't be dead, people playing in the 4E Realms will just never come across them.
Mystra would absorb the Shadow Weave and disappear under those shadowy circumstances, leaving Shar as just another evil goddess. People could worship the Weave with some minor specific deities of magic and wizardry (Selune, Lurue, Corellon, Azuth, etc.) as public faces. I mean, no one really has any problem with boring old Azuth (he's like Boccob in that respect, just a neutral wizard deity).
The Old Empires would get their proper makeover across that century. Much the same goes for any area that WotC deems needed change, it would just stretch out over a century. Have the Dragonborn rise out of the Old Empires from the rivalry between Tiamat and Bahamut.
For the Cthulhoid twist, I would have the disappearance of Mystra unleash small scale Spellplague style calamities in areas devastated by magic (Anauroch, Raurin, maybe Calimshan, the High Moor and bits of the Vilhon). Really make people miss her. :P She held them back, and now they're here.
From these wastelands come strange new aberrant beings. The Phaerimm and Sharn were just the tip of the iceberg, they were merely mortal beings touched by this otherness. The beings coming forth from these areas would be true alien horrors.
You pass it off as 'tradition'.
Mystra dies and Magic changes with each new edition. :D
And besides, thats all the Spellplague is - a super-magnified ToT, Wild magic Zones (Plaguedlands) and all.
To tell the truth, with a hundred year time-jump, I'm not even seeing the purpose of creating Abeir. Between the Spellplague and century, they could have re-written any part of the map without that idiocy.
As far as I can tell, it served no purpose. Someone must have thought it was a good idea, and no-one with any horse-sense was around to smack them all in the head.
However, they needed to shoehorn in the primordials. Remember, one core to rule them all. ;)
Till then, its all pixie dust, minotaur manure and anything else one can think of
That would be nearly a retread of the ToT, and you know how some people already clamour about WotC selling us slightly updated and modified 2e lore. :P
-That's alright.
However, they needed to shoehorn in the primordials. Remember, one core to rule them all. ;)
And in this one case, they couldn't have said "It was always that way"?
They've used that befgore, and to be honest, I prefer that to the 'retcon approach'.
That may sound like one and the same thing, but in this case it's not. They needn't have changed anything - all they needed to do was say that there was a 'God War' in the ancient past (no change there; we already have one in canon - the War of Light and Darkness), and then say Ao 'locked away' all the Primordials - who have been trapped in demiplane-like prisons all over Toril (which we also have a precedent for - read ANY of Bruce Coredll's stuff - he loves 'interdimensional prisons').
The Weave is shattered (which was maintaing those prisons), and most of those Primordials escape. I think that would have 110% better then the hokey Abeir crap.
In fact, it would even be kinda cool to say that the Weave was empowered by those trapped primordials - it drained off their energy, both weakening them, and strengthening the Weave at the same time (the more they struggled, the stronger their prison became).
You could even go back retro-actively and say all those Wild-magic zones from the ToT (which contained strange and unnatural creatures) were manifestations of the Primordials trying to 'break free' at that time (while Mystra was de-powered).
I'm all for Primordials being in Toril's pas... in fact, I've always had them (TSR/WotC keeps peaking at my stuff :P ). I just think they needn't have created the assinine Abeir for them.
I think Abeir's primary purpose was to replace Maztica, which was so full of FAIL it's not even funny. With a hundred years, Maztica could have been easily fixed, but they just didn't want to bother and took the easy (and shoddy) way out.
On Topic:
Anyway, I think people are reading too much into this. I think what we have here is WotC providing us with the same exact downloads we were able to get cheaply (from other online venues) before, but charging a lot more money for them. Even if they don't charge more then Paizo's $4, they will still be making 100% for themselves, without having to share anything with competitors.
Its an obvious money-grab, and you guys are applauding them for it.
Too funny. :D
That would be nearly a retread of the ToT, and you know how some people already clamour about WotC selling us slightly updated and modified 2e lore. :P
You forgot watered down. ;)
Seriously, am I the only one that remembers those complaints? How many people have criticized Faiths and Pantheons as being a poor mans version of Faiths and Avatars?
And in this one case, they couldn't have said "It was always that way"?
They've used that befgore, and to be honest, I prefer that to the 'retcon approach'.
That may sound like one and the same thing, but in this case it's not. They needn't have changed anything - all they needed to do was say that there was a 'God War' in the ancient past (no change there; we already have one in canon - the War of Light and Darkness), and then say Ao 'locked away' all the Primordials - who have been trapped in demiplane-like prisons all over Toril (which we also have a precedent for - read ANY of Bruce Coredll's stuff - he loves 'interdimensional prisons').
The Weave is shattered (which was maintaing those prisons), and most of those Primordials escape. I think that would have 110% better then the hokey Abeir crap.
There could have been a hundred different things used. In any event, I think we both agree that Abier is and was crap. I hate the entire concept, and I too agree that Maztica could have been 'fixed' with the time jump + Spellplague.
Hell, since the Spellplague "went around" areas with a lot of magic, can you imagine what Maztica would have looked like? It'd be one huge Plaguelands.
Or, alternatively, there is / was a lot of loose ends they never tied up. I am partial to the idea that Shoon VII (aka Zallanora Agentresses) seized control of the Twisted Rune, and the group moved and seized control of Maztica. Think of it as a way for Shoon VII to reestablish his empire, away from the eyes of his potential enemies on the mainland. Maztica is / was a ripe place for the taking by an individual such as him. Someone of his power could have enslaved the entire continent, especially if you turn the Twisted Rune into his subservient lackeys.
I like the idea of a vast Spellscarred region - give all those natives some nasty abilites and they could kick those Helm-lovers butts!
Kick 'em all the way back to the Realms. :D
Imagine a truly mysterious jungle continent, where you don't even know if that puny little native isn't going to change into a Jaguar and eat you! Between the Spellscars and those magically-warped creatures that were created in the novel-events, Maztica could have been a Cordellian Paradise! :P
Scarey Jungle = cool.
Another continent of medieval Kingdoms = BORING
You forgot watered down. ;)
Seriously, am I the only one that remembers those complaints? How many people have criticized Faiths and Pantheons as being a poor mans version of Faiths and Avatars?
-Hence why I said:
-Let's be a little realistic, too, people: A lot of people didn't like a lot of the pre-4e 3e lore that was written in respect to the Forgotten Realms. Six of one thing, a half dozen of another? I think a lot of people have..."romanticized" 3e Forgotten Realms materials, in the wake of 4e Forgotten Realms materials that they don't necessarily like.
Yes, I do agree. I had problems with a lot of things going on in the 3E lore, so for me it was somewhat easier to accept the changes made with 4E. It's not that I -like- all of the changes (I don't), it's that it is [i]very easy[/i] to change what I don't like, and keep what I do - from all editions. I have the ability to go as drastic as I want, or keep things mostly the same if I desire it.
Anyway, I think people are reading too much into this. I think what we have here is WotC providing us with the same exact downloads we were able to get cheaply (from other online venues) before, but charging a lot more money for them. Even if they don't charge more then Paizo's $4, they will still be making 100% for themselves, without having to share anything with competitors.
Its an obvious money-grab, and you guys are applauding them for it.
Too funny. :D
I'm glad somebody else saw it for what it is.
On Topic:
Anyway, I think people are reading too much into this. I think what we have here is WotC providing us with the same exact downloads we were able to get cheaply (from other online venues) before, but charging a lot more money for them. Even if they don't charge more then Paizo's $4, they will still be making 100% for themselves, without having to share anything with competitors.
Its an obvious money-grab, and you guys are applauding them for it.
Too funny. :D
I don't really have a problem with them doing that myself. I kind of prefer buying stuff straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak, rather than from a third party. Sure, its not as good for the little guy, but that's the breaks, and its WotC's property to do what they like with in the first place.
You forgot watered down. ;)
Seriously, am I the only one that remembers those complaints? How many people have criticized Faiths and Pantheons as being a poor mans version of Faiths and Avatars?
Perhaps. :D
I recall a particularly vocal criticism against F&P was the focus on avatars and less on the churches.
Thats a cool idea (and better then the Faerûn: Part Deux we ended up with.
I like the idea of a vast Spellscarred region - give all those natives some nasty abilites and they could kick those Helm-lovers butts!
Kick 'em all the way back to the Realms. :D
Imagine a truly mysterious jungle continent, where you don't even know f that puny little native isn't going to change into a Jaguar and eat you! Between the Spellscars and those magically-warped creatures that were created in the novel-events, Maztica could have been a Cordellian Paradise! :P
I like. :coolcthul
Might help to break them from history-locked colonial fodder.
Scarey Jungle = cool.
Another continent of medieval Kingdoms = BORING
Only if they treat medieval kingdoms as the same old, same old.
Numerous authors are able to spin off the old tropes into fascinating stories and locales. I don't even need to name some of the, they're so prominent in the genre.
Likewise, scary jungle can end up falling flat if done wrong. FR has it's share of Meh Jungles, original Maztica being one of them.
I don't really have a problem with them doing that myself. I kind of prefer buying stuff straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak, rather than from a third party. Sure, its not as good for the little guy, but that's the breaks, and its WotC's property to do what they like with in the first place.
I completely agree.
I'm not making fun of WotC - I actually was wondering why they hadn't done this sooner (HELLO! There customers were going over to Paizo for FR lore... and finding Pathfinder).
I'm just poking fun at the folks who are lookng at this like they are doing US some sort of favor. :D
Also, from what I gather from the other one of these threads over at CK, the 'new lore' isn't really new, but rather old material that was developed and paid for but never used (like maybe the rest of Ed's Border Kingdoms, or the Moonsea WE, etc, etc...).
So it may be new to us, but it isn't anything recent, and its just another way for them to make money off of stuff they already have laying around.
The PDFs on the sites of other companies could be part of the reason for the pulling of those files, I think. This maybe the soonest WotC could do so. They also don't have a great track record when it comes to digital stuff (website included), so I think they always intended to offer the PDFs for sale on their own site, but haven't really gotten the logistics of it down yet.
I personally think they should offer most of the Realms stuff for free, solves the piracy problem. :D
I personally think they should offer most of the Realms stuff for free, solves the piracy problem. :D
That would work for me.
I'm just poking fun at the folks who are lookng at this like they are doing US some sort of favor. :D
Also, from what I gather from the other one of these threads over at CK, the 'new lore' isn't really new, but rather old material that was developed and paid for but never used (like maybe the rest of Ed's Border Kingdoms, or the Moonsea WE, etc, etc...).
So it may be new to us, but it isn't anything recent, and its just another way for them to make money off of stuff they already have laying around.
Well, if you didn't pick up everything you wanted before the pdf's went off the market, they kind of are doing you a favor if they begin releasing them again.
As to making money off of stuff they already have laying around, I wish a few other company's would do so... I'm still bitter about never having Kithbook: Boggan released from White Wolf... again, don't see an issue with them doing so. Just consider who the likely authors of those unreleased bits are and salivate a litle... unless of course the reason it was never released was that it was sub-par work to begin with. Then it'll be kind of crappy...
WotC OWNS anything said on their boards, so I think a small part of this was also aimed at keeping everything right here at WotC. Now any conversations that are had about the products are all owned by WotC as well... which often include conversions, adaptions, new plothooks, and further detailing.
So now when we all discuss a certain 1e or 2e module and how to incorporate it into the Realms, and what 3e/4e stats to give the NPCs... we'll be doing their work for them.
As if it wasn't bad enough they got the LFR guys working for free...
Sorry WotC, but Lincoln freed ME - do your own godamn work you lazy gits! :P
As if it wsn't bad enough they got the LFR guys working for free...
Sorry WotC, but Lincoln freed ME - do your own godamn work you lazy gits! :P
"Swing low, Sweet Chariot! Comin' for to carry MT home!"WotC OWNS anything said on their boards,
Star Wars.
The rest of your argument isn't exactly accurate either.
Star Wars.
The rest of your argument isn't exactly accurate either.
That isn't how MT meant it... I'm fairly certain you know that, but I'll explain it in layman's terms for you anyways.
Anything on these boards (that applies to their games and they like) they can use without consent from their creator.
Diffin, for example, enjoys making NPC's for FR. If WotC_someone came to his thread and like some of them, then he could just nab them, put it in a book and WotC makes money for Diffin's work.
Plot ideas, mechanics, rules, stats, adventures... anything they see on their boards.
Simple, yes?
That isn't how MT meant it... I'm fairly certain you know that, but I'll explain it in layman's terms for you anyways.
Anything on these boards (that applies to their games and they like) they can use without consent from their creator.
Diffin, for example, enjoys making NPC's for FR. If WotC_someone came to his thread and like some of them, then he could just nab them, put it in a book and WotC makes money for Diffin's work.
Plot ideas, mechanics, rules, stats, adventures... anything they see on their boards.
Simple, yes?
And with your qualifiers, it's possibly correct. But a literal statement, "Anything written on here become WotC's property" is wrong. Also, while WotC say that posting it here makes it theirs, but I Am Not A Lawyer applies - until a court makes it true, there's a possibility that it would be ruled an unreasonable proposition and struck down. Though I wouldn't put money either way.
They don't own Star Wars; they own our coversations about Star Wars.
And I was being facetious with that last part. :P
However, I do believe that at least a small part of the decision to move their properties - which they have been doing for three years - back into their own hands was to keep all the 'buzz' generated by them here.
Other sites tend to talk about other RPGs as well, and they probably prefer customers to only 'get wind of' their own alternative offerings. Paizo was probably the worst 'offender' when it came to that - you go there to buy some old TSR pdf's, and the first thing you are hit with was their splash-page talking all about the wonders of Pathfinder and Golarion.
Brilliant on Paizo's part, and as I have already said, I was wondering when WotC was going to catch onto what was happening. As the saying goes, "The chickens have come home to roost". The last thing any company should want is for customers to visit other company's websites.
This is just WotC (finally) making a smart business move, nothing more.
Right.
They don't own Star Wars; they own our coversations about Star Wars.
And I was being facetious with that last part. :P
However, I do believe that at least a small part of the decision to move their properties - which they have been doing for three years - back into their own hands was to keep all the 'buzz' generated by them here.
Other sites tend to talk about other RPGs as well, and they probably prefer customers to only 'get wind of' their own alternative offerings. Paizo was probably the worst 'offender' when it came to that - you go there to buy some old TSR pdf's, and the first thing you are hit with was their splash-page talking all about the wonders of Pathfinder and Golarion.
Brilliant on Paizo's part, and as I have already said, I was wondering when WotC was going to catch onto what was happening. As the saying goes, "The chickens have come home to roost". The last thing any company should want is for customers to visit other company's websites.
This is just WotC (finally) making a smart business move, nothing more.
Most other pdf sellers didn't work the same way Paizo do. Almost all the ones I've bought came from RPGNow, where they sell products from a variety of companies. They're more like a LGS in that respect, where Paizo are a publishers site. It simply would never have occurred to me to visit Paizo's site for anything but Paizo products, any more than I'd visit SJGames for something other than GURPS.
This isn't to say that there aren't discussions on those sites about other things, but you'll often find that only a tiny number of people take an interest, and sometimes the locals can get a bit upset. Quite honestly the way the internet works it's often easier to find a site where people are already discussing something than to start a discussion on it on a site people visit for other reasons.
Anything on these boards (that applies to their games and they like) they can use without consent from their creator.
-Mentions do need to be made of who creator is. In the next whatever online DRAGON magazine, there can be an article about how WotC can utilize it's message boards that uses our exact conversation here, but in the back (or where ever else) credit needs to be given. They can just use it in whatever way they want, without asking if it can be used or not in that way.
-To tie this back to pre-Spellplague information, this is the reason I have everything from Elves of Faerûn hosted at The Realms Vault. Obviously, WotC owns everything about the Elves in Faerûn, being the IP owners. I wouldn't want WotC to be fully able to take everything I wrote- giving me and anyone else credit, ultimately- and then spinning it in the direction they want, or changing/altering things to suit their needs, or whatever else. They need to do their own work typing, researching, whatever, and so on!
Not that I care - I was actually VERY flattered.
I'm just putting the lie to LK's statement. ;)
Edit: And for future Reference - Disclaimer: ANY and ALL locales and geographic features created by me, and the name given them, on any Forgotten Realms™ maps I produce, are considered to be the sole property of Wizards of the Coast.
Just so they know where I'm coming from....
I NEVER received any credit... and I created three CANON FR locales on Brian's Cormyr map.
-You should have a word with him, then.
-You should have a word with him, then.
If Markus wants to have a word with me, he'll have to do it on Twitter! :evillaugh
Don't know if there are any intellectual property laws applicable to something written on a public forum, since none of what we write is copywritten in any way that I'm aware of. I kind of doubt we have any rights at all when it comes to ideas expressed in what is essentially a public forum... I'd tend towards our posts entering the public domain and becoming fair game by pretty much anyone if anything, if I ventured a mostly uninformed, in a legal sense, opinion on the matter.
See, I've heard that it's not as clear cut as that--internet posts actually are copyrighted...or at least, it's probably smart to assume they are.
I did a quick seach and found a website that gives some information--check it out, decide for yourself. It looks reliable to me.
Anything on these boards (that applies to their games and they like) they can use without consent from their creator.
Can you give a link to where that's stated on this website? I can't find it.
Can you give a link to where that's stated on this website? I can't find it.
Sure, first a quote;
By posting or submitting any text, images, designs, video, sound, code, data, lists, or other materials or information (such User-submitted content, collectively, "User Content") to or through a Site, including without limitation on any User profile page, you hereby irrevocably grant to Wizards, its affiliates and sublicensees, a worldwide, perpetual, irrevocable, royalty-free, non-exclusive, and fully sub-licensable license, to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, perform and display such User Content (in whole or in part) in any media and to incorporate the User Content into other works in any format or medium now known or later developed. The foregoing grants shall include the right to exploit any proprietary rights in such User Content, including but not limited to rights under copyright, trademark, service mark or patent laws under any relevant jurisdiction.
Ehh, I was going to bold some, but the whole thing applies...
It can be found here:
http://ww2.wizards.com/Company/Default.aspx?doc=SiteLegalNotice
-Then he should have a word with you on Twitter, whatever. It's annoying that the PM system here isn't working...I wanted to send a message to someone, and ask them, you know, how your life is going and all of that good stuff, not knowing the person's e-mail address, and I can't do that now.
No need.
This has been brought-up before, and I'm not looking for credit so much as I am taken aback that he thought so highly of me, and am extremely flattered. He has also let me know that in the future any such will be handled differently (not for my sake, but to protect WotC's butt - which I have no desire to get a piece of regardless). Hell, I got permanently injured while working at Home Depot, and didn't sue them, so I'm obviously not the type to do that sort of thing.
Brian has full permission to use anything I say (pertaining to FR), or that I put into print through mediums such as DevianART or Candlekeep, so long as it was about the Forgotten Realms (I do work on other stuff once in awhile).
And since I posted that here, it is made public and the statement itself is now the property of WotC, which they are free to use against me if it ever came to that (which it won't).
Heck, I considered switching to 4e and running a LFR game just to get more of my stuff official, and there is no pay involved in that either. :P
Aside from the ego-stroking, of course... ;)
:evillaugh @ LK's pain at PM-lessness... :P :D
You are so Evil. :evillaugh :P
...more acknowledgment of coming to the 4e side of FR...
Yes... I feel your anger, it gives you strength, makes you more powerful! Give in to the Dark Side... err, I mean 4e FR... yeah...
*Really, though, you run a game online and I'll play.
Eighteen years of marriage to a woman I was devoted to who I now realize never loved me back has made me the world's biggest cynic.
So yeah... I went over to the dark side about three years ago...
I've been to hell and back, and like they say, what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger.
I'd make a great Sith Lord... probably run a great game of 4e too. :P
:evillaugh @ LK's pain at PM-lessness... :P :D
-Thanks. Nice, real nice.
No need.
-Then don't complain about it. Or whatever you were doing.
-Then don't complain about it. Or whatever you were doing.
What I was doing was pointing out the innacuracy of your statement. :P
What I was doing was pointing out the innacuracy of your statement. :P
-Oh.
-Well, no. Brian isn't WotC. WotC is WotC. Anything that was said on these boards is "part" of WotC. Anything said elsewhere isn't. I don't know what was said where or whatever else. Not that it really matters, though.
Anyhow, lets just drop it, because I'm not mad - actually the furthest thing from. I thought that was the coolest thing ever.
As to the subject in general - if they were to take something someone wrote word-for-word then YES, they would probably credit them with it, but if all they did was steal a few ideas, then NO, they don't have to do anything, because ideas are NOT copywritable, and even if they were they have covered themselves with their TOC.
So as long as you don't copy somene's idea word-for-word, they can't do a thing about it (and also don't use any of their IP, like place and NPC names).
The other thing I'd like to point out is that a lot of material from 1e made it into 2e sources (word for word), and a lot of 2e material then made it into 3e... and the new edition author of the tome was given credit, and the original authors none... which I found rather disgraceful, since a LOT of it was just copy'N'pasted.
I now have both the 4e FRCG and FRPG. I have a higher opinion of them than most people on this thread, from what I'm reading. I really like the format of the player's guide, and the campaign guide is a pleasure to read- I'm not sure it's as good as the 3e version, but that's not much of a criticism. I definitely rate it pretty highly.
But something strikes me as plain odd- there is so very little in either book that requires the hundred year bump that I just don't see the need for it. They could have easily kept it to a decade at the most, and the same exact setting could have been spun out- and in some cases it would be a bit more plausible, even. Take Thay- the book claims that there are still towns within Thay that haven't been ravaged and turned into undead servitors of Tam. How can that possibly be the case if Thay is to be taken as a serious threat to its neighbors? They've had a century to raze the countryside- and yet organized, stationary resistance remains. Now, there aren't THAT many examples of this, but at the same time, I'm having a hard time pinpointing an example of a change that is only possible with a century of lost time rather than a decade. I simply can't find one than sticks out to me.
I am in strong agreement with you there. While there have been strong changes to the Realms, areas that most would consider core areas are largely the same as they were in 3E. Cormyr, Thay, the Dales, Myth Drannor, Netheril, virtually everything is more-or-less the same.
But something strikes me as plain odd- there is so very little in either book that requires the hundred year bump that I just don't see the need for it. They could have easily kept it to a decade at the most, and the same exact setting could have been spun out- and in some cases it would be a bit more plausible, even. Take Thay- the book claims that there are still towns within Thay that haven't been ravaged and turned into undead servitors of Tam. How can that possibly be the case if Thay is to be taken as a serious threat to its neighbors? They've had a century to raze the countryside- and yet organized, stationary resistance remains. Now, there aren't THAT many examples of this, but at the same time, I'm having a hard time pinpointing an example of a change that is only possible with a century of lost time rather than a decade. I simply can't find one than sticks out to me.
The time-jump is three fold.
1) They wanted room to write. WotC felt that bumping the timeline like they did, would help the novels.
2) They wanted the setting to be the norm, not the exception. By this, I mean they wanted things like spellscarred, changelands, earthmoats and the like to be around long enough to be excepted as normal by the masses...
3) They wanted to remove it far enough from the negativity it generated. A large number of complaints about FR was the amount of lore people felt required to know to play it. Moving 100 years in the future was, in intent, cutting off the fat.
All of these reasons stem from perceptions that may or may not apply to you.
I have practically every 3e FR sourcebook, and still think that the 3e FRCG was one of the better 3e supplements printed for that edition.
-Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting.
Well, I went to the supermarket today, and was surprised to see that this was one promise WotC kept.
Damn Mark, I had to explain to my wife why I was laughing so hard. That's awesome.
I'll be here all week......or at least until they come take me away. :P
My wife hates those things... calls them evil incarnate. Might try to get her some just to see her face... :evillaugh
I find that stuff repulsive as well... it took a lot out of me just to do that.
I had a ... traumatic experience... with it as a child.
My kids love it, though, so I'm forced to have some at hand (which I keep buried in the back of a cabinet so I don't accidently see it).
-You can ask people who know me, I am anti-mayo.
You are?
-You can ask people who know me, I am anti-mayo.
So that's what that is. I think you might have side-stepped your non-us readers there for a minute MT. I've spent a large amount of time in the US and I still had to spend a few minutes after getting the joke going "so what was that anyway?".
That said, and back on topic, bring on the fluff in whatever era: I already like pre-spellplague era fluff, so more of it please! And more post-spellplague fluff too since I am still looking for that fragment to draw me into (and keep me in) FR as it continues to... um... continue.
You are?
Yet another sign of his abominable corruption at the hands of those elves he so admires... ;)
:P
So that's what that is.
NO... it's not.
I have no clue what LK was talking about, but this is what that product should look like -
It's a marshmellow cream, which can be used as a dessert topping, but is usually (and disgustigly) spread on bread, sometimes with peanut-butter.
Like I said, I had a traumatic experience with it as a child, and I am scarred, and can barely tolerate the site of the stuff anymore...
If LK tried to put that on his Ham & Chesse sandwuich, its no wonder he's against it. That's even more disgusting then my own horrific experience.
Well that`s just fundamentally wrong. I never saw that while I was in the US, and now I begin to understand why. I may have spontaneously combusted just from having been close to something that... putrescent.
Thankyou for resolving my ignorance. I think.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4DKUS_enUS255US255&ei=puoGSrqCPJnGtAOar4H4AQ&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=pigs+feet+in+marshmallows&spell=1
Well, in related and likewise disgusting news, they use pig feet for all things geleton... marshmallows, the fluff, jello, etc...
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4DKUS_enUS255US255&ei=puoGSrqCPJnGtAOar4H4AQ&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=pigs+feet+in+marshmallows&spell=1
-Old news. And lipstick is made from fish scales, Oreos have lard, Tongue is made out of tongue, and a whole bunch of other things. Won't stop me from eating oreos, jello, pudding, and watching other people put on lipstick.
Personally, I'd rather eat pigs feet than some chemical nightmare that may or may not give me some horrible cancer in 15 years...
Yep, and they are surprisingly good... properly prepared, of course. The snout is even better, mind you, especially if it is well-grilled.
-Hmm...Okay, so it's marshmallow substitute stuff. I thought it was mayo. Well, regardless, since I really don't like marshmallows too much, I am still against the product.
Technically, Marshmallow Fluff is just made of corn syrup, sugar syrup, egg whites and vanillin, and it's been sold for a long time - commonly used in many fudge recipes, actually. It doesn't have anything artificial in it, unless it's one of the flavored varieties, and no tetrasodium pyrophosphate or corn starch like regular marshmallows usually have. It's the regular marshmallows that have additives and preservatives.
Not that anyone really cares unless you make certain types of fudge.
I HATE Marshmellows.
Of course, that has nothing to do with my traumatic experience, which centered around being forced to eat Fluff, not Marshmellows. :P
Also, being anti-mayo is just plain wrong. You must not eat any deli salads (Potato, macaroni, Tuna, chicken, etc, etc). I don't think we would have ever evolved out of caves if not for Mayo. :P
Geeze... I can't remember the last time I went through a whole day without it.
Now Ketchup...
that stuff is EVIL!(snip)It's a marshmellow cream, which can be used as a dessert topping, but is usually (and disgustigly) spread on bread, sometimes with peanut-butter. (snip)
No wonder 80% of the US population ranges from overweight to obese!
No wonder 80% of the US population ranges from overweight to obese!
-No, THIS is the reason why.
-No, THIS is the reason why.
That's true. Although it is a mystery to me why anyone would put marshmallow fluff on bread and call it a sandwich. That's pretty gross, and could lead to large waistlines. For making fudge it's excellent as a time saver, after all who wants to spend time aerating liquid sugar when it's so much easier to use marshmallow fluff. But use it as a spread on a sandwich? Doesn't really even sound good to me.
Just consider that two Frappachinos are something like 700 calories... its a pretty big chunk of a 2000-2400 calorie a day diet.
That's quite a bit, considering that the calorie content of sugar is around 400 per 100 grams.
1. Some of these 3e novels set us up with epic storylines or events that have just fallen through or get completly left out. examples include the return of the dark elves, i mean how can a new race (or sun-race if you prefer) can get completly left out is beyond me.
Another example is these deity abosorbtions like sune and hanili. How does that work do gods suddenly have split personalities? that dosnt bode well if you are praying to a god who just happens to be loonier than Cyric and claims to be good. I do wish i had the book still but there is multiple instances of selune and sehine talking to each other. Dont get me wrong i talk to myself alot but I expect a supposed sane deity not to.
2. The NPC's just get an ax to the gut. Now I know some will be dead after a 100 years but some of the movers and shakers cant be dead without a sidebar at least in the source books. I mean how could someone like Storm just disappear in the annuls of history or the shrinshree who just keeps coming back.
3. What happend to advanceing the campain by 10 years as it is mentioned in the FRCS? that would save some headaches if it was just 10 years in the future
4.Now i know that WoTC wanted one core to rule them all (thank you for whoever said this i cant find ya but ill look again)but isnt d20 not a wizard thing? couldnt FR just split off and did that like the WoW RPG.
5. I know retcons happen and all but how can you just retcon this whole abeir thing? dosnt make really work in my opinion as its to much of an impact as there is easier ways to add things in
6. How does magic still work? I've looked at it and looked at it but cant make heads or tales of it. My only thought is that the weave is still around but even harder to acess maker magic weaker as that what it looks like 4e did was make magic weaker. (Now im not sure if it did make it weaker or not because 4e is so confusing for me I think i would just get sick trying to figure it out)
7. The planer shift. Now i know again one core to rule them all. But i mean why do souls suddenly have to go the the shadow in order to get to the fuge plane? They didnt have to go through the negitive energy plane before at least i dont think they did? (can someone check for me on that bit)
8.NPC's again. now this new setting as it isnt the same forgotten realms and dosnt deserve the name, but why arnt there more NPC's mentioned? How are you supposed to make a campain when all you got is like barely a page of names and no clue who is evil and who isnt?
9. the FRCG. why is it so bare of lore? some of the places have only a page with most only haveing 2. I know that for some reason 4e dosnt like roleplaying as much but i dont see how you can do anything with this. (i mean come on 4e really isnt about roleplaying but more along the lines of playing like warhammer or something)
10. now to the topic at hand. why couldnt this pre spellplauge stuff be the campaign as it would make more sense and do they have to charge for their mistakes on boneing us with lack of lore?
well i better stop now before i get in trouble but on some of these questions can i get some answers these are just bugging me. oh and sorry for the rant but i felt this was a good place to ask and if not just tell me it isnt
2 would be as well as im asking about npc's and backstorys and what happend to em
but you no what nvm i guess
Yes... because a thread talking about the possibility of pre-Spellplague fluff is the perfect thread to come onto and rant about 4e FR...
It trickles in everywhere.
At least it's not as bad as it was a year ago. ;)
-Old news. And lipstick is made from fish scales...
Well, lipstick is mainly wax and oil. The fish scales are used for some lipsticks to give them a shimmer.
I don't think it's a big deal, myself (after all, it's not like I don't eat fish).
No wonder 80% of the US population ranges from overweight to obese!
Source? Yeah, I know it's a problem that affects a lot of people, but I've never heard that particular number.
Seriously though, that number does seem a bit high. I've heard figures on the radio quoted as high as 1 in 4, but that seemed a bit... inflated to me.
I've heard figures on the radio quoted as high as 1 in 4, but that seemed a bit... inflated to me.
Double-entendre, much? :P
We are larger because our cows are not mad and our chickens do't have the flu.
Our food is just plain better because our animals and produce are genetically altered - I'd be skinny too if I had to eat the crap they serve over there.
