Please do not remove Akanûl and Tymanther in their entirety from the continent of Faerûn via the events of the Sundering.
Instead, I humbly ask you allow for large swaths of Unther and Mulhorand to return along with portions of each nation’s respective people, while keeping much of Tymanther and Akanûl as well.
Then publish a series of adventures wherein players and DMs get to decide through play which two of the four warring nations wins out, thereby allowing gamers to decide the ultimate fate of these lands (and their pantheons, such as they are).
In my opinion Mulhorand and Unther were well liked, but only for their history and lore; they were never ideal places to set D&D campaigns in.
Whereas Tymanther and Akanûl have shown their usefulness for play in the 4E Realms several times over (and from what I’ve heard, this is especially true for Living Forgotten Realms).
While I think this is reason enough to keep Tymanther and Akanul, I’m intrigued by WotC’s desire to let fans determine the outcome of Realms canon.
So let us decide the fate of these lands.
And besides, as Im always fond of saying, Its YOUR Realms!
I can understand why folks would like Mulhorand and Unther back, I do, but Tymanther and Akanul have both impacted their respective regions beyond merely appearing during the Spellplague. Both, in fact, have played noteworthy roles in the Brotherhood of the Griffon series, and as you have pointed out, both make for excellent adventure sites. I would hate to see the areas automatically thrown into the bin because they are too "Spellplague-ish" for people who disliked the Spellplague. I would hope they would be given a fair chance.
Please WotC, whatever it is you decide to do with the regions, just don't give us a ham-fisted lame explanation for it
QFT!!!
Please WotC, whatever it is you decide to do with the regions, just don't give us a ham-fisted lame explanation for it... I could really care less either way. However, feel free to have the Aboleth Sovereignity expire once fierce tribes of sea-going dwarves discover that hey, aboleth actually do taste just like lobster...
this +1
Please WotC, whatever it is you decide to do with the regions, just don't give us a ham-fisted lame explanation for it... I could really care less either way.
You mean like WotC gave us 3rd/2nd edition FR players with this Spellplague crap?
I'm tempted to say, something that echoes what 4E players have said to us. If you don't like 5E Realms, play in the Spellplague setting.
But I have no objection to keeping parts of Tymanther and Akanul.
I do like the ideas of portals in this region between Abier and Toril. It'd give them an excuse to do write ups for both Tymanther and,Akanul despite both being back on Abier. You could have cities such as the capital of Akanul which via portals exists on both worlds like the,Ramports of Night that does for the Shadowfell and the Underdark.
And Mulhorand had huge roleplay opportunities, it had ruins to explore, dark Gods like Set and Sebek, Political intrigue, the war with Unther, and plots of nearby Red Wizards. It'll be even better now with High Imaskar as a neirbour (High Imaskar was never Abieran so it won't go back).
vote for Dragonborn extinction
vote for pink genasi
Please WotC, whatever it is you decide to do with the regions, just don't give us a ham-fisted lame explanation for it... I could really care less either way.
You mean like WotC gave us 3rd/2nd edition FR players with this Spellplague crap?
I'm tempted to say, something that echoes what 4E players have said to us. If you don't like 5E Realms, play in the Spellplague setting.
Or as they say, "use your old books and have fun". Ah, history always repeats anyway.
Well, if they keep those two continents, my table of demon-trolls can be let loose to have a slaughter-fest campaign of viciousness and bloodshed. (We never continued after war was waged on returned abeir after all.) Since they hate the new races WAAAY more than I do, (I dislike the notion of them being a basic assumption for everywhere, otherwise don't care too much) they can and will go all Dalek on them. But, as I said, as long as they keep material that makes it easy to convert whatever I prefer, I'll be fine.
Please WotC, whatever it is you decide to do with the regions, just don't give us a ham-fisted lame explanation for it... I could really care less either way.
You mean like WotC gave us 3rd/2nd edition FR players with this Spellplague crap?
I'm tempted to say, something that echoes what 4E players have said to us. If you don't like 5E Realms, play in the Spellplague setting.
Yeah, that was pretty much exactly what I was getting at. Though I wouldn't call out 4e players specifically, my ire tends more towards those Realms-haters who made life unpleasant before 4e was even announced. I've no idea how much overlap there is between either group though... but I've my suspicions!
These realms were not treated correctly and the vocal minority was listened too, and somehow the developers figured that the impact my old games could have on the world of Forgotten Realms was null (Yes I know I can keep my realms, but so can the people that want the new Abier lands). Those worlds should never have been removed in the first place.
Keep them playable, so people can still enjoy them, but separate Abeir from Toril. I sympathize with people in the same position I was in back in 2008, but of course back then I was told NOONE played there. At least sticking those lands with Abeir would still make them playable*.
*I realize that "No one takes my books away", but the same can be said for those that want the new landskept on Faerun instead of the Lands that were there before.
Dear WotC,
Please do not remove Akanûl and Tymanther in their entirety from the continent of Faerûn via the events of the Sundering.
Instead, I humbly ask you allow for large swaths of Unther and Mulhorand to return along with portions of each nation’s respective people, while keeping much of Tymanther and Akanûl as well.
Then publish a series of adventures wherein players and DMs get to decide through play which two of the four warring nations wins out, thereby allowing gamers to decide the ultimate fate of these lands (and their pantheons, such as they are).
In my opinion Mulhorand and Unther were well liked, but only for their history and lore; they were never ideal places to set D&D campaigns in.
Whereas Tymanther and Akanûl have shown their usefulness for play in the 4E Realms several times over (and from what I’ve heard, this is especially true for Living Forgotten Realms).
While I think this is reason enough to keep Tymanther and Akanul, I’m intrigued by WotC’s desire to let fans determine the outcome of Realms canon.
So let us decide the fate of these lands.
Excellent idea!
But what I especially didn't like was ALL of Unther/Mulhorand and a third of Chessenta, being replaced by Akanul, Tymanther and High Imaskar (rather than them all popping up in unoccupied zones in FR). Unther/Mulhorand were two very vastly unique human cultures (which admitedly helps when you borrow ancient history) and surprisingly have a lot going on if you care to read into them. They also had a vast influence in the Southern and Eastern Realms, and once held huge empires that spanned over a great deal of land. Mulhorand also was the parent culture of Thay (then again Thay is an undead country now....).
I did however like the return of the Imaskari, altough I would have much prefered if the Imaskari came back to Raurin, their ancient heartland, rather than taking over Mulhorand.
But as far as I remember having heard, Abeiran parts will all go away from Faerun and be it's seperate planet again. However, Genasi and Dragonborn'll still be around, as there'll still be a connection between Realms and Abeir through portals and such (which DMs can choose to dismiss or not, for themselves). This is the best compromise scenario I want to see, if this is not what happens, I hope the worst scenario is at least that they bring back half of Mulhorand and Unther.
I do not like Akanul/Tymanther, and I think they are souless designs. Lazily added, just as parts of Chessenta and Mulhorand/Unther were lazily removed. Created solely due to 4E WotC marketing people pressing FR designers, going "Add this! Add this! WoW gamers'll like it! Money, money!"
But what I especially didn't like was ALL of Unther/Mulhorand and a third of Chessenta, being replaced by Akanul, Tymanther and High Imaskar (rather than them all popping up in unoccupied zones in FR). Unther/Mulhorand were two very vastly unique human cultures (which admitedly helps when you borrow ancient history) and surprisingly have a lot going on if you care to read into them. They also had a vast influence in the Southern and Eastern Realms, and once held huge empires that spanned over a great deal of land. Mulhorand also was the parent culture of Thay (then again Thay is an undead country now....).
I did however like the return of the Imaskari, altough I would have much prefered if the Imaskari came back to Raurin, their ancient heartland, rather than taking over Mulhorand.
But as far as I remember having heard, Abeiran parts will all go away from Faerun and be it's seperate planet again. However, Genasi and Dragonborn'll still be around, as there'll still be a connection between Realms and Abeir through portals and such (which DMs can choose to dismiss or not, for themselves). This is the best compromise scenario I want to see, if this is not what happens, I hope the worst scenario is at least that they bring back half of Mulhorand and Unther.
Actually the portal solution is a great one. Keep Abeir as its own playable campaign setting linked via portals. That I think could please everyone.
As far as using my old books, I don't see this as a problem because I've ALWAYS done this. New Editions do not invalideate older lore and my books are precious to my games. I use 3E stuff in my 4e games ALL THE TIME. And I'm sure if I had any 2nd Edition stuff, I'd probably use that too. What I DON'T use is Mulhorandi/Unther/Maztica stuff because I find those areas laughable and silly. So, if I can get stuff NOW for Returned Abeir and other Abeir places then I won't have to worry about DDN stuff because I'll have this to fall back on.
I don't want Egypt and Mexico back into my Realms. But I'm not unwilling to compromise and I'd just like more information that details Returned Abeir, Tymanther, and Akanûl a bit more. If that has to be done through DDI articles or perhaps their own Returned Abeir splat-book then I'd be happy. Heck, they could bring back those areas and I wouldn't care because I've been ignoring countries for the past 15 years pretty easily and I can do so again. But more info on the places hat might soon be gone is harder to obtain and espically so once they're gone. They want to make portals to Returned Abeir or vice-versa would be fine with me, becuase I could transpose Nations altogether with little trouble.
As far as using my old books, I don't see this as a problem because I've ALWAYS done this. New Editions do not invalideate older lore and my books are precious to my games. I use 3E stuff in my 4e games ALL THE TIME. And I'm sure if I had any 2nd Edition stuff, I'd probably use that too. What I DON'T use is Mulhorandi/Unther/Maztica stuff because I find those areas laughable and silly. So, if I can get stuff NOW for Returned Abeir and other Abeir places then I won't have to worry about DDN stuff because I'll have this to fall back on.
And now we're stuck with a problem. Because legions of people such as myself would be more than happy to see Maztica, Mulhorandi, and beyond get some respect (and some better writing of course) in the Realms. Plus, some of us would happily nuke Abeir/Returned Abeir (which I find laughable and silly) or ignore it outright. I'm just hoping some modular compromise is made. That way, I can get what I want and you can get what you want and there's no direct sting in the so-called "canon" or issue raised (outside of individual table of course)
unther was ultimately already gone
How so?
I understand that Unther was in a real bloody crisis for decades with the tyrannical reign of Gilgeam the God-King (which ended after ToT), seperatist factions (such as the Tiamat followers, and Banites) fighting each other for Unther, and also with the Mulhorandi invasion.
I thought it would have been really cool if some of Unther's old gods (Ishtar, Ramman and Nergal for example) came back and answered their people's desperate pleas and prayers, and helped them reclaim parts of their land, while Tiamat followers took over one portion of Unther. Would have helped solidify the different factions there, and create an interesting environment for DMs and players alike to influence.
I don't want Egypt and Mexico back into my Realms. But I'm not unwilling to compromise and I'd just like more information that details Returned Abeir, Tymanther, and Akanûl a bit more. If that has to be done through DDI articles or perhaps their own Returned Abeir splat-book then I'd be happy. Heck, they could bring back those areas and I wouldn't care because I've been ignoring countries for the past 15 years pretty easily and I can do so again. But more info on the places hat might soon be gone is harder to obtain and espically so once they're gone. They want to make portals to Returned Abeir or vice-versa would be fine with me, becuase I could transpose Nations altogether with little trouble.
And now we're stuck with a problem. Because legions of people such as myself would be more than happy to see Maztica, Mulhorandi, and beyond get some respect (and some better writing of course) in the Realms. Plus, some of us would happily nuke Abeir/Returned Abeir (which I find laughable and silly) or ignore it outright. I'm just hoping some modular compromise is made. That way, I can get what I want and you can get what you want and there's no direct sting in the so-called "canon" or issue raised (outside of individual table of course)
Legions? Ok, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. And I too desire a compromise. I don't think your going to have a problem with the 'Sundering' as it's pretty much set in stone that they'll be bringing back Mexico, Egypt, and those other guys and you'll probably get the info and lore you desire. That's cool. It's not my thing, but I can see how that would be good for the Realms as a whole. What I want is more information about Returned Abeir 'now' before they shelf the entire Tymanther, Akanûl, Returned Abeir elements completely. Traditionalists don't use the information already, so why not continue support for the changes WotC put into motion 4 years ago. Detail these areas a bit, put out a Neverwinter-esque book about them and then, do whatever you will AFTER that fact. Put out information NOW about these regions as they're important currently.
Then, when the Sundering happens and we have loads of information to go on from there, I can be happy with them swapping again. I won't use any of the Egypt or Mexican stuff, but there will be great information to go on from there so I won't have to.
unther was ultimately already gone
How so?
I understand that Unther was in a real bloody crisis for decades with the tyrannical reign of Gilgeam the God-King (which ended after ToT), seperatist factions (such as the Tiamat followers, and Banites) fighting each other for Unther, and also with the Mulhorandi invasion.
I thought it would have been really cool if some of Unther's old gods (Ishtar, Ramman and Nergal for example) came back and answered their people's desperate pleas and prayers, and helped them reclaim parts of their land, while Tiamat followers took over one portion of Unther. Would have helped solidify the different factions there, and create an interesting environment for DMs and players alike to influence.
becuase they finally soccumbed to mulohaund's advances...
becuase they finally soccumbed to mulohaund's advances...
They did, but it doesn't mean they were culturally assimilated or destroyed.
not to point out that alot of us dont have the old lore....
I'm still missing quite a bit. Also, bringing those lands gives writers the chance to rewrite Maztica, Mulhorandi, and others so they're not just Mexico, Egypt, etc... I doubt anyone would really mind if they get an improved makeover, right? (By that I mean using good writing to make them feel like they've always interacted with the Realms and give them that high magical feeling that even Al Qadim had!)
not to point out that alot of us dont have the old lore....
I'm still missing quite a bit. Also, bringing those lands gives writers the chance to rewrite Maztica, Mulhorandi, and others so they're not just Mexico, Egypt, etc... I doubt anyone would really mind if they get an improved makeover, right?
Right, exaclty, theyve been in Primordial/Dragon ruled Abier for the last 100 years, thats bound to have changed them some. I would like to know what New Waterdeep has been up to.
not to point out that alot of us dont have the old lore....
I'm still missing quite a bit. Also, bringing those lands gives writers the chance to rewrite Maztica, Mulhorandi, and others so they're not just Mexico, Egypt, etc... I doubt anyone would really mind if they get an improved makeover, right?
Right, exaclty, theyve been in Primordial/Dragon ruled Abier for the last 100 years, thats bound to have changed them some. I would like to know what New Waterdeep has been up to.
As long as I can ignore said primordial/Abeir stuff
I don't want Egypt and Mexico back into my Realms. But I'm not unwilling to compromise and I'd just like more information that details Returned Abeir, Tymanther, and Akanûl a bit more. If that has to be done through DDI articles or perhaps their own Returned Abeir splat-book then I'd be happy. Heck, they could bring back those areas and I wouldn't care because I've been ignoring countries for the past 15 years pretty easily and I can do so again. But more info on the places hat might soon be gone is harder to obtain and espically so once they're gone. They want to make portals to Returned Abeir or vice-versa would be fine with me, becuase I could transpose Nations altogether with little trouble.
As far as using my old books, I don't see this as a problem because I've ALWAYS done this. New Editions do not invalideate older lore and my books are precious to my games. I use 3E stuff in my 4e games ALL THE TIME. And I'm sure if I had any 2nd Edition stuff, I'd probably use that too. What I DON'T use is Mulhorandi/Unther/Maztica stuff because I find those areas laughable and silly. So, if I can get stuff NOW for Returned Abeir and other Abeir places then I won't have to worry about DDN stuff because I'll have this to fall back on.
And now we're stuck with a problem. Because legions of people such as myself would be more than happy to see Maztica, Mulhorandi, and beyond get some respect (and some better writing of course) in the Realms. Plus, some of us would happily nuke Abeir/Returned Abeir (which I find laughable and silly) or ignore it outright. I'm just hoping some modular compromise is made. That way, I can get what I want and you can get what you want and there's no direct sting in the so-called "canon" or issue raised (outside of individual table of course)
If they want to stack returned Abeir with Lore NOW that is fine. I like the solution of getting Abeir and its outlyers off of the map, and having them connected with portals. Make it a separate world completely. Hell let the Market decide. MAKE an Abeir campagin setting and let people that want it play in it. If WOTC faith it is popular it just might sell.
I don't wnat to see the Dragonborn gone, I can deal with all the races. Forgotten Realms has always had tons of crazy races. Make the lands sunder off of Toril and then there is a permanent portal connecting them. That way anyone wanting to use them has them, and people that want the original spirit of the forgotten realms returned, can have the original maps back.
I don't want Egypt and Mexico back into my Realms. But I'm not unwilling to compromise and I'd just like more information that details Returned Abeir, Tymanther, and Akanûl a bit more. If that has to be done through DDI articles or perhaps their own Returned Abeir splat-book then I'd be happy. Heck, they could bring back those areas and I wouldn't care because I've been ignoring countries for the past 15 years pretty easily and I can do so again. But more info on the places hat might soon be gone is harder to obtain and espically so once they're gone. They want to make portals to Returned Abeir or vice-versa would be fine with me, becuase I could transpose Nations altogether with little trouble.
And now we're stuck with a problem. Because legions of people such as myself would be more than happy to see Maztica, Mulhorandi, and beyond get some respect (and some better writing of course) in the Realms. Plus, some of us would happily nuke Abeir/Returned Abeir (which I find laughable and silly) or ignore it outright. I'm just hoping some modular compromise is made. That way, I can get what I want and you can get what you want and there's no direct sting in the so-called "canon" or issue raised (outside of individual table of course)
Legions? Ok, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. And I too desire a compromise. I don't think your going to have a problem with the 'Sundering' as it's pretty much set in stone that they'll be bringing back Mexico, Egypt, and those other guys and you'll probably get the info and lore you desire. That's cool. It's not my thing, but I can see how that would be good for the Realms as a whole. What I want is more information about Returned Abeir 'now' before they shelf the entire Tymanther, Akanûl, Returned Abeir elements completely. Traditionalists don't use the information already, so why not continue support for the changes WotC put into motion 4 years ago. Detail these areas a bit, put out a Neverwinter-esque book about them and then, do whatever you will AFTER that fact. Put out information NOW about these regions as they're important currently.
Then, when the Sundering happens and we have loads of information to go on from there, I can be happy with them swapping again. I won't use any of the Egypt or Mexican stuff, but there will be great information to go on from there so I won't have to.
I have to agree there. Why not?
They can actually put out a whole campaign book related to the forgotten realms WITHOUT massive apocalyptic event. I have no idea why they felt the need to do that to Neverwinter.
not to point out that alot of us dont have the old lore....
I'm still missing quite a bit. Also, bringing those lands gives writers the chance to rewrite Maztica, Mulhorandi, and others so they're not just Mexico, Egypt, etc... I doubt anyone would really mind if they get an improved makeover, right?
Right, exaclty, theyve been in Primordial/Dragon ruled Abier for the last 100 years, thats bound to have changed them some. I would like to know what New Waterdeep has been up to.
I would rather those lands returned without any crazy 'everything is core' lore attached to it. Drop them back in without the Abeir primordial lore. I really don't even mind the spellplague history anymore, other than the tacking on of Abeir.
Still I am quite happy with the direction the Sundering seems to be going in. It sounds more and more like the solution might be Portals.
I have to agree there. Why not?
They can actually put out a whole campaign book related to the forgotten realms WITHOUT massive apocalyptic event. I have no idea why they felt the need to do that to Neverwinter.
I'm sure that, during the design phase of the Spellplague, they didn't foresee Neverwinter getting the sort of support it did almost 3 years later. Hence why the description of Neverwinter in the FRCG is so vague and just a little blurb on it "being destroyed", because apparently it wasn't really that bad to begin with. Hindsight is always 20/20 afterall.
not to point out that alot of us dont have the old lore....
I'm still missing quite a bit. Also, bringing those lands gives writers the chance to rewrite Maztica, Mulhorandi, and others so they're not just Mexico, Egypt, etc... I doubt anyone would really mind if they get an improved makeover, right?
Right, exaclty, theyve been in Primordial/Dragon ruled Abier for the last 100 years, thats bound to have changed them some. I would like to know what New Waterdeep has been up to.
I would rather those lands returned without any crazy 'everything is core' lore attached to it. Drop them back in without the Abeir primordial lore. I really don't even mind the spellplague history anymore, other than the tacking on of Abeir.
I don't think they'll receive super Primordial lore elements, but I would think it a bit strange for the countries to come back without any signs of influence from the 'other side' after a 100+ year stay. It doesn't have to be sweeping (only being about 2-3 generations) but there SHOULD be some elements of change. Heck, it might be enough for me to actually use it.
I too think Portals is the way to go, that way it's not TOO big of a change if I remove the main elements of the Sundering from my campaign and keep most of the lore/aspects of Returned Abeir, Akanûl, and Tymanther ON Toril. Sure, it's a departure from Canon but...pffff I've been doing that for years and years.
Portals/gates are just about the best, non-contrived way I've found as a DM to move players from one part of the setting to the other. A lot of development went into the why behind ancient portals existing all over the place, so I want them back big time.
Primordials it occurs to me that Tymanther used to be part of Returned Abeir before the,switch. Which means that Mulhorand and Unther may have been surrounded by Maztica. That could be interesting, especially if thier was some exchange of culture both ways. MezoEgyptian, with just a taste of Abeir. That could be cool.
That tells me that Tymanther will be at war when it returns, that part that was left on Return Abeir was conquered by Dragons.
I think Akanul was from a different content so greater Primordial influence maybe felt in returned Chessenta.
Another thought alot of the Action will be in,the south and east, I wonder what they have planned for regions that didn't switch, or change as much such as Cormyr, which is still Cormyr, but bigger. I am betting on a Sembian revolt against Netheril.
The nice thing about the portal idea is that it dovetails nicely with something else I want to see fixed: the Realms' portal networks that were hosed by the Spellplague.
Portals/gates are just about the best, non-contrived way I've found as a DM to move players from one part of the setting to the other. A lot of development went into the why behind ancient portals existing all over the place, so I want them back big time.
It really does seem like the portal idea is the best
I think Toril can have its old map back, and the people that like the Abeir Lands can go through the portal and play.
INDEED, it also fixes the portal issue which was another one of my gripes.
not to point out that alot of us dont have the old lore....
I'm still missing quite a bit. Also, bringing those lands gives writers the chance to rewrite Maztica, Mulhorandi, and others so they're not just Mexico, Egypt, etc... I doubt anyone would really mind if they get an improved makeover, right?
Right, exaclty, theyve been in Primordial/Dragon ruled Abier for the last 100 years, thats bound to have changed them some. I would like to know what New Waterdeep has been up to.
I would rather those lands returned without any crazy 'everything is core' lore attached to it. Drop them back in without the Abeir primordial lore. I really don't even mind the spellplague history anymore, other than the tacking on of Abeir.
Still I am quite happy with the direction the Sundering seems to be going in. It sounds more and more like the solution might be Portals.
Or at least make it easy to ignore. What I want is a rewrite of these settings so they feel like they've always been a part of the Realms. That's one of the reasons I like Al Qadim. The way it was written, it feels closer to the Realms than a lot of other sub-settings. But yeah, I'd prefer if those settings had optional tabs for Abeir/POL tack-ons, so that way if you want them to return and fee like a part of the story, cool! Otherwise, it's all the more easy to ignore spellplague/abeir and not feel chastised for it.
But, as I've been saying in near mantra, "Make the Realms modular. Give options to all fans!"
The nice thing about the portal idea is that it dovetails nicely with something else I want to see fixed: the Realms' portal networks that were hosed by the Spellplague.
Portals/gates are just about the best, non-contrived way I've found as a DM to move players from one part of the setting to the other. A lot of development went into the why behind ancient portals existing all over the place, so I want them back big time.
It really does seem like the portal idea is the best
I think Toril can have its old map back, and the people that like the Abeir Lands can go through the portal and play.
INDEED, it also fixes the portal issue which was another one of my gripes.
Or Vise-Versa, keeping the map of 4E (poor quality and all) and using portals to Mulhorand, Unther, and Maztica. So Portals help regardless of what version you want to use.
As for the portals, it works better going from Faerun to Akanul and Tymanther rather than Unther and Mulhorand because Mulhorand has tons of shared history with its neighbors in Faerun which Tymanther doesn't possess. Tymanther doesn't share centuries of history with the Imaskari or with Thay. It's Mulhorand which shares that history. And so long as Mulhorand's not even on the map you can't play out the tension which exists between all of them as well as Unther. So Unther and Mulhorand absolutely need to come back so we can get back to the story developments which we saw towards the end of 3E, which was the burgeoning conflict between a resurgent Mulhorand and Thay. And now that the Imaskari are back we could see a conflict between them and Mulhorand as well. And with some leftover Dragonborn from Tymanther after it leaves we could also see the Mulhorandi enslaving most of them while the rest either flee to the rest of Faerun or form a resistance movement to fight against the Mulhorandi and free their brethren.
Or do this. Ship Returned Abeir, Tymanther, and Akanul back to Abeir, then publish an Abeir Campaign Guide.
As for the portals, it works better going from Faerun to Akanul and Tymanther rather than Unther and Mulhorand because Mulhorand has tons of shared history with its neighbors in Faerun which Tymanther doesn't possess. Tymanther doesn't share centuries of history with the Imaskari or with Thay. It's Mulhorand which shares that history. And so long as Mulhorand's not even on the map you can't play out the tension which exists between all of them as well as Unther. So Unther and Mulhorand absolutely need to come back so we can get back to the story developments which we saw towards the end of 3E, which was the burgeoning conflict between a resurgent Mulhorand and Thay. And now that the Imaskari are back we could see a conflict between them and Mulhorand as well. And with some leftover Dragonborn from Tymanther after it leaves we could also see the Mulhorandi enslaving most of them while the rest either flee to the rest of Faerun or form a resistance movement to fight against the Mulhorandi and free their brethren.
The bold part is most what I would like to see, but I realize it is probably not possible. I wouldn't like to see the map remain as a 4e map, I think that is the clincher for most of the traditional realms fans. We'll keep the history and the lore, but we want the lands back. I have no problem with portals leading to the lands of Abeir, but I would not be able to swallow the changes as well if Mulhorand and unther were not on the continent of Faerun. The same goes for Halruaa.
I have been playing the realms now with my AD&D and 3rd edition books for all of Pathfinder's run so far. I think the new Realms will give me reason to play in them, but if it is just minor adjustments, there is no reason for me to buy into it and I can continue using older realms material as I have been doing for the last 4 years.
WotC needs to bring the Old Empires back. To much history is lost. I would buy a Abeir Campaign Guide. Let Ed write it!
I would rather see Ed Greenwood focus on the Forgotten Realms and leave Abeir to the 4e developers. Abeir is a completely different world with different flavor. I agree, WOTC should make a separate campaign guide for Abeir, and save the print space in the Forgotten Realms for places that are the Forgotten Realms. It would be convenient for WOTC to make it easily available through portals, and those that want it can buy the campaign guide, and those that do not want it can ignore Abeir very easily.
COMPROMISE!
lets keep ankanul, get mulohaund back, keep earthmotes and keep imaskar
I has no need of unther, unther sucks
You can keep Earthmotes if we can get rid of Akanul and Tymanther and get Unther and Mulhorand back.
COMPROMISE!
It seems as fair as possible to me, to put the Abeiran stuff in Abeir, and bring back the Old Empires in Faerun. You get both that way, rather than one, with there being a special portal connection between Abeir and Toril.
WotC needs to bring the Old Empires back. To much history is lost. I would buy a Abeir Campaign Guide. Let Ed write it!
I would rather see Ed Greenwood focus on the Forgotten Realms and leave Abeir to the 4e developers. Abeir is a completely different world with different flavor. I agree, WOTC should make a separate campaign guide for Abeir, and save the print space in the Forgotten Realms for places that are the Forgotten Realms. It would be convenient for WOTC to make it easily available through portals, and those that want it can buy the campaign guide, and those that do not want it can ignore Abeir very easily.
I believe this is a good compromise. That way I can happily ignore Abeir like it never happened and not have to lose book space as a result. Besides, Abeir fans would more than likely buy the book.
(If only they'd just put all Points of Light content into a separate book... But, it seems like they're doing that anyway?)Split the land area up between all disputed parties (giving each a roughly equal share) and write some awesome fluff about empires clashing.
See this is what I'm talking about.
I'd also like it if there was clashing between the worlds in this part of the Realms too. Something along the lines of this being the one spot that Ao didn't quite tie-off all the way, so mortals get to war it out and make the call.
WotC, give us a couple adventures for this please!
Split the land area up between all disputed parties (giving each a roughly equal share) and write some awesome fluff about empires clashing.
That's pretty much how I introduced Tymanther in my own game. Only part of Unther was crushed - the cities not under the thumb of Mulhorand. When the dragonborn showed up, the remaining resistance members fled north, negotiated with the Mulhorandi, and joined forces to oppose the invading legions of Tymanther (but, of course, that alliance proved to be rather prickly to most of the Untherites). It was a real "the devil you know" situation. I'm not even a fan of Unther but I figured I could put it to good use.
So yeah, I definitely hope to see some piece of Tymanther survive and clash with the neighboring lands. I'd find it a lot more interesting than "Ao paves over everything and Unther is back".
Edit: And I agree with Mr. Misc - a conflict like that one would make for a great adventure.
I'm very much in favor of an Abeir supplement. I may not buy it, but I'm sure somebody would be interested in buying a book on the world from which Returned Abeir (Which should get a real name), Akanul, and Tymanther hail from.
I agree, let the campaign world stand on its own merits. If people like the Abeir worlds they will surely buy the supplement.
It is actually a great compromise, and probably the one that pleases the most people. Mulhorrand and Unther are guarding the portals to Abeir. If a DM wants Abeir to spill over it does. Likewise it is easily ignored if one does not want to use Abeir.
Yep, get the 4E design team back and have them flesh out Abeir as its own separate setting with Akanul, Tymanther, and the continent of Returned Abeir on that planet. Let's see what that world, which is ruled by Primordials and Dragons, looks like. 4E never did get a proper campaign setting using its tropes, so why not make one?
Sounds like a plan! Since fans never got the Nentir Vale gazetteer, that would make up for it... kind of.
I'm sick to death of all of these reboots and RSEs.
Here's an idea - make FR represent the best and most unique qualities from each version. Make it so everyone can find a piece of "their Realms" in the setting.
I don't want Tymanther in Aebir, I want in on Faerun. I liked the clash of cultures. To put Tymanther back on Aebir is to make it completely uninteresting.
This is just a series of ham-fisted backlashes against what ever the designers currently dislike about D&D and the realms. I want some stability in the realms. I want the realms to have the best features from every edition that preceded the newest. I want the realms to feel like a living world. I don't want it to eliminate all of the changes that occurred in 4E, nor do I want it to keep all of them. I want DDN's version of the realms to embrace the best of 4E's changes while doing the same for the previous editions. We could easily keep Laerakond and get Maztica back. Ao is an all powerful deity who can bring gods back to life, he could easily nudge Laerakond south a few hundred miles. Tymanther and High Imaskar could easily still exist right along side Unther and Mulharand. Maybe Ao alters the landscape a bit and adds a few hundred square miles to that area to help give all four a sizable chunk of land?
We don't *need* to keep getting rid of things and altering them like we have been. Let's embrace the full history of the Forgotten Realms and see that every edition is represented in DDN's version of the Forgotten Realms. Embrace the changes that have occurred and ensure nothing is ever truly destroyed or eliminated in a ham-fisted way.
besdies a lost anceint cit full of ancient ilithids would have been better than flying highlander tentacle figh things
While I'm certainly not a fan of 4e (ruleset or fluff), that does sound like the most sensible approach thus far E_Elf. As such, I doubt it will be done that way, but it would be nice to make sure everyone got something out of DDN. Except for that whole Aberration injection Mr. Tentacles (Cordell) stuck in there, that could get nuked and I'd be happy as could be.
You're probably right. Sensible compromises are not something Realms Designers/Developers/Writers are known for.
I'm not the biggest fan of High Imaskari either but I'm sure it has its own legion of fans. The best part of High Imaskari is that it is really focused on just two cities, which could easily be jostled around and move this way or that if/when Mulharand returns.
dont care too much for unther and mulwhatyamacallit
but as you said it too has its legion of fans.
best compromise would be to take their ancient homeland and refertilize it in places and move them there allowing for anceint egypt inspired area to exist.
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I really like that idea. It's a solid compromise that has a fluff-drive reason as to why it should exist that way.
I won't deny I am very zealous about my hatred of abeir and whatnot. I do want compromise however. I want to make it easy to ignore it or perhaps expand content via splatbook or DDI/Magazine content (which might be a great way to revive it) I want to make my own version of the so-called earthy realms and tie them into the Realms as I see fit (my old DM did it, why can't I?) and happily ignore any PoL references without feeling burned by the game and others for doing so... But, at this point I'm repeating myself in near mantra fashion.
You can safely ignore any part of the world as a DM. In my compromise from above, just don't mention Laerakond and claim that Unther and Mulharand are containing and isolating Tymanther. Now you get a more traditional Realms while the guy who loves 4E's Realms gets to keep his favorite areas.
I honestly don't get why people are so overzealous in their hatred of this and that. Everyone loves something and no one wants to see those things they love ripped from the setting. The best way to ensure that doesn't happen is to compromise.
That being said, if they were to be dropped down on Returned Abeir and if it were moved east so that Maztica could return, then that I'd be fine with. Let Returned Abeir, along with Akanul and Tymanther, serve as the Torilian Atlantis if it's decided they'll stay on Toril. That's a compromise I could live with. But if it's a choice between Tymanther/Akanul/Returned Abeir or Mulhorand/Unther/Maztica occupying those spots on the map, then I choose the latter every single time. Above all else I want Mulhorand back, damn it!
As long as it's easy to do either and/or, so that way both teams are satisfied, then that's good. And that's what I want to see accomplished. That way, Trad. Realms exists for my table and Modern Realms w. Abeir exists for your table. Make it easy to run any style of the Realms you want to do! It shouldn't be too hard for Wizards to do this. Plus, this would free up the stress of requiring authors to stick to the current era. Hell, if I had the time, I'd totally draft up a concept for a pre-ToT novel (in the foolish hope it would be picked up)! Conflict will still be existent (Does it EVER go away), but this way everyone feels supported. Sounds like a fair compromise, no?
Even if Tymanther was still on the continent, you could claim that it was being contained and isolated by the armies of Mulhorand and Unther, thus making it an issue only if you specifically went to Tymanther. The same could be true for Laerakond, just avoid going there and don't mention it. With this system, you get exactly what you want and the guy who absolutely loves Laerakond and Tymanther gets what he wants too.
As long as it's easy to do either and/or, so that way both teams are satisfied, then that's good. And that's what I want to see accomplished. That way, Trad. Realms exists for my table and Modern Realms w. Abeir exists for your table. Make it easy to run any style of the Realms you want to do! It shouldn't be too hard for Wizards to do this. Plus, this would free up the stress of requiring authors to stick to the current era. Hell, if I had the time, I'd totally draft up a concept for a pre-ToT novel (in the foolish hope it would be picked up)! Conflict will still be existent (Does it EVER go away), but this way everyone feels supported. Sounds like a fair compromise, no?
Even if Tymanther was still on the continent, you could claim that it was being contained and isolated by the armies of Mulhorand and Unther, thus making it an issue only if you specifically went to Tymanther. The same could be true for Laerakond, just avoid going there and don't mention it. With this system, you get exactly what you want and the guy who absolutely loves Laerakond and Tymanther gets what he wants too.
Exactly. Use what you like, replace/ignore what you don't like! That's part of the fun of modularity. All for Realms and Realms for all! (Okay, I promise to NEVER say that again... EVER)
As long as it's easy to do either and/or, so that way both teams are satisfied, then that's good. And that's what I want to see accomplished. That way, Trad. Realms exists for my table and Modern Realms w. Abeir exists for your table. Make it easy to run any style of the Realms you want to do! It shouldn't be too hard for Wizards to do this. Plus, this would free up the stress of requiring authors to stick to the current era. Hell, if I had the time, I'd totally draft up a concept for a pre-ToT novel (in the foolish hope it would be picked up)! Conflict will still be existent (Does it EVER go away), but this way everyone feels supported. Sounds like a fair compromise, no?
Even if Tymanther was still on the continent, you could claim that it was being contained and isolated by the armies of Mulhorand and Unther, thus making it an issue only if you specifically went to Tymanther. The same could be true for Laerakond, just avoid going there and don't mention it. With this system, you get exactly what you want and the guy who absolutely loves Laerakond and Tymanther gets what he wants too.
Exactly. Use what you like, replace/ignore what you don't like! That's part of the fun of modularity. All for Realms and Realms for all! (Okay, I promise to NEVER say that again... EVER)
Modularity doesn't work for a Campaign Setting because if you pull one strang, it unfurls the entire tapestry - most especially if FR is going to be THE big name setting.
Waht we need is a big compromise with the ability to isolate the areas/things individuals don't like. Molhorand bugging you? Tymanther is totally beating Molhorand's butt. What's that you don't like Laerakond? Well it's an island, just don't go there. You don't like Waterdeep? Don't mention it or go there in your campaign.
As long as it's easy to do either and/or, so that way both teams are satisfied, then that's good. And that's what I want to see accomplished. That way, Trad. Realms exists for my table and Modern Realms w. Abeir exists for your table. Make it easy to run any style of the Realms you want to do! It shouldn't be too hard for Wizards to do this. Plus, this would free up the stress of requiring authors to stick to the current era. Hell, if I had the time, I'd totally draft up a concept for a pre-ToT novel (in the foolish hope it would be picked up)! Conflict will still be existent (Does it EVER go away), but this way everyone feels supported. Sounds like a fair compromise, no?
Even if Tymanther was still on the continent, you could claim that it was being contained and isolated by the armies of Mulhorand and Unther, thus making it an issue only if you specifically went to Tymanther. The same could be true for Laerakond, just avoid going there and don't mention it. With this system, you get exactly what you want and the guy who absolutely loves Laerakond and Tymanther gets what he wants too.
Exactly. Use what you like, replace/ignore what you don't like! That's part of the fun of modularity. All for Realms and Realms for all! (Okay, I promise to NEVER say that again... EVER)
Modularity doesn't work for a Campaign Setting because if you pull one strang, it unfurls the entire tapestry - most especially if FR is going to be THE big name setting.
Waht we need is a big compromise with the ability to isolate the areas/things individuals don't like. Molhorand bugging you? Tymanther is totally beating Molhorand's butt. What's that you don't like Laerakond? Well it's an island, just don't go there. You don't like Waterdeep? Don't mention it or go there in your campaign.
Personally, I want it easy to ignore Abeir as a whole. I want you to have Laerakond by all means! It's what you like and you shouldn't suffer. But, I don't want to have to deal with it if I don't want to. If I must, I can use it as target practice for my troop of sociopath players.
As I understand it, theyre not getting rid of them, they just moving back to Abier. So theyll still be around.
Same thing in essence. They'll no longer be supported with campaigns or novels.
And besides, as Im always fond of saying, Its YOUR Realms!
Easy to say for those that didn't set their campaigns there, and won't have to worry about their realms not being supported anymore.
If you hated "Egypt" and "Mexico" why was it necessary to ship them away in toto and add replacements like gigantic puzzle pieces? Wasn't it enough to just not play in those regions?
Now, if you're going to continue in the current storyline, you have to deal with the possibility of ruins underneath Tymanther (sp?), etc. How deep? Two feet underneath the transplanted Abeir soil? It's completely cartoonish, an entire nation plopping down on a planet.
If you ship that gigantic puzzle piece back to Abeir, it's even more ridiculous. Oh, hey, Toril and Abeir are like giant puzzle-boards, just move entire nations around. Unbelievably dopey.
What happened to previous cultural ties and dependencies? With the new nation, where's the past 100 years of history? Not really there. Apparently it just, you know, happened. And it then was what it was. Let's not explain it or anything, yeesh. What about the time that Maztica has spent on Abeir? After 100 years, will Maztica still be Maztica? Will Mulhorand still be Mulhorand? Eh, let's just plop them back in their spots and pretend nothing serious or meaningful happened? Come on.
Earthmotes stopped being "cool" the moment that there were more than two or three. They were interesting, and had a historical reason for their existence, in the ancient Netheril empire and with Shade. Now, they're just weird and not even vaguely compelling. If they are kept in 5E, as remants of "how spellplague energy did something wacky" then they aren't really getting rid of the spellplague or minimizing it in any real way.
The Realms are irretrievably broken.
This thread is a perfect example of why the Realms completely jumped the shark. It's really un-fixable at this point, because no matter how utterly ridiculous the changes have been some group will plant their "like" flag in them.
If you hated "Egypt" and "Mexico" why was it necessary to ship them away in toto and add replacements like gigantic puzzle pieces? Wasn't it enough to just not play in those regions?
Now, if you're going to continue in the current storyline, you have to deal with the possibility of ruins underneath Tymanther (sp?), etc. How deep? Two feet underneath the transplanted Abeir soil? It's completely cartoonish, an entire nation plopping down on a planet.
If you ship that gigantic puzzle piece back to Abeir, it's even more ridiculous. Oh, hey, Toril and Abeir are like giant puzzle-boards, just move entire nations around. Unbelievably dopey.
What happened to previous cultural ties and dependencies? With the new nation, where's the past 100 years of history? Not really there. Apparently it just, you know, happened. And it then was what it was. Let's not explain it or anything, yeesh. What about the time that Maztica has spent on Abeir? After 100 years, will Maztica still be Maztica? Will Mulhorand still be Mulhorand? Eh, let's just plop them back in their spots and pretend nothing serious or meaningful happened? Come on.
Earthmotes stopped being "cool" the moment that there were more than two or three. They were interesting, and had a historical reason for their existence, in the ancient Netheril empire and with Shade. Now, they're just weird and not even vaguely compelling. If they are kept in 5E, as remants of "how spellplague energy did something wacky" then they aren't really getting rid of the spellplague or minimizing it in any real way.
The Realms are irretrievably broken.
This is the truth. There's simply no way to fix things without an enormous retcon...which pretty much eliminates having such a long varied history anyways. There is no answer that's going to make everyone happy. There's not even an answer that's going to make a majority happy. Whatever they do is going to really annoy a large amount of people.
about canon Realms? Use what you like and discard the rest, its worked great for me for years.The nice thing about the portal idea is that it dovetails nicely with something else I want to see fixed: the Realms' portal networks that were hosed by the Spellplague.
Portals/gates are just about the best, non-contrived way I've found as a DM to move players from one part of the setting to the other. A lot of development went into the why behind ancient portals existing all over the place, so I want them back big time.
I very much agree with this.
We banned most teleportation as a houserule, and rely on portals a lot. It makes things more fun and more interesting.
We still agruing whining and moaning about this? I mean really who gives a
I'd say the griping is getting tiresome, but that was true four years ago.
There are words I could use to describe the situation now, but I'm not in the mood to get banned.
It would be a blessed miracle if people actually bothered to wait and see what WotC does first before they proclaim the sky is falling for the ten trillionth time. (This isn't an invitation for anyone to respond and explain why they feel justified in griping, btw.)
Use what you like and discard the rest, its worked great for me for years.
This. In spades.
After all, you can still immerse yourself in the living Realms and not follow canon to the letter.
I very much agree with this.
We banned most teleportation as a houserule, and rely on portals a lot. It makes things more fun and more interesting.
You, sir, are a breath of fresh air.
Have you ever played through The Door from Everywhere in Dungeon #88? Lots of portals in that one and a lot of fun to play through or run as the DM.