That being said, not all deaths are created equal. It's one thing for a character's death to come at a dramatic point in the storyline, dying as they lived, sacrificing their lives for a cause, or for them to die of contented old age in their bed, a la Yoda in the Empire Strikes Back. Consider the death of Khelben - while many of us were sad to see him go, it was a 'good death', and gave a good ending to his story. It is what the character deserved, made sense, and I'm fine with that.
It is another thing entirely to start axing characters because of demands from on-high, or to otherwise deliberately kill off characters because they are no longer convenient to have around. It is especially egregious when that death is presented in a nonsensical or poorly explained manner, that allows the underlying reasons to become relatively apparent. This sort of thing shows a lack of respect to those readers/fans who were attached to that character.
And it is that feeling, rather than the deaths of characters per se, that I think bothers people.
18DELTA :heehee
And don't forget the last Harry Potter book, that was a bloodbath for a bunch of regular characters from the series.
Yeah, though it ended better then I was counting on. I was half expecting it to end with Harry in a nut house, his mind shattered after the death of Voldemort. Give it a nice, "We won... But at such a great cost, can this truly be called a victory?" feeling. :P
Show
Some of the deaths do seem on the level of the Red Wedding or Eddard's surprise execution in A Game of Thrones. It reminds me of someone expressing their relief that he wasn't chosen to finish out The Wheel of Time. They said that if he had, we would be lucky if we had 3 characters still alive, and all of them most likely crippled in some way.
Still, the primary difference between George R.R. Martin and the 4ed Realms changes, is George R.R. Martin writes a better plot than any other author I have ever seen, and the brutal and unexpected deaths of major beloved characters are used to greatest effect to further the story. A lot of the changes and deaths in the Realsm however, seem to be taking the easy way out. Many are made simply to tie up loose ends or eliminate unwanted elements, rather than trying to further the setting or the story.
This is not an attempt to weigh in on the changes, but rather simply an attempt to state that the deaths, necessary or not, were not done for the same reasons, or carried out with the same proficiency or eloquence.
Still, the primary difference between George R.R. Martin and the 4ed Realms changes, is George R.R. Martin writes a better plot than any other author I have ever seen, and the brutal and unexpected deaths of major beloved characters are used to greatest effect to further the story. A lot of the changes and deaths in the Realsm however, seem to be taking the easy way out. Many are made simply to tie up loose ends or eliminate unwanted elements, rather than trying to further the setting or the story.
This is not an attempt to weigh in on the changes, but rather simply an attempt to state that the deaths, necessary or not, were not done for the same reasons, or carried out with the same proficiency or eloquence.
Yeah, though it ended better then I was counting on. I was half expecting it to end with Harry in a nut house, his mind shattered after the death of Voldemort. Give it a nice, "We won... But at such a great cost, can this truly be called a victory?" feeling. :P
That's what I was hoping for too. Or at the very least, both dieing from the death of the other.
-RW
That's what I was hoping for too. Or at the very list, both dieing from the death of the other.
-RW
Thats the ending I was hoping for as well - a real 'sappy' one.
It just seemd odd that the main 'hero' of the books got to live, while a lot of the people who believed in and followed him died - it 'lessened' his victory quite a bit, IMHO.
And now that it is brought up - I guess the final war with Voldemort was Rowling's 'Spellplague' - she even advanced the timeline. :D
Hmmmm... I can see that Manshoon Vampire becoming FR's version of Voldy...
-RW
I think even RAS is getting sick of him - the title The Thousand Orcs is really poking fun at the readers.
You try taking on an entire 100,000 Orc Horde, wading through them with nary a care... the whole book was ridiculous, and I think RAS knows it.
Its like he was saying "I can shove any garbage at you fans, can't I?"
Drizzt should die not because I (or any other FR fan) hates him, but rather because he should be dead with everything he's done and been through.
Elminster, on the other hand, was not designed to represent someone's Player Character - he is an uber-Munchkin, and designed to be so. Ed writes him as a whimsical character rather then a dark, brooding one so we can get past the fact he is nigh-unto a god.
I like Elminster, because if you use him correctly, he can be a blast. If you need to know why El doesn't stop every little fart from occurring in the Realms, read the comic Grand Tour of the Realms - he has learned over the past millenia that oftimes things he does has GREAT reprecussions later on down through the years, and sometimes something worse takes it place. Its better to maintain the status quo (for both good and evil), rather then un-balance things.
Or, another way of saying it - An evil you know is better then the one you don't see coming. ;)
Its like he was saying "I can shove any garbage at you fans, can't I?"
Hence Road of the Patriarch.
[edit: I bad mouth this book a lot. I am trying to quit.)
I might not freak, but some completely have freaked out at it.
18DELTA :P
So does that make it ok to have a character live forever simply to create a cash-flow off the fanbase? I had moved from reading the DragonLance setting to Forgotten Realms because I had thought that it had brought a bit more mature taste. The difference I relize now is thus: Dragonlance is about heros struggling in efforts to survive, where Forgotten Realms is about how bad ass a hero can look winning.
Since it seems to be Drizzt that is the focus of this, I do tend to agree - there is a point beyond which the story seems reasonable, and it just becomes milking the character out for profit. Part of what ticks me off about the fact that they killed off so many characters was that their justification for doing so ('we needed to get rid of the NPCs that overshadow the players') is belied by the fact that they left one of the most egregious examples - Drizzt - alone.
Ok...this Khelben dude...from it sounds like to me, had some planned death at the end of some trilogy series. That would be the same as Cale dieing off in shadowrealm at the like last 10 pages. None of you can grasp the concept of Realalistic-fantasy. Don't you ever get sick of knowing that Drizzt will always come out on top? (nevermind..you don't..easily ammused readers)
To a point. It depends on how believable it is. I can only stomach so much of 'the heroes win every time' before I start to lose my suspension of disbelief. That doesn't mean the hero has to die, necessarily - that's simply one way. On the whole though, I turn to fantasy for escape from the harsh reality of the world. I have been to war, and I have had people around me injured and killed - I don't need an incessant stream of that in books, too. :P
Since it seems to be Drizzt that is the focus of this, I do tend to agree - there is a point beyond which the story seems reasonable, and it just becomes milking the character out for profit. Part of what ticks me off about the fact that they killed off so many characters was that their justification for doing so ('we needed to get rid of the NPCs that overshadow the players') is belied by the fact that they left one of the most egregious examples - Drizzt - alone.
Is that why they threw away Artemis at the end of Road of The Patriarch? Was he taking away too much potential fanbase sales from Drizzt?
Evris Cale will be the new Drizzt, 10 novels of him being Batman in FR, looking bad ass and kicking the bad guys asses. Same with swordmage, the fact that the little town that no one cares about held off a horde blew my mind and the swordmage took out a warlock knight.
To a point. It depends on how believable it is. I can only stomach so much of 'the heroes win every time' before I start to lose my suspension of disbelief. That doesn't mean the hero has to die, necessarily - that's simply one way. On the whole though, I turn to fantasy for escape from the harsh reality of the world. I have been to war, and I have had people around me injured and killed - I don't need an incessant stream of that in books, too. :P
I just want to see a hero not go into the underdark by himself and than get saved by his most bitter rival. I do not want to see Cale take on the entire Shadovor. I understand that it's nice to have good guys win here and there, but when you see a character getting a trilogy, than you know they are not going to die within that series and it is planned for them to live and make a name for themsleves.
Bel
Regarding George R.R. Martin and FR Character deaths (spoilered for people who haven't read the A Song of Ice and Fire series):ShowSome of the deaths do seem on the level of the Red Wedding or Eddard's surprise execution in A Game of Thrones. It reminds me of someone expressing their relief that he wasn't chosen to finish out The Wheel of Time. They said that if he had, we would be lucky if we had 3 characters still alive, and all of them most likely crippled in some way.
Still, the primary difference between George R.R. Martin and the 4ed Realms changes, is George R.R. Martin writes a better plot than any other author I have ever seen, and the brutal and unexpected deaths of major beloved characters are used to greatest effect to further the story. A lot of the changes and deaths in the Realsm however, seem to be taking the easy way out. Many are made simply to tie up loose ends or eliminate unwanted elements, rather than trying to further the setting or the story.
This is not an attempt to weigh in on the changes, but rather simply an attempt to state that the deaths, necessary or not, were not done for the same reasons, or carried out with the same proficiency or eloquence.
didnt RA Salvatore kill off Chewbaca and get threats for it??
I might not freak, but some completely have freaked out at it.
It was a good one and made Han more interesting thereafter and more like the rogue he said that he once was. But as I remember he wanted to get rid of Luke or some other main character and uncle Goerge said NO! So now there is the same dilemma as here, a time jump 100 years to the future, most are gone, but no one knows how.
I finished reading nearly all the Legend of Drizzt novels.
I finished reading Drizzt novels much earlier. He is boring and his hack'n'slay one man show was not convincing, also that he was always that good aligned was unbelievable for me.
Wulfgar and Artemis are more interesting as characters. They evolve and they had this dramatic changes in their live and learned to see the things how they did.
Drizzt seemed like a fully grown butterfly wielding swords and being always perfect. But if you are already perfect you need not to change, not go forward and so you are boring (in my oppinion. I need some little details wich make things interesting)
No pity for a coward.
I'm not exactly sure what, or who, you're referring to here. I would suggest that you be more clear in the future, as this comment could be construed as extremely offensive if I were to assume that you were referring to myself in the context of wartime service.
I just want to see a hero not go into the underdark by himself and than get saved by his most bitter rival. I do not want to see Cale take on the entire Shadovor. I understand that it's nice to have good guys win here and there, but when you see a character getting a trilogy, than you know they are not going to die within that series and it is planned for them to live and make a name for themsleves.
Again, it's a matter of straining disbelief - how far do the authors go in doing this? A good example that comes to mind are the various David Eddings books, especially the Belgariad/Malloreon series. Long story short, the good guys always win, but more importantly, they always succeed. This doesn't mean that the books aren't an enjoyable read, per se, but after a while you tend to take the story less seriously as a result. I'm only willing to let an author get away with so much before I start to call 'bs' on it.
Reneshat thanks for using spoiler share button and not posting the George R. R. Martin deaths directly into the thread as I'd just starting the third one this morning.
I'm not exactly sure what, or who, you're referring to here. I would suggest that you be more clear in the future, as this comment could be construed as extremely offensive if I were to assume that you were referring to myself in the context of wartime service.
-No. Thats one of his former identities around here. He has been banned something like 4 or 5 times. See Red Wizards Sig for all of his former names around here.
-PS Be very carefull when you are in troll country. ;)
18DELTA :P
-PS Be very carefull with you are in troll country. ;)
I didn't really think he meant anything of the sort, but it was hard to tell what he was referring to, since it seemed like a complete non-sequiter. My best guess was a possible translation error/misunderstanding, hence I wanted to try and put up something of a warning flag to that end.
--PS Be very carefull with you are in troll country. ;)
Now there's an understatement, this place makes Nesme seem like a children's petting zoo
Reguarding Drizzt and his battle against the orc hordes- Since he never really took on more than 5 to 50 at a time, by his statistics and those of the usual orc monster listed in the Monster Manual alone he wouldn't have had a hard time. The average orc has what 5 hp and Drizzt deals 1d6+4 plus 1d6 cold with Icingdeath and 1d6+2 with Twinkle clearly states he's killing orcs by the loads and with their pitiful attacks/damage they'd hardly hit his AC. This is, of course going strictly by the gaming rules and barring critical hits from the orcs and Drizzt but I think it's a fair assumption that he could do the things he did in the book and still live.... and lets not even get into the battles with him and Obould
(just another example of why NPC should never be statted).As for killing off characters...............OP have you seen who's died since the spellplague? This list is probably 5 times the mount of dead NPCs than the previous 15 years of novels. While FR does have iconic characters (Elminster, Drizzt, Cale, etc) they by no means overshadow the PCs and they bring in what authors like to call fans. These fans bring in $$. So tell me why they would kill off a source of income for no other reason that some fans wish to see them gone? This also reminds me of the constant death/rebirth of iconic comic book character (Captain America, Superman, Colossis) which tells me that if fans what a certain character back, they usually get that because they're willing to buy products featuring those characters.
As for authors like G.R.R Martin who kill off character for no other reason than to show that no one character is immune to death, I think is strange. Though I base this on the only book I've read of his A Game of Thrones and from what people who've read his stories tell me, I'm not sure if I want to continue the series. On the other hand, a writer like Robert Jordan who doesn't kill off main characters can advance the plot with characters you can really get a feeling for. Their adventures and exploits carry on novel after novel and though I have only read up to book 9 of the Wheel of Time series, I enjoy his writing style more so than G.R.R Martin.
Lets see...
Reguarding Drizzt and his battle against the orc hordes- Since he never really took on more than 5 to 50 at a time, by his statistics and those of the usual orc monster listed in the Monster Manual alone he wouldn't have had a hard time. The average orc has what 5 hp and Drizzt deals 1d6+4 plus 1d6 cold with Icingdeath and 1d6+2 with Twinkle clearly states he's killing orcs by the loads and with their pitiful attacks/damage they'd hardly hit his AC. This is, of course going strictly by the gaming rules and barring critical hits from the orcs and Drizzt but I think it's a fair assumption that he could do the things he did in the book and still live.... and lets not even get into the battles with him and Obould
How it works in my games: The Orcs surround Drizzt, grabbing at him and eventually he's pulled to the ground by a large number of enemies. Once down he's killed.
The folk who can pull off crap like that are wizards, and that is only because they can fly and attack while invisible.
On the other hand, a writer like Robert Jordan who doesn't kill off main characters can advance the plot with characters you can really get a feeling for. Their adventures and exploits carry on novel after novel and though I have only read up to book 9 of the Wheel of Time series, I enjoy his writing style more so than G.R.R Martin.
I've read all the WoT books and am waiting for the final book to come out. Trust me, Jordan kills off characters, and I wouldn't be shocked if Rand doesn't die in the end. ;)
Sure, he doesn't kill off as many characters as Martin, but that is easily explained in the context of the story. What really sucks for the main characters is that the main enemies can keep coming back, again and again, so long as the Dark One is still able to touch the world. ;)
Now there's an understatement, this place makes Nesme seem like a children's petting zoo
-Merrick knows.
Becareful when the Troll is about. ;) 18DELTA :embarrass
How it works in my games: The Orcs surround Drizzt, grabbing at him and eventually he's pulled to the ground by a large number of enemies. Once down he's killed.
The folk who can pull off crap like that are wizards, and that is only because they can fly and attack while invisible.
Ok, when the orcs grab at Drizzt (a grapple attempt which provokes AoO's) and with their +4 to grapple they still have to hit his AC of 23 (25 if you add Twinkle) which is a natural 20 then you have to appoing Str checks... I just don't see it happening. And if a DM stats Drizzt correctly (not that garbage listed in the FRCS) then he's more than a match for 50 or so orcs.
I've read all the WoT books and am waiting for the final book to come out. Trust me, Jordan kills off characters, and I wouldn't be shocked if Rand doesn't die in the end. ;)
I'm waiting for it too, but I still have to get through the Crossroads of Twilight and the Dream of Daggers first. I can admit Jordan does kill off people, just not main character and even the Chosen come back because of the Dark One touch (rat bastard
). And as for the last battle, I think Rand will die fighting/slaying the Dark one but Nyneve (sp?) is going to perform a healing miracle the worlds never seen and bring him back to life. P.S.- I got word of a Wheel of Time movie and I also heard HBOs doing G.R.R. Martin's novels in much the same way as they did their series Rome. Any idea if that is true?
I've read all the WoT books and am waiting for the final book to come out. Trust me, Jordan kills off characters, and I wouldn't be shocked if Rand doesn't die in the end. ;)
Sure, he doesn't kill off as many characters as Martin, but that is easily explained in the context of the story. What really sucks for the main characters is that the main enemies can keep coming back, again and again, so long as the Dark One is still able to touch the world. ;)
Rand dies and doesn't, that is what Jordan hinted at, either he is gentled or only the Lews Therin aspect is actually killed. And so far no major character has died in the series, just been removed for a while (even the Chosen, with maybe 2 exceptions). No other deaths have been hinted at, the worst thing, other than Rand, is Mat losing an eye. (Note - I am rereading the series, and just started Knife of Dreams, so all is pretty fresh in my head)
Feist's books have a few deaths as well, but all are dramatically used, even when they seem pointless.
Ok, when the orcs grab at Drizzt (a grapple attempt which provokes AoO's) and with their +4 to grapple they still have to hit his AC of 23 (25 if you add Twinkle) which is a natural 20 then you have to appoing Str checks... I just don't see it happening. And if a DM stats Drizzt correctly (not that garbage listed in the FRCS) then he's more than a match for 50 or so orcs.
I don't care what the rules say, as I have Rule 0: "If the rules don't make sense, then I narrate." It's impossible for Drizzt - or anyone else on the ground - to not be grappled by an overwhelming number of opponents. Rule 0 prevents stupid stuff like that from happening, and prevents people from running into the center of tons of enemies.
I really don't care how much of a bad a$$ you are, if you're surrounded by enemies, even weak enemies (like goblins) they WILL eventually overcome you. No, you can't solo an army just because you happen to be level 60 and they are all level 1.
I'm waiting for it too, but I still have to get through the Crossroads of Twilight and the Dream of Daggers first. I can admit Jordan does kill off people, just not main character and even the Chosen come back because of the Dark One touch (rat bastard
Maybe, maybe not. I do think he will die for the simple fact that I believe Lews Therin was supposed to die against the Dark One when the Bore was first opened. However, not wanting to, he devised the seals as more-or-less a half-measure to deal with the problem.
Keep in mind that this battle has taken place countless times, and for the Bore to be opened, it required some method to seal it shut (not patch it shut) in the first place. I think the 'key' to sealing it shut is that Rand has to sacrifice himself on the slopes of Shayol Ghul. This will seal the Dark One in until a new age dawns, when he will be rediscovered and is allowed to touch the world once more.
P.S.- I got word of a Wheel of Time movie and I also heard HBOs doing G.R.R. Martin's novels in much the same way as they did their series Rome. Any idea if that is true?
I don't know, but there have been rumors of a WoT movie for years. We'll see. I don't know how they will do it considering how long the books are - they'll end up cutting tons of stuff out. It is just too bad now that RJ is dead, since he cannot give creative input.
Rand dies and doesn't, that is what Jordan hinted at, either he is gentled or only the Lews Therin aspect is actually killed. And so far no major character has died in the series, just been removed for a while (even the Chosen, with maybe 2 exceptions). No other deaths have been hinted at, the worst thing, other than Rand, is Mat losing an eye. (Note - I am rereading the series, and just started Knife of Dreams, so all is pretty fresh in my head)
Show
Moiraine dies and though it is hinted that there is a way for her to come back, so far it has not happened and the Last Battle is fast approaching. Some of the Forsaken die, but yes most do come back with the exception of Asmodean who betrayed the Shadow, Rahvin who died to Balefire in Tel'aran'rhiod, and Be'lal who died to Balefire in the Stone of Tear.
The reason the Forsaken keep coming back, though, is because the Dark One exists outside of Time and is able to alter the Pattern slightly for those that serve him, calling upon their threads and weaving them into new bodies. A sort of reincarnation, if you will. Of course, you don't always get the body you want. ;) Just ask "Osan'gar" and "Aran'gar" who were once men, and are Aginor and Balthamel respectively.
The reason Rand, Mat and Perrin don't die, or haven't died yet is because they are ta'veren, and the Wheel of Time itself shapes the threads and patterns around them. Thus, it will work to prevent their deaths until the right time. We see countless examples of crazy things happening as a result of them being ta'veren throughout the books, how just being in a location can start wars, cause sudden and strange deaths, and any number of other things. Ta'veren are like the automatic correction device that the Wheel uses to keep things on track. When the Pattern starts acting up, it spits out some Ta'veren to fix it.
The reason the Forsaken keep coming back, though, is because the Dark One exists outside of Time and is able to alter the Pattern slightly for those that serve him, calling upon their threads and weaving them into new bodies. A sort of reincarnation, if you will. Of course, you don't always get the body you want. ;) Just ask "Osan'gar" and "Aran'gar" who were once men, and are Aginor and Balthamel respectively.
The reason Rand, Mat and Perrin don't die, or haven't died yet is because they are ta'veren, and the Wheel of Time itself shapes the threads and patterns around them. Thus, it will work to prevent their deaths until the right time. We see countless examples of crazy things happening as a result of them being ta'veren throughout the books, how just being in a location can start wars, cause sudden and strange deaths, and any number of other things. Ta'veren are like the automatic correction device that the Wheel uses to keep things on track. When the Pattern starts acting up, it spits out some Ta'veren to fix it.
Show
Matt reads the letter he delivered, via Rand, to Thom, and discovers that He, Thom and another have to face the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn from the twisted doorways, in their own tower, the tower of Ghenjies, to win back Moiraine, who foresaw all of this when she went through the rings in Rhuidean.
All to be in the final book
Matt reads the letter he delivered, via Rand, to Thom, and discovers that He, Thom and another have to face the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn from the twisted doorways, in their own tower, the tower of Ghenjies, to win back Moiraine, who foresaw all of this when she went through the rings in Rhuidean.
All to be in the final book
Meldread, as to your spoiler, read Knife of Dreams...Show
Matt reads the letter he delivered, via Rand, to Thom, and discovers that He, Thom and another have to face the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn from the twisted doorways, in their own tower, the tower of Ghenjies, to win back Moiraine, who foresaw all of this when she went through the rings in Rhuidean.
All to be in the final book
Yeah, I know, but it hasn't happened yet. :P So she's still dead. I have a feeling that there will be lots of twists and turns in the final book, and it will likely be the darkest book (and probably the best) out of the entire series. I wish RJ could have written it himself, but I'm glad he was at least able to make a very good outline of what he wanted to happen, and make lots and lots of notes. Plus, his wife was his Editor and she knew the world just as well as he did, so I'm confident it will turn out the way RJ wanted.
She isn't dead, just a prisoner. And Min saw something about her and Thom, the only vision that didn't come true, so we know she will come back.
And I agree that it will be a good book, and after 20 years since the first one it better be. It will just have an odd feel without RJ doing the actual writing.
I don't care what the rules say, as I have Rule 0: "If the rules don't make sense, then I narrate." It's impossible for Drizzt - or anyone else on the ground - to not be grappled by an overwhelming number of opponents. Rule 0 prevents stupid stuff like that from happening, and prevents people from running into the center of tons of enemies.
I really don't care how much of a bad a$$ you are, if you're surrounded by enemies, even weak enemies (like goblins) they WILL eventually overcome you. No, you can't solo an army just because you happen to be level 60 and they are all level 1.
-Novels are specifically written with D&D in mind but not that much for exactly that. :P
Anyway, as long as a characters death has meaning, I've no problem at all with it.
You see, when Drizzt takes on a horde of orcs, sure the Orcs try to grapple him, but as they are still going by 3.5e rules, their 8 intelligence isn't enough to understand the grapple rules. So Drizzy just cuts them down while they work out the intracity of the grapple. Problem solved.
While eight intelligence is below average, it is by no means completely mentally retarded. Orcs spend their entire lives fighting in battle after battle. They're well trained barbaric warriors. They have a firm grasp upon combat, even if they grasp nothing else. It is essential to their survival.
Seriously, I don't care what the rules say. There is no way someone should ever be able to take on an army like that. To me, if anything, that tells me the rules are broken.
The only way I'd accept an army being destroyed / crushed by a single individual is if an Archmage -really- powerful did it. We're talking about Larloch / Shoon stuff here. I don't even think Elminster could wipe out an -entire- army on a good day. (Maybe cause enough damage to force a retreat, but certainly by no means completely defeating them.)
However, a melee character on the ground is going to get surrounded. Once he is surrounded by superior numbers he's toast. Hell if you want it to be epic he might kill a lot of them, but in the end he's overwhelmed.
I -might- be able to accept it if he used lots of traps and ambushes, but even then you're stretching things far beyond believability.
18DELTA ;)
That's the fun of high fantasy, people can do things that aren't, strictly speaking, possible. This is a tradition of martial arts movies and other fantasy works. Yes in RW he would be pulled down and crushed, but in D&D we get to do the impossible and succeed. Else you also have to get rid of magic, since in RW, yelling out weird phrases has no effect, except getting you thrown out of buildings and or arrested.
I don't care. :P
This is why I hate epic levels and high level characters in general. >_>
It doesn't make sense in the context of the world in which they live. Why would nations, for example, worry about training armies when they could just spend all their money training one or two Drizzt's and unleashing them on their enemies?
I don't care. :P
This is why I hate epic levels and high level characters in general. >_>
It doesn't make sense in the context of the world in which they live. Why would nations, for example, worry about training armies when they could just spend all their money training one or two Drizzt's and unleashing them on their enemies?
They do both, Cormyr for instance allows adventurers to buy charters, and uses them as small elite units, rather than risking their own troops.
And your dislike doesn't negate the tradition, so...
Seriously, I don't care what the rules say. There is no way someone should ever be able to take on an army like that. To me, if anything, that tells me the rules are broken.
1st- Well, welcome to 3.5! :P Though the rules are only as broken as you, the DM, allow them to be. Myself, for an example, don't allow Psionics because they are obscenly broken and I don't much care for their mechanics but it's up to each individual DM to allow/disallow things in their games. That being said....
I find it sort of amusing that people can believe in mages throwing fireballs, reversing gravity, flying, and opening up portals to say...the nine hells but not an extremely skills swordsman taking on multipul targets at once. Keep in mind that only 9 opponents can attack 1 character at once using the rules (rules which are in place to add some mechanic to playing a game). And even though RAS has stated multipul times that he doesn't give the rules of D&D a thought when he writes his stories, the rules still (to a degree) allow his character Drizzt to do the things he does.
1st- Well, welcome to 3.5! :P Though the rules are only as broken as you, the DM, allow them to be. Myself, for an example, don't allow Psionics because they are obscenly broken and I don't much care for their mechanics but it's up to each individual DM to allow/disallow things in their games. That being said....
... In your opinion...As much as I dislike seeing characters I like die, sometimes all their stories have been told and its time to let them rest. Time to tell stories with new characters and of new places.
The Realms was never really supposed to be this stagnant place where no one ever died and everything was pretty much the same and good always triumphed.
I like Elminster, because if you use him correctly, he can be a blast. If you need to know why El doesn't stop every little fart from occurring in the Realms, read the comic Grand Tour of the Realms - he has learned over the past millennia that oftimes things he does has GREAT repercussions later on down through the years, and sometimes something worse takes it place. Its better to maintain the status quo (for both good and evil), rather then un-balance things.
Or, another way of saying it - An evil you know is better then the one you don't see coming. ;)
Yeah... but isn't that just the excuse for why he doesn't just smite all the lesser bad guys and save the day? The explanation for why the status-quo has to be maintained.
Aye, it is my own opinion and i'm sure psionics can be used without breaking the game. But from what I've seen players do and the builds they come up with...I consider it to be ridiculously unbalanced. It's bad when our wizard and rogue couldn't compete with the multiclassed psion/soulknife *shurggs*. I do, however, allow such classes as the Tome of Battle, Magic Incarnum (though no one in our group even has the book), and any base class featured in the Complete series. Just to me, psionics have always been an 'iffy' subject to me.
How it works in my games: The Orcs surround Drizzt, grabbing at him and eventually he's pulled to the ground by a large number of enemies. Once down he's killed.
The folk who can pull off crap like that are wizards, and that is only because they can fly and attack while invisible.
Okay mental note if I ever play in one of your games, don't play anything but a wizard, because that's the only way you can do something cool and heroic. A melee character is just a chump after all.
I don't care. :P
This is why I hate epic levels and high level characters in general. >_>
It doesn't make sense in the context of the world in which they live. Why would nations, for example, worry about training armies when they could just spend all their money training one or two Drizzt's and unleashing them on their enemies?
Here's why it can't be done, or at least how I see it. Drizzt (or player characters) are heroes. There is something special about them, they're different than others, exceptional powers, skill, whatever. However they aren't common. They get swept up in adventures that lead them all over the place. A nation needs an army to deal with stuff when the adventurers aren't around. To deal with the 'small' stuff. What if the Heroes are out saving the nation from threat X, and while they're doing that, Orc Horde Y attack? No body would be there to do anything.
I understand what you're saying, but this is fantasy after all. If you can accept wizards that can blow worlds apart, why can't you accept a skilled swordsman that can do the impossible?
Now, back to the real topic of the thread:
Would I freak out? No. Like others have said, if the death accomplishes something, then I have no problem. Chewbacca is a great example. I love the wookie (not in a wookie nookie way, but in a I like the sidekick shtick), I was shocked by his death (didn't see it coming in star wars) and that's what made it great. It took you out of your comfort zone and made Han more interesting.
Now with the realms being 100 years in the future, and a bunch of characters killed off, it doesn't mean that there may not be novels about the characters that are great and go in depth as to how they died. Just because a characters is a footnote in an RPG book, doesn't mean that they wouldn't or couldn't be expanded on in a novel. If they gave a chapter to every character that died in the 100 years, the FRCS would be instead of one volume, a set of encyclopedias.
Personally, I want to see what they've done with Drizzt in 100 years. Becuase, chances are everyone he knew is dead. Cattie-Brie, Wulfgar, Regis and most likely Bruenor. Drizzt would be alone again (save Guenhwyvar) and that is sad, but not unexpected. I'm sure some people will say great more whiny moping, but I actually like that about the character. See, I never read the Drizzt books until a couple of years ago (when they released the legacy of Drizzt reissue) so I haven't had years to get sick of the character. Yes, other characters in the books are more interesting, but I still find Drizzt a likeable enough character.
Another problem I see is that everyone has a favorite character, and if your favorite isn't as common as the others, they won't get much more than a footnote. That's one of the problems with liking a minor character. A group of people whining about a dead hero is harder to ignore than one or two people doing the same thing. Sad but true. It's celebrity worship, plain and simple. The thing is, celebrities are people too. No more important than the person that works at McDonalds. They are more known, but they aren't more important.
So, go ahead kill a character I like. I'm fine with that, just do it in a way befitting the character. But, if my favorite character is Steve the Barber, who once gave Wulfgar a shave, and dies in a bar brawl, whatever. He's not a main character.
Okay mental note if I ever play in one of your games, don't play anything but a wizard, because that's the only way you can do something cool and heroic. A melee character is just a chump after all.
I didn't say melee characters were chumps. ;) Hell, if you read my posts I clearly state that it isn't even happening for wizard type characters unless they are Larloch / Elminster / Shoon level in power.
In my games, unless I specifically state otherwise, the highest level you're going to get to is between 6 and 12th. That's high enough to deal with most basic threats, far above the average commoner, and enough to be heroic without being silly.
After that point you're focus changes. You're in charge of a city or an army. You're role changes from grunt / mercenary / adventurer to that of a leader and commander. Most of your combat focuses upon the exceptional enemies, those that would slay lesser men - you're heroic - but within reason.
So really, it's a non-issue. I believe my method is correct. ;) Just go read any old source material before 3E and you'll find that most of the exceptional people were around 6th to 12th level.
Although, if you go into super high epic levels - like a level 40th Fighter... I suppose I could imagine him taking on a whole army. BUT, let me be quick to point out that he'd be so magic laden and powerful that he's basically a god. Imagine the opening scene to the LotR movie as Sauron moves through the battle field. That's pretty much what it'd look like. At that point, I toss out the rules and just narrate how you decimate them. It's pointless to have rules when you're a god doing battle against mortals.
I use the same method for Elminster / Larloch / Shoon type NPC's and the Gods. They are beyond mechanics. They are, for all intents and purposes to you, the player, are gods that you have no chance of defeating unless you are of similar power. (And in such a case that is when mechanics begin to matter. :P)
I am serious. This is how an Epic Fighter vs an Army looks. There are no rules used. Simply narration.
Show
DM: "You stand alone on the other side of the battlefield. Your enhanced senses allow you to hear the enemy general rallying his troops. Your eyes can clearly make out the troops slapping their shields with their swords. They clearly underestimate you, believing that a lone man cannot defeat them, but you are no longer a man. You are something beyond that, now. Something, perhaps, even beyond the gods."
Player: "I stand my ground and chuckle to myself. It echoes loudly across the battlefield, sounding menacing."
DM: "The troops hear it clearly. Your enhanced senses allow you to feel their sudden unease. You can almost read their minds, feel their courage weaken slightly. You can hear the enemy general trying to downplay it, but for a brief moment you can sense that even he is uncertain."
Player: "I begin to move across the battlefield at full speed, toward the army."
DM: "Your image blurs and it is difficult for you to be seen by their mortal eyes. The enemy general however, notices that you are moving toward them, and he orders his men to charge. Being as well trained as they are, they do so without hesitation."
Player: "I stop about ten yards ahead of the first rank and draw my sword. I glare down at my enemies."
DM: "As you stop in front of them and draw your blade, your stare fixes the first on comers in their place. You can sense their fear. Their faces turn pale, and courage fails them as their blood turns to ice."
Player: "I move about five yards closer and swing my sword once."
DM: "As you move forward toward them, they instinctively back up, and the men behind them run into them. They form into a semi-circle as they push backward against their own ranks. As you swing your sword, even five yards away, without connecting to their flesh they are cut down. A single swing sends ten flying ten yards into the air, sliced in two, intestines and blood spraying into the sky as their hacked torso's fly backward into their own ranks. You hear their panicked screams, but your action seems to have drawn them back to the task at hand. Perhaps it is madness that forces them to charge forward, toward you."
Player: "Without even swinging my blade I simply move my left hand as if slapping aside a pathetic gnat."
DM: "As you move your left hand twenty men on your left side are sent flying into the air as if struck by some unseen force. Where they once stood an opening appears in their ranks."
Player: "I begin to slowly move through the opening, toward the enemy general. I ignore their attacks and throw or cut aside any who stand in my way."
DM: "You slowly begin to move through their ranks. As you swing your sword they are sent flying into the air, sliced cleanly in half. Blood begins to spray everywhere as body parts and guts go flying. As you are about halfway through, you can see the enemy general clearly on the hill overlooking the battle. Your eyes meet with his. You can sense his blood run cold, and he pulls on the reigns of his horse, to try and gallop away. His men hack at you as best they can, but it's pointless their weapons do not harm you and even their best blades break on a single strike."
Player: "I continue to ignore the gnats and jump into the air, flying across the remaining ranks to land halfway across the battlefield in front of the general before he can flee."
DM: "As you leap into the air and this very action send men on all sides of you falling to the ground. With a spin in midair you land halfway across the battlefield right in front of the enemy general. As you hit the ground you set off an earthquake that causes everyone within the area to topple over and fall. The enemy general's horse is thrown to the ground unable to keep its footing. The general falls off, the lower half of his body trapped beneath the beast."
Player: "I laugh. It echoes throughout a mile radius and can be heard by all. I approach the horse, and grabbing it by one of its legs I hurl it aside with ease, and then glare down at the general."
DM: "The horse flies into the air and its neck snaps from the sudden whiplash of being thrown by such a powerful force. It lands some distance away. The generals eyes nearly bulge out of his head. His leg is clearly broken from the fall, but even the pain - which you can sense is horrible for him - is nothing compared to his fear of you. He attempts to slide backward on the ground. He wants to speak, but words will not form in his mouth, such is his terror of you at this moment."
Player: "I simply reach down and grab him by the neck, careful not to kill him outright. I then walk to the top of the hill he was on and look down at his army, holding the fool in one hand."
DM: "As you walk up the hill you can see clearly all below. They are trying to scramble to their feet. In the distance you can see several large trees completely uprooted by the earthquake you caused. As well there are three large fissures in the ground as if the earth itself was ripped apart."
Player: "I look out over the army and speak. My voice easily carries for over a mile, as I hold the general high enough for all to see. 'Look here, and know well that this is the price of treason against me!' With all my might I squeeze closed my hand around his neck."
DM: "The terror in the general's army is evident. It is clear that their will to fight has been lost. As you speak their eyes widen, many of them fall to their knees almost as if in worship - but clearly in surrender. As you squeeze closed your hand around the enemy generals neck his eyes bulge sickly. He struggles, vainly and weakly to try and escape your grasp. Then suddenly, there is a sickening sound and his head explodes like an overripe melon sending teeth, eyes and brains spraying all over. His body, from the shoulders down, falls to the ground at your feet. The battle is over. You have won, as you knew you would, their will to resist you is now lost."
Player: "I stand my ground and chuckle to myself. It echoes loudly across the battlefield, sounding menacing."
DM: "The troops hear it clearly. Your enhanced senses allow you to feel their sudden unease. You can almost read their minds, feel their courage weaken slightly. You can hear the enemy general trying to downplay it, but for a brief moment you can sense that even he is uncertain."
Player: "I begin to move across the battlefield at full speed, toward the army."
DM: "Your image blurs and it is difficult for you to be seen by their mortal eyes. The enemy general however, notices that you are moving toward them, and he orders his men to charge. Being as well trained as they are, they do so without hesitation."
Player: "I stop about ten yards ahead of the first rank and draw my sword. I glare down at my enemies."
DM: "As you stop in front of them and draw your blade, your stare fixes the first on comers in their place. You can sense their fear. Their faces turn pale, and courage fails them as their blood turns to ice."
Player: "I move about five yards closer and swing my sword once."
DM: "As you move forward toward them, they instinctively back up, and the men behind them run into them. They form into a semi-circle as they push backward against their own ranks. As you swing your sword, even five yards away, without connecting to their flesh they are cut down. A single swing sends ten flying ten yards into the air, sliced in two, intestines and blood spraying into the sky as their hacked torso's fly backward into their own ranks. You hear their panicked screams, but your action seems to have drawn them back to the task at hand. Perhaps it is madness that forces them to charge forward, toward you."
Player: "Without even swinging my blade I simply move my left hand as if slapping aside a pathetic gnat."
DM: "As you move your left hand twenty men on your left side are sent flying into the air as if struck by some unseen force. Where they once stood an opening appears in their ranks."
Player: "I begin to slowly move through the opening, toward the enemy general. I ignore their attacks and throw or cut aside any who stand in my way."
DM: "You slowly begin to move through their ranks. As you swing your sword they are sent flying into the air, sliced cleanly in half. Blood begins to spray everywhere as body parts and guts go flying. As you are about halfway through, you can see the enemy general clearly on the hill overlooking the battle. Your eyes meet with his. You can sense his blood run cold, and he pulls on the reigns of his horse, to try and gallop away. His men hack at you as best they can, but it's pointless their weapons do not harm you and even their best blades break on a single strike."
Player: "I continue to ignore the gnats and jump into the air, flying across the remaining ranks to land halfway across the battlefield in front of the general before he can flee."
DM: "As you leap into the air and this very action send men on all sides of you falling to the ground. With a spin in midair you land halfway across the battlefield right in front of the enemy general. As you hit the ground you set off an earthquake that causes everyone within the area to topple over and fall. The enemy general's horse is thrown to the ground unable to keep its footing. The general falls off, the lower half of his body trapped beneath the beast."
Player: "I laugh. It echoes throughout a mile radius and can be heard by all. I approach the horse, and grabbing it by one of its legs I hurl it aside with ease, and then glare down at the general."
DM: "The horse flies into the air and its neck snaps from the sudden whiplash of being thrown by such a powerful force. It lands some distance away. The generals eyes nearly bulge out of his head. His leg is clearly broken from the fall, but even the pain - which you can sense is horrible for him - is nothing compared to his fear of you. He attempts to slide backward on the ground. He wants to speak, but words will not form in his mouth, such is his terror of you at this moment."
Player: "I simply reach down and grab him by the neck, careful not to kill him outright. I then walk to the top of the hill he was on and look down at his army, holding the fool in one hand."
DM: "As you walk up the hill you can see clearly all below. They are trying to scramble to their feet. In the distance you can see several large trees completely uprooted by the earthquake you caused. As well there are three large fissures in the ground as if the earth itself was ripped apart."
Player: "I look out over the army and speak. My voice easily carries for over a mile, as I hold the general high enough for all to see. 'Look here, and know well that this is the price of treason against me!' With all my might I squeeze closed my hand around his neck."
DM: "The terror in the general's army is evident. It is clear that their will to fight has been lost. As you speak their eyes widen, many of them fall to their knees almost as if in worship - but clearly in surrender. As you squeeze closed your hand around the enemy generals neck his eyes bulge sickly. He struggles, vainly and weakly to try and escape your grasp. Then suddenly, there is a sickening sound and his head explodes like an overripe melon sending teeth, eyes and brains spraying all over. His body, from the shoulders down, falls to the ground at your feet. The battle is over. You have won, as you knew you would, their will to resist you is now lost."
I have a great RW example of just such a feat. In my youth I studied Aikido. At one point our local college had a guest speaker, an 8th dan (8th degree black-belt for those of you uninitiated out there), an original student of the founder of Aikido. He was in his 60's. My class was offered the chance to participate in his demonstration, the finale was an en masse attack by our whole class on this one man. Over 20 of us charged at him, fully intending to take him down, yet not one of us got close, we all ended up up being tossed around. So a very skilled individual can fight a large crowd, provided that that large crown is made up of much less skilled individuals, with no training in working as a team.
Orcs may be a martial race, but most are at best low level warriors (in the 3.x meaning of the word) who do not spend time on military drills and team tactics. For the most part they are brutes, expecting shear ferocity and strength to win the day. Drizzt, as long as he keeps mobile and uses terrain to his advantage, could take down a large number of them at a time, all while only receiving a few minor hits.
So really, it's a non-issue. I believe my method is correct. ;) Just go read any old source material before 3E and you'll find that most of the exceptional people were around 6th to 12th level.
And yet they continued to allow higher levels... Yes those individuals were rare, but some people enjoyed playing at those higher levels. Yes you were leading armies and ruling lands, but that just changed the nature of the game, not stopped it. Often there were threats that just could not be dealt with by lower level minions, and the high level types had to hand over there duties for a time to go do what they do best. It is only a problem when the DM and the players can't come up with good adventure ideas for the high level types beyond killing bigger and badder creatures.
If my DM told me I was being given an artificial level limit of 12th level, I would look at him/her, shake my head, pick up my dice and go find a group that wanted to play the way I do. Everyone likes a different style of play, I like high level, with lots of magic, and fortunately the rules allow for this.
Meldread, as to your original point about the implausibility of Drizzt taking on a large group and winning...
I have a great RW example of just such a feat. In my youth I studied Aikido. At one point our local college had a guest speaker, an 8th dan (8th degree black-belt for those of you uninitiated out there), an original student of the founder of Aikido. He was in his 60's. My class was offered the chance to participate in his demonstration, the finale was an en masse attack by our whole class on this one man. Over 20 of us charged at him, fully intending to take him down, yet not one of us got close, we all ended up up being tossed around. So a very skilled individual can fight a large crowd, provided that that large crown is made up of much less skilled individuals, with no training in working as a team.
Orcs may be a martial race, but most are at best low level warriors (in the 3.x meaning of the word) who do not spend time on military drills and team tactics. For the most part they are brutes, expecting shear ferocity and strength to win the day. Drizzt, as long as he keeps mobile and uses terrain to his advantage, could take down a large number of them at a time, all while only receiving a few minor hits.
Good RW example, I study Modern Arnis and I can easily see how a VERY skilled individual could hold off a large attacking force for a time if they are that less skilled then he/she was. Add in magical weapons, magical items, drow reflexes and a far amount of reputation fear and it becomes even more plausible. You use the attackers against each other and keep constantly on the move.
Aye, it is my own opinion and i'm sure psionics can be used without breaking the game. But from what I've seen players do and the builds they come up with...I consider it to be ridiculously unbalanced. It's bad when our wizard and rogue couldn't compete with the multiclassed psion/soulknife *shurggs*. I do, however, allow such classes as the Tome of Battle, Magic Incarnum (though no one in our group even has the book), and any base class featured in the Complete series. Just to me, psionics have always been an 'iffy' subject to me.
With the right spells, feats, and builds a mage can outshine any fighter or thief in their own spheres of training, does this mean that the wizard is broken? There have been a lot of builds on these boards, for a variety of classes that show that someone looking to make an over-powered character can do it, they just need access to the right splatbooks.
As a DM you, and to a lesser extent the other players have to reign in those types of players, if someone is using a build just to have the "best" character, then they are limiting others fun, As a semi-reformed power gamer, I know the temptation, but I have learned over the years to not build characters just to get the most bonuses and powers, but rather to try to build someone I can have fun roleplaying.
Psionics (IMHO) were actually better worked out than the old spellcasting rules, you knew the spells you knew, and you only had to worry having enough energy to power them. Seriously, how do you forget a series of words and gestures, just because you use them, the spell should still be in your head, and you just need to recharge your energy to power it again.
Good RW example,
And very humbling, that little old oriental man sent me flying, and he never even looked stressed.
See that's what I always hated about 3rd Edition. I feel that over time the very nature of D&D was betrayed. I like the challenges everyone faces at lower levels, and as such I try and make leveling fairly slow. You might advance slightly quickly in the beginning, but only to a point where you can actually handle a few fights without certain death. ;)
I like my combats to push everyone to their absolute limits, forcing them to expend their resources. Combat should be deadly and with serious consequences, and as a result resurrections or raises are extremely rare. Often times, the key to success is finding a way to AVOID combat rather than to embrace it.
The way I see things, the Forgotten Realms as they stood in previous editions was not designed with super high level epic characters in mind. The setting does not really reflect their existence. Look at Eberron and you'll see what a world that was closely tied to the rules looked like and then look at FR and know that it has WAY more magic than Eberron. It would be a completely different place if it took it all into account.
I want, more than anything, to have a group come together to tell a good story. Stories in my opinion fall flat when they stop making sense and the world you play in is no longer internally consistent with itself. If someone asks me why something works a particular way, and I can't come up with a good answer, then I feel there is something wrong with the setting.
I think, if you're going to have these types of NPC's and powers to exist, the world MUST take them into account and adjust itself accordingly. I am not even sure what such a world would look like, but it wouldn't look like the Forgotten Realms that I know.
Low to mid level games are great for some types of stories, but epic levels have their own appeal, you can tell stories of fighting off a demon hoard, of facing down some ancient dragon, or of taking on the leadership of the Twisted Rune and living to tell of it. Yes, there has been a sweet spot in D&D of those mid-levels, but that is one of the things they have been working to change, so that the game is more entertaining, and you get a lot more miles out of playing a character.
And the Realms I know do take high level play into account, IMHO.
Psionics (IMHO) were actually better worked out than the old spellcasting rules, you knew the spells you knew, and you only had to worry having enough energy to power them. Seriously, how do you forget a series of words and gestures, just because you use them, the spell should still be in your head, and you just need to recharge your energy to power it again.
I am in agreement here and I loved Psionics.
I always explained the magic system like this... basically, it takes roughly eight hours to prepare your spells. The reason for this is because they are elaborate rituals. You spend those eight hours Weaving together the flows of magic which settle around you. Then in combat, what you are doing is basically "releasing" the spells you've already "woven." So it wasn't that you forgot the gestures or words, it's just that you didn't have the time to begin that entire process all over again.
That's how I made it make sense. :P
But worse than having to explain that away... I'm having trouble with how things work in 4th Edition for melee type characters. I am not sure how in the hell you explain away a melee character forgetting a combat maneuver. "Oh, sorry I can only attempt to impale someone once per day."
Seriously, it is ridiculous, even if over all I like the rules.
But worse than having to explain that away... I'm having trouble with how things work in 4th Edition for melee type characters. I am not sure how in the hell you explain away a melee character forgetting a combat maneuver. "Oh, sorry I can only attempt to impale someone once per day."
Seriously, it is ridiculous, even if over all I like the rules.
I agree on this point. Maybe they should have gone with a series of at-wills for all classes, you just got more as you gained levels, but too late now, maybe 5e.
Low to mid level games are great for some types of stories, but epic levels have their own appeal, you can tell stories of fighting off a demon hoard, of facing down some ancient dragon, or of taking on the leadership of the Twisted Rune and living to tell of it.
I never said that you couldn't tell stories with epic levels. I just said I didn't like epic levels.
I prefer things when they are much more gritty. Heroic, but not super human. That is -my- preferred style of play.
That doesn't mean I don't occasionally enjoy some craziness, but that stuff usually takes place elsewhere. Epic level NPC's and what not, NORMALLY find themselves on the planes rather than on Toril itself. Most of the super epic battles take place up there. Which is a good thing, considering such battles on Toril would usually result in massive devastation. :P
Which is a good thing, considering such battles on Toril would usually result in massive devastation. :P
Isn't devestation fairly normal in the Realms? :P
I agree on this point. Maybe they should have gone with a series of at-wills for all classes, you just got more as you gained levels, but too late now, maybe 5e.
Yeah, I know. I have a love / hate relationship with 4th Edition. I love some things and hate others. I guess what I hate the most about it is how tightly everything is interwoven. It seems like if you try and house rule it too much the whole system falls apart due to the way everything is balanced. So it feels harder to make it conform to what I want than it did in previous editions. On the brightside, it is -very- well balanced. ;)
Isn't devestation fairly normal in the Realms? :P
Yes, but I like to keep it at a minimal amount. :P
-RW
You don't have to be good to be the protagonist, it on average until now tends to be the norm. Given the shift of audience, I'm sure we'll begin to see more Evil/ Unaligned protagonists coming forward. With any luck this will also mean less ludicrous Antagonists, but we shall see.
-RW
Dude, what are you talking about? Seen the new fad around here called "Cale"? Yeah, reminds of some Drow. Both caring a great deal about their friends. Both are of a race that is for the most part evil. Both have to do with being dark. Both have this rival where there is no such thing as death, yet just a even battle that somehow gets broken up with some future threats of the next innevitable battle. Oh, and both of their rivals are exactly alike in such ways: Artemis/drizzt both meele, nieither serve a God, both are the best at their style of combat. Both have magical enchanted items. Artemis has kidnapped that stupid dwarf wanna be human illiterate speaking girl. Cale/Rivalen Both are meele and magic, both serve a God, and are pretty close to both being considered chosens, Rivalen has kidnapped Mags.
Everything is still the same to me from the looks of it. Just slap on a different name, and now you have another succesful FR character.
Dude, what are you talking about? Seen the new fad around here called "Cale"? Yeah, reminds of some Drow. Both caring a great deal about their friends. Both are of a race that is for the most part evil. Both have to do with being dark. Both have this rival where there is no such thing as death, yet just a even battle that somehow gets broken up with some future threats of the next innevitable battle.
Both are of different alignments. Both share a different moral code. Drizzt would never take a life if he didn't have to. He's shown compassion for a goblin, and hated killing an elf who attacked him with the intent to kill first.
Erevis holds no such compunction. He is an Assassin above all else. He may struggle with the light this sheds on his dark world, but he realizes that it's better to be cold and alive, than hesitant and dead. He simply doesn't want to lose himself, as he percieves Riven doing.
But you're not really arguing my objection here. I was simply saying that while the protagonists on average are of a goodly persuasion, that by no means means that they all HAVE to be. And, given the new fan base, it is more likely we'll see a darker protagonist.
Oh, and both of their rivals are exactly alike in such ways: Artemis/drizzt both meele, nieither serve a God, both are the best at their style of combat.
This was done to contrast Drizzts streak of good, with what he might have become had he let himself succomb to the world of his birth. Artemis also stood to show, that even had he been born on the surface, his fate could easily have followed the same path. It is good to see ones self in the mirror, and shed the light on all aspects, and into all areas of darkness, to better learn your capabilities and shortcomings.
Both have magical enchanted items.
Most literary characters of note have weapons of repute or power. This isn't a new trend, Tolkien was worse for this, in that a low magic world yeilded a high ammount of magical equipment into the hands of the protagonists.
That said, who wants to read about a go nowhere farmer, who tills his field all day, with the worst thing he encounters in passing being an infected splinter (I expect rampant sarcasm from others on this point :P). Of course you're going to see repeat abilities and items, when only the most heroic are taken note of.
Artemis has kidnapped that stupid dwarf wanna be human illiterate speaking girl. Cale/Rivalen Both are meele and magic, both serve a God, and are pretty close to both being considered chosens, Rivalen has kidnapped Mags.
You've picked a few things for comparrison, but overlooked the valid differences that remain evident. Simply because two characters are created as opposite sides of a coin, doesn't mean that they are identicle to any other pair. And I'm sorry, but kidnapping is a common enough occourence amongst thieves and assassins, so the chance of two assassins doing it as a means to an end, is hardly reason to cry clone. :P
Everything is still the same to me from the looks of it. Just slap on a different name, and now you have another succesful FR character.
Elminster is nothing like the quartet. The Simbul is nothing like Elminster. Szass Tam is nothing like either of them. Arilyn is a fighter who is nothing like the rest.
You can't draw a conclusion about the whole, based on a select few samples, and a bad attitude towards learning more. :P
-RW
It's not about being the biggest and baddest anything. They simply aren't going to write novels about piddly nobodys. That doesn't mean that characters of relatively low level aren't written about. Narm Tamaraith (Sp?) was only 5th maybe 6th level in the Shandril Saga. The vast majority are going to linger around perhaps 10th level at best, with the obvious loners lingering to either side.
I think if you read more, and were to take a closer look at the world, you'd see this. The major difference here is that the Realms churns out so many novels, it seems like there are NPC's of some repute around every courner, where as Tolkien only has a few titles to his name.
That said, look at historical characters such as Hercules, Achilles, Samson et al. All well beyond the mortal ken, yet the inspiration for generations of characters afterwards. Heroes are by definition above the rest. They can often have very mortal origens, and some may be inflated by story alone. But the common trait remains significance.
-RW
But that is not the case at all. Of the select few you have read, there are always going to be another more powerful.
It's not about being the biggest and baddest anything. They simply aren't going to write novels about piddly nobodys. That doesn't mean that characters of relatively low level aren't written about. Narm Tamaraith (Sp?) was only 5th maybe 6th level in the Shandril Saga. The vast majority are going to linger around perhaps 10th level at best, with the obvious loners lingering to either side.
I think if you read more, and were to take a closer look at the world, you'd see this. The major difference here is that the Realms churns out so many novels, it seems like there are NPC's of some repute around every courner, where as Tolkien only has a few titles to his name.
That said, look at historical characters such as Hercules, Achilles, Samson et al. All well beyond the mortal ken, yet the inspiration for generations of characters afterwards. Heroes are by definition above the rest. They can often have very mortal origens, and some may be inflated by story alone. But the common trait remains significance.
-RW
Ok, other than Rastlin, in DL, there are no super powerful single-persons. Everything is done in a party, rather than FR where every hero solos an entire area by themselves (the thousand orcs). See..even pure meele characters try out the bad ass factor. Look at a song of ice and fire also, not alot of magic? As I said before, FR is all about trying to see who can write the most bad ass character. (By the way, DL does have near as many characters as FR, yet they don't have the same outlook on how heros should be presented)
Tanis/Drizzt
Wulfgar/Carmon
Rastlin/Elmenster
Stupid elf blonde chick/Catter-brei(w/e)
All the FR clearly would stomp the DL heros
Ok, other than Rastlin, in DL, there are no super powerful single-persons.
But look at the number of novels, and developed lore. I am not saying every setting has as many different heroes, simply that the heroes of FR aren't all uber. Also, most DL novels tend to involve similar characters, where as virtually every FR novel has it's own character lineup.
Everything is done in a party, rather than FR where every hero solos an entire area by themselves (the thousand orcs). See..even pure meele characters try out the bad ass factor.
That was a term coined for the number of orcs faced. Nowhere in the novel did he take on 1000 orcs in open combat and win. You're being rediculous, and overexagerating here. :P
Sure he can take on a handful at times, but those are generally inexperienced orcs. By the game rules, probably around level 1-2 warriors, vs a level 16 character.
Look at a song of ice and fire also, not alot of magic? As I said before, FR is all about trying to see who can write the most bad ass character. (By the way, DL does have near as many characters as FR, yet they don't have the same outlook on how heros should be presented)
I wouldn't look to deeply into the Harper series. most of the books are shots in the dark, and the trajectory carried them off into the Realm of talentless authors.
That said, listing a couple of comparrisons doesn't show that there are anywhere near the same amount of character in the two. Like I said, until you have read a good breadth of the novels, you really have no ground for comparrison.
You've read alittle over a dozen, mostly Drizzt, and you think that qualifies you to comment on the over 100 novels there are? :P
-RW
Tanis/Drizzt
Wulfgar/Carmon
Rastlin/Elmenster
Stupid elf blonde chick/Catter-brei(w/e)
All the FR clearly would stomp the DL heros
While a few of those comparisons may be apt, Raistlin =/= Elminster.
Elminster is(was) the favored of his god, and immortal to boot, he has no desire to become a god, and likes to aid others, and to pass along a bit of what he has learned in all his years (if not always in a an easily understood or desired fashion by those he is teaching). He is, more or less, humble and kind, and he likes his elven lasses (or lasses of any race really - well maybe not dwarven lasses, but I would bet on him having had one or twwo of those in his time as well).
Raistlin is an ambitious selfish mage, who's desire is to ascend to godhood, he sees himself as the most deserving of this status. He is anti-social, has no loyalty to anyone or anything, and willing to destroy anything or anyone who gets in his way. He has moments of compassion, but these are the exception, not the rule.
18DELTA ;)
I'll never forgive J.R.R. Tolkien for giving in to rabid fans and bringing back Gandalf.
What?
Bel
What if one of your beloved characters died? I finished reading nearly all the Legend of Drizzt novels. After seeing the disgusting outcome of the fanbase for wulfgar having the need for him to come back. What if Drizzt died? Or Cale? Or Elimenser? Why can't any of you let them go? It's like some 8 year old that can't let go of a stuffed animal. This is why the Realms is aimed at 12 year old readers. Thanks for ruining a potentially good fantasy world for me and some others out there. Half of you people would lose their minds reading any of Goerge R.R Martin's work. Please just tell me why all of you have such love for these saturday morning cartoon characters?
If the FR was just a setting for novels then this would not be a problem. But as a DM having characters that you use just get killed in the dumbest fashion possible is just really not a good thing.
As to Wulfgar I thought his death was lame and dumb...and just RA S. being really lazy as he didn't want to seem to write anything of substance about him and Catti-Brie working out their problems.
If Drizzt was to be killed? Actualy I really loved this character...and if you ask me he has been dead for years now. The character in the books now is a mockery of what it was once. Heck I would be happy if they did kill Drizzt. Now he is just a angst ridden duel weilding cash cow.
Drizzt-Not only escapes once, but returns to the underdark and has his most bitter rival saves him from the most powerful house,than goes on to handle a invasion of orcs eventually hunting them down in the process. (Has super 2xswords and boots and a summonable anytime panther!)
Elmenster-So powerful now that all logic in FR has failed, for what ever reason he does not help during the twilight war even though he is in the area.
Wulfgar-Comes back from the dead and tried to assasinate Drizzt himself with a retarded hammer that can return to you at will (Notice everyone has a uber item?)
Cattre-brie- Not only a s*ut (I have proof to back that statement), her bow is mentioned every 2 pages "that oh so deadly bow" that she could have easily killed Artemis with if it was not for her thinking it would go through him and hit drizzt. (Super bow item!!!)
Tanis- Has trouble dealing with his emotions between 2 girls. Has trouble with stress of leading a party. Attempts to stay as far away from conflict and still complete the goal. (Nothing but his courage and wits!)
Rastlin- Has a terrible cough. Was meant to be 1 person with carmon yet the Gods thought it be funny to tear them apart. Can barely walk without his walking staff. Tryed to take down the queen of darkness, and after his brother screwed him over, he is being totured for eternity. (A staff that can barely make light in a dark area and good for leaning on!)
Carmon- After the trilogy war, the 4th book in the installment, carmon is seen as a fat drunk and his wife kicks him out of the house. (Your average sword and sheild!)
Lunara- Has some stupid high school girl-like emotions that she can't let go of after like a 100 years or so for tanis and follows him around everywhere. (AT LEASTE SHE DIDN'T DO SOMETHING LIKE TRY TO SLEEP WITH WULFGAR BECAUSE HE WAS BEING EMO AND STILL HAVE FEELINGS FOR DRIZZT STUPID s*ut) (Items? NOTHING!!! :D :D )
As you can see RW, even if FR has more books, none of the DL books portray any of the characters trying to be a bad ass, it's more of them struggling. Sure some of the FR books arent of uber characters, but the most bought ones and best selling characters are the uber ones. And there are more of these "super" characters in FR than in DL. On a side note, I think even if they had the same novel count, you would still see a different style from depression(DL) and conquering (FR)
While a few of those comparisons may be apt, Raistlin =/= Elminster.
Elminster is(was) the favored of his god, and immortal to boot, he has no desire to become a god, and likes to aid others, and to pass along a bit of what he has learned in all his years (if not always in a an easily understood or desired fashion by those he is teaching). He is, more or less, humble and kind, and he likes his elven lasses (or lasses of any race really - well maybe not dwarven lasses, but I would bet on him having had one or twwo of those in his time as well).
Raistlin is an ambitious selfish mage, who's desire is to ascend to godhood, he sees himself as the most deserving of this status. He is anti-social, has no loyalty to anyone or anything, and willing to destroy anything or anyone who gets in his way. He has moments of compassion, but these are the exception, not the rule.
Yes see, ED Greenwood made Elmenster this guy who sits back, smokes a pipe, has a new girl every other day (Including his Goddess...).
Than you have Raistlin, this person who was torn apart at birth, has a forever lasting bad cough that can kill him, can not rely on his own body to move, his hour-glass eyes seen too hideous to have relationship of anykind if he were intrested.
Once again, the idea of a follower screwing his Goddess...is..well..trying for that "bad ass" factor. Raistlin is just trying to keep his frail body alive while going for his acomplishments BY HIMSELF, unlike followers..
I'll never forgive J.R.R. Tolkien for giving in to rabid fans and bringing back Gandalf.
What? Please tell me this is sarcasm? You do know that J.R.R.Tolkien wrote every book of the Trilogy before they were published right? Actualy he was still working on them whgen died and they were published afterwards...I think.
and the swordmage took out a warlock knight.
Why did that blew your mind? There's really nothing uber about the warlock knights except their own overblown egos. A good swordmage is their equal at any time.
also the shades are a match for him, something like that happened in RotA
in many mythologies you have mortals and gods screwing (in this case it was an avatar)
What? Please tell me this is sarcasm? You do know that J.R.R.Tolkien wrote every book of the Trilogy before they were published right? Actualy he was still working on them whgen died and they were published afterwards...I think.
-Right. Hence Tolkien's 'Unfinished Works'.
Additionally, you might want to touch on my point, that you have yet to read even a significant portion of these novels. Regardless of the count difference between DL and FR, you still don't have even a passable knowledge of the FR world, and it's breadth of characters. RAS has gotten progressively sillier granted, but I'd hardly call any character in any of the novels 'bad ass'. Perhaps we all just differ in our idea of bad-ass. :P
And properly played, or written wizard would mop the floor with Drizzt. That said, I hardly think that most things he's done are either unbelievable, or uncalled for. Every scenario is well within the realm of feasibility.
-RW
What? Please tell me this is sarcasm? You do know that J.R.R.Tolkien wrote every book of the Trilogy before they were published right? Actualy he was still working on them when died and they were published afterwards...I think.
jk, thank you, I thought I was losing my memory. Tolkien actually finished the Trilogy, it was the 'Silmarillion' he never finished.
-Right. Hence Tolkien's 'Unfinished Works'.
Most of the 'Unfinished Works' were related to the 'Silmarillion' and the history leading up to the Third Age, Tolkien often wrote multiple versions of a tale before settling on one version.
Bel
jk, thank you, I thought I was losing my memory. Tolkien actually finished the Trilogy, it was the 'Silmarillion' he never finished.
I think you are right but I do remember he was still tinkering with Trilogy(I know he wasn't completely happy with the finished product of either Lord of the Rings or the Hobbit)...anyway the orginal post makes no sense much anyway because the Lord of the Rings didn't really actualy get a fan base till the 70's which I believe was after the publications. So there wasn't any fans to be outraged back when the books were orginaly published.
-Frodo Lives!!
Yeah but he also fails in the end.
I am beginning to think that you don't read the novels GSK, and in truth make up the story in your head while looking at the covers. :P
Additionally, you might want to touch on my point, that you have yet to read even a significant portion of these novels. Regardless of the count difference between DL and FR, you still don't have even a passable knowledge of the FR world, and it's breadth of characters. RAS has gotten progressively sillier granted, but I'd hardly call any character in any of the novels 'bad ass'. Perhaps we all just differ in our idea of bad-ass. :P
I think it's because I don't play the DnD game, so possbily I've never felt the need to educate myself heavily with FR. Just enough to entertain myself and yet still question it at the same time. But as you say, I agree, it's not justification to try to out-argue vetren FR players/readers. So, I think I'll listen more instead of talk and cause uneeded conflict.
I think it's because I don't play the DnD game, so possbily I've never felt the need to educate myself heavily with FR. Just enough to entertain myself and yet still question it at the same time. But as you say, I agree, it's not justification to try to out-argue vetren FR players/readers. So, I think I'll listen more instead of talk and cause uneeded conflict.
Me..me...me..me...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyNyHark4xk
I think you are right but I do remember he was still tinkering with Trilogy(I know he wasn't completely happy with the finished product of either Lord of the Rings or the Hobbit)...anyway the orginal post makes no sense much anyway because the Lord of the Rings didn't really actualy get a fan base till the 70's which I believe was after the publications. So there wasn't any fans to be outraged back when the books were orginaly published.
Yeah, that was a sarcastic remark. Don't read anything more into it than my feeling that experiencing the death of a beloved character can be as satisfying as falling in love with them in the first place.
Yeah, that was a sarcastic remark. Don't read anything more into it than my feeling that experiencing the death of a beloved character can be as satisfying as falling in love with them in the first place.
I figured that but there are alot of strange people out there who make judgem,ent on LotR that come right out of left field.
For instance when The Two Towers movie was about to be released people critized Tolkien for callously captalizing on 9/11 Twin Towers attack.
Yeah, that was a sarcastic remark. Don't read anything more into it than my feeling that experiencing the death of a beloved character can be as satisfying as falling in love with them in the first place.
And on a related note, J.K. Rowling did not feel the need to bring back Dumbledore, and you know there was a lot of screaming over his death. Fans, IMHO, were still expecting him to come back for the final book. And Chewie's death in the Star Wars novels (by R.A. Salvatore no less) was never retconned, and he, and the publishers, got death threats because of it.
And on a related note, J.K. Rowling did not feel the need to bring back Dumbledore, and you know there was a lot of screaming over his death. Fans, IMHO, were still expecting him to come back for the final book. And Chewie's death in the Star Wars novels (by R.A. Salvatore no less) was never retconned, and he, and the publishers, got death threats because of it.
IIRC, the same thing happened for DC and Ron Marz when he turned Green Lantern into Parallax and killed him off. The sad part is that, before Hal Jordan was sacked, very few people were reading the comics.
Can't make people care about something until you destroy it. :/
Can't make people care about something until you destroy it. :/
Yeah dude, seriously, I got so sick of people whinning about Areis,Areith..so lame..screw FF7. Cloud wears purple...rofl
Yeah dude, seriously, I got so sick of people whinning about Areis,Areith..so lame..screw FF7. Cloud wears purple...rofl
Aeris. I always wondered why people said that was the "most moving game death". Having played the game and seen it my response was "Um. so?". The same thing happens 30 times a day, even to characters with better writing (most of the Realms lot for a start... woohoo, back on topic!).
Aeris. I always wondered why people said that was the "most moving game death". Having played the game and seen it my response was "Um. so?". The same thing happens 30 times a day, even to characters with better writing (most of the Realms lot for a start... woohoo, back on topic!).
Final Fantasy sucks anyway...great gameplay....Press x...jump...slash...retract...wait your next turn...that and the fact you can't do anything you want with sucha linear story. I thought I was playing a game, not watching a movie.
-RW
18DELTA :heehee
For instance when The Two Towers movie was about to be released people critized Tolkien for callously captalizing on 9/11 Twin Towers attack.
-Stupid, stupid, stupid people...I remember, at the premier of Revenge of the Sith, while I was waiting, I was trying to explain to someone I know's mother, who was there and is way out in left field, on the political spectrum, that the movie wasn't symbolic of George Bush, and the direction America was going in, and that the story had been in place for twentysomething years...
-Stupid, stupid, stupid people...I remember, at the premier of Revenge of the Sith, while I was waiting, I was trying to explain to someone I know's mother, who was there and is way out in left field, on the political spectrum, that the movie wasn't symbolic of George Bush, and the direction America was going in, and that the story had been in place for twentysomething years...
-What? Dubya isn't the Anti-Christ!
;) 18DELTA :P
-What? Dubya isn't the Anti-Christ!
18DELTA :P
-I don't know. Not my religion, so I don't pay attention to it. He may or may not be.
Whats wrong with purple? Not comfotable enough in your sexuality to pull it off?:P
Rofl, yeah I remember the kids back in high school wearing a pink t-shirt-"It takes a real man to wear pink"
I actually liked squall better than cloud. He pulled off the emo thing before emo was actually in play. Then everyone ruined it when they tryed to make it into some sort of style. Kinda like myspace, that was meant for music bands, then some attention seekers had to ruin that was well! Btw, at least squall doesn't have blocks for hands.
-I don't know. Not my religion, so I don't pay attention to it. He may or may not be.
You have a religion??