Type:
Location:
Source(s):
Aulmpiter
Nycaloth
Slain
Fall of Myth Drannor, Volo's Guide to All Things Magical, the Last Mythal trilogy
Bubonis
Ultralolth
Obsidian Tower, Bloodrift
Resurrection
Gaulguth
Nycaloth
Slain
Cult of the Dragon, Fall of Myth Drannor, Volo's Guide to All Things Magical, the Last Mythal trilogy
Inthracis
Ultroloth
Gehenna
The War of the Spider Queen
Kexxon
Unknown
Gehenna
The War of the Spider Queen
Malimshaer
Nycaloth
Slain
Fall of Myth Drannor, Volo's Guide to All Things Magical, the Last Mythal trilogy
Nisviim
Arcanalolth
Corpsehaven, Bloodrift
Resurrection
Tyranthraxus
Unique
Unknown, Believed slain
Curse of the Azure Bonds
Yrkhetep
Arcanaloth
Gehenna
Swords of the Iron Legion
BTW, Does Shemmy count?
Abyss
Champions of Ruin
Inthracis (Ultroloth)
Corpsehaven, Bloodrift
Resurrection
Kexxon (Ultrololth and Oinioloth)
Steel Keep, Bloodrift
Resurrection
Bubonis (Ultrololth0
Obsidion Tower, Bloodrift
Resurrection
Nisviim (Arcanelolth)
Corpsehaven, Bloodrift
Resurrection
Charon
River of Blood, Bloodrift
Monster Manuel II
Aulmpiter
Dead, 15 Flamerule by Fflar Starbrow
The Fall of Myth Drannor
If I remember correctly Edward Boney's "Pox of the Planes" has alot of info on the subject, in Dragon Annual #2.
Malkizid
Abyss
Champions of Ruin
Malkizid is a devil.
Malkizid
Abyss
Champions of Ruin
Malkazid isn't a yugoloth. I wouldn't count him as a yugoloth lord either. They don't recruit any non-yugoloths into their race. Period. They don't even use mortal souls to create more of themselves.
I have no idea why Malkazid was ever described in any capacity as dealing with the 'loths, since it represented a complete break with literally every aspect of yugoloth society, and it didn't bother to describe -why- it was possible. It could have been a great plot hook and some seriously cool fluff, but instead it came off as kinda lazy design.
Malkizid is a devil.
That, too.:D
Orignally a Solar, he was cast down into the Nine Hells. Thousands of years ago, he displeased Asmodeus, and he and some of his followers were exiled. He settled with the Yuggoloths, and is now considered both a Yuggoloth Lord and an Archdevil in exile.
Talk about a convoluted status...
Also, since angels are now servants of Deities, and no longer just creatures of good, would Malkizid, being a former angel, have heeded the call of the divine?..
Mmmh...
And there's a metric ton I could add here, but do you want to restrict yourself to only using material from the 1e/2e/3e Great Wheel cosmology, the 3e FR cosmology that retcons much of their heirarchy, or the 4e cosmology where 'loths largely don't exist in any recognizable form?
-Anything that's canon.
-Anything that's canon.
Well a lot of canon from 1e/2e is mutually exclusive to canon from 3e and both of them are mutually exclusive to 4e.
Name: A'kin
Species: Arcanaloth
Alias: The Friendly Fiend
Desc: Head of a fanged jackal. Wide, white strip of fur partially encircling his golden eyes like a bandit's mask. Six golden hoop earrings in his ears. Hair pulled into multiple tiny tufts, held together by golden bands. Clean, sandy brown fur. Wears a robe speckled with teal, gold, and black. Low, raspy voice.
Operates: "The Friendly Fiend", a magic item shop in Sigil
Source: Uncaged: Faces of Sigil
Name: Duke Dyavin B'Wee
Species: Arcanaloth
Alias: Dyavin
Desc: Thin, almost skeletal, covered in stiff white fur.
Operates: Dyavin is a record-keeper in the Tower Arcane in Gehenna. His title "Duke" probably indicates he's quite a high-up there. He's also an ally of A'kin, helping the Friendly Fiend procure documents and bits of chant in exchange for favors.
Source: Hellbound: The Blood War
Name: M'trenz Ro
Species: Ultroloth
Alias: M'trenz
Desc: Faceless, eyes like fire-opals.
Operates: Wanders the Outlands, claiming to be on the run from his race. Often hires mortal pawns for missions to the Lower Planes.
Source: Hellbound: The Blood War
Name: Krell
Species: Arcanaloth
Alias: none
Desc: Wolf-headed, so gaunt her ribs visibly show through her skin. Her cape is in tatters, her brown fur is mangy, and her eyes are red from weeping. She stinks of urine and arcanaloth-poo.
Operates: From a cave in Colothys in Carceri, where she fled after being stripped of her rank and power due to political disagreements with a higher-ranking arcanaloth. May ultimately turn to good in desperation, but will become evil again if she gets her power back.
Source: Well of Worlds
Name: Shemeshka the Marauder
Species: Arcanaloth
Alias: King of the Cross-Trade
Desc: Face like a groomed fox from the fields of Arcadia. Her spotless coppery fur is soft and tangle-free, and thin white streaks fan out from the end of her snout to the edges of her face. She's never without her spidery razorvine headdress, and would not be caught dead without her garish beads, jewelry, bracelets, ring, or regal robe.
Operates: The Fortune's Wheel, an opulent gambling bar in The Lady's Ward where the rich and powerful conduct secretive dealings.
Source: Uncaged: Faces of Sigil
Name: The General of Gehenna
Species: Ultroloth? (probably)
Alias: unknown
Desc: unknown
Operates: The Crawling City in Gehenna. Controls the entire yugoloth race. Puppetmaster of the Blood War.
Source: Planescape Monstrous Compendium, Hellbound: The Blood War, Faces of Evil: The Fiends, 3rd edition Manual of the Planes
Name: unknown
Species: Ultroloth
Alias: unknown
Desc: Bald, fire-opal eyes
Operates: Is an observer of the Blood War roaming the Field of Nettles in the Gray Waste. If the PCs don't bother it, it won't bother them.
Source: Hellbound: The Blood War
Name: unknown
Species: Ultroloth
Alias: unknown
Desc: Motionless, its spare frame covered by a voluminous black cloak. Ebony eyes. Voice like the buzzing of strange bees in a hive or the crash of acidic waves on a sulfurous shore.
Operates: In a cavern in the Outlands or a house in Hopeless, angered by arms shipments from the Upper Planes. Wants the celestials to keep their noses out of the Blood War.
Source: Hellbound: The Blood War
Name: unknown
Species: Ultroloth
Alias: Crassag's Master
Desc: Its form melds to its throne like clay, its smooth, supple hands caressing the arms of the rough stone seat. Piercing, fiery white eyes. Capable of agile leaps.
Operates: A cavern made from the living, agonized bodies of yugoloths of every type. It sits on an animate throne.
Source: Hellbound: The Blood War
Name: Anthraxus
Species: Altraloth (former ultroloth)
Alias: The Diseased
Desc: 10' tall man in a rotting gray suit and cape, ram's head grossly deformed by disease. Foamy spittle drips constantly from his mouth, and the matted wool on his body pulls away from his skin in handfuls. Anthraxus' skin is covered with festering boils which continually burst spraying out foul yellow pus while peeling Anthraxus' skin away from the fleshy tissue underneath.
Operates. Former Oinoloth (preceding Mydianchlarus). He wanders between numerous hidden keeps and safehouses throughout the Lower Planes filled with magical items and money. He uses these riches to finance the obsessive schemes that bring him ever closer to reclaiming Khin-Oin.
Source: Dragon Magazine Annual #2
Name: Mydianchlarus
Species: Ultroloth
Alias: unknown
Desc: Faceless humanoid with large eyes that resemble fire-opals. Dark gray skin and flowing cloak. Unlike every other Oinoloth, the power of the Siege Malicious has left no marks on the face of Mydianchlarus; it is as smooth and unsullied as it was when he first became an ultroloth. Only three physical changes are known: his footprints are bloody; the hem of his robe is red and dripping even in the gloom of the Waste; a trail of blood follows him wherever he goes. This, for Mydianchlarus, is curse enough; his cherished anonymity is now gone forever.
Operates: From the Wasting Tower of Khin-Oin in the Gray Waste, where he rules as the current Oinoloth. Chant is that he made Anthraxus give up his post by whispering a single secret in his ear.
Source: Faces of Evil: The Fiends, Description by Rip
Name: Bubonix
Species: Altraloth (former arcanaloth)
Alias: Overlord of Carceri
Desc: 12' tall hideous humanoid covered in putrid black lumpy sores. His body exudes the stench of decayed, rotting flesh. Bubonix always wears a military uniform of the purest white, which is somehow not stained from the constant flow of blackest pus oozing from his sores.
Operates: Patiently camped outside the still-under-construction Tower of Incarnate Pain in Carceri. Bubonix sees himself as eventually becoming the self-styled counterpart of the General of Gehenna.
Source: Dragon Magazine Annual #2
Name: Cholerix
Species: Altraloth (former nycaloth)
Alias: unknown
Desc: A dehydrated nycaloth stands, its wings withered into vestigial limbs, its face nothing more than a skull with sickly jaundiced, faintly green tinged skin stretched over it. Dressed in a deep red robe that hurts the eyes while in the Waste, the altraloth is decked in gold and jewels. Though you cannot explain why, you know this being is female. The stench of urea and vomit surround her, though her emaciated body seems paradoxically sterile. This is the form of Cholerix, an altraloth whose only seeming ambition is to serve Bubonix in return for wealth unending.
Operates: Oversees the yugoloth army camped outside the still-under-construction Tower of Incarnate Pain in Carceri and personally meets with tanar'ri lords to forge mercenary contracts on behalf of Bubonix.
Source: Dragon Magazine Annual #2, sciborg from the Wizards boards (who I stole the description from)
Name: Xengahra
Species: Altraloth
Alias: Death-Bringer, the Fallen One
Desc: Were it not for the expression of utter despair that hangs upon this altraloth's haggard face, a blood might believe herself in the presence of a true solar, the most powerful of aasimon.
Operates: As an outcast, Xengahra has taken to roaming the Outlands these past few centuries. He drains away life from even the heartiest of celestials. He is the literal embodiment of hopelessness.
Source: Dragon Magazine Annual #2
Name: Cerlic
Species: Altraloth
Alias: Charon, the Stygian Boatman, the Ferryman
Desc: He appears as a large, skeletal marraenoloth standing just 7' tall with bright green eyes that glow malevolently.
Operates: A stronghold on the Astral Plane built entirely of black ice. Cerlic is lord and defender of all the marraenoloths.
Source: Dragon Magazine Annual #2
Name: Typhus
Species: Altraloth
Alias: unknown
Desc: A 12' tall misshapen yugoloth looking much like a hunch-backed mezzoloth with a limp. Beings within 10' of him catch a terrible fever.
Operates: One of the greatest combat minds in the planes, Typhus unfortunately has a serious lack of wisdom. He commands a rag-tag mercenary army called the Infernal Front, composed of outcast baatezu, tanar'ri, tieflings, humans, slaadi, and a handful of rogue modrons. He is a rival to both the General of Gehenna and Bubonix, and plans to end the Blood War.
Source: Dragon Magazine Annual #2
Name: Taba
Species: Altraloth
Alias: Myriad
Desc: Taba is seen in any number of forms, most often female. She speaks all lower planar tongues with no accent and can radiate any evil alignment she chooses.
Operates: Taba's the ultimate master spy and thief, with the ability to take the shape of any fiend. With this ability, she is easily able to slip into and out of the depths of any of the Lower Planes without notice. Her approach to infiltration and espionage is practically foolproof. Rest assured, Taba will get you in. This altraloth never fails. Only the night hags know how to contact her.
Source: Dragon Magazine Annual #2
Name: Helekanalaith
Species: Arcanaloth
Alias: The Keeper of the Tower Arcane
Desc: He grinned ruefully and flicked the tip of one chocolate brown ear, a bit of cinder blown by the wind having struck it and smoldered. Larsdana looked at the younger Arcanaloth as hovered inches suspended over a lump of basalt, his scarlet and golden robes dangling below him, blowing softly in the wind.
Operates: Helekanalaith is in charge of the Tower of the Arcanaloths in Chamada, Gehenna's second volcano. The Tower is one of only two and a half great towers that the yugoloths control; it is one of the great sources of new mezzoloths and one of the most important sites in all 'lothdom. Helekanalaith is sadistic and ambitious. He imprisoned his mentor and former lover, Larsdana ap Nuet, in a soul gem.
Source: Planes of Conflict, Todd Stewart (Shemmy)
Name: Larsdana ap Nuet
Species: Arcanaloth
Alias: Architect of the Tower Arcane
Desc: A slender, almost anemically thin arcanaloth with a coat of light tan and grayish fur and a shoulder length mane of brilliant scarlet hair, blending to raven black at the tips. She smiled, baring fangs. She turned, her cobalt robes swirling in the air. She has violet eyes.
Operates: She built the Tower Arcane as a focal point for the arcanaloths' power. Helekanalaith was her apprentice, and her lover, and the cause of her ruin.
Source: Planes of Conflict, Todd Stewart (Shemmy)
Name: Ailanreanter
Species: Arcanaloth
Alias: unknown
Desc: unknown
Operates: Ailanreanter claims the yugoloths seek only good; it's just that their definition of "good" is different from most. He or she enjoys messing with peoples' heads.
Source: Planes of Conflict
Name: Alcain Fem'at
Species: Arcanaloth
Alias: unknown
Desc: Golden fur.
Operates: Alcain Fem'at is a contact of Enkillo the Sly, a tiefling expert on fiends. He claims that yugoloths are simply merchants, not the puppetmasters many claim they are. Alcain has a nycoloth assistant, and is probably a liar. But then, he knows you know that.
Source: Faces of Evil: The Fiends
Name: Incarus
Species: Yagnoloth
Desc: A large, horrible creature with two unequal arms, one man-sized and the other giant-sized. Incarus has scaly red skin, bulky muscles, and a horrid, skull-like head with wing-like ears.
Operates: Dwelling deep beneath Sigil's streets, Incarus is a scheming yugoloth who watches over and occasionally manipulates events in the City of Doors. He communicates with Ely Cromlich of the Doomguard through an artifact called the Nightmare Shaft. He hopes to conquer Sigil with an army of fiends.
Source: Faction War
Name: Nisviim
Species: Arcanaloth
Alias: The Oinoloths' Right Hand
Desc: Jackal-headed
Operates: Nisviim was bound by his true name to the service of Anthraxus long ago, becoming the altraloth's most trusted servant and ultimately the seneschal of the Wasting Tower. When Anthraxus abandoned his throne in Khin-Oin, he took no servants with him, not even Nisviim. As a result, the arcanaloth continues in the role Anthraxus chose for him, serving Mydianchlarus as he once served his predecessor. However, Nisviim is not bound to Mydianchlarus as he is to Anthraxus, so his loyalty is more to Khin-Oin itself than to the Oinoloth. Nisviim also fears Anthraxus' return, and thus will do nothing against his former lord's interest.
Source: Paul Kemp (converted to the Great Wheel cosmology by Rip)
Name: Daerith
Species: Nycaloth
Alias: unknown
Desc: unknown
Operates: Tried to enter the palace of Malsheem unannounced; was torn apart by pit fiends. According to the rules in force at the time, Daerith should have eventually regenerated in Hades or Gehenna.
Source: Dragon #76 (Ed Greenwood)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
In addition to the above list:
Inthracis - Ultroloth, homage/pastiche of Anthraxus
Source: War of the Spider Queen novels
Kexxon - unknown yugoloth, syncretic combination of the Oinoloth and General of Gehenna. Otherwise undescribed and undetailed.
Source: War of the Spider Queen novels
Yrkhetep - arcanaloth, vassal of Anthraxus
Source: 1e FR module I14 Swords of the Iron Legion
Inajira - arcanaloth - Known as "The Pariah Fiend" and "He-Who-Deceives".
Source: Van Richten's Monster Hunter's Compendium 3, Ravenloft Gazetteer Volume 1, and a module which escapes me at the moment.
Inimigle the Yagnoloth
Source: Dungeon 55 - 'Umbra'
Kraal the Mezzoloth
Source: Dungeon 55 - Umbra
Xell Dog-Ears
Nycaloth
Captain of the Brigade of Darkness (reports directly to the General of Gehenna)
Hellbound: The Dark of the War, page 28
Ferelm Cuer
Nycaloth
Discontented Blood War scout
Hellbound: The Dark of the War, page 29
Crassag
Nycaloth
Part of a living wall
Hellbound: War Games, 38
Stammering Azarin
Nycaloth
Blood War recruiter
Hellbound: The Chant of the War, 26
The Dreamer
Baernaloth
The member of The Demented who occupied Larsdana Ap Neut, using her as a sort of metaphysical host, infecting her mind, and in that capacity functioning as a sort of sentient virus who gave wisdom, wanted or unwanted, to its carrier.
Knowledge Arcana #5: 'The Dreamer and the Fiend'
Felthis ap Jerran - risen ultroloth and Philosopher King of the gatetown of Ecstasy
Source: Dragon #351
Por Ell
Ultroloth
'Loaned' a pair of Mezzoloths to the Erinyes Kasmine to guard her lair in Gehenna during the duration of her self-imposed exile from Baator
Dungeon #95, 'The Jackal's Redemption'
Sharlocke - advanced arcanaloth (has some Sorc levels)
Source: Dungeon 144
Vilinathraxes - arcanaloth
Source: The Great Modron March, page 89
Baernaloths (not including Apomps the Triple Aspected)
Daru Ib Shamiq - 2e 'Hellbound: The Blood War'
Unnamed members of The Demented - 2e 'Planes of Conflict'
Harishek Ap Thulkesh the Blind Clockmaker - Dragon #353
Species:Arcanaloth
Desc: Ivory-robed, "his words and actions obviously wrong if the party uses discernment." 18th-level spellcaster. Eight mezzoloth servants disguised as paladins. Allied with Iggwilv.
Source: Isle of the Ape, p. 44.
Name: Tul-oc-luc
Species:Arcanaloth
Desc: Ivory-robed, "his words and actions obviously wrong if the party uses discernment." 18th-level spellcaster. Eight mezzoloth servants disguised as paladins. Allied with Iggwilv.
Source: Isle of the Ape, p. 44.
Nice catch on that one.
And that reminds me, Iggwilv had a number of arcanaloth apprentices in the Savage Tide AP.
The Dreamer
Baernaloth
The member of The Demented who occupied Larsdana Ap Neut, using her as a sort of metaphysical host, infecting her mind, and in that capacity functioning as a sort of sentient virus who gave wisdom, wanted or unwanted, to its carrier.
Knowledge Arcana #5: 'The Dreamer and the Fiend'
Hmm, I wonder if this Dreamer is the same as your Dream Reaver? Or are they two seperate members of the Demented?
Malkizid is a devil.
According to Champioins of Ruin he is both a Exiled Archdevil and Yugoloth lord. He makes his home in the Bloodrift with a small following of Devils and other yugoloths after he miffed Asmodeous (he's got to stop stirring stuff up with his betters) and was cast from the Nine Hells. As far as I know that is still all cannon even if he has been sucked into a planar rift of sorts.
Hmm, I wonder if this Dreamer is the same as your Dream Reaver? Or are they two seperate members of the Demented?
The same.
According to Champioins of Ruin he is both a Exiled Archdevil and Yugoloth lord. He makes his home in the Bloodrift with a small following of Devils and other yugoloths after he miffed Asmodeous (he's got to stop stirring stuff up with his betters) and was cast from the Nine Hells. As far as I know that is still all cannon even if he has been sucked into a planar rift of sorts.
Hmm... well, Malkizid is awesome, it seems...
I always liked him as my BBEG running Elven themed games. Maybe I'll start a new thread to see if someone wants to stat him (and other?) out... or could it be done here, LK?
Is this an texted info only?
According to Champioins of Ruin he is both a Exiled Archdevil and Yugoloth lord. He makes his home in the Bloodrift with a small following of Devils and other yugoloths after he miffed Asmodeous (he's got to stop stirring stuff up with his betters) and was cast from the Nine Hells. As far as I know that is still all cannon even if he has been sucked into a planar rift of sorts.
Again, the book may state as such, but it flies in the face of all the lore on yugoloth society. They don't accept non-'loths. They missed an opportunity to (for instance) explain themselves by having Malkazid be a yugoloth lord in an entirely self-claimed manner, have him be the figurehead or unwitting puppet of a group of ultroloths or even a pet project for a baernaloth seeking to humble its children, etc.
Claiming Malkazid as a yugoloth lord remains nonsensical despite showing up in a 3.x book. Poor design.
Poor design or not it's stated lore and that is what we at Zemit&Co promise our loyal readers...
Still leaves the fact that you've got three different bodies of canon, all of which are mutually exclusive in many ways.
-And, if I am recalling correctly, didn't Shemeska make an appearance in the novel Tymora's Luck?
-Shemmy, of all of those, which ones have definite mentions in Forgotten Realms specific material. I like to connect everything as well, via Planescape, but some people are weird and picky like that, and start the badgering about since it's not mentioned in a Forgotten Realms book, it doesn't count (even though everything is/was connected at the time, but...).
-And, if I am recalling correctly, didn't Shemeska make an appearance in the novel Tymora's Luck?
The novel had a metric ton or so of crossover material, naturally, given its pre-retcon cosmology at the time. However I don't think that my board namesake was involved. There might have been a mention, but I don't recall seeing it.
Curse of the Azure Bonds refers to Tyranthraxus as a "daemon," which is as far as I know the only direct statement giving him a race.
Daemon was the first edition name for Yugoloth so I'd say it's work.
Still leaves the fact that you've got three different bodies of canon, all of which are mutually exclusive in many ways.
I'm not following. Are you saying that if it doesn't crossrefrence every known lore, or just contradicts with to many, then it has no place to be mentioned? It's still an idea to be toyed with even if it has shadows thrown on it. If we thru out all canon lore because it didn't "Mesh" with all the other canon lore, with the Forgotten Realms huge library, we'd have a very small book of Cliff Notes that would acount the History of Faerun.
If we thru out all canon lore because it didn't "Mesh" with all the other canon lore, with the Forgotten Realms huge library, we'd have a very small book of Cliff Notes that would acount the History of Faerun.
-Most canon information doesn't clash with other information. That's why, when things do, they get noticed, and people get "angry" about it- it doesn't happen all that often.
...we'd have a very small book of Cliff Notes that would acount the History of Faerun.
We already have it. It is called the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide. :P
We already have it. It is called the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide. :P
Edit: I take that back...
Sorry, but I happen to enjoy having the ability to make the Realms my own...
Gah, nevermind...
I'll be starting a thread for 4e Demons, Devils and Yugoloths. Seeing as some who post in these ones feel it is stupid to include anything 4e, I suggest LK add (3.x) in the titles so as not to confuse anyone looking for current lore.
I'll be starting a thread for 4e Demons, Devils and Yugoloths. Seeing as some who post in these ones feel it is stupid to include anything 4e, I suggest LK add (3.x) in the titles so as not to confuse anyone looking for current lore.
-Of course, I never said that, so, yeah.
-Of course, I never said that, so, yeah.
Well, will you be including 4e information, then?
You didn't say you would, either, even when a few other posters were snide about something being a '4e source'.
I don't care what you do, just let me know if I should make something friendly to the current edition so as to avoid the garbage.
Edit: but yeah, if you choose to use 3.w/e only, it would be best to change your titles accordingly.
Edit: but yeah, if you choose to use 3.w/e only, it would be best to change your titles accordingly.
That said, a good chunk of the material is from 2e actually, given that it's the edition that produced the largest amount of planar material. The vast majority of its fiendish content was subsequently touched upon in the late 3.x Fiendish Codex I and II.
4e hasn't (yet at least) gone into any level of detail approaching those sources. It might yet, or it might not, though much of what it has produced so far is strikingly at odds with prior material (retcons to make FR material mirror 4e default flavor, etc).
Thank you for editing out calling some of us stupid.
I said this where?
That said, a good chunk of the material is from 2e actually, given that it's the edition that produced the largest amount of planar material. The vast majority of its fiendish content was subsequently touched upon in the late 3.x Fiendish Codex I and II.
I'm aware of the many, many sources of lore, thank you.
4e hasn't (yet at least) gone into any level of detail approaching those sources. It might yet, or it might not, though much of what it has produced so far is strikingly at odds with prior material (retcons to make FR material mirror 4e default flavor, etc).
Which is my point, thanks for noticing. Some of you believe that 4e goes against 'real' canon and is therefore moot.
If this is the case, maybe it is best to have a section for 4e lore on the subject and avoid the pointless arguments, hmm?
-Most canon information doesn't clash with other information. That's why, when things do, they get noticed, and people get "angry" about it- it doesn't happen all that often.
I think lots of people would agree with me when I say 4e is just one big contradiction... :P
But seeing as we are still including it I don't see why we can't include this one as well.
Malkizid ruled the Pits of the Yugoloths in the Barrens of Doom & Despair. Following the Spellplague, Bane consolidated his power over this plane and renamed it Banehold. Presumably Malkizid and his faction of yugoloths still reside there. Most of the gods that lived in the Barrens still reside in Banehold, however, Talona was ousted and now inhabits a new plane called the Towers of Night.
What happened to the Blood Rift yugoloths is a mystery. It could be that when Asmodeus hurled the Abyss into the elemental chaos, he may have cast the Blood Rift down there as well. It could explain why there are yugoloths in FR's Abyss (even though they are called demons in 4e).
However, it is not entirely clear if the Blood Rift survived the Spellplague long enough for Asmodeus to cast it into the Elemental Chaos. We are told at the end of the Grand History of the Realms that in the wake of the explosion of Dweomerheart (Mystra's plane) that "Many planes are shifted or destroyed as well. Only greater deities prove strong enough to maintain their realms against the resultant chaos." The Blood Rift had no greater god to protect it. In fact, no gods at all are known to have lived there. It might therefore have well been destroyed in the absence of divine protection.
However, it is conceivable the Blood Rift survived as the Towers of Night. We don't know how this new plane came to be. Perhaps Shar protected the Blood Rift and relocated there following the Spellplague. We know there is a hole in the Shadowfell where her domain was formerly located, Shar physically (or metaphysically) uprooted her divine realm and translocated it to the Astral Sea. She could have planted it down on the Blood Rift.
A possible motivation for Shar to protect the Blood Rift might be a contractual obligation to protect the yugoloths, or at least come to their aid when the Blood Rift was threatened with destruction. It may be that the yugoloths had bound Shar to an ancient contract in exchange for their services as mercenaries in the War of Light and Darkness between Selûne and Shar. This contract probably included the right to establish a planar territory in the Realms cosmology and may have secured Shar's assistance in the creation and maintenance of their realm. I suppose that even if the Blood Rift was actually destroyed in the Spellplague, it is still conceivable that due to such a contract, Shar could have intervened to save Mount Calaas and relocated it to the Towers of Night, so the yugoloths of Mount Calaas could have a home in the Towers of Night either way if either explanation is true.
Now, Talona was either kicked out of or fled from the Barrens of Doom & Despair and currently abides in the Towers of Night. Alternatively, the Spellplague may have broken the bonds which imprisoned her in the Barrens, freeing her to establish her domain elsewhere. There is some evidence that Talona was the first deity to inhabit the Barrens and that it may have been established as a prison for her by the gods in the wake of the War of Light and Darkness which spawned her. Whatever the explanation for her leaving, Talona may have ripped her domain from the Barrens to form a plane in its own right, which became the core for the Towers of Night. Or she could have transported her dominion to the Blood Rift (either before or after Shar moved there) which later came to be called the Towers of Night.
Zehir also resides in the Towers of Night. We know that Zehir is an interloper deity, so maybe he brought the plane of the Towers of Night with him from his previous dimension, or perhaps he formed it when he arrived in the cosmos.
Sseth lives in the Towers of Night, which suggests another possibility. Sseth formerly lived in his realm of the Viper Pit in the 74th layer of the Abyss. He was imprisoned there by Set for centuries, who impersonated Sseth and stole his worshiper base. But following the disappearance of the Mulhorandi pantheon, Sseth seems to have risen from his somnolence and reclaimed his portfolio with a vengeance. It may be that Sseth ripped his layer from the Abyss (similar to how Lolth did hers) to establish it as a separate plane in its own right. I could see perhaps Shar aiding him in this so as to have a place to put her own divine realm, and to have him as a vassal.
Lots of intriguing possibilities for how the Towers of Night came to be, but whether the plane was built upon the former territory of the Blood Rift, or whether the yugoloths fled there after the Spellplague is complete conjecture.
So in conclusion, the yugoloths of the Barrens (now called Banehold) should still live there. But we don't really know what happened to the yugoloths of Mount Calaas in the Blood Rift. The Blood Rift could have been:
1) destroyed in the Spellplague
2) hurled into the Elemental Chaos by Asmodeus
3) become transformed into the Towers of Night after several deities took it as their home base following the Spellplague.
It could explain why there are yugoloths in FR's Abyss (even though they are called demons in 4e).
Adding more problems though is the fact that 4e core (and by extension 4e FR) retconned the history and very identity of the yugoloths. Arcanaloths are now ravaasta in 4e and their history has them as being Abyssal in origin, and linked to Rakshasa. 4e core dismantled the yugoloths as being a distinct race, and has them scattered about in various bits and pieces. Since 4e core imposes itself so much on FR, we've got a paradox as a result. Ultimately the new 4e core material needs to be ignored in order to keep with the body of lore that FR has always operated under, or the 1e/2e/3e/FR lore has to be ignored to keep with the 4e default.
It was a very poor design decision IMO to so forcibly impose the 4e default on distinct, pre-existing campaign settings.
It was a very poor design decision IMO to so forcibly impose the 4e default on distinct, pre-existing campaign settings.
I'm sorry, perhaps my vision is flawed, but I never saw what you're implying here. Could you show me where it says FR has to conform to the current core without following previous lore (and common sense)?
Where, exactly, is this supposed 'forcibly imposed' core that is against canon?
Let me first reaffirm my bona fides as a Planescape loyalist who prefers the classic Great Wheel cosmology. With that out of the way, my reading of the totality of the material is that:
1. The word "demon" is applied by sages in the Realms to a variety of races, including the tanar'ri, obyriths, loumaras, and yugoloths.
2. Yugoloths are creations of primal "demons" known as baernaloths who also created or corrupted the obyriths, beings of primal Chaos who warred with the forces of Order in an event remembered in myth as the war between the gods and primordials. Baernaloths and obyriths are both lumped together in modern religious texts with draedens, and various elemental beings who also took part in the war as the "primordials," a blanket term used by primes with little intrinsic meaning. In truth, this war long predated the birth of "gods" as we know them today. Perhaps yugoloths and obyriths are both "demons" in the sense they share a common origin as baernaloth creations, as opposed to the devils who have a separate origin.
3. While perhaps initially born in a common plane of Chaos and Evil, the yugoloths soon created a separate plane or planes, known to Faerunian sages as the Blood Rift, from which they could more easily deal with devils and demons alike. Over the years, less-Clueless sages surely distinguished clearly between yugoloths and those demons who remained in the primal chaotic evil that eventually formed the Abyss.
4. After having been given many companies of mezzoloths from some ancient, unrevealed deal with the yugoloths, the baatezu reshape them over the eons into gelugons.
5. When the Abyss slid into the Elemental Planes (perhaps partly as a result of Asmodeus's ascension, though I think it's safe to say that such a momentous event had other forces at work - it'd certainly be more interesting if there was), the attractive force of its many portals and connections dragged the "Blood Rift" along with it; all of these planes shattered, creating an indistinguishable Elemental Chaos, with the Blood Rift hard to distinguish from the Abyssal layers. Most prime sages at this point stopped bothering to distinguish between the many fiendish races found there.
6. The primary dealmakers of the 'loths, the arcanaloths, left the remnants of the Blood Rift to spread throughout the planes. Without the connection to their Towers and the lower yugoloth castes, however, only sexual reproduction is left to them. While arcanaloths are capable of breeding more of their kind sexually, over many generations without being renewed by the substance of their home plane they slowly evolve into the slightly different raavasta race. This has, in fact, happened before, as in eons past a group of secessionist arcanaloths in Acheron evolved into the rakshasas. Other arcanaloths may remain behind in the Elemental Chaos, helping to contract out companies of mezzoloths to the various Abyssal lords.
Given the 4th edition conflation of yugoloths and demons, I think the only reasonable scenario, other than rank ignorance on the part of the Clueless, is that the majority of the yugoloth race dwells on the same plane as the tanar'ri. Given the elemental creature type that 4e mezzoloths have, I don't think we can assume their plane survived as part of the Astral Sea.
7. All other 1e-2e yugoloth castes can be assumed to still exist, lurking in the shadows and manipulating things behind the scenes from the Abyss, still controlling the Tower Arcane, Khin-Oin, and Tower of Incarnate Pain in the depths of the Elemental Chaos. The fact that they haven't been mentioned yet in 4e doesn't preclude this.
8. The Towers of Night would be the 4th edition version of the Palace of Loss, Shar's 2nd edition realm in Niflheim. She had a realm in the Plane of Shadow as well, but this was separate. If you like, you can assume it was an obscure part of the Barrens of Doom and Despair that became separated when Bane created his new plane of Banehold. This seems substantially more likely to me than Shar taking over the yugoloth plane.
The only problems I would have with this sequence of events are:
1. I'd prefer the baernaloths to originate on a plane of pure evil, rather than Chaos and Evil. However, with the planes as ill-defined as they were in the early epochs of the multiverse, it doesn't much matter. The point is that it's a corrupted, malignant region of the Outer Planes/Astral Sea, probably initially purely chaotic until parts were ordered by the Ancient Brethren. This ordering created a pushback, an equal and opposite force, dominated by the obyriths. Pure evil in the form of the yugoloths was initially content to hang back in the shadows, manipulating both sides of the war. As time went by, it became easier to distinguish between the neutral evil planes and the chaotic evil planes, but in the beginning the only impressions are a great malignancy opposing the powers of creation. As such, I'm relatively satisfied with the above version of history.
2. Of course, I'd prefer to avoid the whole Abyss-sliding-into-the-Inner Planes scenario altogether. But if we assumed it happened (and such planar cataclysms aren't impossible; I'd just hope to come up with a more interesting explanation than "Asmodeus chucked it"), I think it must have happened like that.
There was no reason for any fiends to exist in those early days of happy equilibrium between Selûne and Shar at the dawn of the universe. Rather, I believe that demons, devils, yugoloths and other fiends were interlopers, brought by Shar as mercenaries from the Great Wheel to aid her in prosecuting Shar's war against her sister Selûne and daughter Chauntea/Jannath for creation of the dark-banishing sun.
To that extent, everything you said about the origins of fiends can be true for the core cosmology. Then the fiends came to the Realms cosmology and stayed. This may have happened around 70,000 years ago based on a figure supplied by Ed Greenwood as to a date that Realms sages tend to believe that Toril was created. Presumably the major fiend lords sent over avatars of themselves to lead their armies, which explains why all the major fiend lords are represented in the Realms.
I halfway suspect that the Abyss and Baator sent over avatars of the whole planes, including avatar copies of their entire populations. I don't know to what extent it is possible for a plane to have an avatar, but it strikes me as very possible that the 2 planes actually interloped as avatars rather than being reconstructed as facsimiles by the fiends who stuck around after the War of Light & Darkness.
It is interesting to note that the Yugoloths did not bring over their plane or reconstruct it as such. Rather the Yugoloths took up residence initially in the Barrens of Doom & Despair, with Talona. Later it appears that the part of the Barrens containing Mount Calaas split off from the Barrens--or was ejected by the gods who lived in the Barrens. The Players Guide to Faerûn says that "The geographical similarity of Blood Rift to certain areas of the Barrens of Doom and Despair has led some to suggest that it was once a part of that plane, but was split off when the divine rulers of the Barrens tired of having a fiendish war raging at the gates of their realms."
I think it interesting that the avatars sent by the Yugoloth lords seemed to diverge and drift the most from their Great Wheel counterparts, even to the point that their names are spelled and pronounced differently. Inthracis is/was an avatar of Anthraxus, Bubonis = Bubonix, Calaas=Khalas. They are/were led by Kexxon, who is referred to as the Oinoloth. I don't think Kexxon is an avatar of Mydianchlarus, possibly he is an avatar of an even older oinoloth, one that preceeded Anthraxus.
Otherwise, pretty much everything Rip says works for me. It explains how the demons set up shop in the Astral Sea. Even though in the core cosmology the Abyss formed in the Elemental Chaos, when the demons were brought into Realmspace by Shar they either formed or brought their version of the Abyss and located it in the Astral Sea, where it stayed--up to the point that Asmodeus cast it down into the Elemental Chaos post-Spellplague.
The Towers of Night, though are still a mystery. Rip is right that the Palace of Loss, was Shar's realm. But the 4e FRCG states that there is a hole in the Shadowfell where her palace used to be, and that she relocated it to the Astral Sea. Whether she dropped it down on an existing plane (perhaps the ruins of the Blood Rift, or Talona's realm excised from the Barrens, or Zehir's plane, or the 74th layer of the Abyss ripped-free by Sseth) or whether the Palace of Loss became a plane in its own right serving as a core for other realms to aggregate around, that is a question yet to be answered.
As for rakshasas and ravaastas, there is new information in the Players Handbook 2 linking rakshasa origins to devas. I think there could be some further clues there that need some pondering in order to suss out the real story behind the links between rakshasas, yugoloths and ravaastas.
To that extent, everything you said about the origins of fiends can be true for the core cosmology.
I'd argue that the 4e core cosmology isn't relevant here. There's nothing that links it to the Forgotten Realms, and linking the two creates continuity problems, since the Forgotten Realms has historically been based on the assumptions of previous editions, while the 4e core cosmology creates entirely new assumptions with no regard for the past. This is fine, assuming 4e "core" is its own, independent thing, but if you try to tie it to a setting with a longer continuity, as the Realms has, you'll end up with contradictions in far more areas than yugoloths.
Since it's been said that the 3e-4e change in FR is not a reboot or a retcon, we ought not to try to hand-wave these contradictions away, saying "it's always been this way." Rather, I think we should accept that the 4e cosmology has no causal relationship with the Forgotten Realms setting. That's not to say they can never, never interact, only that the fiends of Toril did not originate in the 4th edition World Axis (they still might have originated in the Great Wheel). If this is true, there's no reason to attempt to reconcile the differing 3e and 4e origin stories at all, and much of what I said above should be ignored.
Kexxon is probably the General of Gehenna.
Otherwise, pretty much everything Rip says works for me. It explains how the demons set up shop in the Astral Sea. Even though in the core cosmology the Abyss formed in the Elemental Chaos, when the demons were brought into Realmspace by Shar they either formed or brought their version of the Abyss and located it in the Astral Sea, where it stayed--up to the point that Asmodeus cast it down into the Elemental Chaos post-Spellplague.
If we assume the 3e-4e Realms cosmology is the only one that's ever been, the demons might still be corrupted primordials, as in 4e core; initially neutral, they became corrupted by Shar's evil. At some point (probably at the time the elemental rulers were creating the elemental planes from what was once the Elemental Chaos) they relocated the Abyss from the Elemental Chaos to the Astral Sea in order to better combat their foes there. The yugoloths might have aided them in this, drawing the Abyss into the Astral Sea with the attractive force of their new Blood Rift plane.
As for rakshasas and ravaastas, there is new information in the Players Handbook 2 linking rakshasa origins to devas. I think there could be some further clues there that need some pondering in order to suss out the real story behind the links between rakshasas, yugoloths and ravaastas.
The link between arcanaloths and raavastas seems pretty straightforward. The deva-rakshasa-arcanaloth connection is possibly more complicated. Perhaps certain 'loth-descended rakshasas were raised up by the gods of good and reincarnated as devas in order to give them a chance at atonement.
If we assume the 3e-4e Realms cosmology is the only one that's ever been
I don't assume that at all. The FR cosmology has long been tied to other worlds with travel back and forth. I feel strongly that the fiends of the FR cosmology are interlopers, presumably from the Great Wheel (or another universe, perhaps the new core cosmology) brought in by Shar during the War of Light & Darkness. And I like to think that Greyhawk, Krynn, Athas, and the other D&D worlds are still out there. In fact, the existence of FR's timeline as set forth in the Grand History of the Realms must preserve the existence of these other worlds in current canon. So I don't think we have to assume that the FR cosmology is the only one that's ever existed.
However, for the fun of discussing it, I can accept your premise "if we assume..."
the demons might still be corrupted primordials, as in 4e core; initially neutral, they became corrupted by Shar's evil. At some point (probably at the time the elemental rulers were creating the elemental planes from what was once the Elemental Chaos) they relocated the Abyss from the Elemental Chaos to the Astral Sea in order to better combat their foes there. The yugoloths might have aided them in this, drawing the Abyss into the Astral Sea with the attractive force of their new Blood Rift plane.
Solid reasoning. I could see it. ;) I still like the idea that Shar, while sulking in her Palace of Loss in the Shadow Plane (following Selûne's creation of the Sun), was corrupted to evil by the tutoring of a Baernaloth, or maybe Kexxon, who was attracted to her from across deepest Shadow by the intensity of her pain. I think someone had to corrupt Shar first before she was fit to corrupt anyone else.
The deva-rakshasa-arcanaloth connection is possibly more complicated. Perhaps certain 'loth-descended rakshasas were raised up by the gods of good and reincarnated as devas in order to give them a chance at atonement.
I agree that connection seems very complicated. Your solution is a possibility. I think the answer needs some more pondering.
I don't assume that at all.
I know you don't. But some people do. This is a thought experiment. Personally, I don't assume the Forgotten Realms cosmology exists at all, much less exists alone in the multiverse.
"Other worlds," however, doesn't necessarily mean other cosmologies. Worlds like Earth, Abeir, and even Oerth might well share the same cosmology as Toril.
The myth of the primordials complicates the Selune and Shar creation myth; there was never a time in history when only the "happy equilibrium" of Selune and Shar existed; the primordials were always there, always hungry and wrathful. They could easily have spawned fiends.
(or another universe, perhaps the new core cosmology)
No. If they were from there, they would have always been 4th edition fiends. As things are, they only became 4th edition fiends after the Spellplague.
I know you don't. But some people do. This is a thought experiment.
Fair enough. ;) I am all for thought experiments.
Personally, I don't assume the Forgotten Realms cosmology exists at all, much less exists alone in the multiverse.
Well, I strongly support people using whatever cosmology they like. I had a lot of fun gaming in the Great Wheel back in the day, and have a great affection for it, even though I use the FR cosmology now for my own FR campaign. I harbor no ill feelings for the Wheel. But my only goal is to determine what is canon for FR and then try to harmonize it with prior lore. The thought experiment for me is to assume every published word is true, and then figure out how that could possibly work given prior established lore. Some might call that a fool's errand. But I enjoy trying to figure it all out.
"Other worlds," however, doesn't necessarily mean other cosmologies. Worlds like Earth, Abeir, and even Oerth might well share the same cosmology as Toril.
I certainly think they share the same multiverse. But I think it is also fairly well established though that the D&D multiverse contains multiple cosmologies. Even in 4e literature there have been several references to how the FR cosmology is separate from the core cosmology. I recall an article in Dragon about Bane that went to great pains to state the Bane of the core pantheon is not the same god as the Bane of the FR pantheon. I think I also remember a reference somewhere that the dominions of the Astral Sea cluster like the islands of an archipelago, and that if you sail far, far beyond them you might come to other such archipelagos that constitute the dominions of other cosmologies of other worlds. Also, the 4e Manual of the Planes makes reference to the Great Wheel as an alternate cosmology, so I would like to think it is still around for established worlds like Greyhawk and Athas. Plus, the FRCG says on p. 42 that "Other gods were created from the residue of the deific battles or summoned from other dimensions to aid in the fight against the primordials and their monstrous servants." To that extent I think we are on safe ground to assume there are alternate cosmologies within the 4e D&D multiverse.
The myth of the primordials complicates the Selune and Shar creation myth; there was never a time in history when only the "happy equilibrium" of Selune and Shar existed; the primordials were always there, always hungry and wrathful. They could easily have spawned fiends.
I agree it complicates things, but not excessively. There was perhaps a brief peaceful time, when the sisters existed in harmony before the primordials and gods became aware of each other. Then afterwards, the sisters fought the primordials together. Presumably as allies.
Then Dendar ate the first sun, nearly extinguishing all life on Toril. Eventually, with the aid of Ubtao and other gods. Though not specifically mentioned I assume the War of Light & Darkness erupted after the primordials were quelled. When Selûne sought to reignite the sun, cut from the belly of Dendar, or perhaps forge a new sun using fire drawn from the Plane of Fire/Elemental Chaos. We know the sun came back somehow, so the War of Light & Darkness probably happened then. Selûne and Shar had their falling out after defeating the primordials together.
No. If they were from there, they would have always been 4th edition fiends. As things are, they only became 4th edition fiends after the Spellplague.
Point taken. The fiends that interloped into the FR cosmology probably came from an old-school cosmology, I like to think it was from Greyhawk's Great Wheel.
Of course, now the fiends have 2 time frames when they could have arrived. Shar might have brought them in during the War of Light & Darkness. Or they could have arrived earlier, with the gods from other dimensions, recruited to fight against the primordials.
But that still affords the yugoloths, or the Baernaloths even, ample opportunity to have served as brokers during either of those two wars, to write contracts for fiendish mercenary services, facilitate introductions to evil gods of other dimensions and help negotiate with those gods to intervene on Shar's behalf. In fact, it seems logical that the 'loths might have arranged for Gruumsh to interlope at this juncture albeit incognito in the guise of Talos.
You mentioned above that the primordials could have created fiends. I cannot say definitively that they didn't. However, they didn't create the devils, even in core. Devils turn out to be fallen angels. The only question there is whether they were native angels that fell, or interloped as the devils we know, having already had their fall in another cosmology. I prefer the interloping theory, but I suppose you could go either way.
And as for Demons, their core origin doesn't work well in the FR cosmology. There was no Tharizdun. No seed of evil to form the abyss. No reason for the primordials to corrupt their own creations. While I can think of several work arounds for this, I prefer to believe the demons were brought in from outside. From a cosmology where they had already been corrupted. The Great Wheel, perhaps. That one sentence about gods from other dimensions in the FRCG p.42 establishes precedence to support the possibility that demons (and 'loths) are interlopers.
That said, as a thought experiment, I could imagine several scenarios for a native origin within the realms. Perhaps Shar snatched a sizeable chunk of the Elemental Chaos and brought it to the Astral Sea. Maybe Shar experimented on the denizens within, corrupting them to evil, creating demons and forming the Abyss. Or perhaps when Ubtao betrayed the primordials and sided with the gods, he might have established a divine realm in the Astral Sea, and brought with him legions of elemental beings to populate it. Perhaps Ubtao's realm was corrupted by Shar to form the Abyss. Or maybe Ghaunadaur was the corrupting influence, brought in from the Far Realms by the primordials to strike back at the traitor Ubtao to punish him and destroy his works. Or maybe it was the black diamond of the Queen of Air & Darkness that was used as the corrupting agent. I suppose there are lots of ways to go with this. ;)
But I think it is also fairly well established though that the D&D multiverse contains multiple cosmologies.
Perhaps. But not every world has to have a separate one. There's no indication that Abeir has a separate cosmology, for example. The other worlds in Realmspace probably share a cosmology with Toril (I know you've suggested they might not, but bear with me). There are a number of alternate cosmologies in the 3e Manual of the Planes that contain multiple material worlds.
Also, the 4e Manual of the Planes makes reference to the Great Wheel as an alternate cosmology, so I would like to think it is still around for established worlds like Greyhawk and Athas.
I'd like to think so too, but the designers have specifically said they intend to use the World Axis for everything. Using the Great Wheel for more than a sidebar in the MotP would mean they would have to change creature types, change the way items that target creatures with certain origins work, and other bothersome details from campaign to campaign, so they don't plan on doing that.
While the specific islands accessible in the Astral Sea might change from campaign to campaign (but, as above, not necessarily from world to world), everything else stays the same.
So, for example, Toril and Oerth might share the same Baator and the same Abyss, even if the Astral dominions relating to their specific pantheons are different (Hextorhold instead of Banehold, etc.) and their local manifestations of the Feywild and Shadowfell reflect different terrain features.
I'm not going to post the next two paragraphs that I wrote on the subject of primordials, devils, Tharizdun, Shar, and so on, since they're pretty much exactly what you said. That is to say, I agree with you on those points.
Perhaps. But not every world has to have a separate one. There's no indication that Abeir has a separate cosmology, for example. The other worlds in Realmspace probably share a cosmology with Toril (I know you've suggested they might not, but bear with me). There are a number of alternate cosmologies in the 3e Manual of the Planes that contain multiple material worlds.
No argument from me here. I agree that worlds can share cosmologies. I think it likely that Abeir does share the same cosmology as Toril (Rich Baker has suggested that he thinks it share the same Feywild, for example). And I think the other worlds of Realmspace probably share the same cosmology, although I cannot rule out the possibility that other cosmologies/planar configurations exist within Realmspace or that the other planets of Realmspace might have special dominions that link to only certain worlds or regions of those worlds. It is an unresolved question. But I essentially agree with you on this.
but the designers have specifically said they intend to use the World Axis for everything. Using the Great Wheel for more than a sidebar in the MotP would mean they would have to change creature types, change the way items that target creatures with certain origins work, and other bothersome details from campaign to campaign, so they don't plan on doing that.
True, however, since they don't seem to intend to revisit Greyhawk, no reason to believe that Greyhawk's cosmology has changed. It will be interesting to see how they adapt their new cosmology to Eberron. If they keep aspects of Eberron's old cosmology, instead of applying the core cosmology whole-cloth, then it might shed some light on the matter. I personally think it safe to believe that Greyhawk's cosmology is still the Great Wheel, until I see something more definitive published to the contrary.
So, for example, Toril and Oerth might share the same Baator and the same Abyss, even if the Astral dominions relating to their specific pantheons are different (Hextorhold instead of Banehold, etc.) and their local manifestations of the Feywild and Shadowfell reflect different terrain features.
That's one way to go. But I think it also possible that one could travel far across the Astral Sea or through Phlogiston, and arrive at a different cosmology, a different archipelago in the Astral Sea, that could contain another version of Baator and the Abyss, with similar or even different configurations. Just as Abeir is a twin of Toril, I think it possible that Baator and the Abyss or any plane, really, could have twins in other cosmoses. This could be due to parallel evolution or through deliberate cloning and transplanting.
Perhaps Baators spit off "hell seeds" that travel through phlogiston or across the Astral Sea to infest new cosmologies and grow into clones or "daughter" hells that look much like, if not the same as, the Baator that spun them off.
Or I think it within the realm of possibility that Baator and the Abyss could create avatars of themselves and interlope into new cosmologies either by pact with the gods of that world, or by invasion, or stealth, or what have you.
Then again, it might be the demons or devils that interlope to the new cosmology as colonists and then recreate their Hell or their Abyss because they want to feel at home and so they model their planar home on the old one they came from--out of nostalgia, or perhaps simply because they just have the one set of blueprints they keep reusing.
But that is not to rule out your suggestion that Baator and the Abyss might be the same plane that connects to different cosmologies. I accept that as a possibility as well.
as far as I remember 4e MotP from the bookstore Sigil is the only place that is shared
Wasn't Limbo the plane that connected the Tree and the Wheel
as far as I remember 4e MotP from the bookstore Sigil is the only place that is shared
Theoretically, any plane that a Deity resides at could be multi-spherical, as beings like Corellon, Lolth, Asmodeus, etc are all known in all known worlds...
at first I thought they're going to introduce the Deep Shadow of the Shadowfel and Faerie, places that aren't an echo of the World like the Deep Ethereal to connect all
yea, maybe I remember incorrectly, but the Core Corellon, Lolth and others are different (history, alignment ...) than FR Corellon and Lolth
at first I thought they're going to introduce the Deep Shadow of the Shadowfel and Faerie, places that aren't an echo of the World like the Deep Ethereal to connect all
Their fluff is different, true. But both are known as multi-spherical deities.
I think the most logical explanation for the discrepancy is that what we know of them is from a mortal perspective, with the added benefit of an outside view.
Another: They are who mortals need them to be for that given area.
Or it could be that they split themselves and act as uber-avatars in each sphere... but that would be a messy explanation.
yea, maybe I remember incorrectly, but the Core Corellon, Lolth and others are different (history, alignment ...) than FR Corellon and Lolth
at first I thought they're going to introduce the Deep Shadow of the Shadowfel and Faerie, places that aren't an echo of the World like the Deep Ethereal to connect all
Depends on what edition you play. In 1e and 2e, there was only one Lolth, one Corellon, etc. It was the same deity in each case that was worshipped on various different worlds, all within the same cosmology of the Great Wheel.
In 3e FR, it was declared that FR had its own cosmology and retroactively had never been part of the Great Wheel. Over time that fractured a bit, and you had a (perhaps necessary) insertion of links between the 3e Great Tree cosmology and the 1e/2e/3e Great Wheel cosmology (links to Sigil, etc). By a strict reading (and use) of the 3e FR cosmology, some of those shared gods from 3e core and 3e FR either were cosmological copies of one another with no shared history, or possibly the same god represented in two different cosmologies, allowed to do so by Ao, etc.
4e FR arguably disposes of the 3e Great Tree entirely and adopts a version of the 4e core cosmology. Some of the continuity issues already present in 3e have snowballed since some aspects of 4e FR are again presumed to have 'always been that way', and given its roots for two editions using a different cosmology, and then a brief stint using another one altogether, itself having 'always been that way', the situation is a bit muddled to say the least.
Best way to handle the situation? Use whichever cosmology you like best, whichever presents you as a DM or player with the most interesting hooks and options, and whichever fits the tone and theme of your games.
Their fluff is different, true. But both are known as multi-spherical deities.
Depends on how you're using the term 'multi-spherical'. Historically it's a deity worshipped on multiple worlds/planets within a common material plane, within a common cosmology they all share. Not necessarily to be conflated as a term for deities of similar nature and the same name present in two totally different cosmologies (ie Lolth in the Great Wheel versus the 3e FR Great Tree, or Lolth in 4e core versus 4e FR).
Depends on how you're using the term 'multi-spherical'. Historically it's a deity worshipped on multiple worlds/planets within a common material plane, within a common cosmology they all share. Not necessarily to be conflated as a term for deities of similar nature and the same name present in two totally different cosmologies (ie Lolth in the Great Wheel versus the 3e FR Great Tree, or Lolth in 4e core versus 4e FR).
See, I don't know if they are different primes. Regardless of that fact, they could still be one and the same, acting in different manners for different worlds, as need dictates.
Cosmologies have already been stated to be explanations for mortals trying to understand existence. They are, more or less, a lens to view from.
Is it known that they're different entities with the same names? Or are there discrepancies about that between editions?
See, I don't know if they are different primes. Regardless of that fact, they could still be one and the same, acting in different manners for different worlds, as need dictates.
Cosmologies have already been stated to be explanations for mortals trying to understand existence. They are, more or less, a lens to view from.
Is it known that they're different entities with the same names? Or are there discrepancies about that between editions?
-Different universes, all of which gets muddled because of the 2e to 3e cosmology change while sharing information, and the 3e to 4e cosmology change while sharing information.
-In 2e, everything was all connected on one Prime Material Plane. In 3e, everything became unconnected, but connected. In the "Forgotten Realms-verse, there is an Abeir-Toril in Realmspace, a Oearth in Grayspace, a Krynn in Krynnspace, and so on. In the Grayhawk-verse, there is a an Abeir-Toril in Realmspace, a Oearth in Grayspace, a Krynn in Krynnspace, and so on. In the Krynn-verse, there is a an Abeir-Toril in Realmspace, a Oearth in Grayspace, a Krynn in Krynnspace, and so on. The Realmspace in the Forgotten Realms-verse =/= the Realmspace in Grayspace, the Realmspace in Krynnspace, and so on. So, it's more of a Realmspace, Realmspace', Realmspace'', and so on situation.
-Which, looping back, makes the Corellon Larethian of Realmspace different from the Corellon Larethian of Realmspace', who is different from the Corellon Larethian of Realmspace'', and so on and so forth. Things would be that much easier sharing a unified cosmology a la Planescape, seriously...
Malkizid Abyss Champions of Ruin
OK, I know a couple of people already commented on this, but I tracked down all the sourcebooks I could find about him. Long story short, Malkizid is a baatezu who has been exiled from the Nine Hells and lives among yugoloths. 4E's elimination of them notwithstanding, yugoloths have previously served pretty much anybody strong enough and/or rich enough to control them.
I found three sources (from 3.5) about him :
Lost Empires of Faerun mentions him 3 times in its timeline on the Crown Wars:
"-30,000 DR--...The solar Malkizid is branded and thrown down into the Nine Hells." (pg 51)
"-10,900 DR--Malkizid, the fallen solar, becomes the secret patron of the Vyshaan lords." (pg 52)
"-9200 DR--...Malkizid abandons House Vyshaan and retreats to the infernal planes." (pg 52)
The Grand History of the Realms repeats the first line of the Lost Empires reference exactly (pg 8), and includes one more:
"1374 Year of Lightning Storms--Mirtul 13: Lady Sarya Dlardrageth, matron of House Dlardrageth, summons Malkizid, an exiled archdevil, to Myth Drannor." (emphasis added) (pg 155)
Lastly, Champtions of Ruin has the most detailed information I've been able to locate:
"...Malkizid was branded for his treachery and cast down into the Hells. He arose as a devil prince, and quickly carved out his own kingdom.
However, Malkizid earned the disfavor of Asmodeus thousands of years ago and was exiled from the Nine Hells...The Branded King settled for building his infernal realm in the nameless pits of the yugoloths." (pg 155)
Champions of Ruin also includes a stat sheet for Malkizid, which clearly lists his type and subtype as "Outsider (Baatezu)" (also pg 155).