No, i'm not saying they should add more healing to make it like 4e D&D, or get rid of the oh-so-fun randomized setup (yeti/rat-swarm anyone?).
I'm talking about the fact that its easy to fall unconscious, easy to stabilize, but darn near impossible to get back into a fight. The 4e D&D "dead at negative-bloodied" is TERRIBLE for gammaworld, simply because while it means you might hold on to your character for a little longer, IF the rest of the group is victorious, you can end up sitting entire fights out.
add that issue to the fact that you can be stuck with 15 hp at level 1 (average of about 22) and you can run into some real playtime problems.
our group was running the adventure that came in the book. we got to the second fight and the elite brute full-attacked one character, dealt 31 damage, and that character went from full (30 hp....pretty much max unless you roll up double CON archetypes) to -1 unconscious and dying. Well, two rounds later, someone went over and stabilized that character with a science check. 5 rounds later (about 75 minutes real-time from start to finish) the fight ended and we took a short rest.
Thats right, an hour and fifteen minutes of doing....nothing. The Next session we played, we went on to the third encounter, i got knocked unconscious in one round (round 2 of the fight) and just left to play some Yahoo Chess for a while. Luckily that combat TPK'd the party and only took about 40 minutes.
Going unconscious with little to no targetable healingis a big problem in the system. Science didn't replace the Heal skill, instead it offers the ability to atabilize someone dying....a big drawback with no healing, because now they can't even get a CHANCE to pop up. It can no longer grant saves or second winds either.
I've been pushing for our group to start saying "dead at 0 hp," but so far no success.
What experience with this issue have other players had? if there are any devs or similar who play gammaworld and read this forum, what do you think?
"If you are helpless, another player can spend a standard action to allow you to use your healing surge."
No check, just up and at 'em.
If your surge is used up you'll have 1 HP. Hilarity ensues!
I've also distributed tokens that work as a (player's choice of) action point OR recharge an encounter power OR remove one death strike. Distributed at DM's discretion.
After you incapacitate, the first turn that you roll death saves, assuming you don't roll nat 20, spawn a spectral form of yourself in an adjacent square. spectral form takes its turn immediately after yours, has defenses of 15+lvl, 10hp, insubstantial, weakened, and dazed.
The turn that spectral form spawns it cannot take actions. Any other turns it is treated as dazed and take only one action. Spectral form cannot heal your incapped self. Damage is halved due to weakened, but at least can assist with flanking. If at any point you are healed and become conscious again, spectral form disappears.
If spectral form drops to 10hp or lower, it disappears but will re-spawn when you take your next death save.
If you fail 3 saves and die, spectral form immediately dissipates and you should make a new character; should take no more than 1 round and DM should roll you right into the initiative immediately.
imo, within reason the DM should keep his players in the game. try this out, modify it as I just grabbed numbers out of air. keep incapping as the penalty that it is, but keep it fun.
I've been pushing for our group to start saying "dead at 0 hp," but so far no success.
What experience with this issue have other players had? if there are any devs or similar who play gammaworld and read this forum, what do you think?
Wait: You've seriously been pushing for death as the solution for unconciousness?
In most cases a player probably hasn't used second wind yet, so a standard action from somebody else will get them back on their feet (per the rule altersaddle mentions). If they have already used their wind and the battle isn't practically over, the GM can always let the player control one of the enemies for the duration to pass the time constructively: I've aways found players can be particularly vicious and creative with what would otherwise be somewhat bland monsters, when given that option.
Wait: You've seriously been pushing for death as the solution for unconciousness?
honestly....yes. Character creation is one of the most hilariously fun aspects of the game (seems to be that way for most of the people we play with). I'd rather be dead and have a chance to jump back in with a totally new character, then sit out a combat because monsters got lucky damage rolls and the setting has no real healing.
I wasn't aware of the rule that alersaddle mentioned. I'd imagine the DM wasn't aware either. We're playing a 5 person game (6 total people) out of a single book, so when the DM is running monsters, it basically puts the book off-limits. I'm thinking of getting a hold of a book to have a second reference. Also, learning about that standard action -> surge thing will help a good amount, and has the potential to totally invalidate my whine :-p
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
There's a little tidbit in the rulebook that I'm going to use for the next session - don't remember the exact text, but it's something like:
"If you are helpless, another player can spend a standard action to allow you to use your healing surge."
No check, just up and at 'em.
If your surge is used up you'll have 1 HP. Hilarity ensues!
I've also distributed tokens that work as a (player's choice of) action point OR recharge an encounter power OR remove one death strike. Distributed at DM's discretion.
Hmmm is this really in the rulebook? I like the rule but I have not found it. I did find the ruling on "Aiding the Dying" page 23 but it only brings a dying character to 0 with a Science check( assuming it is DC 10? but it is not stated). And that another character can trigger your healing second wind as a standard action under "Second Wind" page 22. But nothing about bring a player back to 1.
Just wondering......
"...If the healing effect requires the adventurer to spend a healing surge but he or she has none left, the healing still helps a bit: The adventurer's hit point total is restored to 1."
So... no healing surges. Rule doesn't quite apply, although it's a potentially fun house rule. Perhaps throw in 1d6 hit points instead of 1, and don't give the player the +2 defense buff (as from the Second Wind).
I like it. If you're stabilized, then you're pretty safe, as most monsters won't attack an unconscious player. But if you're awake with 1 HP you are very much at-risk! Should be exciting.
Maybe cashing in an alpha mutation, after you have spent your second wind, allows you to regain your second wind. I'll test it and see what happens.
{ Today's conclusion: A Radioactive Electrokinetic can eventually make a somewhat functional "cleric" }
Special
* Rest = Full hit points.
* 2nd Wind = Half hit points, Self only (though triggerable by other).
Healing Powers (Self)
* Cockroach Utility: Hard to Kill = 10+lvl.
* Engineered Human Utility: Tough as Nails = 5+lvl.
Healing Powers (Other)
* Electrokinetic Utility: Stand Clear!= WisMod+lvl.
* Empath Utility: Share Strength = 10 (but harms ally).
* Empath Critical = 2*lvl.
* Radioactive Utility: Hawking Portal = 5+lvl, you and 2 targets.
Alpha (Other)
* Empathic Healing = 5+lvl, multiple targets on overcharge
* Sympathetic Link = Same as the other guy gets
Alpha (Self)
* Fast Healing = 5 multiple times, 10 on overcharge
* Time Slide = All on overcharge
* Kinetic Absorption = Depends on what hit you
* Vampiric Healing = 5+lvl
* Proboscis = lvl (2*lvl on overcharge)
* Healing Roots = Half
* Shimmershield = Electical damage take on overcharge
* Redundant Organs = What you have now sort of
* Inhabit Corpse = Resurection with half
Omega (Other)
* Hospice Beacon = 10 + 5 per round in zone
Omega (Self)
* The Patch = Half
* The Patch II = Half +2d6
* Autodoc = 10 + 5 per round
* Phoenix Neurojack = Half ! its salvage version as well !
5 rounds later (about 75 minutes real-time from start to finish) the fight ended and we took a short rest.
Thats right, an hour and fifteen minutes of doing....nothing. The Next session we played, we went on to the third encounter, i got knocked unconscious in one round (round 2 of the fight) and just left to play some Yahoo Chess for a while. Luckily that combat TPK'd the party and only took about 40 minutes.
Wow you have a slow group.
As for the time it takes your party to play, well, that's not the rule's fault.
My group fights hard and uses the rule above on second winds to get their comrades back in the fight.
And by the way, this is Gamma World, always deadlier than other fantasy settings.
again, the "trigger a second wind" while unconscious should solve most of the problems.
To the person who mentioned all those methods of healing....well, the loot is random, as are the alpha-mutations, and our group has yet to get past level 1 (we've only played twice, and session 2 included a TPK). When my character died, i actually HAD "the Patch II" but was dropped from full to unconscious between my turns.
I realized that problem when on PC went down after already using second wind. I made a house rule, if player rolls a 20 on your death save, that charcter can get up with thier bloodied value in Hp. If a unconcious player is stabalized by a Science check, they can still make the save roll, and try for the 20, to get up and back in the fight. It's not the best solution, but it at least gives a unconcious Pc a chance to get back in the fight and give the player something to do on thier turn.
I used that when I was running a demo in my FLGS. The only potential problem I could see is if one of the players is Empathic and handing out a +5 bonus to death saving throws, which makes it significantly easier to hit 20+ on your roll. This is a good thing for getting players back in, but it could be a bad thing for preserving the possibility of a TPK.
I realized that problem when on PC went down after already using second wind. I made a house rule, if player rolls a 20 on your death save, that charcter can get up with thier bloodied value in Hp. If a unconcious player is stabalized by a Science check, they can still make the save roll, and try for the 20, to get up and back in the fight. It's not the best solution, but it at least gives a unconcious Pc a chance to get back in the fight and give the player something to do on thier turn.
This is the house rule we use too, and it doesn't even bother us that an Empath can help you stand up.
Why change the rules at all?
What kind of thinking is that?
Don't allow for lazy play/slow play, then you wouldn't have to think about!
5 rounds taking 75(!) minutes?
Who are you gaming with, that they need 15(!) minutes for each turn?
....The only potential problem I could see is if one of the players is Empathic and handing out a +5 bonus to death saving throws, which makes it significantly easier to hit 20+ on your roll. This is a good thing for getting players back in, but it could be a bad thing for preserving the possibility of a TPK.
I was thinking a roll of 20 unmodified on d20 at least that is how I was plaing it. But, even with two empaths in the group, I think I will allow a motified 20+ on a death saving throw to let a Pc back into the fight.
A PC that is unconscious is unconscious.
Why change the rules at all?
What kind of thinking is that?
Don't allow for lazy play/slow play, then you wouldn't have to think about!
5 rounds taking 75(!) minutes?
Who are you gaming with, that they need 15(!) minutes for each turn?
i like how its lazy/slow play now....
5 players, 4 monsters....9 total entities.
5 rounds, so 45 total entity rounds
3 actions per round (lets say a minor action is pretty easy, so down to 2 - most things will move and attack) becomes 2 actions a round, so 90 total actions.
less than 1 minute per action, less than 2 minutes per creature/player-turn
on the FIRST TIME EVER PLAYING THE SYSTEM.
thank you for your judgemental lack of comprehension of idea of the post.
to the rest of the people in the thread, again, i think being aware of the ability for another player to trigger an unconscious character's second wind will help greatly. I wasn't aware of the rule before (none of us were, we all missed it), but it should make future sessions go very smoothly.
There are a lot of things about this game that are missing. It says you can use the science skill to stabilize the dying but what is the DC?
Oooh good question, one worthy of the Question forum.
There are a lot of things about this game that are missing. It says you can use the science skill to stabilize the dying but what is the DC?
Oooh good question, one worthy of the Question forum.
It's been asked here:
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
The answer: we don't know.
I think a 'moderate' DC would be good. I don't like making DCs go up just because you're higher level, but it could be DC 15 + the level of the monster that dropped you. On the theory that a high-level monster is just deadlier.
5 rounds later (about 75 minutes real-time from start to finish) the fight ended and we took a short rest.
(snipped)
What experience with this issue have other players had? if there are any devs or similar who play gammaworld and read this forum, what do you think?
Honestly, if its taking your group that long to do 5 rounds of combat at level one when you've only got 2 powers to choose from (3 if you include basic attack), then I think you have a different problem.
Last weekend my group went through 8 encounters in about two and a half hours, and that was with a full group of 6 players, 2 of which had never played before. Spend less time strategizing and getting side-tracked, and the game moves very fast because there arent alot of strategic variables to consider.
Now, several of those encounters were short because they were supposed to be easy. But we ran the intro adventure in about 3 hours, and that was with throwing in an extra encounter that wasnt scripted in the book.
Now, I havent read the whole thread here, but if you were actually playing 4E for the first time, it would be reasonable, and in which case I just say 'Aren't you jumping to conclusions here?'. And if its not the first time you've played 4E, then there's no excuse.
.... But we ran the intro adventure in about 3 hours, and that was with throwing in an extra encounter that wasnt scripted in the book.
It isn't unreasonable to accept a player taking 20 seconds a turn in a Gamma World, but nine twenty minute encounters in a row is just amazing.
Learning as we play, we are averaging just over an hour per encounter (using the adventure in the GW rule book). That doesn't include encounter set up, piss breaks and greeting late players and all the usual random crap that goes on when friends gather for the evening. The encounter in the cave of beta moss and gamma moths and low rolling had Pcs changing alpha mutations as many as 4 times in one turn. That encounter took us over an hour and a half.
Bravo sir, you and your gaming group are by far more astute gamers than our group. You all have learned to play GW in a very effecient manor very quickly.
P>S> that was sarcasm, I believe you did some math, but I find it hard any group of people are that effecient at any task, much less playing a game. But hey I'm just some random guy on the internet, don't take my doubt personally.
.... But we ran the intro adventure in about 3 hours, and that was with throwing in an extra encounter that wasnt scripted in the book.
It isn't unreasonable to accept a player taking 20 seconds a turn in a Gamma World, but nine twenty minute encounters in a row is just amazing.
To be fair, 3 hours is an estimate of actual encounter time - it doesnt actually include the set up times. We played from about 3:00pm (which really means we started at 3:30) and ended at about 7:45. And I hear you about the massive alpha flux rolls - We had one round in a session where 3 PCs got em one right after another. That session in particular had an amazing number of them (I want to say maybe a dozen, but thats just a ballpark estimate. Every encounter featured one or two at least)
We're not talking 20 seconds a turn here, though. Assuming 4 players (since 5 is 'average' and the OP hasnt said. . . but one player was downed, and 4 monsters (he specified S2), thats 8 turns per round - and this doesnt account for the fact that its easier for a DM to coordinate a bunch of monsters on a single initiative count, since he can do all his stuff at once without needing to worry about what players are doing).
8 turns times five rounds means 40 turns taken.
Thats 75 minutes divided by 40 turns, which comes out to 1.875 MINUTES per turn.
2 minutes per turn is not unreasonable for a group that needs to look things up alot because they are new. Its neither unusual for a group that spends alot of time talking and goofing around, but then the players who are unconscious should complain that the others need to get a move on if theyre getting bored. Especially Considering that the majority of turn-takers only need to move and decide between two or three powers. Movement isnt exactly hard to decide on beyond which monster you want to attack. which will likely be determined by what you can get to without provoking, which only takes a glance at the board. Minor actions barely factor in either, unless you get an Alpha/Omega or are a Yeti. So your turn shouldn't take more than 30 seconds or so unless you waste a ton of time by waiting until its your turn and only then thinking about what your character would do.
30 seconds / turn times 40 turns is 1200 seconds, which is 20 minutes. Thats a hell of a lot shorter time than 75 minutes. Even assuming twice that time per turn is only 40mins.
.... But we ran the intro adventure in about 3 hours, and that was with throwing in an extra encounter that wasnt scripted in the book.
It isn't unreasonable to accept a player taking 20 seconds a turn in a Gamma World, but nine twenty minute encounters in a row is just amazing.
To be fair, 3 hours is an estimate of actual encounter time - it doesnt actually include the set up times. We played from about 3:00pm (which really means we started at 3:30) and ended at about 7:45...,
Now that I can believe, thanks for the clarification. Most of the people I play with aren't going to think about what to do on thier turn until its there turn. I can ask, I can couch but in the end, there at the game to have a good time, goof off and have fun. So we get a lot of side discussions and players not ready when it is there turn. I think we can do those encounters in the rule book in about 40 minutes after we learn to play. After three sessions we are starting to get comfortable with the cards and how to use them in play. I have to new players, with little experience in table top, they both take a lot of time deciding on what to do, as they fear making a mistake. But at this time we are at 1 hour an encouunter.
I can ask, I can couch but in the end, there at the game to have a good time, goof off and have fun. So we get a lot of side discussions and players not ready when it is there turn. I think we can do those encounters in the rule book in about 40 minutes after we learn to play.
Sure, I get that. Like I said, its not at all unsual for that sort of time for a group - but thats not a problem of the system, which the OP seems to be feeling. Thats just because people (gamers especially) get distracted easilly and go off on tangents about things. Thats all I'm really getting at. (Though we appear to have lost the OP, so it seems more like its just yet another disguised complaint thread. Oh well, those still generate entertainment for me and can create discussion between people who DO care :P)
if so, i'm happy i'm not playing in that game.
I can do the same thing in Warhammer Fantasy or Warhammer 40k without having to deal with a DM at all....i just roll and know if it hit the other player's army.
Gamma World is an incredibly loose system with LOTS of room for LOTS of description. "i attack, hit, and deal X damage" just gets boring and repetitive. if you are doing a lot of roleplaying between encounters then at best i would see your game as horribly jarring, where you go from descriptive to utterly bland when the initiative dice are thrown. At worst, its just a bland game where players get together to throw dice.
With the lack of mechanical character customization, the description of WHAT is happening becomes even more important.
We spend a good deal of the game being descriptive because the VAST majority of the players would have no fun just sitting around pushing minis, rolling dice, and calling out numbers.
For example, my first character had street signs pasted all over his body for heavy armor, and smacked people with a "Route 66" sign. He also had a gun in the form of a car engine/tailpipe assembly.
My second character (giant) wears....a car...as his armor. His shield is one of the doors, and his weapon is a tire boot on a chain. He looks a bit like a transformer when readying his weapons. Its a hell of a lot more fun for our group to describe what happens, rather than "i hit him with my heavy 2h melee weapon."
Furthermore, we were all experienced D&D players, but having two engineered humans in the mix for the first game (wierdest race roll-ups EVER.....i rolled up 2 and 2 and got a cockroach human, and my wife rolled 4 and 4 and got an electro-human) slows things down greatly with extra attacks.
Chandrak, are you and your players just going "i move here, i'm attacking this guy with Eau de Roach. 16 vs. Fort. Does that hit? yes? he takes 12 acid damage.
Not at all actually. We spend a fair bit of time making up what happens as a group, often adding things like knocking people prone or pushing/pulling/sliding when its not called for by the powers based on what makes for more entertaining storytelling. We also use charges, grapples, trips, and other things that arent in the base game but that we use other rules' systems for - namely 4E when we can, or rely on simple dex vs reflex attacks and such.
For example, one encounter, on the virtue of a number of KO-crits, ended with almost every enemy OUSIDE the building they started in - they were knocked off balconies, pushed out windows, knocked through walls, and so on. Some of that was the TK guy, but other instances were critical kills. We didnt even realize we'd knocked everyone out of the building til it was all over.
Of course, that made hiding the bodies kind of difficult, and caused the party later problems ;P
I completely agree with it being a loose system that lends itself to description.
Gamma World is an incredibly loose system with LOTS of room for LOTS of description. "i attack, hit, and deal X damage" just gets boring and repetitive. if you are doing a lot of roleplaying between encounters then at best i would see your game as horribly jarring, where you go from descriptive to utterly bland when the initiative dice are thrown. At worst, its just a bland game where players get together to throw dice.
1) @"Don't judge me, because your method of having fun is stupid":
2) Electrokineticists have a power called "Electric Boogaloo." How much more description do you need?
Thought I'd make a list: These are the healing methods I'm aware of: Did I miss any?
* Yeti Utility: Yeti Rage = 3+lvl. (As a Reaction, no less.)