If the erratic rifle hound or regular rifle hound crits... - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

If the erratic rifle hound or regular rifle hound crits...

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
delong1522
Feb 06, 2011 9:39:24
do you think it would use your character's critical hit bonus? Had this dilemma come up in game yesterday. Kind of amusing to think that the erratic rifle hound could potentially kill its master in one shot. So, basically, my question is..

..do omega tech "summons" use the crits of their "summoners" and, if so, would the crit also apply if they hit their "summoner" (like the erratic rifle hound is wont to do).
#2
sirkaikillah
Feb 07, 2011 0:06:03 That is a good question. I would say no. A summon creature does not use the crit of its summoner. From what I can tell, Those crits are tied to a Pcs origin and are a personal part of them. Where lets face it, the the rifle hound is a robot. A Gm that would allow an erratic hound to use a Pcs crit on an attack, would in effect be creating a meta gaming loop hole. In effect a player would gain a mechanical game advantage and effect with no narrative correlation.
#3
Seeker95
Feb 07, 2011 9:11:23 I concur. Only the PCs use the PC crit outcomes, and only on PC-actions.
#4
Tony_Vargas
Feb 11, 2011 18:08:20
It's logical enough to treat it as a separate creature, of course. It occupies a square, has defenses, and can be destroyed by a sufficiently damaging attack... it can even turn on you.

But, there's no 'summon' keyword in GW. It's still the character using one of his Omega Tech cards. For instance, the Rifle Hound says: "You can make the following attack with the hound once per round.; Minor Action, Ranged 10; Target: One creature; Attack: Level + 6 vs. Reflex; Hit: 3d8 + your level laser damage."

It's a minor action, but it's still the PC's action. The attack uses the PC's level for attack & damage rolls. Clearly, the PC is doing something, so aplying his critical isn't unreasonable, either.
#5
Oraibi
Feb 11, 2011 19:21:30

But, there's no 'summon' keyword in GW. It's still the character using one of his Omega Tech cards. For instance, the Rifle Hound says: "You can make the following attack with the hound once per round.; Minor Action, Ranged 10; Target: One creature; Attack: Level + 6 vs. Reflex; Hit: 3d8 + your level laser damage."

It's a minor action, but it's still the PC's action. The attack uses the PC's level for attack & damage rolls. Clearly, the PC is doing something, so aplying his critical isn't unreasonable, either.

I think Tony's on the right track here.

#6
ChaoticGood
Feb 11, 2011 19:56:22 Although I was originally in the "no" camp, Tony's reasoning is pretty solid. I have to agree - the PC would use his or her critical effect when using the Riflehound.
#7
Chandrak
Feb 12, 2011 0:38:21

It's a minor action, but it's still the PC's action. The attack uses the PC's level for attack & damage rolls. Clearly, the PC is doing something, so aplying his critical isn't unreasonable, either.

With strict Gamma World rules, that is to say, you aren't creeping in 4E rules to deal with undefined situations like Charge, etc, then I'd go with Tony's above explanation. If using rules expanded to include 4E keywords, I would say no, it doesn't use your crit bonus, and just maxes the damage.
#8
sirkaikillah
Feb 13, 2011 16:30:11

It's a minor action, but it's still the PC's action. The attack uses the PC's level for attack & damage rolls. Clearly, the PC is doing something, so aplying his critical isn't unreasonable, either.

With strict Gamma World rules, that is to say, you aren't creeping in 4E rules to deal with undefined situations like Charge, etc, then I'd go with Tony's above explanation. If using rules expanded to include 4E keywords, I would say no, it doesn't use your crit bonus, and just maxes the damage.

Tony makes a good argument from a strictly mechanical perspective, there are no game breaking issues in allowing player criticals when using a rifle hound or some other romote to attack . But IMO, the origin critical bonus is more than a mechanical game bonus, but a narrative tool to enhance the effect of a Pcs origin on the games unfolding narrative. Being so tied to a Pc's origin, for me, makes the critical something more personaly attached to the Pc. IMO, allowing a Pc to use his critical bonus, because a player controls and rolls the attack, for the attack of a semi autonomous remote like a rifle hound really spoils the narrative and blurs the line between what is the semi autonimous remote rifle hound and what is the Pc as defined by his origins. To me it is, at worst, metagaming at the expense of the narrative to gain a mechanical advantage.

Then again anything is possible, and if you play on the theme that in a setting where reality is in flux like GW, then a character with a strong will, like a Pc, can unconciously control reality, so remotes like a rifle hound will manifest a Pcs critical bonus and narrative effects.
I think a good Gm could run a fun game allowing the Pcs' critical in such a way or not. In the end it is a matter of taste.

#9
hoffnung
Feb 14, 2011 14:20:54 The interesting thing about this example is that it's the erratic rifle hound, so if you allow the critical bonus you could end up critting on yourself. For me, this adds to the wackiness of the setting, but I get why people might be against this. Would be difficult for a GM to explain why an additional effect has been added to the doggies attack.
#10
majesticmoose
Feb 21, 2011 12:29:01 I'm gonna say by RAW, the attack originates from an attack roll the PC makes, so it's a viable candidate for the bonus crit damage.

I'd say in my game that is a bit OP. Not to mention that thematic problems with the rifle hound causing acid damage on something with it's laser, I just think that for a throw away attack like that, it's too much damage.

Now I could be wrong. If the designers took that into account then blow me down.

By RAW, Yes, in my own game, Pry not.
#11
Tony_Vargas
Feb 25, 2011 15:00:03
IMO, the origin critical bonus is more than a mechanical game bonus, but a narrative tool to enhance the effect of a Pcs origin on the games unfolding narrative. Being so tied to a Pc's origin, for me, makes the critical something more personaly attached to the Pc. IMO, allowing a Pc to use his critical bonus, because a player controls and rolls the attack, for the attack of a semi autonomous remote like a rifle hound really spoils the narrative and blurs the line between what is the semi autonimous remote rifle hound and what is the Pc as defined by his origins.

I could see restricting the origin critical bonus to attacks the mutant actually makes with his own powers (not Omega tech - maybe not even weapons, unless he has a weapon power), or even to just the powers of that origin, if you really wanted to maximize that 'narrative,' sense of what the critical bonus represents. It makes more sense for a telekinetic to slide an enemy if he's using telekinesis, than if he's using a vibroblade or the Swarm! power of his other origin.

As it stands, if you're a Giant/Mind-Breaker, and you happen to hit someone with Brickbat really hard (crit), you give him ongoing psychic damage....

#12
FlashbackJon
Feb 25, 2011 15:14:16 At that point though, you've taken a fairly marginal bonus (given the lack of crit-range-altering in GW) and made it pretty much inconsequential. Not sure I'm a huge fan of that, even if it does make it seem that much more rare and fun (and perhaps encourage the use of origin powers over omega tech and weapons).
#13
Tony_Vargas
Feb 25, 2011 15:31:58 Yeah, I'd rather aply it to any hit the PC makes. That way he actually gets both crit bonuses at high level, for instance, and the player showcases his origin(s) on every crit. IMX, players don't need further encouragement to hold off on using Omega Tech, and just use at-will powers and basic attacks. Quite the reverse, really.

I was just looking at it from sirkaikillah's pov. If you're concerned about making the powers granted by origins inernally consistent, it'd make sense to only get a TK power with a TK critical, or at least, only when the telekenetic is actually doing something himself, not just activating some Omega Tech he doesn't really understand. Tacking a little psychic oomph onto a swing of your 9-iron is one thing, tacking it onto a shell from your mini-tank is something else, entirely.
#14
sirkaikillah
Feb 27, 2011 17:53:43
Yeah, I'd rather aply it to any hit the PC makes. That way he actually gets both crit bonuses at high level, for instance, and the player showcases his origin(s) on every crit. IMX, players don't need further encouragement to hold off on using Omega Tech, and just use at-will powers and basic attacks. Quite the reverse, really.

I was just looking at it from sirkaikillah's pov. If you're concerned about making the powers granted by origins inernally consistent, it'd make sense to only get a TK power with a TK critical, or at least, only when the telekenetic is actually doing something himself, not just activating some Omega Tech he doesn't really understand. Tacking a little psychic oomph onto a swing of your 9-iron is one thing, tacking it onto a shell from your mini-tank is something else, entirely.

I'm not concerned about discouraging the use of Oemga Tech or getting my players to rely on orgin powers. IMX is the same as yours, players tend to rely on thier known origin powers more than Omega Tech. It all comes down to the narrative. For me any and all game mechanics should support the narrative. IMO, the mechanics attached to the origin criticals are narrativly attached to the specific origin. Yet, I can see how I can narrate the effects of a origins crit from the use of such omega tech like plasma rifle, or photon spear. I think it is a matter of taste on whether a gaming group wants to extend that effect to a semi autonymous remote like a rifle hound. To be honest if a player would suggest an Idea, I would call them on metagaming. But I don't think choosing to allow a crit through the attack of a rifle hound or choosing not too, are game breaking decisions. I think you can play it either way and still enjoy the game.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 delong1522 Feb 06, 2011 9:39:24	do you think it would use your character's critical hit bonus? Had this dilemma come up in game yesterday. Kind of amusing to think that the erratic rifle hound could potentially kill its master in one shot. So, basically, my question is.. ..do omega tech "summons" use the crits of their "summoners" and, if so, would the crit also apply if they hit their "summoner" (like the erratic rifle hound is wont to do).
#2 sirkaikillah Feb 07, 2011 0:06:03	That is a good question. I would say no. A summon creature does not use the crit of its summoner. From what I can tell, Those crits are tied to a Pcs origin and are a personal part of them. Where lets face it, the the rifle hound is a robot. A Gm that would allow an erratic hound to use a Pcs crit on an attack, would in effect be creating a meta gaming loop hole. In effect a player would gain a mechanical game advantage and effect with no narrative correlation.
#3 Seeker95 Feb 07, 2011 9:11:23	I concur. Only the PCs use the PC crit outcomes, and only on PC-actions.
#4 Tony_Vargas Feb 11, 2011 18:08:20	It's logical enough to treat it as a separate creature, of course. It occupies a square, has defenses, and can be destroyed by a sufficiently damaging attack... it can even turn on you. But, there's no 'summon' keyword in GW. It's still the character using one of his Omega Tech cards. For instance, the Rifle Hound says: "You can make the following attack with the hound once per round.; Minor Action, Ranged 10; Target: One creature; Attack: Level + 6 vs. Reflex; Hit: 3d8 + your level laser damage." It's a minor action, but it's still the PC's action. The attack uses the PC's level for attack & damage rolls. Clearly, the PC is doing something, so aplying his critical isn't unreasonable, either.
#5 Oraibi Feb 11, 2011 19:21:30	But, there's no 'summon' keyword in GW. It's still the character using one of his Omega Tech cards. For instance, the Rifle Hound says: "You can make the following attack with the hound once per round.; Minor Action, Ranged 10; Target: One creature; Attack: Level + 6 vs. Reflex; Hit: 3d8 + your level laser damage." It's a minor action, but it's still the PC's action. The attack uses the PC's level for attack & damage rolls. Clearly, the PC is doing something, so aplying his critical isn't unreasonable, either. I think Tony's on the right track here.
#6 ChaoticGood Feb 11, 2011 19:56:22	Although I was originally in the "no" camp, Tony's reasoning is pretty solid. I have to agree - the PC would use his or her critical effect when using the Riflehound.
#7 Chandrak Feb 12, 2011 0:38:21	It's a minor action, but it's still the PC's action. The attack uses the PC's level for attack & damage rolls. Clearly, the PC is doing something, so aplying his critical isn't unreasonable, either. With strict Gamma World rules, that is to say, you aren't creeping in 4E rules to deal with undefined situations like Charge, etc, then I'd go with Tony's above explanation. If using rules expanded to include 4E keywords, I would say no, it doesn't use your crit bonus, and just maxes the damage.
#8 sirkaikillah Feb 13, 2011 16:30:11	It's a minor action, but it's still the PC's action. The attack uses the PC's level for attack & damage rolls. Clearly, the PC is doing something, so aplying his critical isn't unreasonable, either. With strict Gamma World rules, that is to say, you aren't creeping in 4E rules to deal with undefined situations like Charge, etc, then I'd go with Tony's above explanation. If using rules expanded to include 4E keywords, I would say no, it doesn't use your crit bonus, and just maxes the damage. Tony makes a good argument from a strictly mechanical perspective, there are no game breaking issues in allowing player criticals when using a rifle hound or some other romote to attack . But IMO, the origin critical bonus is more than a mechanical game bonus, but a narrative tool to enhance the effect of a Pcs origin on the games unfolding narrative. Being so tied to a Pc's origin, for me, makes the critical something more personaly attached to the Pc. IMO, allowing a Pc to use his critical bonus, because a player controls and rolls the attack, for the attack of a semi autonomous remote like a rifle hound really spoils the narrative and blurs the line between what is the semi autonimous remote rifle hound and what is the Pc as defined by his origins. To me it is, at worst, metagaming at the expense of the narrative to gain a mechanical advantage. Then again anything is possible, and if you play on the theme that in a setting where reality is in flux like GW, then a character with a strong will, like a Pc, can unconciously control reality, so remotes like a rifle hound will manifest a Pcs critical bonus and narrative effects. I think a good Gm could run a fun game allowing the Pcs' critical in such a way or not. In the end it is a matter of taste.
#9 hoffnung Feb 14, 2011 14:20:54	The interesting thing about this example is that it's the erratic rifle hound, so if you allow the critical bonus you could end up critting on yourself. For me, this adds to the wackiness of the setting, but I get why people might be against this. Would be difficult for a GM to explain why an additional effect has been added to the doggies attack.
#10 majesticmoose Feb 21, 2011 12:29:01	I'm gonna say by RAW, the attack originates from an attack roll the PC makes, so it's a viable candidate for the bonus crit damage. I'd say in my game that is a bit OP. Not to mention that thematic problems with the rifle hound causing acid damage on something with it's laser, I just think that for a throw away attack like that, it's too much damage. Now I could be wrong. If the designers took that into account then blow me down. By RAW, Yes, in my own game, Pry not.
#11 Tony_Vargas Feb 25, 2011 15:00:03	IMO, the origin critical bonus is more than a mechanical game bonus, but a narrative tool to enhance the effect of a Pcs origin on the games unfolding narrative. Being so tied to a Pc's origin, for me, makes the critical something more personaly attached to the Pc. IMO, allowing a Pc to use his critical bonus, because a player controls and rolls the attack, for the attack of a semi autonomous remote like a rifle hound really spoils the narrative and blurs the line between what is the semi autonimous remote rifle hound and what is the Pc as defined by his origins. I could see restricting the origin critical bonus to attacks the mutant actually makes with his own powers (not Omega tech - maybe not even weapons, unless he has a weapon power), or even to just the powers of that origin, if you really wanted to maximize that 'narrative,' sense of what the critical bonus represents. It makes more sense for a telekinetic to slide an enemy if he's using telekinesis, than if he's using a vibroblade or the Swarm! power of his other origin. As it stands, if you're a Giant/Mind-Breaker, and you happen to hit someone with Brickbat really hard (crit), you give him ongoing psychic damage....
#12 FlashbackJon Feb 25, 2011 15:14:16	At that point though, you've taken a fairly marginal bonus (given the lack of crit-range-altering in GW) and made it pretty much inconsequential. Not sure I'm a huge fan of that, even if it does make it seem that much more rare and fun (and perhaps encourage the use of origin powers over omega tech and weapons).
#13 Tony_Vargas Feb 25, 2011 15:31:58	Yeah, I'd rather aply it to any hit the PC makes. That way he actually gets both crit bonuses at high level, for instance, and the player showcases his origin(s) on every crit. IMX, players don't need further encouragement to hold off on using Omega Tech, and just use at-will powers and basic attacks. Quite the reverse, really. I was just looking at it from sirkaikillah's pov. If you're concerned about making the powers granted by origins inernally consistent, it'd make sense to only get a TK power with a TK critical, or at least, only when the telekenetic is actually doing something himself, not just activating some Omega Tech he doesn't really understand. Tacking a little psychic oomph onto a swing of your 9-iron is one thing, tacking it onto a shell from your mini-tank is something else, entirely.
#14 sirkaikillah Feb 27, 2011 17:53:43	Yeah, I'd rather aply it to any hit the PC makes. That way he actually gets both crit bonuses at high level, for instance, and the player showcases his origin(s) on every crit. IMX, players don't need further encouragement to hold off on using Omega Tech, and just use at-will powers and basic attacks. Quite the reverse, really. I was just looking at it from sirkaikillah's pov. If you're concerned about making the powers granted by origins inernally consistent, it'd make sense to only get a TK power with a TK critical, or at least, only when the telekenetic is actually doing something himself, not just activating some Omega Tech he doesn't really understand. Tacking a little psychic oomph onto a swing of your 9-iron is one thing, tacking it onto a shell from your mini-tank is something else, entirely. I'm not concerned about discouraging the use of Oemga Tech or getting my players to rely on orgin powers. IMX is the same as yours, players tend to rely on thier known origin powers more than Omega Tech. It all comes down to the narrative. For me any and all game mechanics should support the narrative. IMO, the mechanics attached to the origin criticals are narrativly attached to the specific origin. Yet, I can see how I can narrate the effects of a origins crit from the use of such omega tech like plasma rifle, or photon spear. I think it is a matter of taste on whether a gaming group wants to extend that effect to a semi autonymous remote like a rifle hound. To be honest if a player would suggest an Idea, I would call them on metagaming. But I don't think choosing to allow a crit through the attack of a rifle hound or choosing not too, are game breaking decisions. I think you can play it either way and still enjoy the game.