Is it was claimed that its sales would be used to gauge future support, and Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk has been such a hit that there has been a decision made to definitely provide Greyhawk support going forward?
Such as continued Greyhawk "support" via online Dragon and Dungeon, ala the Demonomicon?
Or a future setting book? How soon after 2008 when FR gets its book. I'm guessing Eberron gets its book in 2009. Then a nontraditional setting, maybe Dark Sun in 2010, setting up Greyhawk for 2011. *shrug* It would suck to wait that long, but I can hold out. ;)
Or is Greyhawk getting its own 4e forum simply a bone tossed to the Greyhawk fans to keep them from threaddumping elsewhere. ;)
Now maybe some D&D Greyhawk Minis.
Like Iggwilv, and Warnes Starcoat, and Rary, and Lord Robilar, and Ernie's Cousin and...
WOOHOO!!!!!!!!!
Now maybe some D&D Greyhawk Minis.
Like Iggwilv, and Warnes Starcoat, and Rary, and Lord Robilar, and Ernie's Cousin and...
And Gord, maybe the Justicar... ohhh and Cinders! Yes, a sentiant Hellhound pelt, that would ROCK!
But that is only one pessimists view of things.
I'm more than a little worried about the sales of "Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk" though. I mean who would go out and buy a book that's obsolete before it hit the shelves? I had every intention of buying the book, but didn't. I'm running a Ptolus campaign right now, and that will run at least until the new edition sees the light of day, so why would I buy a book that will get redone (yet again)? I don't really have any plans to buy any new material (I've got almost everything that's been published anyway). I'm wondering if I'm alone in this? Anyone else just not going to buy any 3.5 material?
I'm more than a little worried about the sales of "Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk" though. I mean who would go out and buy a book that's obsolete before it hit the shelves?...Anyone else just not going to buy any 3.5 material?
I'm not going to buy any more sourcebooks (other than the two fluff-heavy Eberron books), but I'll be running multiple D&D games for the forseeable future. That said, I've picked up the 'Ruins' adventure, and after the impressive first installment of Pathfinder, I'll definitely be collecting that series as well. Development may have ceased for the 3.5 system, but that doesn't render it unplayable or less fun! 4e is still a very long ways off.
I'm glad to hear that Pathfinder is good, that is something that I will pick up - Paizo has been putting out great products for years and I want to keep supporting them.
Pleasantly surprise? I'm down right shocked. I had thought they had locked away all things Greyhawk ages ago and threw away the key. I would love to see a campaign guide updated for the new edition.
I'm more than a little worried about the sales of "Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk" though. I mean who would go out and buy a book that's obsolete before it hit the shelves? I had every intention of buying the book, but didn't. I'm running a Ptolus campaign right now, and that will run at least until the new edition sees the light of day, so why would I buy a book that will get redone (yet again)? I don't really have any plans to buy any new material (I've got almost everything that's been published anyway). I'm wondering if I'm alone in this? Anyone else just not going to buy any 3.5 material?
Well, I'm rather enthusiastic about the upcoming 4th ed, and I'm picking up EttRoG.
Remember, while many sweeping changes may be made, this isn't as huge a change differential as between AD&D and D&D 3.0/3.5. It's still the D20 mechanic governing everything, they'll still have DC's to be met;
I'll just have to do a little math to account for the change over to defenses instead of saving throws, and that's STILL less math than it took to convert my old 1st ed AD&D and 2nd ed AD&D stuff to 3rd ed.
Remember, while many sweeping changes may be made, this isn't as huge a change differential as between AD&D and D&D 3.0/3.5.
I would say that both of us have no way of knowing what the changes are going to be. In reality we have almost no information upon which to base our opinions. I'm looking forward to seeing what the changes are - but converting any 3.5 material to 4.0 is going to take a lot of work. I mean, why have a 4th edition (other than to sell us more books) if you're not going to make some pretty major changes? If you want to redo all the stat blocks for an adventure well all the power to you. I don't have that kind of time, and when I do I might as well come up with something original. I will admit to converting some planescape and undermountain stuff, but at the time there appeared to be no chance this material would be revisited. It was a lot of work. At this point I'd rather just wait for them to do all the work and re-release the Castle Greyhawk stuff.
SELF-QUOTE: It's still the D20 mechanic governing everything, they'll still have DC's to be met
They've stated that THIS is not going to change.
They've stated that THIS is not going to change.
True, but do you think that D&D is the only game that uses this system? All I'm saying is that even if you still roll a d20 and have to overcome a certain number that does not mean that the two editions will be easy to convert between. There may well still be a massive amount of work to convert a stat block from one version to the other. I'm not prepared to buy stuff that I know will not be supported in the future. Besides, once 4th edition hits the streets 3.5 stuff will hit the bargain bins ;)
I just think these are here to discuss how the campaign would fit into 4e, not a promise that WotC is going to publish new material for these campaigns.
Every campaign that WotC has published got a main forum (or in Other Campaigns, its own thread: see Birthright).
I think that's silly claim that because Other Campaigns exists as a forum that there is nothing special about getting a specific forum for specific campaigns. Plus, every campaign did NOT get its own forum. Other campaigns covers everything in existence or everything possible. Calling out four settings for particular notice and giving distinct forums is worth noting.
I'm not prepared to buy stuff that I know will not be supported in the future. Besides, once 4th edition hits the streets 3.5 stuff will hit the bargain bins ;)
Good, that means I get to buy your stuff! More for me! :evillaugh
I want a Greyhawk hardback campaign guide! The FR and Eberron guys are getting one...
Agreed . This would be the thing that would make me buy into 4E . It may be the only thing at this point . Unless I were to look at it & decide it's a total bust , which even though I'm not crazy about the timing of it's release , I am willing to read it & give it a go before totally dismissing it .
Where roleplaying began!
A decent treatment of Greyhawk in 4E could possibly be the one thing that gets me to convert from 3.5
this would be the only way to get me to purchase anything related to 4th Ed, though Ill just convert it to 3.x and play as I have been for the last 7 years
Where roleplaying began!
Quoted For Truth
I think I may be preaching blasphemy in the cathedral here, but I would like to see the lands of Greyhawk adopt the 'points of lights in the dark' philosophy of 4E.
I want all the history of Greyhawk up to the end of the 2nd Ed Player's/DM's Guide to Greyhawk codified as the history and then break Greyhawk. Starting with the Circle of Eight and ending with Iuz. Kill 'em all and raze the lands. Let the survivors remember the time of controlled magic, and the old empires. Let the heroes of Greyhawk remember what it was like before, and know that this time there is no guiding force for civilization. They are it, and that they need to get this right the first time.
Basically Traveller's Hard Times for Greyhawk. Let the PC's make the difference this time.
*sharpens pitchfork and begins lighting torches*
Can someone from Wizards post on how well sales of "Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk" are doing?
Sorry we don't talk about sales numbers
Sorry we don't talk about sales numbers
So then, let me ask this. It has been implied that sales of "Expedition" will be a test for the Greyhawk setting. If that is the case, how do we know how we did if we can't get the sales numbers?
So then, let me ask this. It has been implied that sales of "Expedition" will be a test for the Greyhawk setting. If that is the case, how do we know how we did if we can't get the sales numbers?
Look for future Greyhawk produtcs, that will answer the question of how well it sold (assuming that WotC actually does plan to produce future Greyhawk products if they percieve a market for it)... logically, if future Greyhawk products come out it can be inferred that sales of EtCG did well enough to warrent them... and if no future Greyhawk products come out that the sales did not do well enough to warrent them.
Ahh winning friends and influencing people wherever I go. :D
So what would you like to see Greyhawk become?
"Become"?
I'd just like someone to remember that Greyhawk, not the Misbegotten Realms*, not Eberron, started as the D&D campaign where anything went.
We had Arabian-Knights style kingdoms (Ket, Exbir, Zeif, Tusmit) before 2nd edition's Al-Qadim setting, we had Native American-style horsemen running the central plains (the Rovers Of the Barrens), We had Nordic Vikings sweeping out of the North (the Thrillonian barbarians) fueding with Conan-esque mountain-dwelling barbarians (Stonefists, aka, 'Stone Hold'), Arthurian Knights (Aerdy's Knight Protectors), ranger organizations (Knights of the Hart, et al), not one but two distinct Elven Kingdoms (Celene and Highfolk, Lendore got added as strictly elven later), Mongolian Hordes (the Chakyik/Tiger and Wegwiur/Wolf Nomads), Religious Fundamentalist Fanatics (Theocracy of the Pale for the Kristian Inquisition types, the Horned Society for psuedo-Satanists, and Ket quickly turning into a haven for Oerth's versions of Islamofascists), our very own version of Mordor (Iuz's lands), and a concept so weird that only the 1970's could have produced it, Kung-Fu Nazis (the Scarlet Brotherhood.)
I'd like WotC to remember that Greyhawk, not Dark Sun and not Eberron, was the birthplace of psionic player characters and NPC's (Emirikol the Chaotic, anyone? He's definitely not a Wizard or Sorcerer, since 1st ed magic-users couldn't cast spells on horseback, much less do so while galloping down a city street, half-turned around in the saddle to zap someone); I want them to remember that Greyhawk was the first world to have Drow and Duergar PC's, not the Forgotten Realms.
I'd like the designers of any 4th ed Greyhawk products to remember that we have an entire kingdom/empire to justify the existence of orcish and half-orc player characters (the Pomarj), and a wasteland ruled primarily by Ogres and other humanoids (Bone March) for players who want to use half-Ogre characters from Races of Destiny.
About the only PC type I really cannot justify existing in a Greyhawk setting would be Warforged, unless we completely threw out the 'racial' history of the warforged to make each one a unique creation of various wizards whose creations became autonomous.
Even Tieflings fit in, since Iuz often sent legions of Fiends in to patrol his conquered lands before the Canon of Veluna, Hazen, used the Crook of Rao to purge the fiends present in his armies from the Flannaess.
(*: the term 'Misbegotten Realms' used for snark value, not out of any actual dislike of Ed Greenwoods creation...)
Look for future Greyhawk produtcs, that will answer the question of how well it sold (assuming that WotC actually does plan to produce future Greyhawk products if they percieve a market for it)... logically, if future Greyhawk products come out it can be inferred that sales of EtCG did well enough to warrent them... and if no future Greyhawk products come out that the sales did not do well enough to warrent them.
So, I'm supposed to wait until 2010 or beyond to know if it sold well? That doesn't seem like a prudent choice.
Where roleplaying began!
Ironicaly, you guy forget that before Greyhawk, there was Blackmoor and more, Mystara - the setting(s) of the first D&D incarnation(s).
It is quite ironic that the stereotypical grognards blast newer settings (and let us remember, FR is NOT new), when they forget the REAL first setting(s).
Sorry we don't talk about sales numbers
Not the answer that we wanted, but welcome to this corner of the boards!
Ironicaly, you guy forget that before Greyhawk, there was Blackmoor and more, Mystara - the setting(s) of the first D&D incarnation(s).
It is quite ironic that the stereotypical grognards blast newer settings (and let us remember, FR is NOT new), when they forget the REAL first setting(s).
Blackmoor was Dave Arneson's campaign, and Mystara was the D&D Boxed Sets (Basic, Expert, Companion, Master, and Immortal; I've only played the first two); Gygax included an homage to Blackmoor when he named a country/region in the World of Greyhawk after it.
Perhaps Thurbane meant that that was where roleplaying began for him?
And just because I'm old enough to be the father of one D&D player and my wife and I are raising another, doesn't make me a grognard. I love video games too much for that :D
Ironicaly, you guy forget that before Greyhawk, there was Blackmoor and more, Mystara - the setting(s) of the first D&D incarnation(s).
It is quite ironic that the stereotypical grognards blast newer settings (and let us remember, FR is NOT new), when they forget the REAL first setting(s).
As I understood it (could be wrong), the game world where Gygax initially played with his friends in the game that would become D&D and would be set in Mystara, is actually what became Greyhawk. So while Mystara was the first published setting, I think (could be wrong) that it could be argued that Greyhawk was the first setting.
As I understood it (could be wrong), the game world where Gygax initially played with his friends in the game that would become D&D and would be set in Mystara, is actually what became Greyhawk. So while Mystara was the first published setting, I think (could be wrong) that it could be argued that Greyhawk was the first setting.
You are wrong. Those three settings were developed by different DM's before TSR published them, although technically, Arneson's was first. Blackmoor just wasn't published as a setting until 3.0 came out. Greyhawk was just the first to be published as a fully-fleshed out boxed set, whereas Mystara was published kind of peacemeal, with the Duchy of Karameikos (sp?) published in the Basic Boxed Set, and the continent map published in the Isle of Dread adventure module, which was in the Expert Set box.
You are wrong. Those three settings were developed by different DM's before TSR published them, although technically, Arneson's was first. Blackmoor just wasn't published as a setting until 3.0 came out. Greyhawk was just the first to be published as a fully-fleshed out boxed set, whereas Mystara was published kind of peacemeal, with the Duchy of Karameikos (sp?) published in the Basic Boxed Set, and the continent map published in the Isle of Dread adventure module, which was in the Expert Set box.
Blackmoor was before Greyhawk? Good to know. I was still under the impression that Greyhawk was being played in before Mystara however...
So, I'm supposed to wait until 2010 or beyond to know if it sold well? That doesn't seem like a prudent choice.
Since WotC doesn't discuss sales numbers it is your only choice.
Since WotC doesn't discuss sales numbers it is your only choice.
And therein lies the rub, the only choice....
Sorry we don't talk about sales numbers
Can you possibly talk about a Greyhawk hardback????
Get Erik Mona that contract! Mike
The First Fantasy Campaign was published by Judges Guild back in the old days, and four adventures were released for Basic+ D&D set in Blackmoor.
Mystara, despite appearing in the Expert Set, wasn't actually made a setting util later, when the Grand Duchy of Karameikos Gazzetteer was released, upgrading the very generic area map in the Expert Set to a full setting.
Blackmoor was before Greyhawk? Good to know. I was still under the impression that Greyhawk was being played in before Mystara however...
It was, just as Gygax's private home campaign, not as a published entity. However, the Mystara setting itself didn't get its own name and World-sourcebook boxed set until sometime around 2nd edition AD&D, before then it was just the 'Known World' of D&D, which at the time was AD&D's red-headed step-sibling.
ROB
It was, just as Gygax's private home campaign, not as a published entity.
That was what I was trying to say. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
but, WOWWWW!!! When I saw a Greyhawk board in the 4th Edition forum... WOWWWWW... i got thrilled!!!
Definetely I will only convert my game to the 4th edition IF Greyhawk gets new material, specially a brand new hardcover book.
I'm really anxious now! :D
C'ya
Here's what I posted over on the 4th ed Forgotten Realms board early this morning:
Originally Posted by To11
I actually like these spoilers quite a bit - the Tyr-Helm incident has a very mythological feel to it (reminds me of Loki orchestrating the death of Baldur, both in the incident and in the reaction of the other deities - Cyric really became a Realms version of Loki in 3rd edition).
Agreed, albeit a sick, twisted, darker version of Loki.. then again, Loki was pretty sick, twisted, and dark at the end, so...The Orc King prologue also mentions the "disastrous merging of two worlds". Is that part of the Spellplague? A result of it? Someone mentioned that the name Abeir-Toril actually referred to 2 worlds - perhaps Dweomerheart/Mystra/the Weave seperated those worlds, and their collapse (even momentarily) resulted in some sort of planar conjunction. Or maybe this "world merging" is meant to be more metaphorical or not related to the Spellplague at all.
Um, I might have an idea. You guys are probably going to hate me for saying this but...
Another poster over in the 4th ed Greyhawk board pointed out that despite the die-hard nature of Greyhawk fans, we probably weren't going to see a hardback Greyhawk seting worldbook in the works...because it's too much like the Realms already...
(Ah, yes, I can hear the groans from those who've gotten where I'm going with this...)
What if the 'Abier' that gets re-merged with Toril to return it to 'Abier-Toril' is Oerth? It (the Flannaess) could certainly fit on the other side of the Trackless Sea. And the Olman peoples of the Amedio Jungle are awfully similar to a dark noir version of the peoples of Maztica (and we really don't know WHAT lands lie to the north of the Maztican empire...)
That's just one of many weird ideas I had on where they might be going. If it were the case, then the 4th ed Greyhawk hardback would also be the 4th ed FR hardback, or a supplement to it. I hope it's not, but even if it isn't, it did spark a campaign idea for me, anyway.
I hope this is just an idea of yours. I'm not saying I wouldn't buy GH's future products if it were true, but the idea does NOT please me as a GH fan - and I think it doesn't please any FR fan too.
Good Lord!!! NO, NO, NO!!!
I hope this is just an idea of yours. I'm not saying I wouldn't buy GH's future products if it were true, but the idea does NOT please me as a GH fan - and I think it doesn't please any FR fan too.
Like I said, I have no solid proof and therefore might be "Blowing smoke out my A$$". After all, I have been known to put 2 & 2 together and come up with the square root of baseball...
So whilst he was wenching his way through Greyhawk the rest of Faerun were suffering from their mages that had gone completely insane?
Hmm, does this mean Mordenkainen invited Elminster over for tea only to find he had taken up fairly long term lodgings there...
Erik Mona told me at Gencon that he was pretty much done with Greyhawk. My apologies to burst a hopeful bubble, but a little realism never hurts.
This is not strictly correct.
I said that I wrote "Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk" as if it would be the last Greyhawk book that I would get a chance to write.
It is not necessary that this be the case.
--Erik
I stand happily corrected then.
Can I proof it for you if you do? I've proofed for Blackwyrm on Gestalt, and I come with low priced fees.
I certainly hope it is not the last Greyhawk book you get the opportunity to write. As mentioned on Canonfire, I felt you did a great job and I was extremely pleased with most it's content. A job well done, especially, under the trying circumstances, editing, and book layout you were provided to work with.
I hope that someday I too will have the opportunity you have already received. Once again THANKS!
My guess: They don't know what to do with it so they're being silent on the issue.
The primary reason for silence and for the ambiguity, I believe, is that no one really knows what the Living Greyhawk campaign has done with it yet. How much of the material that the RPGA wrote for the campaign is truly usable? Will it be a better or worse setting to build on than when LG started? What will happen between now and the end of the campaign?
Part of the draw of Living Greyhawk was the ability to actually have an impact on the world itself. Wizards could just ignore everything that the RPGA has done. They could just throw it all in a basket (a really BIG basket) and toss in a lighter.
The most prudent move by far, however, would be to wait and see what the campaign world is like after Living Greyhawk has fully run its course. I don't personally expect any official word until probably 3rd quarter next year at the earliest.
Besides, I think basing marketing strategies on a single Greyhawk adventure is a poor buisness plan. To me only a select few in any gaming group would likely buy a given adventure.
Now I could see basing future sales on say... a Campaign Book. Such a book would likely be needed by everyone that plays in that campaign. That would generate a more appropriate sales figure related to the true number of people interested in Greyhawk. But sadly that opportunity has been passed over time and again.
So, what has changed to make me think things will be different.... hmm, nothing.
Long Live Greyhawk!!
I'd be astounded if WotC does absolutely nothing with the GH setting but initially the best we might be able to hope for is a paragraph of advice on where to place generic game world modules.
I'm also hoping that Dragon will produce articles with suggested 'domain' feats for clerics of the Greyhawk gods that didn't make it into core fairly quickly. If FR is getting its own book so they won't need to do it for that so GH might be in with a shout.
A new sourcebook is probably a dream and potentially a nightmare! Lets not rock the boat too much on that score and I may live long enough for the Oerth Journal to detail avery major city instead. :D
Blackmoor was published before.
The First Fantasy Campaign was published by Judges Guild back in the old days, and four adventures were released for Basic+ D&D set in Blackmoor.
Mystara, despite appearing in the Expert Set, wasn't actually made a setting util later, when the Grand Duchy of Karameikos Gazzetteer was released, upgrading the very generic area map in the Expert Set to a full setting.
Greyhawk as we know it evolved out of four sources:
Dave Arneson's Blackmoor campaign (first)
Gary Gygax's Greyhawk campaign (second)
Rob Kuntz's Maure-related campaign (I forget the proper name)
Jim Ward's Lendore Isles
Gygax, Kuntz and Ward's games basically overlapped and Gary borrowed some concepts from Arneson's campaign world. This is happening in the early to mid-70s.
The first published version of Greyhawk incorporated pieces of all four and was published in 1980 (folio)
The Expert set with the map for the Known World came out in 1981.
The first Mystara Gazeteer is 1987.
I'm more than a little worried about the sales of "Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk" though. I mean who would go out and buy a book that's obsolete before it hit the shelves?
Me.
I bought it for the fluff and the Gygaxian feel of the adventure. My goodness, it's so different from anything else on the market, but in a good way.
I hope that Dragonlance and Greyhawk's appearance here as highlighted forums means they're the next on the block for campaign treatment.
So much for that. I see that, following the most recent reorganization, only FR and Eberron have separate 4E fora.
Maybe once the next setting in line gets announced, it will get its own forum, too.
Rob Kuntz's Maure-related campaign (I forget the proper name)
Kalibruhn.
Jim Ward's Lendore Isles
That would be Lenard Lakofka, not Jim Ward.
So much for that. I see that, following the most recent reorganization, only FR and Eberron have separate 4E fora.
-Because they are the only two settings with WotC support. All of the 'others', so to speak, are currently defunct, as in they recieve no official WotC support.
Maybe once the next setting in line gets announced, it will get its own forum, too.
-Correct. And, like the Forgotten Realms, and Eberron, it, too, will be limited to 1 section, unless it exhibits sufficient traffic to warrant more than one.
If writers begin to take up the challenge and put out material worthy of publication and meet the challenge of seed the beginnings of a profitable product line then campaign source material is sure to follow. However, far to few of the novels written in the varios settings setting have been set in Grey Hawk.
The Eyes Have It, by Rose Estes is excellent and the three books written by Paul Kidd (White Plume Mountain, Descent into the Depths of the Earth and Queen of the Demonweb Pits) are absolutely hysterical. Anyone who ever played D&D growing up will instantly relate to these books. One of my favorite scenes being when Polk, a Teamster following the main character around lists off his equipment list which contains everything listed in the 1st Ed. PHB and finalizes with a 10 ft. Pole.
I know that more then a few of you out there are competent writers, if you want to preserve the Greyhawk setting then start writing. WoTC does an Open Call to Writers every February. Start writing now and the more submissions that they receive (or rather the more GOOD submissions they recieve) the more likely something is to be published and the more strength the Grey Hawk Line will command.
I think that the failings of the the other worlds are due to a lack of literary support. Yes, even Ravenloft, which started out very strong but gradually dwindled over time as the quality of the novels began to decline.