I don't think it's a high possibility that there ever will be, but I've been wrong before.
The Dragonlance people were more on top of it and it got posted in a couple of different places there.
I do remember them saying that Greyhawk would be reset back to the time prior to everything that happened in Living Greyhawk for 3.0 and 3.5.
Outside of the mentions at the major cons we have not heard anything else since.
Although they never mentioned it in the article up for May 1st in Dragon. The Celestian Order was a Greyhawk staple.
No, really, I'm asking honestly, because I have no idea.
FR and Eberron though? pretty different. FR seems like a LotR-ish setting while Eberron has robots and electric trains... i think i heard the word "magepunk" to describe it.
Ravenloft and FR are similar in that they both are pseudo-mediveal, but Ravenloft just seems that much darker. and Dark Sun is... Dark Sun.
i'm much happier having a bunch of different types of settings coming out that have whole different moods and feels to them, then have to sit through another pseudo-medieval europe fantasy RPG setting.
Eberron does not have robots or electric trains. >< Eberron has golems and trains run by magic crystals.
to the casual observer.
i doubt my younger sister could tell you the difference between FR, Grayhawk & Mystara and Blackmoor other then "they're different places?..."just by looking at sample covers of books.
she could probably identify an eberron book since it has robots and electric trains.
it doesn't matter that the warforged were a race of sentient golems, mass-produced for war and that the lightning rail is a magical mag-lev train that jumps from crystal to crystal on a set route... these things are not known to the casual observer.
they do see robots and electric trains though.
i'm much happier having a bunch of different types of settings coming out that have whole different moods and feels to them, then have to sit through another pseudo-medieval europe fantasy RPG setting.
You do realize you're playing fantasy right? The standard MO is 'Medieval Europe with a Twist.' There are exceptions to this (such as Dark Sun) but they are the exception, not the rule.
EDIT: Just read the post above. To the very casual observer your points would be valid.
Eberron does not have robots or electric trains! It does have Warforged (which are sentient Golems) and the 'trains' are a whole lot more complex that simple trains.
You do realize you're playing fantasy right? The standard MO is 'Medieval Europe with a Twist.' There are exceptions to this (such as Dark Sun) but they are the exception, not the rule.
EDIT: Just read the post above. To the very casual observer your points would be valid.
that's the thing. if i want to play "pseudo-medieval europe" i know what my options are and i have enough knowledge of the various popular settings out there to know what i want from it.
Newbie gamer A, however? does he really need 7 twists on "pseudo-medieval europe"? no.
i understand that different people have their own preferences for settings, but if you want to grab a wider audience, you need to branch out with unique (or at least different) settings.
FR = pseudo-medieval europe
Eberron = Magepunk/tech
Ravenloft = pseudo-medieval europe horror
Dark Sun = Post-apocalyptic survival and psionics
Spelljammer = D&D... IN SPAAAAAACE!
Planescape = all of the above
all those settings are different enough to give a newbie some variety. if they want to look at other similiar settings, i'm sure someone will point them to "Setting Y" and get the information that way.
You do realize you're playing fantasy right? The standard MO is 'Medieval Europe with a Twist.'
That, however, is horribly overdone, trite, cliche'-ridden and boring as hell.
Spelljammer = D&D... IN SPAAAAAACE!
Hahah..That is rich! I love it.
That, however, is horribly overdone, trite, cliche'-ridden and boring as hell.
That may be however, if you want something different, there are plenty of other games in the sea
That may be however, if you want something different, there are plenty of other games in the sea
So WotC should not try to do something outside of the box so customers can give money to their competitor's instead?
it's "how many standard fantasy settings (... with a twist!) do we need?"
would the game benefit more from having 7 settings based off of diverse concepts or 7 settings exploring diverse aspects of one concept?
I honestly haven't played AD&D for about 13 years but decided to come check out this site since I heard they launched 4th ed. Is there any word about Greyhawk material being released for 4th ed?
What do you hope for? The same Greyhawk you know, or a new one? Setting-wise, you can still use all the info from previous editions (the 3E Greyhawk Gazetteer has almost no mechanics, for instance: all you'd have to change to use it in 4E is some of the alignments of the deities, since 4E reduced the number of possible alignments). There's a 4E version of the FR already: some people like it, others don't. The latter can just use the Realms as described in previous editions.
Spelljammer = D&D... IN SPAAAAAACE!
Needs more Dr. Strangepork.
So WotC should not try to do something outside of the box so customers can give money to their competitor's instead?
It's hard to do much outside the box while keeping true to the brand (D&D is Fantasy, not space opera cyber punk) and keeping the core mechanics, races and planes.
the issue is not "should WotC try something different?"
it's "how many standard fantasy settings (... with a twist!) do we need?"
would the game benefit more from having 7 settings based off of diverse concepts or 7 settings exploring diverse aspects of one concept?
Like I said, WotC has already tied their hands. I think the weirdest things we'll see are Planescape/Spelljammer, Darksun and an Oriental Adventures.
the issue is not "should WotC try something different?"
it's "how many standard fantasy settings (... with a twist!) do we need?"
would the game benefit more from having 7 settings based off of diverse concepts or 7 settings exploring diverse aspects of one concept?
No, it's "how many can WotC make profitable?" - that goes both for standard settings (with a twist) and concepts that go way outside the box. If it looks like it will sell a couple 100 copies at best, whatever the reason for those low sales, WotC won't burn themselves on it.
No, it's "how many can WotC make profitable?" - that goes both for standard settings (with a twist) and concepts that go way outside the box. If it looks like it will sell a couple 100 copies at best, whatever the reason for those low sales, WotC won't burn themselves on it.
QFT
A point made many years ago was the fact that all the campaign settings sold poorly or so diversified the player base that it hurt TSR. Thus the 1 per year motto for 4e. It is likely we can expect an 8 year life for 4e, and will see a combination of past favorites and new settings released. I am a huge GH fan but would almost prefer they did not release a 4e sourcebook for it, particularly if they were to change the 3e version significantly (like they did w/ the FR).
I would like to see a harsh environment campaign like Dark Sun or a new medieval world more in line w/ the PoL concept than FR (and w/o the FR or GH baggage). If they want to reset DL, though, I would be interested for sure.
It's hard to do much outside the box while keeping true to the brand (D&D is Fantasy, not space opera cyber punk) and keeping the core mechanics, races and planes.
Perhaps it has been, but nothing says it must continue to be. The Developers seem to be quite good at looking beyond Token Tolkienism in coming up with races and classes.
Perhaps it has been, but nothing says it must continue to be. The Developers seem to be quite good at looking beyond Token Tolkienism in coming up with races and classes.
I have no doubt the Devs could develop Klingons, Mon Cals and Centauri, the problem is that the Devs have stated their intent to make all books applicable to every published setting. This means every world must have humans, eladrin, deva, the shadowfel, etc. Even if they are slightly morphed (like what's happening to the planes of Eberron) every setting needs to allow for the existence of everything else. It really does bind their hands and limits the extent of their creativity.
Now this policy could change but in all likelihood won't because it would mean WotC endorses 'Core' and 'Non-Core' books, which is a gross violation of what 4E stands for.
Like I said, WotC has already tied their hands. I think the weirdest things we'll see are Planescape/Spelljammer, Darksun and an Oriental Adventures.
From the rumors I've heard there are 3-4 more campaign settings battling for the right to be the next book published (in rumored order of likeliness):
Dark Sun
Planescape
Ravenloft
Spelljammer
Now, all of these, last I checked, are licenses WotC owns and would easily be able to convert to 4th Ed. I doubt we'll see Spelljammer simply because the other choices are more viable.
Also, don't hold your breathe for Oriental Adventures 4.0. AEG bought the rights to L5R back so Wizards would have to literally craft a new setting from scratch (and why do that when you have literally a dozen or so stashed in the IP bin?).
the issue is not "should WotC try something different?"
it's "how many standard fantasy settings (... with a twist!) do we need?"
To WotC the issue is, which will sell better. It seems pretty that medieval fantasy sells well. Other more outre settings tend to sell less, because they are usually less accessible.
would the game benefit more from having 7 settings based off of diverse concepts or 7 settings exploring diverse aspects of one concept?
Of course, writing off every medieval fantasy settings as being one concept is an oversimplification as well.
What, exactly, was special about Greyhawk? What grabs you about the setting?
No, really, I'm asking honestly, because I have no idea.
Strangely, what drew me to Greyhawk was that it was the game designer's homeworld. And it was home to such legendary figures of the game - Mordenkainen, Bigby, Tenser, etc.
Also, I liked that it feels more "grounded" than Eberron, grittier than FR (and not as detailed) and less epic than Dragonlance. That its "just another medieval world with a twist" actually appeals to me. I prefer looking for fantasy games that are somewhat close to medieval Europe.
Though I still like the occasional world that's completely non-European; Rokugan, Al-Qadim and Dark Sun, for example.
But when I'm planning on doing an extended campaign, I tend to pick Greyhawk as the default world to start on.
Also, don't hold your breathe for Oriental Adventures 4.0. AEG bought the rights to L5R back so Wizards would have to literally craft a new setting from scratch (and why do that when you have literally a dozen or so stashed in the IP bin?).
WotC can fall back on Karu-Tur, though if they go OA, I'd like to see them make an entirely new world. And if WotC were to somehow do a 4E Rokugan, I think I'd go completely postal. D&D and Rokugan does not mix well.
This means every world must have humans, eladrin, deva, the shadowfel, etc. Even if they are slightly morphed (like what's happening to the planes of Eberron) every setting needs to allow for the existence of everything else. It really does bind their hands and limits the extent of their creativity.
I do agree here. They way there are doing things now, every setting they put it will be a kitchen sink setting by default, which is kinda lame, IMO. Sometimes a setting is defined at least as much by what it doesn't have as by what it has.
I think if they have "main" and "secondary" races and classes for different campaign settings it will be fine. The main will get the vast majority of options and will be seen as most tied to the setting, secondary are if you wish to include them.
This way you keep the feel, but don't limit the options.
Same kind of thing could be done with the planes, sort of like MoTP. Have a setting cosmology then show how it could fit into the ordinary cosmology.
As for types of settings. I am all about the weird and out there. The current setting I am running is one where the Spirit World and Material World is divided plunging it into a endless winter and having spirits torn/mutated run amok. Technology has also advanced when the worlds were melded (brilliant minds live on in death quite literally) so you have Mecha and Androids which move through spirits, Spirit-Hacking, cybernetics, etc. Basically Cyberpunk meets Primal Power Source.
The current setting I am building is one where all the planar races have been forced to exodus to a endless flat plane because of a new universe forming and destroying the old. The plane has cities that grow out of the ground, gatetowns (stolen and tweaked from Planescape) and the new universe has begun to breach into this plane in the visual form of a endless blackness above with huge tendrils and tentacles coming down from above. Lots of aberrations are beginning to come into being as well. Mega-cabals are tying to work with the new universe to survive at the cost of this plane's reality and its people.
So yeah... Non-traditional settings for me please.
Also, don't hold your breathe for Oriental Adventures 4.0. AEG bought the rights to L5R back so Wizards would have to literally craft a new setting from scratch (and why do that when you have literally a dozen or so stashed in the IP bin?).
Don't worry, I'm not. I was just citing it as a 'weird' setting WotC could do that wouldn't necessarily morph basic D&D (other than the names, lol). Oh and WotC has plenty of other oriental/Asian settings, including Kara-Tur and Mahasarapa.
I do agree here. They way there are doing things now, every setting they put it will be a kitchen sink setting by default, which is kinda lame, IMO. Sometimes a setting is defined at least as much by what it doesn't have as by what it has.
Totally agree. However, it has to be said that WotC's goal is laudable from a marketing perspective. I never bothered to purchase any of the Hell books simply because I never played in a setting that used the same type of hell.
Don't worry, I'm not. I was just citing it as a 'weird' setting WotC could do that wouldn't necessarily morph basic D&D (other than the names, lol). Oh and WotC has plenty of other oriental/Asian settings, including Kara-Tur and Mahasarapa.
D'oh, forgot that one.
Then there was also Dragon Fist. But, if I remember right, it didn't use straight D&D rules.
D'oh, forgot that one.
Then there was also Dragon Fist. But, if I remember right, it didn't use straight D&D rules.
And WotC doesn't own it anymore (Chris Pramas bought the rights back).
What, exactly, was special about Greyhawk? What grabs you about the setting?
Given the major alternatives, I think the design is sounder and more aesthetically appealing than other "vanilla fantasy" worlds like Mystara and Forgotten Realms (and we can argue about how "vanilla" they are, particularly Mystara which originated in a somewhat different game system and has some very weird and distinctive things about it, but the "to a casual observer" caveat applies). I don't want to bash other settings here, but I like the way Greyhawk handled things a little better. I like the shape of the Flanaess, its mountain ranges and peninsulas, the size and organization of its cultures and nation-states somewhat better than I do for the other major D&D worlds.
There are no themes in Greyhawk that are dramatically different from standard (pre-4e) D&D, but you need a skeleton to hang those themes on, and I liked Oerth's the best.
My favorite setting is still Planescape, but Planescape needs Prime Material worlds, and Oerth is the one that taps most strongly into the history of D&D and its planes and Gygaxian themes. There are other worlds too, and it's important to have more than one, but Oerth is the one that interests me the most.
From the rumors I've heard there are 3-4 more campaign settings battling for the right to be the next book published (in rumored order of likeliness):
Dark Sun
Planescape
Ravenloft
Spelljammer
Now, all of these, last I checked, are licenses WotC owns and would easily be able to convert to 4th Ed. I doubt we'll see Spelljammer simply because the other choices are more viable.
Also, don't hold your breathe for Oriental Adventures 4.0. AEG bought the rights to L5R back so Wizards would have to literally craft a new setting from scratch (and why do that when you have literally a dozen or so stashed in the IP bin?).
Actually the last three have basically been rolled into the Core rules. And the only Darksun rumors are fan based. Greyhawk and Dragonlance were actually mentioned by WOTC staff last year at GenCon.
The hints supposedly given in the last couple of Dragon Magazines are rather vague and hard to interpret.
Actually the last three have basically been rolled into the Core rules.
Until there are actually core rules for adventuring in outer space (enough to run a campaign there), Spelljammer has not yet been rolled into core. I think there's definitely still room for a hardcover describing the ships, spheres, and monsters of the Spelljammer setting.
While Ravenloft has been identified with the Shadowfell, I don't think there's enough info out there to run a 4e Ravenloft campaign - there needs to be a book describing Ravenloft's domains, domain lords, and unique gods and monsters.
fwiw: 4e Village of Hommlet was recently released as a RPGA DM reward.
Why yes it was and I like it immensely
We use him as a recurring npc in our campaign, soon to be elevated to the Champion of Elemental Evil, so it will be nice to see a different spin (our version is currently level 8).
IIRC there was a paladin running around with six shooters he got from a boot hill game in one of the original Kuntz or Gygax games.
To me there is alot of Greyhawk stuff in 4th edition, especially in the core books.
You could easily have the Points of Light areas exactly as they are but on another continent to Flanaess. Oerth is big enough to house quite a few.
Likewise you can change the names of points of light places and gods and slot it into normal Flanaess.
However it is not what the books say, it's how you run it. You can run a very Greyhawk style of game in Points of Light, you just use Greyhawk npcs, monsters, gods etc.
Just because Bane and Zehir are known in Forgotten Realms and now the core books, doesn't mean they have to get a single mention in your campaign or the next nine campaigns. As the GM it is completely up to you what elements you put into the game.
So yes you could run a Greyhawk style game in Faerun, Points of Light or even Ravenloft.
IIRC there was a paladin running around with six shooters he got from a boot hill game in one of the original Kuntz or Gygax games.
:D
Paladin with a gun --> Have Gun, Will Travel
Have Gun Will Travel reads the card of a man.
A knight without armor in a savage land.
His fast gun for hire heeds the calling wind.
A soldier of fortune is the man called Paladin.
Paladin, Paladin Where do you roam?
Paladin, Paladin, Far, far from home.
...
Until there are actually core rules for adventuring in outer space (enough to run a campaign there), Spelljammer has not yet been rolled into core. I think there's definitely still room for a hardcover describing the ships, spheres, and monsters of the Spelljammer setting.
4e manual of the planes mentions spelljammers and astral skiffs as well as sigil and quite a few different worlds/planes.
The ironic thing is, the two worlds that my group likes the least...FR and Eberron, are the ones they published. Now I am waiting for whatever comes next.
From the rumors I've heard there are 3-4 more campaign settings battling for the right to be the next book published (in rumored order of likeliness):
Dark Sun
Planescape
Ravenloft
Spelljammer
Now, all of these, last I checked, are licenses WotC owns and would easily be able to convert to 4th Ed. I doubt we'll see Spelljammer simply because the other choices are more viable.
It's bad to listen to rumors.
Especially since, in reality, the only viable chocie of theones you listed is Dark Sun. I say that because:Planescape - Has been folded into core. Sigil is part of the 4e cosmology. Look for a big inclusion of it in the DMG2.
Ravenloft - Also folded into core. Teh domains of dread are pocket domains within the Shadowfell. Devs said watch for Dragon articles detailing various Domains.
Spelljammer - Also folded into core. You can buy Spelljammers out of the Manual of the Planes to use to travel to the different planar realms.
I see these three mentioned by a small vocal group of rabid fans. However, there's no point in making a whole setting for something that is core in every setting. I could be totally wrong on this, but I highly doubt it.
there's no point in making a whole setting for something that is core in every setting.
On the contrary: that seems like a very good idea for WotC, as every DM would have an excuse to buy the setting regardless of what setting his own campaign is in. I'm actually kinda surprised that WotC continues to put so much focus on discrete, disparate settings.
Some areas that I feel they could publish as "complete settings" where entire campaigns can take place:
1) Feywild
2) Shadowfell
3) Astral Sea
4) Elemental Chaos
5) The Abyss
6) The Nine Hells
On the contrary: that seems like a very good idea for WotC, as every DM would have an excuse to buy the setting regardless of what setting his own campaign is in. I'm actually kinda surprised that WotC continues to put so much focus on discrete, disparate settings.
Because those core elements are getting love in other products (DMG2, Dragon, MotP, etc.)
Some areas that I feel they could publish as "complete settings" where entire campaigns can take place:
1) Feywild
2) Shadowfell
3) Astral Sea
4) Elemental Chaos
5) The Abyss
6) The Nine Hells
Well, #4 will get some book love in December when The Plane Below is released. It's about the Elemental chaos (and supposedly the Abyss and Hells since they are part of said Chaos). So a complete setting? No. But they will get some detail.
Well, #4 will get some book love in December when The Plane Below is released. It's about the Elemental chaos (and supposedly the Abyss and Hells since they are part of said Chaos). So a complete setting? No. But they will get some detail.
Yeah, and that's cool... it's just that the level of detail and effort that WotC's devotes to discrete settings that will (almost) never interact seems like a waste compared to something any party could ostensibly reach.
That's what I loved about the Planescape setting: although I would never use it as the basis of my campaign, the materials were still very handy in any other campaign.
As it currently stands: just getting a map of any of Layers (much less cities) in Hell, has been pretty difficult. But had they chose to treat it as an actual setting (instead of say Eberron), we would have loads of information on the area... beneficial to a wider audience while still providing an entirely different campaign setting.
you can reach all those other settings.
Actually, I don't believe you can normally reach Eberron or Darksun from other settings (like say, Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk or Sigil).
Heck, in 3e WotC even tried to claim that Forgotten Realms' cosmology was outside of the standard one (and thus unreachable). That didn't go over well.
I weep for the future of Dungeons & Dragons.
This would not only erase any conflicts with previous printed material, but leave that material as a wellspring of ideas for future events to unfold without being bound by them.
If they do a 4e Greyhawk they should publish one book with a map and Gazetteer and that's it. The real strength of Greyhawk was that it had so few supplements that the DM's who ran it actually made it into their own world.
I always felt that too much detail merely allowed one to pick and choose: discard anything they weren't interested in, but still have resources for anything they didn't want to detail themselves (or had to detail quickly)... which I though was the primary purpose of a published setting.
I'm mean: if you just want a map and Gazetter, aren't you already set with the previously published material?
My own Greyhawk got hit by the Savage Tide at the end of 3.5e. If my 4e PC's every reach it, it'll be 104 years after the Savage Tide... perfect for a Points of Light setting (and in keeping with the Forgotten Realms timeline).
Plenty of 4th edition stuff can be used old school Great Wheel cosmology.
Nine Hells is in the Astral Sea, The Abyss is in Elemental Chaos.
- Both places have lots of nasties to bash for fun and profit.
Manual of the Planes 4th ed does mention sigil and astral skiffs etc, it does not mention Factions but there is nothing to stop you putting all the factions straight in.
Remember that Feywild and Shadowfell have their own versions of Underdark - Feydark and Shadowdark respectively.
Just with one normal world, Feywild and Shadowfell there are enough adventuring opportunities to last the Players lifetimes.
Portions of Ravenloft could fit into Shadowfell, Shadowdark or even an isolated area in Feywild.
If you don't like the 4th ed Cosmology or the Great Wheel, have the Shadowfell as the underdark, just massive caverns. And Feywild can be another continent on Oerth/Toril/Krynn etc.
No edition or campaign world was flawless or without lacking.
In the past TSR/WOTC released greyhawk material and each GM would decide what to put into his/her game, and many people use bits from various campaign worlds as they see fit.
Now WOTC is not producing specific Greyhawk material, but all the Points of Light/Generic stuff slots in very easily. It's a shame not to use it.
Has anybody attemtped conversions of classic Greyhawk characters, because I think we should try for some Greyhawk love in the next update!
ROB
What, exactly, was special about Greyhawk? What grabs you about the setting?
No, really, I'm asking honestly, because I have no idea.
IT always seemed to me to be more of the Core Fantasy, just enough Tolkein, just enough NOT Tolkein. IUZ and the Great Kingdom where great enemies for the obvious and the epic. I loved greyhawk, I dont believe that it and Forgotten Realms have much of anything in common. Truth be told, I dont see any other generic fantasy world except Greyhawk. The real beauty of it is that Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms have their own feel and themes and Greyhawk is just great for when you arent sure where to go, or know exactly where. I think Dragon and Dungeon had awesome campaigns set in Greyhawk and I dont think they would have worked any where else :D thats what makes Greyhawk so special. It has been there since nearly the start and will always be there when you want a great world with no canon to mess up the campaign.:D
Spelljammer = D&D... IN SPAAAAAACE!
Or as we used to paraphrase that Muppets tagline: "Orcs in space!" To describe Shadowrun or Spelljammer or whatever else.
ROB
1 & 2: Dark Sun and Ravenloft
This thread has already made a good case for why these two will be next up to market. I personally think Dark Sun is more likely, since Ravenloft always seemed more like a destination where the main objective was to get out alive.
3 & 4: Dragonlance and Greyhawk
They're popular. They'll be made eventually as long as the editions production life is long enough. Ignoring comments I can neither prove nor deny, I see them as unlikely for production in 2010, mostly for reasons already stated in this thread. If one of them are produced, then it will be because what they're planning for 2011 requires a lot of work.
5: Planescape/Spelljammer
They're different settings, but as someone who has never played them I'm treating them as one, and for good reason. Certain concepts in the core rules are leaving in room for all settings existing at once, just incomprehensibly separated in distance. Once we have enough settings published, they'll take some time to publish the rules for managing a cross campaign campaign, including what to do in this spaces between. If it will be a campaign book or a supplement book designed to help cross campaign interaction is unpredictable from my perspective since either could work well.
6 & 7: The Runner Ups
Yeah, remember the contest that resulted in the publishing of Eberron? WotC still has the two settings they own the copyrights to that we have no clue what-so-ever as to the content of. As far as us outsiders are concerned, they could literally be anything. One of these in the kitchen for 2011 would be my best justification for Dragonlance or Greyhawk being produced in 2010.
I see seven main high probable settings in the years to come. Most of them are a rehash, but two... have surprisingly not been mentioned at all.
2: Ravenloft
5: Planescape/Spelljammer
The reason you haven't seen these mentioned is because, as gets said over and over on the boards, these are all core now.
The chances of these former settings getting their own setting books are slim to none.
The reason you haven't seen these mentioned is because, as gets said over and over on the boards, these are all core now.
The chances of these former settings getting their own setting books are slim to none.
...those aren't the two I was referring to. They have been covered in this thread, as you said. The two Runner Ups haven't been.
Admittedly there isn't much to say about them other then the fact they exist, but if we're speculating on what they're going to produce next we should remember they have "new" products they've had on the back burners for as long as they had Eberron. We have no idea if, when, and for how long they might have moved them to the front. Either of them could be ready for a debut moving forward.
No word about it. I'd personally guess we won't see a Greyhawk revival anytime soon, since there is not too much that differentiates it from a generic high fantasy world, as far as I can tell...
It's actually fairly unique and the main reason TSR ditched it after the break up with Gary Gygax is that a court ruled that Gygaz, as the creator of the setting, was entitled to a cut of all revenues made on Greyhawk stuff. That took away any desire TSR had to publish any additional Greyhawk material.
It's actually fairly unique and the main reason TSR ditched it after the break up with Gary Gygax is that a court ruled that Gygaz, as the creator of the setting, was entitled to a cut of all revenues made on Greyhawk stuff. That took away any desire TSR had to publish any additional Greyhawk material.
Of curiousity, was the court's opinion published? Do you have a citation?
I can see where Dudelander is coming from, Greyhawk was originally setup as very undefined edges.
IIRC there was a paladin running around with six shooters he got from a boot hill game in one of the original Kuntz or Gygax games.
To me there is alot of Greyhawk stuff in 4th edition, especially in the core books.
You could easily have the Points of Light areas exactly as they are but on another continent to Flanaess. Oerth is big enough to house quite a few.
Likewise you can change the names of points of light places and gods and slot it into normal Flanaess.
However it is not what the books say, it's how you run it. You can run a very Greyhawk style of game in Points of Light, you just use Greyhawk npcs, monsters, gods etc.
Just because Bane and Zehir are known in Forgotten Realms and now the core books, doesn't mean they have to get a single mention in your campaign or the next nine campaigns. As the GM it is completely up to you what elements you put into the game.
So yes you could run a Greyhawk style game in Faerun, Points of Light or even Ravenloft.
The paladin with six guns is Murlynd, the Quasi Deity. HE's actually a Paladin/Magic-user with a focus on techno oriented magic.
Spelljamming shifted hugely in 4E. Before it was a vehicle for moving to exotic locations in outer space, and between campaign worlds without plane-crossing. Now, it IS crossing planes...a total departure, and basically limited to Epic level characters.
==Aelryinth
* Do they do it pre or post the Greyhawk wars? There are fans of both.
* Do they include the changes from Living Greyhawk? You don't want the RPGAers to seem like they wasted their time and writing (and it would set a poor precedent for Living Forgotten Realms) but many ardent Greyhawkers hated LG.
Then there are the deliberate 4e changes away from the Greyhawk style: archmages more powerful than other classes, nations that are heavily based on real world countries, heavy ties to the Great Wheel, non-cosmopolitan cities, etc.
And then there's the big question about the current races. Do they add dragonborn, goliaths, shifters, warforged, etc?
And other than the divine feats, what would be in the Greyhawk Player's Guide, since there'd be no new races/classes to add?
The reason it's possible to call Greyhawk the generic setting is that everything that it did first has been ripped off and used elsewhere. It's like calling LotR generic, because so many other books are just like it.
LotR predates Greyhawk by a solid decade and there has been Sword & Sorcerer books since the '20s. Greyhawk could easily have been generic with a twist (like Dragonlance) in that time frame.
LotR inspired, or was ripped off by, all the Generic Fantasy Novels that followed it
Greyhawk inspired, or was ripped off by, all the Generic Fantasy RPG Settings that followed it.
Now, of course, you could call each "Generic". But they weren't "Generic" when they were created.
Now, there are a bazillion epic quest novel series. Now, there are a bazillion pseudo-medieval fantasy RPG settings. But, when LotR was created (although it had predecessors), it was not a generic thing. When Greyhawk was created (although it had a predecessor) it was not a generic thing.
Greyhawk inspired, or was ripped off by, all the Generic Fantasy RPG Settings that followed it.
How so?
The Fantasy RPG settings I've seen most (GURPS Yrth, Warhammer, Faerun, etc.) seem to be loosely based on geography from our own world and contained areas for standard cultures modeled from earth's own history (medieval Europe, Arabian, roman, oriental, etc.). Greyhawk didn't seem to do that.
How so?
The Fantasy RPG settings I've seen most (GURPS Yrth, Warhammer, Faerun, etc.) seem to be loosely based on geography from our own world and contained areas for standard cultures modeled from earth's own history (medieval Europe, Arabian, roman, oriental, etc.). Greyhawk didn't seem to do that.
Then Greyhawk's not generic? I think I've missed something somewhere.
Then Greyhawk's not generic?
I couldn't say (since the definition of generic is subjective and based on context). But that's unrelated to my query.
I was merely asking how you felt the other settings ripped-off Greyhawk.
I was merely asking how you felt the other settings ripped-off Greyhawk.
If I may interject.
The Eredheil-Cinlu and Eclavdra being whole cloth put into the forgotten realms. Many creatures that were Greyhawk originals were released in 3.x in a monster book called, "The Monsters of Faerun". Ect.
Halber
The Eredheil-Cinlu and Eclavdra being whole cloth put into the forgotten realms. Many creatures that were Greyhawk originals were released in 3.x in a monster book called, "The Monsters of Faerun". Ect.
That seems more a case of early D&D material inspiring later D&D material, rather than "Greyhawk inspired, or was ripped off by, all the Generic Fantasy RPG Settings that followed it."
Faerun definitely (and purposefully) used core D&D materials, like the races and monsters. Same with the other D&D settings, but I don't think that is what Kaldric was referring to (... if he was, then disregard my query).
Well, if everything that made Greyhawk unique is taken and used in other D&D settings, it's not surprising that people see Greyhawk as generic, I suppose.
I beleive you are still missing something. Most races and monsters were present before Greyhawk, in Blackmoor. They are considered core D&D materials (which Greyhawk added to), and future D&D settings are expected to use them. This is all on purpose.
Outside of those materials, other D&D settings do not seem to resemble Greyhawk anymore than they resemble Blackmoor or other D&D settings.
And Fantasy RPG settings outside of D&D do not seem to borrow from Greyhawk at all.
fwiw: Greyhawk is called 'generic' mainly because it was presented as the basic, core, generic setting for 3e. In 4e the generic setting (Nentir Vale, et al) is less fleshed out.
I beleive you are still missing something. Most races and monsters were present before Greyhawk, in Blackmoor. They are considered core D&D materials (which Greyhawk added to), and future D&D settings are expected to use them. This is all on purpose.
Okay. I'd disagree. I don't think Greyhawk was ever intended to be the base setting for D&D. I think it just ended up that way, because everything that was cool and different in the setting ended up getting taken and used in other settings. You say that was intentional, I call it "inspiring" or "ripping off", with ripping off just being a mean way to say "inspired by".
Here's a useful, and fact-checked, excerpt from Wikipedia:
The original Blackmoor product was published by Tactical Studies Rules (TSR) in 1975, as the second supplement to D&D (the first being Greyhawk). The booklet was named for the original role-playing campaign world by Dave Arneson, who also wrote this booklet.[1] It added rules, monsters, treasure, and the first published role-playing game adventure, "Temple of the Frog".[2] Despite the name, however, it did not include any information on the setting itself.
I seem to remember the original D&D stuff as being essentially without a setting. It was where the Points of Light idea came from, I'm pretty sure. Greyhawk was the first published setting. Later, as it was expanded, had modules created for it, etc., it had tons of cool stuff that was, initially, campaign-setting-specific material. Much of this material, the Drow included, was then used in other settings.
I suppose it's all a matter of your point of view. I see Drow as being created for the Greyhawk setting, and then taken and used in Forgotten Realms.
I see the same thing happening with Warforged. Created for Eberron, they're now being genericized. Taking something that made Eberron unique, and making it generic, like they did with pretty much everything from Greyhawk.
Once again, the main point of disagreement is that I don't believe Greyhawk was ever intended to be the generic, base setting. It became that, because other writers used it as a grab bag of stuff for their own settings. I think this contains a lesson for other, later settings. They're making everything core... which means less is special, specific to a campaign world anymore. Which tends to lead to a feeling of everything being sort of generic.
Here's a useful, and fact-checked, excerpt from Wikipedia
Although that particular supplement was published after the Greyhawk supplement, the Blackmoor setting actually pre-dated Greyhawk. It was created in 1970 and was even published in 1972. See here and here.
It became that, because other writers used it as a grab bag of stuff for their own settings.
I contend that Greyhawk (for a time) was the most common, published setting for D&D, and added to D&D material, which other D&D writers were expected to use as a grab bag of stuff for their own settings.
Perhaps we are just quibbling over terminology. If by "Greyhawk inspired, or was ripped off by, all the Generic Fantasy RPG Settings that followed it" you actually meant "Greyhawk material is used in all the D&D Settings that followed it", I agree completely.
I don't, however, remember a time when we considered Greyhawk the base setting, until D&D 3.0
I seem to remember the base setting was just... nothing, really. What is now called Points of Light. I think it eventually became Mystara.
I don't, however, remember a time when we considered Greyhawk the base setting
By 'base setting' I actually meant a published, commonly used setting to use as a base for one's own games. Of those published settings, Greyhawk was the most common. If there was a 'standard' setting, Greyhawk was essentially it.
By 'base setting' I actually meant a published, commonly used setting to use as a base for one's own games. Of those published settings, Greyhawk was the most common. If there was a 'standard' setting, Greyhawk was essentially it.
I believe, personally, that the 'base setting' was no setting at all. Just the points of light around each non-setting-specific module.
If you wanted to play Greyhawk, you generally picked up the setting specific materials.
I believe, personally, that the 'base setting' was no setting at all.
Since it was causing confusion, I have removed the term 'base' from my earlier post.
I'd say that it was as much of a "non-core" setting as Forgotten Realms - that's how it felt to me at the time.
You seem to be saying, correct me if I'm wrong, that it was more of a default setting.
I think both points of view are viable. The writers of 3E certainly thought Greyhawk was an appropriate default setting. The writers of 4E thought that the non-setting was the appropriate default.
Every other setting tries to put its own little or big twist on the base D&D elves, dwarves, artifacts, or what have you. Greyhawk is the only setting to have things exactly like the base. Hence, it has the tendency to feel more generic than any other setting.
Which books do you mean? Oriental Adventures obviously isn't one of the ones you mean. Fiend Folio?
The Players Handbook, Dungeon Master Guide, and Monster Manual come to mind. Here is one example for each:
Players Handbook: Tenser's Floating Disk is a spell. Tenser is a wizard in Greyhawk.
Dungeon Master Guide: Vecna's hand and eye are artifacts. Vecna is a lich in Greyhawk.
Monster Manual: Elves subraces are high, grey, sylvan, and dark. Greyhawk's elven subraces are high, grey, sylvan, and dark.
No other campaign setting comes remotely as close to mirroring the non-setting specific books as Greyhawk. For instance, you will hear folks claim that Eberron was specifically designed for the 3.X rule set. However, to play in Eberron, one must basically ignore the PC race descriptions in the Players Handbook in lieu of the Eberronian descriptions. Greyhawk's PC races are exactly as described in the 3.X Players Handbook.
I'd always assumed that was because Greyhawk was the only campaign setting that existed as a complete setting when those books came out.
Yep, pretty much coincides perfectly with my theory.
But I don't think that's true. But I do think, because Greyhawk was first, and it got looted for the core books, and then for the other settings, your theory could explain why so many people see it as generic, but I see it as particularly and uniquely Greyhawk. Because I was playing before AD&D, before Greyhawk was looted for the AD&D books and Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance.
your theory could explain why so many people see it as generic, but I see it as particularly and uniquely Greyhawk.
Ironically, those concepts need not be mutually exclusive. The 'generic' D&D setting can be unique.
Ironically, those concepts need not be mutually exclusive. The 'generic' D&D setting can be unique.
Mm. Connotations of the term 'generic' are generally negative. Most people who call Greyhawk 'generic' are objecting to its inclusion as supported material. Because it's too 'generic'. This frosts my pastry. I don't see it as 'generic'. There's tons of stuff (geography, place names, cultural prevalence of 'adventurer' as a common and respected profession) that I think of as Greyhawk-specific.
Ah, well.
Mm. Connotations of the term 'generic' are generally negative.
I'd view the term as a positive in this case. The fact that it was completely compatible with the 'standard' (i.e. generic) rules was a good thing.
It doesn't bother me too much, I guess. I'm still putting my 4th edition campaign in Greyhawk. Thinking of converting Scourge of the Slave Lords. They already did a skill challenge to simulate moving around Suderham.
I'd view the term as a positive in this case. The fact that it was completely compatible with the 'standard' (i.e. generic) rules was a good thing.
I am in complete agreement. It has always mildly annoyed me when settings alter the standard for seemingly no other reason than to alter it.
I am currently running a Greyhawk 4E campaign set across the mountains outside of the Flanaess. I used an Internet map based on the early Dragon Magazine article with the world map and some information from the Third Edition Era miniature game. I redid the map somewhat and I have placed Nentir Vale on the map and since my characters are heroic levels they haven't poked their noses outside the vale yet. But they will be soon.
Good Gaming.
I am a big fan of Greyhawk. I see chances of it being done for 4E as very low. Since there are no new races and likely no new needed classes as some have pointed out, Wotc could easily do a Dragon Magazine/Dungeon Magazine combo month and detail the main points of playing Greyhawk with 4E rules.
Not a bad observation. However, it doesn't need to have anything that is specific to Greyhawk, really. Look at the FRPG. Drow and Swordmages? Drow were not unique to the FR and Swordmages could have been put anywhere. They can put any classes they are wanting to do in a Greyhawk PG when it comes right down to it.
that's the thing. if i want to play "pseudo-medieval europe" i know what my options are and i have enough knowledge of the various popular settings out there to know what i want from it.
Newbie gamer A, however? does he really need 7 twists on "pseudo-medieval europe"? no.
i understand that different people have their own preferences for settings, but if you want to grab a wider audience, you need to branch out with unique (or at least different) settings.
FR = pseudo-medieval europe
Eberron = Magepunk/tech
Ravenloft = pseudo-medieval europe horror
Dark Sun = Post-apocalyptic survival and psionics
Spelljammer = D&D... IN SPAAAAAACE!
Planescape = all of the above
all those settings are different enough to give a newbie some variety. if they want to look at other similiar settings, i'm sure someone will point them to "Setting Y" and get the information that way.
Ravenloft varies widely in technological developement. Some domains are in the stone age ( Subua, for example) and some are in the Renaissance (Mordent, for example) everything in between. Medieval and Chivalric are probably the most common though.
What, exactly, was special about Greyhawk? What grabs you about the setting?
No, really, I'm asking honestly, because I have no idea.
I think GH is the default setting as it was the first. However, I think FR is the most popular.
It's got Saltmarsh, the Tomb of Horrors, the Barrier Peaks, the Vault of the Drow and the Temple of Elemental Evil. It's got the Slave Lords of the Pomarj. It's got White Plume Mountain, and the ruins of Castle Greyhawk. It's got Mordenkainen and Tenser and Bigby and Robilard and many more.
Also, it doesn't have the gimmicky stuff that the other settings have tacked on to try to make themselves seem less like pale imitations of the original published setting. Lizard riding, cannibal, shadow, and klepto halflings, for instance.
Know what grabs me about Greyhawk?
It's got Saltmarsh, the Tomb of Horrors, the Barrier Peaks, the Vault of the Drow and the Temple of Elemental Evil. It's got the Slave Lords of the Pomarj. It's got White Plume Mountain, and the ruins of Castle Greyhawk. It's got Mordenkainen and Tenser and Bigby and Robilard and many more.
It certainly has some nice adventure modules that go along with it.
It certainly has some nice adventure modules that go along with it.
You totally missed the point of his post. Either on purpose or because you just don't know, doesn't matter.The point he;s making is that Greyhawk is THE classic. Not only is it classic, but there's more in D&D that is iconic from Greyhawk than any other setting. Sure, the FR has Drizzt and Planescape had Sigil and the Lady of Pain, etc., etc.
However, those things he mentioned, everyone knows. Everyone has heard of the Tomb of Horrors. Everyone has heard of the plight of Geoff as they went Against the Giants. Everyone knows Mordenkainen, Tenser, Bigby, Rary, Iuz, Vecna, etc.
D&D just wouldn't be D&D without Greyhawk.
The point he;s making is that Greyhawk is THE classic. Not only is it classic, but there's more in D&D that is iconic from Greyhawk than any other setting. Sure, the FR has Drizzt and Planescape had Sigil and the Lady of Pain, etc., etc.
However, those things he mentioned, everyone knows. Everyone has heard of the Tomb of Horrors. Everyone has heard of the plight of Geoff as they went Against the Giants. Everyone knows Mordenkainen, Tenser, Bigby, Rary, Iuz, Vecna, etc.
D&D just wouldn't be D&D without Greyhawk.
True enough, like I said it is the default setting. That all goes along with that.
Greyhawk is no longer the default, to state that is simply mistaken. D&D has an official default setting, Greyhawk is not it.
I'd like to see the Circle of Eight get statted out, the Valley of the Mage be detailed, and an organizational write-up on the Scarlet Brotherhood and maybe an Iuz cult.
Also, one of the things I like about Greyhawk is how any research I do on DNDs history turns into a research project on Greyhawk. Look at all the fluff articles on Canonfire - tons of research and great works created around a core setting that fits together as a cohesive whole.
I always found the realms of FR more like episodes of Star Trek - unrelated to one another in culture and purpose. Everything in Greyhawk seemed more connected.
ROB
Many other settings had way more. FR was the worst... everybody and their brother was epic level, except for the PCs. So when you were tasked to do somethign in Greyhawk and you rose in level you truly began to feel as if saving the world meant something. In the FR, for example, it felt like those sending you on your quest just couldn't be bothered. After all, why would such powerful people as Elminster, the Simbul, Blackstaff, etc., etc. need adventurers to do anythign when combiend they could probably destroy the universe?
http://www.geocities.com/duicarthan.geo/npcz/npcz.html
I would love to start seeing some 4E conversions of these folks. Once I get Char Gen working on my Mac, I might give it a go.
[Edit] Ooo - here is a great source for the NPCs to create for 4E Greyhawk:
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/duicarthan/npcz.html
Click on Major Personages, or on the list from the City of Greyhawk.
ROB
Magic flowed freely in Greyhawk. There was plenty of fantastic stuff happening.
The difference is that every little village didn't have an archmage in residence, or an epic level fighter, as it is in Faerun, where even a little shopkeeper might be capable of kicking your 15th level wizard's ass.
So it just *seems* like there was less magic.
Magic flowed freely in Greyhawk. There was plenty of fantastic stuff happening.
The difference is that every little village didn't have an archmage in residence, or an epic level fighter, as it is in Faerun, where even a little shopkeeper might be capable of kicking your 15th level wizard's ass.
So it just *seems* like there was less magic.
It was just more realistic. In real life where do you find all the large bankers and corporate HQs? Why in the big cities even though small towns might have a few decent sized regional companies. It just makes more sense that the rich and powerful go to places where they can best put their skills to use rather then living in some podunk village. I've never liked the FR because it was just so unrealistic about everything while Greyhawk simply was set up more logically.
While reading the TSR wiki I came across this quote
"Ryan Dancey, Vice President of Wizards of the Coast, believed that TSR failed because of "...a near total inability to listen to its customers, hear what they were saying, and make changes to make those customers happy.”
I would say that if the Greyhawk community wants to see the setting updated to 4e they should continue to complain loudly. If you complain loud enough and long enough you just might see a 4e update to Greyhawk assuming WOTC listens to their own advice.
Orlane has made it into Dragon this month, although technically it was retconned into Greyhawk by LG Keoland Triad. They hoovered up as many old modules as they could.
Keoland is it? Thanks for that.
Was going to look up where best to place this but this has saved me some Google hours.
ghmaps.net/maps.html
Orlane has been placed in the northwest of the country but I can't remember if the village is within the borders of Gran March or Keoland.
N1 - Orlane is between the Dim Forest and the Rushmors (hex K5-113) The cult`s complex is in the Rushmoors (hex H5-112)
Hope they all get finished.
Thanks for the useful info on locations. This is not a module I've used before but might see if it's worth a go in 4E.
Orlane has made it into Dragon this month, although technically it was retconned into Greyhawk by LG Keoland Triad. They hoovered up as many old modules as they could.
No it wasn't retconned into Greyhawk, it was always there. The original module was set in Greyhawk.
Now Keep on the Borderlands and the Isle of Dread were "hoovered up" into Greyhawk from Mystara.
But then again there were many Greyhawk things that have been "hoovered up" into the Forgotten Realms, as well as Nerath.
Halber
What, exactly, was special about Greyhawk? What grabs you about the setting?
No, really, I'm asking honestly, because I have no idea.
For many of us, the appeal is that Greyhawk is the original fantasy world for the game. All the old adventure modules are set there--- The Slaverlords series, Against the Giants, Temple of Elemental Evil, Greyhawk Ruins, the original Drow series (including Queen of the Demonweb Pits) Keep on the Borderlands (set in the southwest Yeomanry) and others. There is enough material to have a really fun campaign, without being bogged down by "oh, in this novel this guy did this, and in this one the other guy changed to chaotic evil, so you can't play him this way..." something I HATE seeing when I've played Dragonlance or Forgotten Realms. Too many novels that some players think they have to shove into the game, half of which I personally think are just someone else's campaign written into a novel.
Another benefit... access to all the Players Handbook spells--- all those 'named' spells (Melf's, Bigby's, Mordenkainen's, Tenser's, etc.)--- those wizards are from Greyhawk! Some magic items from the DMG are from Greyhawk, like Boccob's Bleesed Book (Boccob is god of Knowledge and magic). Many other campaign settings restrict spells and items like those I named.
Halflings are halflings, not Kinder (3rd edition messed with halflings some, making them nomadic bandits... I don't like the change and don't follow it.) Gnomes are gnomes, not tinkers. You can play Half-orcs, but not in Dragonlance- there's no orcs.
The villains are EVIL. The Scarlet Brotherhood actually follows the basic creed of Nazi Germany of the 1930s and 40's, but smarter and more patiently. Suel humans are seen as the only worthy race and all others are to be enslaved or exterminated including the elves. Forced breeding programs, forced sterilization, genetic experiments, open warfare, subversive treaties, etc etc. Iuz the Evil wants to turn anyone who doesn't worship him into an undead creature. His chief lieutenant is a powerful vampire, and he uses demons by the thousands (until they were driven off.) The Slavelords are allied with the Scarlet Brotherhood. The slavers are building an army of brainwashed and drugged slaves, including children. ("Why's my little brother carrying a sword and working with the Slavers?")
Pick a compass direction and start walking... sooner or later you'll run into an evil-dominated region and you can start hacking/spying/etc. Or join them.
Default is the points of light setting. No country names, no history, no groups. Greyhawk is no longer the default, to state that is simply mistaken. D&D has an official default setting, Greyhawk is not it. I'd like to see the Circle of Eight get statted out, the Valley of the Mage be detailed, and an organizational write-up on the Scarlet Brotherhood and maybe an Iuz cult.
If you are willing to do the conversions on stats, all of the things you named were written up in second edition campaign books. The book names are: Vale of the Mage; Iuz the Evil; City of Skulls; The Scarlet Brotherhood; Return of the Eight; The Marklands; The Adventure Begins; Player's Guide. You can find many of them on ebay pretty cheap, but a few are somewhat rare and expensive (as gaming books go.) If the rumors are true about resetting timelines back to pre-Living Greyhawk material, then basically the timeline is being reset to these books plus a couple of years. (some are set in slightly different years, all between 585 and 591.)
One of the things I loved about Greyhawk was that most rulers were mid-teens in level. (speaking of the old 20 level scheme) There were very few "Epic" NPCs. The circle of 8, Turosh Mak, Robillard & Rary, Canon Hazen. I could add Iuz, but he was a demigod, so he sort of goes beyond levels. Those are all the Epics I can think of off the top of my head. Many other settings had way more. FR was the worst... everybody and their brother was epic level, except for the PCs. So when you were tasked to do somethign in Greyhawk and you rose in level you truly began to feel as if saving the world meant something. In the FR, for example, it felt like those sending you on your quest just couldn't be bothered. After all, why would such powerful people as Elminster, the Simbul, Blackstaff, etc., etc. need adventurers to do anythign when combiend they could probably destroy the universe?
In second edition, Turrosh Mak is fighter 11/ assassin 9, other Slavelords in the Pomarj are between 9th and 14th level (or about that, I'm too lazy to pull out the book and check) and in the Return of the Eight none of the Circle of Eight are above 20th level (mostly 14th to 17th.) In 3rd ed. Mak is a fighter 16th, and the others aren't listed as much higher than second ed. You're exactly on point about there not being a ton of epic-level characters, just Mordenkanen and a couple of others. Hell, the head of the Scarlet Brotherhood is a monk of about 14th level, I think (maybe 16th.)
Orlane has made it into Dragon this month, although technically it was retconned into Greyhawk by LG Keoland Triad. They hoovered up as many old modules as they could.
No it wasn't retconned into Greyhawk, it was always there. The original module was set in Greyhawk.
Now Keep on the Borderlands and the Isle of Dread were "hoovered up" into Greyhawk from Mystara.
But then again there were many Greyhawk things that have been "hoovered up" into the Forgotten Realms, as well as Nerath.
Halber
The Return to the Keep on the Borderlands, from second edition AD&D, is the original keep set 10 or 15 years later, and located in southwestern Yeomanry. It started in the Grand Duchy of Karameikos (the Basic D&D game), got placed in Yeomanry, and based on what you said I'm guessing the Keep got moved to Mystra for a while before returning to Greyhawk? How many times can one isolated fort and a bunch of caves get moved anyway?
Default is the points of light setting. No country names, no history, no groups. Greyhawk is no longer the default, to state that is simply mistaken. D&D has an official default setting, Greyhawk is not it. I'd like to see the Circle of Eight get statted out, the Valley of the Mage be detailed, and an organizational write-up on the Scarlet Brotherhood and maybe an Iuz cult.
If you are willing to do the conversions on stats, all of the things you named were written up in second edition campaign books. The book names are: Vale of the Mage; Iuz the Evil; City of Skulls; The Scarlet Brotherhood; Return of the Eight; The Marklands; The Adventure Begins; Player's Guide. You can find many of them on ebay pretty cheap, but a few are somewhat rare and expensive (as gaming books go.) If the rumors are true about resetting timelines back to pre-Living Greyhawk material, then basically the timeline is being reset to these books plus a couple of years. (some are set in slightly different years, all between 585 and 591.)
You can also get Ivid the Undying for free as a download since it was never published in hard copy and instead released by WotC as the unpublished manuscript (and in a few Dragon articles).
Sadly, the point about the default setting has become a little more tragic, certianly from my point of view, as so many classic Greyhawk settings have now been placed in the Nerath / Nentir Vale points of light setting. For me, this confirms that no Greyhawk setting will be published for 4E (if we needed any more proof).
And Iuz himself - he is well within the reach of a 30th level party. The fact that there aren't any 30th level characters in Greyhawk is also interesting - it means that the party that makes it there will be unique. They could join the demigods and quasideities, like Heward, and Kelanen.
Also, one of the things I like about Greyhawk is how any research I do on DNDs history turns into a research project on Greyhawk. Look at all the fluff articles on Canonfire - tons of research and great works created around a core setting that fits together as a cohesive whole.
I always found the realms of FR more like episodes of Star Trek - unrelated to one another in culture and purpose. Everything in Greyhawk seemed more connected.
ROB
The old 2nd edition material explicitly states that DM's should not allow characters to run up north and try to kill Iuz, because he's a god. I personally believe that if someone wants to kill a divine being, it should be for epic level characters AND it should take dozens of game sessions to research how, before you can even try. The Ruins of Greyhawk adventure, edition 3.5, gives an ending with a possibility of stealing Iuz's divine power. (You get about 1/10th of a second to try.) The real question is this--- when you destroy that divine being, do you get their power and take over their portfolio? "what do ya mean, my paladin is now the god of disease, fungus, broken stereos and meth addicts???" That is, of course, a decision strictly reserved for each DM's game.
However, as you said, the characters who do reach that sort of level are very, very unique within Greyhawk and should be given the chance to perform something really big, like destroy an evil deity.