Adventure-wise, they've already said that they will revisit the GH classics (but perhaps treated more as "generic" adventures) and I imagine that could happen as early as next year. But again we don't know for sure.
Well, they confirmed at I-Con that Greyhawk will see support in 4e, but at the same time reiterated their intention to produce 1 campaign setting per year. So... 2010 at the earliest before we see a new sourcebook.
Adventure-wise, they've already said that they will revisit the GH classics (but perhaps treated more as "generic" adventures) and I imagine that could happen as early as next year. But again we don't know for sure.
Whoa... they said there would be Greyhawk support? IIRC, at DDXP, they tried to dodge any and all Greyhawk questions that were asked...
When are we looking at some 4e Greyhawk books? For some reason I thought WoTC was publishing some in late 2008 – 2009.
None of the rest of us have heard any such rumors. I know there are adventures planned for later in 2008, and the Draconomicon, and some books on Martial, Divine, and Arcane Power, but nothing on Greyhawk.
ROB
Whoa... they said there would be Greyhawk support? IIRC, at DDXP, they tried to dodge any and all Greyhawk questions that were asked...
It's hard to blame them with the crowd they had though. What honest answer could they have given and avoided a lynching? ;)
More seriously, it's fairly likely that they made the decision between the two events...assuming that the reporting is accurate.
Space
"Bill Slavicsek mentioned those by name as what we'd see after Forgotten Realms and Eberron were out. Greyhawk is a definate, he said they were working on the books for it, and Dark Sun is one that he mentioned "we would see down the line". I don't know if he slipped up or if he wasn't 100% sure, but he sounded pretty confident."
Oh and by the way, Greyhawk, Ravenloft and Dark Sun are definately getting 4e campaigns down the line as well as Planescape and Spelljammer (which they just started working out). They assured us that we can look forward to most of the old campaign setting being remade, and mentioned the above by name.
Should make some happy at least!
You can find the actual thread here.
This player talked to the Devs at GAMA a few days ago and had the following to say, I know it is vague but it's something...
Should make some happy at least!
You can find the actual thread here.
The only other better news I would like to hear is that they will also release a Birthright setting.
I would buy the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, and Birthright (if they make it) setting's.
According to Chris Sims (in this thread on ENWorld), WotC is taking a 3-books-and-done approach with its settings. So the 3 FR books this year is it for FR, and next year's 3 Eberron books is it for Eberron. Greyhawk was mentioned in the thread as being in line for 4E treatment, but Chris said he hasn't seen the list of settings that will be done.
From post #23:
The three books are: Campaign Guide (DM), Player's Guide (players, and DM for good measure), and Adventure (everyone). Check the 2008 Wizards D&D Product Release Schedule for FR game product.
I'll confirm this with me taskmasters later today, but I'm about 99.9% sure I'm correct. I worked on FR and helped kick off Eberron by doing art orders for the book covers. I'll also be working on Eberron Campaign Guide and the adventure.
From post #66:
100% sure and fact checked. Three books and out.
As an aside, the campaign book is designed so it isn't necessary for players to read it. That's so DMs can keep secrets if they want to do so. That said, players can read it for ideas for PC backgrounds and just more info on the world in general......no planescape?
I haven't seen this mythic "list" (so I probably shouldn't have implied there is one). That said, it would be wild speculation to say any specific setting is on the list or off it because it wasn't included in this off-hand announcement.
Since I haven't seen the list, I'm hoping for Dark Sun myself.
(Khur is Chris Sims.)
* Some elements that WotC feels never worked well will be marginalized or replaced.
* Some elements that are prominent in 4th edition that weren't before will be introduced by any means necessary.
* Something you personally like will get the axe. Almost 100% guaranteed.
I don't think that this sort of creative destruction is a particularly bad thing, even though some of the things I like about Greyhawk will likely change in ways I don't like. I've grown close to Nyrond through Living Greyhawk, and Akoss's changes more or less blew it up, for example. That's not fun for me, but it is probably good for Akoss's setting overall.
Continued support for Greyhawk will likely be a net plus, but don't fool yourselves into thinking that it'll be a painless procedure.
I believe that the powers-that-be have announced that the new 4E core cosmology will become the Realms cosmology, but Eberron's is different and I would expect it to stay that way. I wonder if prying Greyhawk out of the Great Wheel is something we should expect. (It wouldn't necessarily have to happen, but they'll have to do something to explain the loss of the ethereal plane, the addition of the Feywild, the new assortment of monsters (succubi as devils, angels of all alignments, archons as elementals instead of angels, etc.) and all the other assorted changes to the core rules. To me, that seems like a bigger job than explaining dwarven wizards....)
Those who are getting excited about continuing support for Greyhawk in 4th edition should keep in mind the fact that Greyhawk will probably receive a treatment similar to that of the 4th edition Forgotten Realms. If that happens...
* Some elements that WotC feels never worked well will be marginalized or replaced.
* Some elements that are prominent in 4th edition that weren't before will be introduced by any means necessary.
* Something you personally like will get the axe. Almost 100% guaranteed.
I don't think that this sort of creative destruction is a particularly bad thing, even though some of the things I like about Greyhawk will likely change in ways I don't like.
This is one of the reasons why I'm hoping they'll move the timeline forward so that it gives 4e Greyhawk some breathing room for certain changes to at least come across more naturally - introducing Tieflings and Dragonborn for example. It also gives you that psychological space so that if you want to play GH of a previous era, you're not "butting heads" so to speak...
I've grown close to Nyrond through Living Greyhawk, and Akoss's changes more or less blew it up, for example. That's not fun for me, but it is probably good for Akoss's setting overall.
Yeah, I kinda turned Nyrond into an "adventurer's playground", gearing it around Heroic/Low-Paragon tier gaming. Nyrond was already in pretty poor shape so I just gave it that final nudge over the cliff. ;) The idea of having a "shattered" Nyrond is so that PCs can be directly involved in either picking up the pieces again and reshape the nation as they would like it to be... or help the Greyhawk Lords take it over. :D
But I agree there is no way to make everyone happy. There are people who aren't happy with the way things are now, they'll be people unhappy no matter what they end up changing.
My overriding hope is that they will do all they can to leverage GH's strengths. They have the best villains in the game just sitting on the sidelines, lots of well-known artifacts and relics just waiting for the right hook and perhaps the most widely recognized adventure locales in all of D&D ripe for a 4e makeover...
I wonder if prying Greyhawk out of the Great Wheel is something we should expect. (It wouldn't necessarily have to happen, but they'll have to do something to explain the loss of the ethereal plane, the addition of the Feywild, the new assortment of monsters (succubi as devils, angels of all alignments, archons as elementals instead of angels, etc.) and all the other assorted changes to the core rules. To me, that seems like a bigger job than explaining dwarven wizards....)
Oh, I think we can safely assume that Greyhawk will adopt the new cosmology. I don't see that really having that great an impact on the setting. There are still demons from the Abyss, devils from Hell and Celestials never bothered with Greyhawk anyway. :D All our favorite fiend lords are still running around, so you're 94% of the way there already!
Oh, I think we can safely assume that Greyhawk will adopt the new cosmology. I don't see that really having that great an impact on the setting. There are still demons from the Abyss, devils from Hell and Celestials never bothered with Greyhawk anyway. :D All our favorite fiend lords are still running around, so you're 94% of the way there already!
I also think that the practical differences between the Great Wheel and the new cosmology are overstated. As you point out, most of the areas in which the Great Wheel actually touched on the Greyhawk setting could be replicated easily with the new cosmology. The Astral Sea can accomodate almost anything that might otherwise be missing, and the shakeup in the Elemental Chaos doesn't change things that much because no one really went to the Elemental Planes very often. (Doing so was a great way to die!)
The Great Wheel did lose a lot of its core concepts, but many of those were philosophical in nature...the symmetry of the planes based on alignments and such. Those rarely impacted the stories told in Greyhawk heavily, and so they're not that big of a loss.
The changes needed to bring in Dragonborn and Tieflings in large numbers plus the changes to remove unwanted segments (some of the goofy nation names?) of Greyhawk will be the biggest areas of movement. Probably. It's hard to tell until we actually see which way Wizards of the Coast goes with it.
The changes needed to bring in Dragonborn and Tieflings in large numbers plus the changes to remove unwanted segments (some of the goofy nation names?) of Greyhawk will be the biggest areas of movement. Probably. It's hard to tell until we actually see which way Wizards of the Coast goes with it.
Dragonborn might be hard to explain, perhaps, but Tieflings?
We just got done with half the Northern lands being overrun by Iuz and his fiend-led armies. Then a decade after that of the survivors of the Shield Lands and others trying to reclaim their homes, probably seething with fiend-taint. if you look at Greyhawk history in that light, Tieflings popping up all over the place really isn't that hard to believe.
I also think that the practical differences between the Great Wheel and the new cosmology are overstated. As you point out, most of the areas in which the Great Wheel actually touched on the Greyhawk setting could be replicated easily with the new cosmology. The Astral Sea can accomodate almost anything that might otherwise be missing, and the shakeup in the Elemental Chaos doesn't change things that much because no one really went to the Elemental Planes very often. (Doing so was a great way to die!)
The Great Wheel did lose a lot of its core concepts, but many of those were philosophical in nature...the symmetry of the planes based on alignments and such. Those rarely impacted the stories told in Greyhawk heavily, and so they're not that big of a loss.
The thing to remember is that the Great Wheel was just a model for the planes. The planes themselves wouldn't have to change a whole lot, really. The islands-in-the-Astral-Sea model is just another way to visualize what is really an abstract concept.
The changes to alignment and the monsters will be a bigger deal. And so how will those be explained? Will Greyhawk suffer its own version of the spellplague? Or is there going to be a serious retcon (since there's no line of novels to be affected), to the effect of "things have always been this way." Maybe a parallel-universe Greyhawk? (Mordenkainen WITHOUT the goatee?)
I think it's safe to say that the level of incompatibility that Greyhawk has with 4th edition is less than that of the Forgotten Realms and more than that of Eberron though. Very large parts of Oerth can easily handle 4th edition, but there are a couple snags. At least Greyhawk doesn't have the Weave describing how magic works throughout an endless series of products.
A Greyhawk setting would be really cool to play in with the integrated epic tier of play though. Akoss is right about Greyhawk's villians, I think. In the Forgotten Realms, the names that stand out the most are those of the good guys. In Greyhawk, the names that stand out the most are those of the bad guys. (And the Circle of Eight, but they don't count as good or bad.)
Obviously, it's too early for anyone outside of WotC to know. Quite possibly they aren't even thinking about it yet...
If not yet, it'll crop up soon as apparently they're already working on the GH books...
I think it's safe to say that the level of incompatibility that Greyhawk has with 4th edition is less than that of the Forgotten Realms and more than that of Eberron though. Very large parts of Oerth can easily handle 4th edition, but there are a couple snags. At least Greyhawk doesn't have the Weave describing how magic works throughout an endless series of products.
Indeed. Greyhawk doesn't really require an event to change how magic works in 4e, you could quite easily just handwave the changes. But if I were to guess, I think WotC will incorporate some overarching reason why magic has changed.
I don't even see the alignment changes having much impact, infact I see the changes actually helping with the incorporation of having most of the populace being unaligned...
A Greyhawk setting would be really cool to play in with the integrated epic tier of play though. Akoss is right about Greyhawk's villians, I think. In the Forgotten Realms, the names that stand out the most are those of the good guys. In Greyhawk, the names that stand out the most are those of the bad guys. (And the Circle of Eight, but they don't count as good or bad.)
Yeah, I'm also really happy that epic level play has been incorporated into the core rules. GH has enough uber villains to run a whole host of EL campaigns and a long history of "mortals who done good" becoming quasi-deities, hero-deities, demigods and so on...
I don't even see the alignment changes having much impact, infact I see the changes actually helping with the incorporation of having most of the populace being unaligned...
Mechanically, I suppose there's no difference between "unaligned" and "neutral," but I'm going to have a hard time ever picturing Mordenkainen as just "unaligned." To me, "unaligned" means that you haven't picked a side. "Neutral," however, can also mean that you have made a choice, and it isn't Good or Evil. Like I said, no real mechanical difference, but in terms of storytelling and character motivations, it can make a big difference.
Mechanically, I suppose there's no difference between "unaligned" and "neutral," but I'm going to have a hard time ever picturing Mordenkainen as just "unaligned." To me, "unaligned" means that you haven't picked a side. "Neutral," however, can also mean that you have made a choice, and it isn't Good or Evil. Like I said, no real mechanical difference, but in terms of storytelling and character motivations, it can make a big difference.
Yeah, I can certainly see how "unaligned" isn't exactly the best way to describe someone with a Moorcockian sense of Neutrality like Mordenkainen (and by extension my own "Lords of the Balance").
However, those with that particular outlook (looking out for the cosmic balance) are rather few and far between, highlighted by a very small group of very powerful people. They might be better represented by a Paragon Path/Epic Destiny...
Maybe a parallel-universe Greyhawk? (Mordenkainen WITHOUT the goatee?)
-Ultimate Greyhawk!:D Have a new Circle of Eight being formed, but secretly following Asmodeus! Using the PC's as pawns!:D
18D
:lightbulb 
:evillaugh