Grattz is an intermediate Deity, right?
Graz'zt was a demon prince, equivalent to a lesser god in 1e. In Gygax's novels he was a patron of the drow and a member of a demonic race called the Abbat-dolor, who were basically 8-fingered demonic drow. 2e & 3e made him some kind of high level monster but far less than a god.
His 4e stats have just been posted. In 4e he is now a former devil who conquered a few layers of the Abyss and transofrmed into a demon over time - which I like as an origin story. I don't know if he is a god per se, although Asmodeus is being treated as a god. Given that Baazebub is worshipped as a deity in the Great Kingdom, he might also be treated as a god.
I'm not sure how Iuz will be statted in 4e but we can hope that he will be done 'officially' at some point. So far we have Orcus, Yeenoghu, and Grazz't to compare, with Demogorgon looking likely in MM2. As a demi-god, he might be treated as an Exarch in 4e, although they usually have a patron deity it seems.
Iuz may just end up being a high HD challenge as an 'Immortal Humanoid' with powers based on his spittle, huge sword, assassin skills, clerical skills etc.
Any volunteers?
Your pcs don't really want to be fighting either of them! The Boneheart are bad enough!
As an aside I can't recall if Iuz was a demi-god prior to his captivity by Zagyg. Have a look in the recent Greyhawk Ruins adventure book featuring the 'Godcatcher Trap'. It may be that the quasi-deity learned a few thigs from his captivity and the Soul Husks are his version of Zagyg's apotheosis machine.
As for Iuz's power, it is unknown if he was a demigod when captured, or not. It is implied that he was not *known* to be a demigod when captured. But could have been - since Zagyg supposedly captured "demigods" not aspiring demigods. However, an interview with Gygax was out where he said he used demigods as a non-specific term, and had in mind such luminaries as Heironeous, Hextor, Pholtus, etc.
My personal take is this. Zagyg learned how to transfer power from some beings of power into deific power. He learned this from researching the lost Suel empire. There are a pair of mummies in WGR1 - I upgraded them to Epic level Hunefers, and made them the first conduits of deific power Zagyg used. He then built the machine - described in the new Ruins of Castle Greyhawk - and captured some powerful beings - not necessarily demigods. Iuz was among them, but not yet demigod level. While there, Iuz learned about the methods of transferring power, and even learned of a place to find this power within. When Robilar et al unleashed Iuz, he was not yet a demigod (Tenser was reportedly a spell away from killing him with a Crushing Hand), but he got away, and recovered the beings he needed, and performed his own versions of Zagyg's rituals, to gather their power and ascend. The Soul Husks are the remains of those beings - The Lost Mages of Power of the Seul Empire. They are now Huenfers as well, animate and powerful husks that, when destroyed, rob Iuz of his symbiotic power.
That's my version. Enjoy.
ROB
I am betting more of a Solo, but 28th level seems about right. Could hit 30th, but that seems off. As I understand, only some gods are going to be in danger from 30th level PCs, so some could be non-statted, but bascially level 36+ solos.
So far solo has been reserved for full deities while the published demigods were demoted to be elites instead of being solo.
The Soul Husks are the remains of those beings - The Lost Mages of Power of the Seul Empire. They are now Huenfers as well, animate and powerful husks that, when destroyed, rob Iuz of his symbiotic power.
Duicarthan and I wrote an article for the Oerth Journal #22 (and also available on my website) titled The Mechanics of Destruction: Origins of the Twin Cataclysms where we described the creation of the Soul Husks (as hunifers).
Denis, aka "Maldin"
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com **Celebrating 10 Years!**
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A great idea though!
ROB
.... is it "fools seldom differ"?
Denis, aka "Maldin"
As I'm running a 4e Greyhawk campaign, and as always I'm interested in all things Greyhawk, I'd like to see them.
Thank you in advance
In 1e he was reasonably equivalent to one of the above in terms of hit points (i.e. slightly fewer than Orcus & Grazz't) with more spell-like abilities and the the class abilities of a high level cleric and assassin.
In 4e he might be roughly equivalent to an exarch in terms of level e.g. 26 ish which would be slightly lower than than his mother (level 30), his father (level 32), & the demon prince of gnolls (level 28). Sadly the article on Baphomet only lists his aspect not his true form - which is an odd departure - I hope they errata that.
I'd guess Iuz should have powers similar to his clerical signature spells from 1e/2e plus any of his iconic abilities such as his alternate forms, spittle, powers to demonstrate his assassination skills and perhaps some kind of leader ability to replicate his cleric powers.
Btw - go into the compendium and search for Iuz - we have an orcish priest and a zombie - groovy.
And any deity of above demi-god status was statless in 2E, which makes me wonder what the power gap is between a demi and lesser god, demi gods can be killed my mortals (except Vecna in domains of dread) and lesser gods can kill mortals with their mere presence (in their true form) according to that supplement. Where does it state that Vecna killed Iuz and absorbed his power? I heard that somewhere, and that he almost unseated the lady of pain.
Makes me wonder, could the nameless one from Planescape torment kill Vecna? Strictly speaking, he fits the criteria. he isn't a mortal or a demi-god! Though, yes, I suspect this was meant to mean you had to be above demi god status to snuff out Vecna's life force.
It was the soul husks in the howling hills right? And, of course, his worshipers if you have it so gods need them, or they empower the gods with their worship.
Grattz is an intermediate Deity, right?
I think On Hallowed Ground, a 2E planescape product is the thing that says Grazttz in an intermediate diety
And any deity of above demi-god status was statless in 2E, which makes me wonder what the power gap is between a demi and lesser god, demi gods can be killed my mortals (except Vecna in domains of dread) and lesser gods can kill mortals with their mere presence (in their true form) according to that supplement. Where does it state that Vecna killed Iuz and absorbed his power? I heard that somewhere, and that he almost unseated the lady of pain.
Makes me wonder, could the nameless one from Planescape torment kill Vecna? Strictly speaking, he fits the criteria. he isn't a mortal or a demi-god! Though, yes, I suspect this was meant to mean you had to be above demi god status to snuff out Vecna's life force.
The comparative powers of the gods has varied over the years. Originally the demon princes were roughly equivalent to lesser gods although in 1e Greyhawk their power was generally measured in the spell-like powers they possessed and then later on this was in addition to the number of extra hp they got while in their 'lairs'.
I think 4e is returning more to the 1e roots in that god-killing is back on the menu. The gods will most likely be high level solos with some staggeringly debilitating powers to make attacking them extremely dangerous.
The demon lords/princes have aspects so that temporarily killing them can still be sporting. It isn't clear if a demi-god can have an 'aspect' or not but I suspect that this might be the principle difference between demi-gods and other deities in 4e. Iuz has his soul gem hidden in the Abyss to allow him to get around this problem.
If it becomes necessary to stat Iuz my advice is to go back to the 1e stats in the old Greyhawk supplement. That gives recommendations on class levels and a few iconic abilities for the gods listed and is far less complicated than the 3e version in Dungeon. Check out the demon lord ability scores and compare them to the Iuz' 3e stats in dungeon (1e scores will be too low) and adjust accordingly.
I'd probably go for:
Demon Form - Big Sword
Midget Form - Spittle
Clerical power - perhaps one to boost his allies & pick one at whatever cleric level he was listed at in 1e
Rogue power - sneak attack plus pick some shadow assassin class features and pick either a rogue power listed at level 15 (maximum assassin level in 1e) or possibly the shadow assassin 20th level ability?
Have a look at the specialty priest spells allowed to priests of Iuz in 1e and 2e and maybe convert those effects to 4e.
Then post it to save me the trouble - my pcs are only level 11 - they aren't going to meet Iuz for years :D
I think 4e is returning more to the 1e roots in that god-killing is back on the menu. The gods will most likely be high level solos with some staggeringly debilitating powers to make attacking them extremely dangerous.
You are correct. (My packaged arrived from Amazon Yesterday - Joy!). I've just seen Tiamat and she's insane! Level 35 solo, doesn't roll initiative, five heads attack separately on their own initiative order but share 5 Action Points
My Guess is Iuz will be a bad mamma-jamma with Shapeshifting. He'll probably be a Level 31 solo but can shift between a Controller (wizened old man) and a Brute (Big nasty Cambion).
Demonic form Fullblade +3 or double claw attack - if hit by both claws he automatically grabs and strangles his target.
Mannequin form - aura that causes a penalty to hit? Spittle ages target and withers limbs (slow - save ends?)
Cape of Resistance +4
Level and hp are tricky. He was only a demigod and had no aspect so I'm thinking he should be under level 30. Titamat is level 35 - so as a rule of thumb we could pitch in with level 25 plus the deities divine rank from 3e? Hmm but then Corellion would be level 44, and 14 levels above maximum pc level might be too tough even for a greater god! Although personally, I think trying to kill a greater god should be pretty much impossible for a mortal and pretty impossible for another deity... so maybe...
Iuz had divine rank 3 I think, so he's be level 28. On second thoughts the divine ranks seem a bit arbitrary. I mean Lolth is rank 15 (i.e. level 40) and we all want a shot at killing Lolth! It's tradition.
Tiamat is a solo not just for being a god, but also a dragon. A quick look in Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide gives you:
Fzoul Chembryl, Level 28 Elite Controller, Exarch (essentially demigod)
Blazing Rorn the Fury, Level 33 Solo Primordial, (essentially a lesser god)
Mordins, Level 28 Elite Brutes, Titans, but not Primoridals, not gods
Also Sass Tam and Manshoon top in at pretty high level, though neither are gods. I think Iuz is more powerful than Fzoul, but not by much. Elite may be better than Solo for him, but maybe level 29 or 30. Level 16 is right out - that was powerful in 1E, but doesn't make a dent in the 4E power structure.
Note that the DMG specifically says that Tiamat is one of the few gods weak enough to be killed by mortals - at around 30th level. I think that Greater gods are beyond the reach of mere mortals, and I am ok with that. We can take on the lesser gods, or in 4E terms "gods". There are now only 3 levels: Greater God - has his own plane, God - serves a Greater God and/or shares one's plane, and Exarchs - basically demigods/herogods. And the Primordials and Archdevils also fill in, with Demon Lords being Primordials. They are between Exarch and God powered.
ROB
a level 33 Solo Primordial, supposed to be as powerful as a god,
I agree that 1e level limits are sometimes a tad low BUT it was possible to take clerical spell-casting to 27th level I think, so if Iuz was limited to 16th, they were actually making a statement about his clerical type powers. As an assassin he was 16th too, but 1e assassins had a maximum level of 15 - so I would say pretty much any rogue-style power could be up for grabs.
It might be worth giving Iuz a clerical-style ability based on a power of up to 20th level to boost his servants in some way as well as punish infidels. His remaining powers could be based on the shadow assassin's 16th level power and/or higher level rogue powers.
I agree that his demon form is more of a brute with his sword while the strangulation is a bit more night haggy (technical term). My network connection is down at home so I haven't really been able to give any thought to researching possible available powers.
Spittle should be easy enough to convert.
Dicefreaks used to be so good at this sort of thing - are those guys doing 4e builds yet?
Spittle should be easy enough to convert.
Now there's a phrase you don't often see.
Denis, aka "Maldin"
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
My Guess is Iuz will be a bad mamma-jamma with Shapeshifting. He'll probably be a Level 31 solo but can shift between a Controller (wizened old man) and a Brute (Big nasty Cambion).
As I said earlier: Iuz wasn't/isn't a full-fledged god but just a demigod. And demigods have been "hit with the nerf-bat" pretty hard in 4e. While deities at least got to be solo creatures, all demigods so far are elites of lvl <30.
Seeing Tiamat hasn't changed my expectation for Iuz to be something between lvl 25 elite and lvl 28 elite
a level 33 Solo Primordial, supposed to be as powerful as a god,
I expect a god to be between lvl 28 solo and lvl 35 solo (at least I hope they make no god weaker than poor Yeenoghu who I already consider too weak) and lvl 36+ solo will be for greater gods
Orcus is cited as being 'almost' as powerful as the gods (Level 33 solo)
Tiamat is cited as being a god who is just about weak enough for mortals to slay (level 35 solo).
Iggwilv (level 30 solo?) is powerful enough to enslave Graz'zt (level 31? solo - don't recall his actual level but it's about this)
This gives us a rough idea what Iuz might be and I'm starting to think that maybe a level 28 elite might be about right.