Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Mulhull Feb 23, 2008 20:39:25	I've been hearing that Oerth is the size of Jupiter according to something Gygax wrote, does anyone know what source that is? Not that it would be a bad thing, except for travel purposes, to circumvent the globe would take many many years. In real life, a terrestial (rock dirt and lava, basically a non gas giant) planet can't be that big, or it would become a black hole. Obviously, Oerth doesn't have horribly intense gravity either. And does it have an overgod? Have you ever used one, or just said it's unknown (except maybe to the deities)
#2 rob_douglas Feb 23, 2008 21:06:19	Oerth is the same size as Earth, approx. I have seen this in Gygax's writings, and nothing I have ever seen suggests the size of Jupiter for Oerth. I don't believe there is an overgod, but I have thought of seeing someone like Tharizdun as having been that in the past - until overthrown by the combined might of the other gods. I have also thought that certain properties could really be non-personified overgods, specifically alignments, and magic itself. ROB
#3 Mulhull Feb 23, 2008 21:13:13	I don't believe there is an overgod, but I have thought of seeing someone like Tharizdun as having been that in the past - until overthrown by the combined might of the other gods. I have also thought that certain properties could really be non-personified overgods, specifically alignments, and magic itself. I don't think that would happen, unless you ruled that he is a lesser overgod. All the deities in Toril could never overthrow Ao, since he can mortalize them at will, assuming they could even hurt him in their god forms. He gave Helm a good beating and blinded Tyr, even though Tyr is not restricted to Toril and has worshippers in other spheres. Besides, Tharizdun is the god of absolute destruction, why would he want to rule/create a world? He only wants to destroy everything.
#4 OleOneEye Feb 23, 2008 22:43:03	Oerth is 25,200 miles in circumference, slightly larger than Earth. Oerth does not have an overgod.
#5 thanael Feb 24, 2008 3:11:41	Who says there must be an overgod for each world. Or that if there is an overgod, that he must be the creator. There´s no law/rule that states every world must work like the FR.
#6 mortellan Feb 26, 2008 0:45:29	If one looks hard enough there is some overness to GH's gods. Lendor is a greater god and considered the father/leader of the Suloise pantheon. Istus in her description as a greater deity has powers far and above her kin. Maybe boccob, maybe Big T. But yeah no faceless Ao-type in GH.
#7 thanael Feb 26, 2008 2:18:19	The closest thing to overgods i can imagine in GH is Tharizdun before his imprisonment. But DvR20 is also sufficient for him. Perhaps from the Gord novels Proctor Chronos, and Lady Fate which you can identify with Lendor and Istus. But again greater god status is more than enough for these.
#8 ripvanwormer Feb 27, 2008 12:57:44	Proctor Chronos, Lady Tolerance, and Master Entropy from the Gord books would all qualify as overgods in the sense that they seem to exist beyond the usual pantheon and are completely hidden from mortal knowledge. They're not worshipped as gods are, but they seem to pull the strings of the cosmos. Whether they're actually more powerful than gods like Boccob, Istus, and Lendor is perhaps open to dispute (they don't seem to have the ability to demote or promote the gods like Ao does), but they seem to have a similar role as far as their proximity to other gods and mortals goes.
#9 mindolin Mar 05, 2008 10:32:53	Perhaps Tharizdun was originally an Overgod, one who turned against all that he once stood for, and lost a slight amount of power because of it. Seeing the threat that he now possessed, the other gods, all of them, fought to imprison him, though he was still too strong for them to kill. All just an idea, nothing official there
#10 OleOneEye Mar 06, 2008 7:57:39	Of the 4 main pantheons (Suel, Oeridian, Flan, and Baklune), none are explicitely stated to have a head god in the manner of Zeus. Do folks have opinions are as to whether any of the pantheons do have such a head god?
#11 thanael Mar 06, 2008 8:10:12	I beg to differ. There is plenty known about pantheon leaders, you just have to dig a little deeper than the anemic 3E fluff. Lendor is the head of the Suel Pantheon. Istus is the head of the Bakluni pantheon. Pelor (G), Obad-Hai (N) and Nerull (E) are the elders of the Flan Pantheon and possibly brothers. Beory as an incarnation of Oerth itself is also an elder possibly their mother and the head of the pantheon. For the Oeridians it is less clear. The pantheon has many pairs of siblings and you can identify some of the gods as older than the others (Erythnul, Procan, Sol, Incabulos). As for a head of pantheon I think there is none now. See also the excellent GH deities family tree thread and of course the LG_Deities pdf.
#12 ripvanwormer Mar 09, 2008 20:06:18	I think it depends on where you are. In Veluna they'd say that Rao was the head god. In the Pale, they'd credit Pholtus as being the most powerful of the true and virtuous gods (with those who would not acknowledge the sovereignty of the Blinding Light little better than demons). In the United Kingdom of Ahlissa, Zilchus, god of wealth, prestige, and politics, makes for an admirable Overking of the deities. In the grim North Kingdom they know Hextor is more powerful; the Shieldlanders concur but maintain that his brother and eternal foe, Heironeous, is mightier still and will ultimately triumph. In Ekbir they believe Al'Asran, the Baklunish face of Pelor, is the greatest of all deities, while in grim Ket, pragmatic Tusmit, and distant Zeif they revere Istus as the queen of the heavens. In the Old Faith, Beory is the source and center of everything, but the proud folk of Tenh side with their less civilized cousins the Rovers of the Barrens in worshipping Pelor as the skyfather, patriarch of the gods. In the lands of the northern Suel barbarian folk, Vatun is held to be the greatest of deities, temporarily imprisoned due to an act of sneaking cowardliness because their god could never be bested in a fair fight. The Black Brotherhood holds that Tharizdun is the deposed king of all the multiverse, who will one day be king once more, ruling a kingdom of glorious infinite ruin and desolation. The cultists of Nerull know that death ultimately claims all; even Tharizdun will one day be freed only to fall before the scythe of the Reaper. In the Duchy of Urnst they teach that Lendor is the father and mother of all the gods, but that Lendor has grown old and distant and gods like Pelor and St. Cuthbert are more potent in the present era. The Scarlet Brotherhood agrees that Lendor's time has past, teaching that Wee Jas, Syrul, and Pyremius have grown mightier than their progenitor (Pyremius might even be slowly poisoning him while Syrul feeds him flattering distractions, and this is only the proper path for the ambitious in the face of unworthy superiors), but the Silent Ones in Keoland believe that despite his withdrawal Lendor has lost none of his ancient power and wisdom.
#13 mindolin Mar 10, 2008 9:45:20	I think it depends on where you are. In Veluna they'd say that Rao was the head god. In the Pale, they'd credit Pholtus as being the most powerful of the true and virtuous gods (with those who would not acknowledge the sovereignty of the Blinding Light little better than demons). In the United Kingdom of Ahlissa, Zilchus, god of wealth, prestige, and politics, makes for an admirable Overking of the deities. In the grim North Kingdom they know Hextor is more powerful; the Shieldlanders concur but maintain that his brother and eternal foe, Heironeous, is mightier still and will ultimately triumph. In Ekbir they believe Al'Asran, the Baklunish face of Pelor, is the greatest of all deities, while in grim Ket, pragmatic Tusmit, and distant Zeif they revere Istus as the queen of the heavens. In the Old Faith, Beory is the source and center of everything, but the proud folk of Tenh side with their less civilized cousins the Rovers of the Barrens in worshipping Pelor as the skyfather, patriarch of the gods. In the lands of the northern Suel barbarian folk, Vatun is held to be the greatest of deities, temporarily imprisoned due to an act of sneaking cowardliness because their god could never be bested in a fair fight. The Black Brotherhood holds that Tharizdun is the deposed king of all the multiverse, who will one day be king once more, ruling a kingdom of glorious infinite ruin and desolation. The cultists of Nerull know that death ultimately claims all; even Tharizdun will one day be freed only to fall before the scythe of the Reaper. In the Duchy of Urnst they teach that Lendor is the father and mother of all the gods, but that Lendor has grown old and distant and gods like Pelor and St. Cuthbert are more potent in the present era. The Scarlet Brotherhood agrees that Lendor's time has past, teaching that Wee Jas, Syrul, and Pyremius have grown mightier than their progenitor (Pyremius might even be slowly poisoning him while Syrul feeds him flattering distractions, and this is only the proper path for the ambitious in the face of unworthy superiors), but the Silent Ones in Keoland believe that despite his withdrawal Lendor has lost none of his ancient power and wisdom. You win. As it stands, it doesn't even matter so much where you go as much as who you ask. Each person is likely saying that their patron deity is the mightiest, and thus the Overgod.
#14 rob_douglas Mar 11, 2008 13:39:45	They may say that, but the definition of an overgod as per the rules is clear, and no one in the Greyhawk pantheon meets that criteria now. I suggested Tharizdun might because the lore says that he was powerful, dangerous, and took multiple other gods to take him down and imprison him. ROB
#15 thanael Mar 12, 2008 9:21:25	You win. As it stands, it doesn't even matter so much where you go as much as who you ask. Each person is likely saying that their patron deity is the mightiest, and thus the Overgod. Note that we were not talking about overgods anymore, but about pantheon leaders, as per the question in post #10 by OleOneEye
#16 extempus Mar 12, 2008 17:12:08	The leader of a pantheon is one thing, but there are no over-powers like Ao in Greyspace that I am aware of. Faiths & Avatars (p. 30) says this of Ao: Ao is the only over-power in Realmspace. Ao lies beyond the bounds of the rankings of deities' powers in any way. He is considered to be more powerful than any other power and all powers combined. Ao has little concern for day-to-day mortal life, but he regards the powers of the Realms as his creations. He requires no worshipers and grants no spells to mortals. It is doubtful that he even listens to mortal prayers or pleas. He serves as a watcher and a guardian over the Realms from outside of its cosmos. Theoretically, Ao's avatar can do anything. Normally he acts only upon deities, not mortals. Ao may promote any sentient being to any stature of godhood instantly if it accepts the responsibilities and duties of the divine state, and he may also demote a deity at will. From the sound of it, Tharizdun doesn't fit the description of an over-power like Ao, especially since the Greyspace gods defeated and imprisoned Tharizdun, yet none of the Realmspace gods were able to do anything when Ao confined them to Toril during the Time of Troubles. The fact that Ao requires no worshipers and yet is more powerful than other deities reminded me of something from Deities & Demigods, p. 63: Many of the gods of Greece descended from the greater titans, who were elder beings before the time of mortals and therefore did not need worshipers to make them strong. The worship by man gave power to the sons and daughters of the titans of a type that was not known to their elders. This enabled them to throw down the titans and gain mastery of the Prime Material Plane. None is more powerful than Ao, and since he requires no worshipers, he sounds like he could be a titan-like being. However, unlike a titan, mortal worship of Realmspace powers has not made them more powerful than he. So... there aren't any over-powers similar to Ao in Greyspace. Whether the worshipers of various gods consider their patron to be an over-power is another story entirely...
#17 bigmac Mar 15, 2008 20:01:57	In real life, a terrestial (rock dirt and lava, basically a non gas giant) planet can't be that big, or it would become a black hole. Obviously, Oerth doesn't have horribly intense gravity either. The thing is - Oerth isn't real life. So if the designers say it is the size of a sun, but still has normal gravity it does work. We already know that Oerth isn't a black hole, so can infer that the rules of the fantasy universe make it work as a planet. In fact if you look at the Spelljammer Campaign Setting, it sets out a universe where all planets have the same gravity. Obviously Greyhawk pre-dates SJ, so you don't have to use SJ rules, but if you ever decide you want to use Greyspace, then all the planets will use that logic. Who says there must be an overgod for each world. Or that if there is an overgod, that he must be the creator. There´s no law/rule that states every world must work like the FR. No, but Dragonlance has a High God. The High God summoned Paladine and Takhisis to Krynnspace and got them to agree to help create the world. He then summoned Gilean and gave him a book called The Tobril. After the All-Saints War, the High God returns from The Beyond and stops the gods from fighting. I'd say that The High God has similar powers to Ao and that implies that these sort of beings could exist in other crystal spheres (or Alternate Prime Material Planes if you prefer). So I don't think it is unreasonable for someone to ask if Greyhawk has something similar to these two overgods.
#18 see Mar 21, 2008 3:29:04	Oerth is (as mentioned above) 25,200 miles in polar diameter. Equatorial diameter is generally assumed to be the same or close enough as to make no serious difference. See the Oerth Journal #3 and #4 for some discussions on how the size relates to the maps; see Dragon Annual #1, p. 72-73, for the (Gygax-designed but not necessarily canon) whole of Oerik. (If you use the equatorial scale in Oerth Journal #3, Oerik as mapped in Dragon Annual #1 is pretty much the entire northern hemisphere; if you use the 35th parallel scale in Oerth Journal #4, there's room for a wide ocean and maybe a small continent in the northern hemisphere.) Real life doesn't put much of a limit on Oerth given that Oerth's sun officially orbits the planet, instead of the other way around (by the 1983 boxed set and Spelljammer; the first Greyhawk novel, by Gygax, has a cleric claim the opposite.) Further, Oerth may be hollow (as mentioned in Oerth Journal #3). As far as overgods a la Ao, Oerth seems to lack one; at least, there's nothing that solidly points to one.