| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| #1acearSep 20, 2007 8:09:51 | It would already seem to me that for the most point, it already meets that expectation. I'm I wrong? My thoughts are that I would like little drastic changes to what has come before. But with War always looming for central Flanness. The magical barrier around Rauxes possibly getting bigger and drawing the Great Kingdom in to Hell and many more doomsday plots happening. It would seem to me that it it's not far from the mark. I dare say that most normal peasants don't travel very far, and don't know more than likely of any nation removed from thier own if the seperation is further than the bordering nation. What's everyone elses opinion? |
| #2acearSep 20, 2007 10:06:29 | In it's current form (either post-FtA, or the RPGA versions) I feel that the world isn't a points of light setting. For the most part (as I understand it) most of the nations of the Flanaess have stable borders and enough affability to form mutual defense against the darker parts of the continent. Granted there are points of strain between many nations (e.g. the Kettish occupation of Thornward, the giant invasions in Geoff, Iuz's post-war occupations, and the collapse of the Great Kingdom) but for the most part the world is a known quantity to it's rulers. No I'm not going to drag in FR. I would still assume that goblins are a known threat in POL. The soltion in many cases is build walls around the village don't go out after dark. Maybe I don't understand exactly what POL will mean, but given how deadly I think "Oerik" can be, I'm not so sure that there needs to be much tweaking there needs to be. I can still be sleeping nug in my bed and have slavers take me away in the night if I live on the Wild Coast. And getting help from the local Lord has always been a waste of time. |
| #3clawhoundSep 20, 2007 12:23:00 | Greyhawk can fit a Points of Light setting. With those random encounter tables, you wouldn't go out either. It would be fairly trivial to make it a Points of Light setting. States claim territory, but really, they only nominally control the territory. Things are really just going to hell all over the place. |
| #4acearSep 20, 2007 12:37:20 | Greyhawk can fit a Points of Light setting. With those random encounter tables, you wouldn't go out either. I think that is the way I think about it. Sailing isn't even safe with Dragon Turtles and such. |
| #5yakmanSep 20, 2007 16:04:21 | I don't see Greyhawk as a PoL setting for several reasons: -The 'civilized' world is fairly well organized. Many nations are big, run rather well, and are strong enough to hold off exceptionally strong forces of evil (iuz, the scarlet brotherhood, etc.). -trade is fairly common. there are big cities on the coast, well-traveled roads, and some degree of prosperity. it's clearly late/high middle ages rather than the dark ages. -villainy is contained or beyond the borders of civilization. iuz and his ilk are restricted or far away (although not far enough away) from civilization. Generally, the monsters/barbarians are in the hills and the wastelands. They aren't overwhelming the civilized world--yet. -there are some locations that are PoL. Aerdy and Ahlissa could be seen as PoL. The borderlands of Iuz's Empire, and the mountain kingdoms in the west could also be seen as PoL, as could the Pomarj. But most of southern and central flaeness are pretty tame. The Barbaric lands to the north do not know civilization. Overall, with a few tweaks, Greyhawk could be PoL. Currently, there are some spots of Black, some blazing lights, and a few PoL. It's more balanced than either the current or coming Realms. |
| #6OleOneEyeSep 21, 2007 0:46:06 | I guess I run Greyhawk pretty much as a points of light setting. The feudal character is quite prevalent. Rulers do not have much in the way of standing armies, and have to rely upon the nobles to administer to the lands. The nobles do not have the strength to directly police their territories and have to rely upon individual lords of the manor to keep their manor safe. Trade routes exist with merchant caravans and trade ships. Stray from the trade routes, however, and you are relying upon tracks between manors with merchants being quite rare. Local villainy permeates all nations. A manor in the heart of the Barony of Littleberg must rely upon its knight and his sergeants to protect itself. A neighboring copse of trees could easily house a small goblin tribe plucking off stray sheep. Baron Jemian does not have the forces to be able to police the land, so if the knight cannot personally defeat the goblins than they may well prosper. Villagers fear them and stay huddled in the manor village at night. Enter the PCs as the ones to heroicly defeat the goblin menace. |
| #7cyberknight2000Sep 21, 2007 12:44:09 | Points of light already exists in Greyhawk, in a manner of speaking. Lareth's Moathouse was a couple of hours walk from Homlett, with all manner of baddies to be encountered randomly while in transit. Greyhawk castle is just up the road from one of the most populous and travelled spots on the continent, again with the need to watch for ogres, undead and bandits. I think some folks are over thinking the concern over the points of light notion to mean more than it suggests. Just my humble opinion. |
| #8the_ubbergeekSep 21, 2007 16:37:06 | And don't get me started on the 'vast oceans of light' in Faerŭn. There is a lotsa dark places... try to find a friendly guy in Thay, by example. |
| #9camthalionSep 23, 2007 22:25:07 | Reading Greyhawk from a modern perspective may be the problem. We tend to see the nation states as much more stable than they are. Borders should be thought of as approximate and optimistic not fixed and stable. Sovereignty is challenged constantly. Various orders of Knighthood work across national boundaries. This could be accentuated in future editions. After all, in a world inhabited by dragons why should we be stuck with a thoroughly modernist conception of the nation state? |
| #10yakmanSep 23, 2007 23:13:42 | Indeed--which is why I approved of the 3e setting book not delineating national borders. But there are still vast, relatively centralized kingdoms controlling much of the flaeness. They've been shown to be able to stop even the most horrific evil. Perhaps PoL isn't the best way to phrase it, but there's certainly good patches of Light amidst a good deal of dark. |
| #11zombiegleemaxSep 24, 2007 7:52:21 | Nope, not even close to the PoL concept. The PoL concept, as I see it, firstly relies on inefficient communication between satellite cities. It secondly relies on inferior policing of districts between cities. In fact, it very much relies on centralized power that only reaches a few miles beyond the walls of any major centre of civilization. Greyhawk has a massive infrastructure that spans half the continent and is heavily policed and enforced and, more importantly, heavily populated. This was, in part, due to the Great Kingdom's influence which has remained despite the downfall into petty squabbles for regional power. Travelling from one end of the Flanaess to the other, can be done in relative safety if you stick to the roads. Politics change, but there is little inhibiting travel and trade aside from the odd bandit or kobold/goblin raid. In a PoL world, however, trade would be quite limited. You would have city-states that could barely protect their own farmlands against the 'unknown entities' that existed beyond the patrols of the local militia. Most trade would be via the sea and even then, who knows what lurks beneath? Travel for anyone would be a brave (foolish) thing to do. News of beyond would become almost a commodity in and of itself. You'd certainly earn an ale and perhaps some bread if you told a decent enough story of the happenings from the city over the hill. |
| #12clawhoundSep 24, 2007 9:55:05 | You confuse fluff with opportunity. You are correct, Greyhawk is NOT a PoL setting. Yet, it takes very little work to turn it INTO a PoL setting. "There are many cities which have protected lands, and patrolled roads between the cities. Go outside these areas, and the land quickly grows more hostile and forbidding. Though it seems as if humanity dominates the world, truth is, civilization is slowly loosing. Villages and towns have become abandoned and overgrown. Evil cults thrive as desperate people seek safety. Into the power vacuum, local warlords have arisen. All the while, those of power are in denial." In one paragraph, Greyhawk is now entirely different. That's all that you really need. In fact, I would say that Greyhawk works better as a PoL setting. |
| #13yakmanSep 24, 2007 14:30:29 | You confuse fluff with opportunity. You are correct, Greyhawk is NOT a PoL setting. Yet, it takes very little work to turn it INTO a PoL setting. Two words: Rel Astra. If we continue with the game fact that this is the largest city in the Flanaess, we are basically stuck with a non-PoL setting. Which is ironic, considering that it's on the periphery of the region most easily translated into PoL. ;) in PoL, there's little trade. There's not lots of communication. The largest city would likely be some hulking relic in the old Great Kingdom or the central Flanaess. But no... it's on the corner of the continent, and apparently still a money maker despite the chaos around it. Of course, we can turn Rel Astra into a decadent ruin, a shell of its former self, infiltrated by the Scarlet Brotherhood, it's harbor empty, it's citizenry transformed from productive merchants, artisans, and yeomen into mercenaries, beggars, and rioters. |
| #14camthalionSep 24, 2007 14:57:39 | Of course, we can turn Rel Astra into a decadent ruin, a shell of its former self, infiltrated by the Scarlet Brotherhood, it's harbor empty, it's citizenry transformed from productive merchants, artisans, and yeomen into mercenaries, beggars, and rioters. That might take an entire afternoon but I think it is doable. How shall we take it down? Meteors? Magic? Monsters? Mass madness? .... Oooooh, I think this is going to be fun! |
| #15clawhoundSep 24, 2007 15:09:08 | Think of Greyhawk as a coloring book. We've both got the same pictures and the same crayons, yet we color it so differently. That's how many people see Greyhawk. We also color out things that we don't like or redraw them. This is what I find fun about Greyhawk. I think that Rel-Astra is a great place to start the game. Who else would notice the decline in trade so much as a trading city? You start your training in the Rel-Astra region, but as you get a few levels up, adventure draws you further afield. For destruction, the city burned down. You see, there was this wizard in a pub who threw a fireball, and everything go out of hand after that. |
| #16MerricBSep 24, 2007 20:01:38 | Eastern Greyhawk is not Points of Light. The Wild Coast - that could be Points of Light. The fallen Great Kingdom - that could be Points of Light. (And is in my version of it, for I prefer to ignore Ivid the Undying entirely). Cheers! |
| #17camthalionSep 24, 2007 20:38:40 | For destruction, the city burned down. You see, there was this wizard in a pub who threw a fireball, and everything go out of hand after that. Fireball? Nah. I heard some dumbass tried to turn a bag of holding inside out. But, yeah, it was in a pub. That part's true. |
| #18zombiegleemaxSep 25, 2007 9:03:04 | The fallen Great Kingdom - that could be Points of Light. (And is in my version of it, for I prefer to ignore Ivid the Undying entirely). Anyone can manipulate any published world to become whatever it is they want it to be. But that wasn't the OP's question. As published (and by having been referenced in products and used as a source to develop later content, ItU is for all intents and purposes, published), 90% of the Flanaess just isn't PoL compatible. And really, the entire idea of PoL is that 100% of your gaming world is compatible with the ideology. It'd be kindof pointless to be gaming in that 10% only to wander over a border and go, "Whoopsy, too much technology, magic and infrastructure here, better go on back to me good ole PoL!" Also... Carl Sargent is one of the greatest RPG writers to have ever graced the scene with his presence. It's sad that you would ignore his work. |
| #19cragSep 25, 2007 15:59:02 | Personally Ivid the Undying I feel was the best regional sourcebook and I was sorry for Carl Sargent it wasn't published - if successful - imagine the follow up sourcebooks which given the response on several threads; demand is still high. It all depends on the definition of PoL; for myself GH already is a PoL setting especially post GH wars. Depending where you are dictates how bad; a setting doesn't have to be all despair or sunshine remember this is GREYhawk. I mean I expect more civilisation in the capital of Rel Mord then on the snow barbarians tundra. |
| #20zombiegleemaxSep 25, 2007 19:12:03 | IMO, communication is the greatest indication of whether an area is PoL or not, second only to the amount of policing the area has. And as I mentioned earlier, you can't have one area be PoL if right next door, it isn't as that defeats the entire point of PoL. Given the distances and level of communication and policing, there just isn't any area in the Flanaess that can really be considered PoL under those guidelines. Try this. Pick one of the most remote locations you can think of in the Flanaess. Then read up on what surrounds that area and where the nearest other town is. If there is significant trade between the two areas then there is significant communication between them and to allow for that trade, there is significant policing of the route. There are few areas where if you travel for a day, you won't hit a significant waypoint of civilization in the Flanaess which is connected to other waypoints. And this destroys any real sense of PoL. |
| #21OleOneEyeSep 26, 2007 1:06:06 | IMO, communication is the greatest indication of whether an area is PoL or not, second only to the amount of policing the area has. And as I mentioned earlier, you can't have one area be PoL if right next door, it isn't as that defeats the entire point of PoL. The Flanneass has a land area of approximately 4 million square miles - slightly larger than Europe. The Flanneass has a population of about 25 million sapients. Europe hit a population figure of 25 million about 200 BC. There are lots and lots of wilderness areas separating the points of light. Nyrond has a land area of about 280,000 square miles - somewhat larger than France. Nyrond has a population of 2.6 million sapients. France hit 2.6 million about 400 BC. There are lots and lots of wilderness areas within the "heavily settled" Kindom of Nyrond. Given the low population figures of the Flanneass, points of light are not right next door, not even within the main kingdoms. |
| #22zombiegleemaxSep 26, 2007 1:41:25 | A) Wtf has Europe got to do with DND and PoL? There is no parallel whatsoever and introducing it as an example is pointless. This is not a history lesson, this is a fantasy game. B) Pick any village on the map in the Flanaess and I'll prove it's not PoL. |
| #23OleOneEyeSep 26, 2007 2:26:27 | A) Wtf has Europe got to do with DND and PoL? There is no parallel whatsoever and introducing it as an example is pointless. A. The general premise of points of light is a lack of communication between population centers coupled with a lack of orderly patrols between those population centers. As DnD is centered around pre-industrial technology, distance between population centers is very important in determining how much communication and patrols are viable. To get a rough approximation of how much communication and patrols are reasonable given the population density, the best source I can think of is comparison to the real world. To be certain, magic and flying mounts can greatly affect these factors, and much depends upon how prevalent these factors are in any individual DM's interpretation of the setting. B. As I used Nyrond earlier, how about a village in the North Central lands two hexes southeast of Hendrenn Halgood (M2,19 on the Paizo map). |
| #24clawhoundSep 26, 2007 10:26:10 | You really can't prove anything about Greyhawk. It's a made-up setting, and the details on that setting are fairly sparse. Does extensive trading mean a superhighway, or one caravan per month? We don't know. If you want to get a feel for the setting, you can only compare against the real world with the numbers that you've got. We've got population. We've got land area. Even if you can prove your point, the whole setting is an invention, and that invention is trivial to alter. |
| #25zombiegleemaxSep 26, 2007 19:16:38 | B. As I used Nyrond earlier, how about a village in the North Central lands two hexes southeast of Hendrenn Halgood (M2,19 on the Paizo map). Ok. I mean no offense by this but at the same time, you providing an example in one of the most populace and well patrolled areas of Greyhawk says to me that you really don't get the whole PoL concept at all. If you'd gone and said somewhere in the Bright Desert or the Corusk Mountains or the Barrens, etc. which are low population areas that have major tracts of unpolicable wilderness, then maybe I would've had my work cut out for me. But a small village a day or so travel from a major town, in the middle of one of the most powerful kingdoms in the realm... wow, I don't even have to argue that one. |
| #26OleOneEyeSep 26, 2007 22:05:34 | You really can't prove anything about Greyhawk. It's a made-up setting, and the details on that setting are fairly sparse. Does extensive trading mean a superhighway, or one caravan per month? We don't know. I agree with you 100%. My whole point is that the Flaneass can easily be seen as a points of light setting. |
| #27OleOneEyeSep 27, 2007 0:03:50 | Ok. The main road through Hendrenn Halgood is some 60 miles away, with winding tracks making their way to the various villages away from that highway. There is very little reason for the village's peasants to travel that far, likely none of them ever have. Likely there is a regional market some 5 - 10 miles away from the village where they bring their foodstuffs and cloth when in season. Caravans come to that regional market during when products are in season, but have little reason to do so outside of season. Caravans have pretty much no reason to go to each individual village. Nyrond's nobles live in the cities, far from their various fiefs. This particular village's noble may live in Hendrenn Halgood, or Rel Mord, or Mithat. The holdings of tenants-in-chief appear to be scattered across Nyrond, with contiguous holding being relatively rare. If this village is in trouble, it will likely be very problematic to get word to its tenant-in-chief. The village is probably a manor with a resident knight whom would be the one to handle problems that arise. As the tenant-in-chief is probably far away, it is very likely the knight will receive little aid if, say, a werewolf appears. As the knight's feudal duties have him serving in the king's army for some 2 months each year, he may very well not be in the manor when the werewolf appears. Hopefully he maintains good relations with neighboring manorial knights and can request their aid. Hopefully the messenger he sends doesn't get eaten by the werewolf in route on the little travelled path to the next village. Hopefully the neighboring knights are willing to risk their lives to defend a village that they do not have feudal duties to defend. As for patrols, who is patrolling? The main highway some 60 miles away likely has the king's men patrolling. A knight will be responsible for the area immediately surrounding his village. As for the winding paths between villages? In short, this is how I run Greyhawk, and it feels very much like what is described by points of light. You may run things such that villages have regular contact with the main trade cities, travel among villages is routine, patrols between villages are common, etc., and that is a fine way to play. However, that need not be the case for all. |
| #28eileenprophetofistusSep 27, 2007 5:28:14 | Regretfully, not enough is known of the Points of Light concept in order for players and DMs to make a truly educated decision on whether or not Greyhawk fits this particular style of play. That said, I do beleive that because the World of Greyhawk was originally intended to be a world in which the fans develop, as seemingly was Gary Gygax's original vision, allowing the DM to flesh out the details of their world, it should be noted that some versions of Greyhawk are less developed or taken on an aproach which makes the Points of Light concept very applicable. Others, after considerable development from the DM are less likely to include this concept. Neither way is wrong, and for those who wish to retain the original belief of Mr. Gygax, the Points of Light concept can either be applied or not applied, simply because it is your world to develop. So really, regardless of the position taken of "yes Greyhawk is Points of Light" or "no Greyhawk is not" both ring true as a result of individual creativity from one Greyhawk campaign to the next. |
| #29netlichOct 05, 2007 8:45:27 | Frankly I do not get even how one can propose to build this scenario of PoL in any setting (of course not looking into DarkSun or Ravenloft type of things) without some major modifications to the rules and system...or some major catastrophe that will again induce some rule changing I will be honest and say that I have not read other boards or many news items so I am barelygrasping the notion of what is meant by the term and I will agree with the above saying that each DM to his own...That has been one of the strengths of this hobby from its conception...and rang especially truer with Greyhawk. But honestly, unless you take out organizations like the circle of Eight (or six or seven or whatever number they will hold in 4E), Tenser as a force of good, various knights, Organized armies of kingdoms like Veluna,Furyondy and Nyrond (even Keoland) that can turn back the tide of war even when assaulted by demonic armies, City states like Greyhawk with guilds that reach far into the surrounding lands, and so on; I cannot see how you can blanket the central campaign world with the concept of the PoL... Of course the solutions are easy if you don't care much about the repercussions (lets have a plague of sorts- a magical one; lets throw out world war to destroy the world; lets bring out the god that all gods banded together to imprison; etc) you can get away with it...In fact you might actually make something workable although chances are you will anger a lot of people.... But without major changes I cannot comprehend how people can call Greyhawk PoL as it stands now or throughout pretty much all of its history (including the post Greyhawk Wars era - excluding the time and locales after the Baklunish and the Suel wiped each other out by spellnukes)... my 2 cp |
| #30twg_prometheusOct 05, 2007 16:16:07 | Greyhawk as described in campaign documentation is not a Points of Light campaign. Parts of it might be, but the whole is not. The armies of the nations are too large and their borders are too well-defined. That doesn't mean that some villages aren't isolated or that bad things can't happen in the middle of Nyrond for instance, but as a whole, the powers in Rel Mord can control the territory they claim. As others have said, it wouldn't take much to shift the Flanaess to a Points of Light campaign world, though. Cut two Legions out of Nyrond's standing army and they'd be very pressed to maintain their borders or the relative sense of order within their territory. |
| #31cragOct 06, 2007 14:42:01 | Could we be taking a too literal view? Some posters seem to feel that if the setting has anything, anywhere approaching organized authority or trade somehow this doesn't fit Wotc definition of PoL but I doubt if they have been this literal or even if theyhave a concise plan. It is just a comment at this point... |
| #32clawhoundOct 06, 2007 18:38:19 | I think that it is too easy to take a setting too much "by the book". A setting contains only what the DM actually implements, in the way that the DM implements it. The fact that this campaign may directly contradict published novels or other material is of no matter. Each campaign, even if played close to the book, is an interpretation of that setting. I doubt that two DMs interpret everything in the same setting the same way. |
| #33JohnduBoisOct 07, 2007 8:56:47 | It's interesting to me that netlich mentions Furyondy as a place making "Points of Light" in Greyhawk impossible. Were LG not ending, Furyondy would have turned into a "Points of Light" region starting in 2009. I can't explain why without spoiling the remaining Furyondy adventures, but let's just say that political stalemate between high-ranking individuals can lead to a very difficult situation for the common people, especially if the military is off doing the only thing that everyone agrees on... |
| #34netlichOct 08, 2007 3:00:36 | It's interesting to me that netlich mentions Furyondy as a place making "Points of Light" in Greyhawk impossible. Were LG not ending, Furyondy would have turned into a "Points of Light" region starting in 2009. I can't explain why without spoiling the remaining Furyondy adventures, but let's just say that political stalemate between high-ranking individuals can lead to a very difficult situation for the common people, especially if the military is off doing the only thing that everyone agrees on... It is undoubtedly my mistake that I did not mention in my previous post the fact that I do not know of the LG story and especially the specifics of each triad's campaign...But I see where you are going with it and I agree to an extend. But... To my knowledge though if any land can be of "shinning light" quality it would have to be the Greyhawk city enviros and the Furyondy-Veluna kingdoms. Perhaps Keoland as well as it was spared to an extend by the goblinoid and giantkin incursions and lastly Nyrond as it was overly taxed by the surrounding turmoil. (Of course I am not asking to hear the specifics of the Furyondian campaign arcs of LG!) To me the armies of Furyondy and Veluna and their alies managed to defy Iuz's army with Demons...With the Old One's forces sorely deprived of most of their demonic components they would have an easier time securing their csoil and borders... Naturally as many have already correctly mentioned the beauty of the game of D&D and especially Greyhawk is that each DM makes his own campaign out of it so in the end we might be arguing on a moot point from start. Each person can make their arbitrary decision about what PoL means and whether it befits their campaign. My original concern, as I have a few times tried to ascertain in home brew worlds of mine, is that PoL in a campaign world of D&D core is hard to envisage without some rules "administration" or special events that minimise the effect of classes. One has to think hard on how many "adventurers" are out there and what levels the NPC classes can take within a kingdoms army. My vision of a PoL campaign is usually somethin akin to R.E.Howard's Conan World where great expanses are ruled by city states and even kingdoms are hard pressed to secure their lands. Bandits and monsters can be found even inside the strongest kingdoms there. But in a D&D core world add a few levels of fighter to an NPC patrol and you are already hard pressed to ensure why they did not rout out the goblins and need the first level PCs to do so...And then do you start scaling the world for the PCs advancement...? When the PCs are 10th, or 12th or even 15th level it is hard to maintain this effect without working their great levels into the story...Are there other bands as powerful? what effect do they have? Could it be that they alreayd cleared out the wilderness before the PCs got there? To make a long story short: Previous editions D&D (I have played every version to an extend) had that worked in...You left a city and then the random encounters started rolling out. But then the game matured...DMs started thinking WHY an encounter was there and what effect would it have in the enviros...To me this led to the state of things with 3.5 and the obvious lack of random encounters compared to previous editions. The PoL initiative IMHO is an attempt to go back to the old feel of D&D...And I find it a bit hard to understand ; especially applied throughout the world of Greyhawk as I know it. Another 2cp (making it 4 total ;) ) |
| #35JohnduBoisOct 08, 2007 7:02:29 | I'm totally with you on the high-level play aspect. IMO, in 3.5, the sense of the game starts to break down after about 10th level unless you're going to alternate planes, etc. As for Furyondy, I wasn't trying to say you were wrong, per se, just that even in a "shining light" nation (which Furyondy is), you can make a PoL system work. It just needs some work sometimes. |
| #36clawhoundOct 08, 2007 11:51:58 | Your players also need to "buy" the setting. With some players, you can just wave your hands and that all that that takes. Rather than explain the plot holes, you just conveniently ignore them. If your players need more than that, then there's more work to do. Some players will never accept the world as you present it. That's the tough one. |
| #37yakmanOct 08, 2007 17:09:05 | My original concern, as I have a few times tried to ascertain in home brew worlds of mine, is that PoL in a campaign world of D&D core is hard to envisage without some rules "administration" or special events that minimise the effect of classes. One has to think hard on how many "adventurers" are out there and what levels the NPC classes can take within a kingdoms army. My vision of a PoL campaign is usually somethin akin to R.E.Howard's Conan World where great expanses are ruled by city states and even kingdoms are hard pressed to secure their lands. Bandits and monsters can be found even inside the strongest kingdoms there. But in a D&D core world add a few levels of fighter to an NPC patrol and you are already hard pressed to ensure why they did not rout out the goblins and need the first level PCs to do so...And then do you start scaling the world for the PCs advancement...? When the PCs are 10th, or 12th or even 15th level it is hard to maintain this effect without working their great levels into the story...Are there other bands as powerful? what effect do they have? Could it be that they alreayd cleared out the wilderness before the PCs got there? The simple answer is the Eberron solution. NPCs take NPC character levels, generally--rather than fighter, they take warrior levels. The PCs and their more spectacular supporting cast/opposition are the only ones with PC character levels. So the PCs are truly the 'Heroes' of the world--they are the only ones able to fight against the darkness. |
| #38netlichOct 09, 2007 8:19:00 | I am digressing a bit here actually veering into an Out of Topic post., but nontheless: I personally agree with Clawhound...D&D roleplaying "breaks" at higher levels especially when you run long winded campaigns (I am talking years of real life). Unless you plan carefully from starters about the power levels in your campaign world and its expansion and advancement as the PCs advance in level (which now happens awfully fast if you go by the book) you end up with few options: > PCs and oppossition are the "chosen ones" (my longest running party simply hates those words and they shirk away form any notion that the weight of the world hangs on their shoulders -they have saved one kingdom/world/plane/universe to omany in their opinion). The rest are NPC levels or minor levels which begs the question "What happens in the neighbouring village/kingdom/plane? Are the PCs and the locales they "happen" to visit the only places where power is focused? Else the world should have been overrun by ultrapowerfull creatures/baddies etc. > Everybody levels up...Or what I call the "Oblivion" effect for those who played the latest Elder Scrolls computer game...I wont even go into the "ludicre" scenario of a goblin with 10 levels of fighter and magical items the party would covet. Although it coul d make an interesting side trek or two. > An imbalanced and unrealistic world that "won't feel right" to PCs who notice these things instea dof simply bashing down the door to the next dungeon. > Another world... the PCs get involved into the neighbouring kingdom/continent/planar adventurers as they move up the power ladder... All four of these might be acceptable by some people. And all these have their pros and cons. So returning to the question at hand even if you plan your setting as a PoL at a lower level how do you keep it at a latter stage as is? Even if you say that the guards and army of Furyondy are not powerfull/plenty enough to offer protection in the surrounding lands what happens after the PCs have gained a few levels and goblins and bandits are not a worry to them anymore? Most of the above solutiosn would not work but for the "move to" one...The PCs move to Rauxes or Iuz's lands and then off Greyhawk... So how do you claim a "normal" sword and sorcery world like Greyhawk and perhaps the Realms is PoL without some major changes in the rules, structures and kingdoms in there? When you have to describe the world to a variety of players playing a variety of levels in there? Admittedly I am being a bit on the absolute side here and things are not that extreme but I hope I am getting my point across... And this is why to me Greyhawk cannot be a PoL to a big extend. And I am very curious at what Wizards interpretation will be for other campaign worlds as well... |
| #39clawhoundOct 09, 2007 8:40:57 | In some ways, leveling up begs the question of "taking over". Why aren't the villains all taking over everywhere if they are so powerful? Why do you assume that the villains want to take over? Werewolves aren't interested in taking over. A few days every month, they kill. Vampires can only take over so much before people learn to avoid their areas. Their tie to their own lairs keep them confined. Mummies and many undead haunt graveyards and tombs. Animals and vermin are just that. They don't take over. Extraplanar creatures usually don't want to be here at all, but enjoy the mayhem when they do get to be here. Human villains weigh the advantages of taking over with the disadvantages of having to manage a larger area. A small villain only takes what he can manage. The actual number of active conquerers is fairly small. Most villains don't want to destroy the world. The inherent nature of most MM creatures is to break the land into smaller territories, rather than kill everything. The maurauding giant doesn't care if there is a hydra in the local swamp. The hydra doesn't care about the wight in the nearby graveyard. Once an area is dangerous, its fairly easy for non-interfering monsters to live in the same area. That all brings us to classic D&D. |
| #40yakmanOct 09, 2007 11:08:07 | the solution to high level PCs and world breaking is to come to an agreement between dm and party that leveling be done by consensus and not experience point. when you hit the "sweet spot", where gaming is fun, challenging, and not ludicrously world bending, then a campaign can stay at that level indefinitely. if everyone is happy at level 12, why go to level 13? the game is about fun, not rules... |
| #41septembervirginNov 06, 2007 11:20:34 | Call Greyhawk points of light at your risk! Which city in Flanaess is safe inside the city for the citizens? Which city in Flanaess might you not expect to rub elbows with danger? Better dance blindfolded through the realm of Iuz than walk through the Free City of Greyhawk laden with bags of treasure and exhausted from adventure. In a points of light Campaign, Greyhawk would be a "point of light" and therefore entirely, entirely safe. Ha. Geoff isn't that safe even though liberated. Hommlet isn't that safe, despite its protectors. |
| #42tartessosNov 06, 2007 22:37:08 | Think of Greyhawk as a coloring book. We've both got the same pictures and the same crayons, yet we color it so differently. That's how many people see Greyhawk. We also color out things that we don't like or redraw them. This is what I find fun about Greyhawk. Well said, sir. I express hearty agreement. I have always considered Greyhawk to be PoL. Actually, let me correct: my group sort of vacillates between Points of Light and Strong States, depending on the needs of the story. For example, in the recent slew of games our 3 main GMs have been running a sort of "Return to Darkness" in the Dreadwood Preserve/Hool Marsh Protectorate area. The elves are being slaughtered by various humanoids as well as Lizard Men, led in part by a black dragon. All towns south of Dreadwood all the way to the Javan River are destroyed, and trade across that area is disrupted. Keoland is sending in forces from all over, but they are slow to arrive, and have not yet had an effect. I am not sure how this will end (one of the other two GMs is in charge of this particular plotline; the other and I are just following along). Tartessos aka Invictus |
| #43septembervirginNov 06, 2007 23:22:21 | It's not so much having the same coloring books and crayons and coloring it differently. Take a look at the way the DM's Guide for first edition AD&D portrays NPC and such things as NPC interactions with player characters. Even Lawful Good characters might not be so very giving and benign as one might hope in an ideal world. Also, consider the stronger influences on Gygax: fantasy noire and realistic and realpolitik concerns as regards medieval heroic fantasy. |
| #44cyberknight2000Nov 07, 2007 10:52:25 | Could we be taking a too literal view? Yes, we could be. I don't believe it was intended to express total anarchy a days ride from any habitation. Armed merchant caravans irregularly going from Greyhawk to Nyrond are not remotely the same level of communication between cities as a stagecoach line or regular pony express analogue. If military patrols are necessary within the borders of a Barony or City, it seems that one can make an easy transition to a point of light approach. |
| #45camthalionNov 07, 2007 13:38:44 | "It's been hours since you saw another soul on the River Road to the Free City of Greyhawk" (Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk, p. 11) Roll for initiative. |
| #46twg_prometheusNov 07, 2007 16:47:46 | Roll for initiative. 7 + my Dexterity modifier of 2. I get a 9. |
| #47netlichNov 08, 2007 1:56:40 | 7 + my Dexterity modifier of 2. I get a 9. Surely you have taken Improved Initiative... "It's been hours since you saw another soul on the River Road to the Free City of Greyhawk" (Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk, p. 11) [Mild spoiler alert] Yes but the module makes an assumption - that an army could hide within the Greyhawk ruins and that the Greyhawk forces would be slow to find out and respond. I can slightly fit it in my campaign by claiming that the intro scene you describe is the first major excursion of these creatures (I mean a spellcaster and a wyvern? So close when there is a castle with air cavalry scouts in the plains near Greyhawk? I cannot see that happening for too long). And the response is originally adventurers send out to investigate this "bandit force" before a more appropriate response is send out (like a few militia warriors and a couple of guild spellcasters). I cannot see this as a PoL concept. This army at your door (or bridge) would not stand for long with a city the size of Greyhawk. The Bright Desert? Yes. the Cairn Hills? Perhaps. But not the bridge leading to Greyhawk Ruins... that is too well-used. In general I cannot see anything between Harby an dGreyhawk as PoL...Go southwest from Harby and then yes you are asking for it...Go into Iuz's lands and you get tiny wisps of light where forces are hauled in and hidden... |
| #48pauln6Nov 08, 2007 5:08:30 | Because few of the nations have well-defined 'wilderness' areas, Greyhawk could easily be moved nearer to a Points of Light theme by just adding more dangerous detail to those regions. Forests, hills, swamps, and forests are easy to make more dangerous as 'civilised' populations are always tiny in comparison the total area. Further, although many civilised lands are made up of farmland and scrub, the total populations of these realms are relatively small, so the amount of farmland needed to feed them will similarly be quite small, and concentrated around sources of water for irrigation, depending on the climate. There are massive tracts of land that are nowhere near established trade routes. We can assume that these areas are havens to more dangerous creatures that can make moving along the trade routes eually dangerous unless the local lords are willing to fund regular, well-armed patrols (usually only along primary roads). |
| #49netlichNov 08, 2007 5:26:25 | Because few of the nations have well-defined 'wilderness' areas, Greyhawk could easily be moved nearer to a Points of Light theme by just adding more dangerous detail to those regions. Correct. I am still not 100% clear on what WotC intentions are but I am betting on what I have described in previous posts of mine on the subject as one of (to me) the driving forces behind it. They want to get the random encounter back in the game. I think that some of the people (probably affected by the apocalyptic treatment the poor FR-ians are being served) are taking this PoL too literal and expect a gritty DnD that is more like Athas or the Ravenloftian misty realms. I do hope they are wrong and WotC intends none of that. Each campaign setting has a flavor. Trying to abstract that to a core is wrong and I do hope this is not what is being done with this PoL concept of 4th edition. To me Greyhawk never was a PoL setting all in all. It was a medieval setting that had a heavier treatment of civilization and empires to it so that it had next to nothing to do with the Dark Ages of our world. Add a hefty but not overbalancing sword and sorcery dose to that and season to taste. Areas within the Flannaes could be classed PoL with various degrees. Others had nothing to do with it. In fact considering that it was a campaign setting of puzzle pieces added by different people's campaign settings in different times one can find it hard to class it as one homogeneous style of campaign. And this is why to me it was so great and I never changed preferences throughout my D&D years. I wanted really hard core PoL hmm ran an arc or two in Bone AMrch with small communities that for reason A or B could live within the chaos. More hard-core? Iuz? ex-Horned Society...Great Kingdom I wanted civilization? Veluna, Keoland the plains of Greyhawk, etc... I wanted fiefdoms and politics Furyondy; I wanted hard core territorial battles and involving armies and strategies post-Great Wars Furyondy again. and so on... |
| #50draxynnicNov 28, 2007 22:36:18 | ...especially if the military is off doing the only thing that everyone agrees on... Funny you should mention the last bit, in fact. I was thinking of Perrenland, myself. From a player's perspective: Up to around the middle of 594, it was staying out of the war against Iuz. It's borders were, theoretically, secure (expanding if anything). However, there are plenty of ruins and mysterious places out in the wilderness that could have pretty much anything in them, and modules that involved traveling between cities usually involved running into some kind of trouble on the way. Usually the sort of trouble that adventurers or a guarded caravan would be able to fend off... but certainly not encouraging to a bunch of commoners to go wandering around the place. And every so often, in a country that was supposedly at peace, the villagers didn't need to wander off in order to find trouble. And that's without going into the way that ol' Bob (Iuz to those who don't speak in code in order to avoid getting his attention) and his family were playing fast and loose with the terms of the peace agreement in order to meddle with Perrenese politics. But said peace agreement served its purpose - Perrenland had no unified military to speak of at the start of the Greyhawk Wars, but those eight years gave a chance to build one up. Halfway through 594, Perrenland enters to war. It suffers a reversal in the first battle, but manages to hold its external borders relatively intact. But remember all those ruins and places of mystery? With pretty much all the army sitting on the front line against Bob's forces? We're touching on storylines that haven't been completely retired yet, but let's just say the home front got very bad very quickly, and some of it quickly transformed from the home front into the western front... The moral: Just because the armies are successfully (we hope... this is all from the player's perspective) holding off some really big evil, doesn't mean things aren't going straight down by express handbasket at home. The armies aren't stopping the nations - in the Border States area, at least - from being/becoming PoL settings... they're allowing that setting to exist by holding back the tide of darkness that would otherwise extinguish the lot, and every so often, some of that darkness slips through... In other metaregions, your mileage may vary... but nothing in the NMR area makes me think any of that area is particularly safe either. And I challenge anyone to name an area in the Flanaess where the proverbial damsel with a sack of gold can cross without fearing for her life, money or virtue. (Assuming they are a first-level NPC-class rather than a high level spellcaster, of course...) |
| #51decivreNov 29, 2007 16:22:01 | I think the way they'll get the points of light thing across is by taking only certain parts of some well known campaign settings and turning them into the focal point for newer setting books. You want Points of Light in Greyhawk, then worship anyone other than Pholtus and take a vacation in the Pale. Or just go to Brightsands. Now that I think about it, there are plenty of campaign settings they can bring back that had a "Points of Light" style of gameplay *COUGH* Dark *COUGH* Sun *COUGH*. Personally I don't think that every campaign they'll be making from this point on will use that style of play though, because it doesn't always lend itself to what the players want to play. At least, I should hope not. |
| #52soltaresDec 06, 2007 13:00:08 | As I understand the Points of Light concept, post Greyhawk Wars / From the Ashes Greyhawk fits the idea quite well. Many enormously potent and hugely threatening evil forces, good kingdoms teetering on the brink, or totally collapsed entirely, turned into refugees and slaves, people afraid to leave their homes because slavers, giants, drow, orcs, Scarlet Brotherhood / Iuz / Aerdry / etc forces abound. The pre-Greyhawk Wars setting was almost Realmsian in it's non-Point-of-Light-iness, but after the big shakeup, the world got a *lot* less friendly to wandering people. Even the Elven peoples of Oerth are xenophobes hiding behind closed borders and running humans off at swordpoint, with Celene, the 'lothlorien' of Oerth being a dangerous place! Eberron, if thrust back into a war setting, would also qualify, but at the moment, particularly with lightning rails and airships, mainland Eberron is pretty far from a Points-of-Light setting. Xendrik, on the other hand, is totally a Points-of-Light setting, with Stormhold being the only 'point of light' around... The Realms don't really count. Their greatest threat are the Red Wizards of Wal-Mart, cruelly undercutting less organized wizards attempts at making a quick buck selling magic items. Those bastids! Less a Points of Light setting, so much as a Pointlessness of Too Much Light setting. |
| #53the_ubbergeekDec 11, 2007 21:53:36 | You really only know the stereotipes on FR. It have DARK places, as dark as GH. And GH can be as goody-goody. |
| #54acearDec 12, 2007 8:15:05 | You really only know the stereotipes on FR. I'm not quite sure what you mean. The areas that are dedicated to good are at best set close to the edge of having everything overturned. There are no large areas of light. |
| #55the_ubbergeekDec 12, 2007 14:02:07 | I'm not quite sure what you mean. The areas that are dedicated to good are at best set close to the edge of having everything overturned. There are no large areas of light. My point, really. Good is not as huge and solid as it is presented - it's at best mildly lighter than GH. |
| #56korielDec 16, 2007 14:08:55 | When Greyhawk was first released, the biggest issue I had with the setting was that the entire Flanaess appeared to be covered with nation-states and there appeared to be few tracks of wilderness to adventure in or carve out your own little domain. I saw it as totally non-PoL. With From the Ashes, huge areas fell under darkness and it created large territories of dangerous, uncivilized regions full of monsters and I rejoiced at this change. But there still appears to be large regions of light remaining. In our campaign, we introduced cataclysmic meteor strikes that put out much of that light and made it more like a harsh post-apocalyptic setting. If they want to reduce the light further into smaller points, then I welcome the change. |
| #57elondirDec 18, 2007 10:53:47 | Greyhawk wouldn't take much. Start with the 1e World of Greyhawk boxed set, enforce random encounter checking, and lower the profiles of the governments so that even though they claim lots of territory, most of it is wilderness. |
| #58acearDec 26, 2007 13:36:00 | Frankly I do not get even how one can propose to build this scenario of PoL in any setting (of course not looking into DarkSun or Ravenloft type of things) without some major modifications to the rules and system...or some major catastrophe that will again induce some rule changing I have to disagree. The armies that you speak of have been mostly decimated and held in check by Iuz. And the Circle of Eight will assist evil if is fits there plans. The way all the Greyhawk material presents itself is a world on the edge. Hell is trying to pull Oerth into one of it's planes. Lolth was almost sucessful in the same plot. As far as far reaching guilds, the Wizards Guild, the Assassin's Guild and the Thieves Guild are the only ones I would consider close to having the power you describe and two of the three are evil with the Wizards Guild being bearly Neutral. |
| #59chrono_nexusDec 27, 2007 6:54:39 | It seems to me that with all of this preexisting material for Greyhawk/FR, it would be counterintuitive to include them as POL campaign settings, if WotC wants a profit. |
| #60rob_douglasDec 27, 2007 11:24:22 | No, it seems clear WotC wants a new world they can call their own. What bugs me is writing a rules system around a campaign setting. The rules should, and in the past always have, worked in all different ones. Some of the things I am seeing would actually not work at all in Greyhawk, or change it to not look the same. No more half-orcs? Not even in the Pomarj? Seriously? But to the topic at hand, Greyhawk has always had a slightly PoL feel - in that you could have nasty random encounters and get killed even on the main, well-travelled roads of the good kingdoms. Sounds like PoL is the same, but nastier encounters on the roads, or removing the roads. It might actually work better as a past Greyhawk - Aerdi expansion timeframe, or right before, when the roads were not yet in place.... ROB |
| #61korielJan 05, 2008 10:58:48 | No, it seems clear WotC wants a new world they can call their own. What bugs me is writing a rules system around a campaign setting. The rules should, and in the past always have, worked in all different ones. Some of the things I am seeing would actually not work at all in Greyhawk, or change it to not look the same. No more half-orcs? Not even in the Pomarj? Seriously? They have written rules around campaign settings many times in the past: Dark Sun, Dragonlance, Spelljammer, Planescape, Oriental Adventures, Eberron. Basically, when the rules change beyond a certain point, you have to either come up with a new setting or make huge changes to an existing setting. When they made the transition between 1st & 2nd editions, they did some huge changes to some settings, and some settings went entirely out of print. Shoehorning in some major changes into an existing setting is really confusing. No one likes it when a familiar setting suddenly becomes unrecognizable. In 4th Edition, they're going to need a place to add current or former nations for tieflings and dragonborn. Due to a major change like this, I don't expect to see much support for Greyhawk in 4th Edition and I'm afraid it may just go out of print like so many other settings. |
| #62pauln6Jan 05, 2008 12:31:07 | Tieflings and Dragonborn as descendants of a great empire will not fit into Greyhawk. However, it is feasible that some minor Houses within the Great Kingdom might be tieflings (particularly since the devil Baalzebub is worshipped as the god Baalzy) or ancient Suel Houses might have made similar pacts, partularly the degenerate Suel House of Mahlel, which has links to the Far Realm. Dragonborn could be written into one of the jungle realms without too much difficulty. Alternatively, we know little about the far western realms, except that Jacindia has a South East Asian flavour. It would be easy to detail these realms a bit more to add more of a 4e feel. I think it will be relatively easy to convert to 4e overall. I am adjusting racial integration down quite a bit from 3e values. Some of the large human cities have thousands of elves (now largely eladrin since few wood elves live in the cities) dwarves, gnomes, and halflings in them just by reason of the percentages. I think I'd rather scale that down unless the settlements are specifically stated to have large non-human population. I think the points of light theme lends itself to more polarisation. I will also be looking back at 1e, 2e, and 3e 'wandering monster' tables to tweak them to make areas away from established trade routes an bit more dangerous. I don't think it will be much harder than that. |
| #63acearJan 14, 2008 13:07:34 | Tieflings and Dragonborn as descendants of a great empire will not fit into Greyhawk. However, it is feasible that some minor Houses within the Great Kingdom might be tieflings (particularly since the devil Baalzebub is worshipped as the god Baalzy) or ancient Suel Houses might have made similar pacts, partularly the degenerate Suel House of Mahlel, which has links to the Far Realm. Actually I wouldn't mind the Dragonborn poping out of the Sea of Dust. Poof, here we are, not like you would have had a method of looking for us, we're the only ones who could survive here. Perhaps they have a connection with the Valley of the Mage. As for the Tieflings, I'm surprised that more don't come from the Great Kingdom area. Perhaps they should just rap up the whole Rauxes storyline with a Tiefling jailbrake from the city after the break the magical barrier. |
| #64the_ubbergeekJan 14, 2008 20:06:37 | Considering the dark sides of Greyhawk, Tieflings seems very fitting... Dragonborns less obviously, but I saw nice sugestions there. |
| #65superukdalJan 28, 2008 14:28:30 | Many point to the vast "armies" in the greyhawk of various nations but all the adventures I have seen point to watchmen, average soldier as a 2nd level warrior (not even a 2nd level fighter?). How long would those last in game terms against a force of demons/devil/ high level mages&cleris/ dragons/undead 1/100th or even a 1/1000th of their size.....not very long. To the me the whole pts of light thing makes good sense in greyhawk as while as any other campaigns and large standing armies with heavily fort bases and logistics etc very little. The king is just going to kep a few 100 -300 high levelish former adventurers on retainer with grants of territory within kingdom as their own little fiefdoms/townships to defend the best they can and rule more or less as they see fit aka PoLs. Feudalism makes better sense than powerful nationstates since miltary power lies in exceptional individuals and not in the ability to marshal vast multititudes of warriors inside the games rules. Every entry from the gazeeteer for any kingdom that I can remember points to several haunted forest or somesuch within a day's ride of almost big cities/towns. Every map of greyhawk I have seen shows a whole more Brees out there than not. That point about population density early should be very compelling to most sane people. Greyhawk was a lot of "empty" space, and a lot of wierd **** in the MM to take that space up for rent. |
| #66ripvanwormerJan 28, 2008 19:40:29 | While I maintain that Greyhawk does have the feel of "islands of civilization in the midst of monster-haunted wilderness" that the "Points of Light" setting has, at least in most of the setting (there is the note in the LGG that the Aerdi cleared all the monsters away from the Flanmi river basin), the 4e team's design goals do differ from Gygax's in at least one crucial respect. Gygax vehemently desired a human-dominated world (which was the reason for the demihuman level limits in the Player's Handbook), while the 4e team just as vehemently don't want humans to dominate the default world of 4e. In the "points of light" setting, the last human empire crumbled to ruins long ago, and humans are just one of many races who inhabit the world of the present. |
| #67acearJan 30, 2008 8:10:13 | While I maintain that Greyhawk does have the feel of "islands of civilization in the midst of monster-haunted wilderness" that the "Points of Light" setting has, at least in most of the setting (there is the note in the LGG that the Aerdi cleared all the monsters away from the Flanmi river basin), the 4e team's design goals do differ from Gygax's in at least one crucial respect. Gygax vehemently desired a human-dominated world (which was the reason for the demihuman level limits in the Player's Handbook), while the 4e team just as vehemently don't want humans to dominate the default world of 4e. In the "points of light" setting, the last human empire crumbled to ruins long ago, and humans are just one of many races who inhabit the world of the present. I have to agree with you on this. And til someone put thier finger on this, did I realize that I perfered that form of fantasy over what has been suggested for the new game "world". In that case I do think that it is best that WOTC is not putting Greyhawk through the ringer to get it out with the kick off of 4e. I would rather have a 4e Greyhawk that dovetails the best of both concepts than a complete redo. |
| #68blackzeroFeb 25, 2008 12:33:43 | One small point about Greyhawk. In the early 90s Carl Sargent most definitely conceived a POL Greyhawk. The most powerful centralized authorities were ravaged, communication and trade broke down and Greyhawk was thrown from a high Medieval/Early Rennaissance level to a Dark Ages level with various places remaining as bastions of civilization (eg. Veluna). A little towards the end of 2nd Eds run the Central Flannaess recovers from this somewhat but never at the level of achieving the state it was in prior to the 'From the Ashes' setting. I never got the sense that Greyhawk ever fully recovered form the Wars and when I run in the setting it is most definitely a POL setting. BlackZero |
| #69rob_douglasFeb 26, 2008 12:47:40 | I see it as related to POL, but that idea puts forth that there is no central authority on which to rely - such as the King of Furyondy, Archcelric of Veluna, King of Nyrond, etc. I do agree that even traveling within the civilized lands is dangerous, and filled with monsters and thieves - and the old Great Kingdom, Shield Lands, Iuz lands, bone March - they are all much worse, much more POL. But it doesn't fit well that there are no kingdoms, no armies other than small defensive structures, etc. ROB |
| #70acearMar 05, 2008 6:33:03 | E.G.G. Rest in Peace. |
| #71CCSMar 05, 2008 9:09:50 | B) Pick any village on the map in the Flanaess and I'll prove it's not PoL. I doubt that. My current campain, set within the Sea Princes holds is fairly PoL. Sure, some of the characters have more knowledge of far away lands than others, and the elf scout definitly hails from far away, and of course they've all heard tales of GH city itself..... But overall none of them actually know what's going on in the world. Nor do most of the NPCs they encounter. Two hexes away? It's just as much an unknown to the general population as 20, 30, or 50+ hexes is. And I can, and have, run entire campaigns set on the Greyhawk map that are completely PoL. Infact I was doing this well before 3.x Well, guess what? The GH setting hasn't changed terribly much in all the years I've been playing. So I assure you that it'll be just as PoL should I use it as a 4e setting. For that matter I can run a 3.5 FR campaign (or Dragonlance) the exact same way. You could go from lv1 to 20+ at my table & never realize that you were in the heart of the FR..... Do you know why? Because it's all in the DMs presentation. |