It is said that the Bonehearts are gathering more forces for some unseen enemy or war. Now while that may not seem like a big deal as they often do build up before they attack the various nations surrounding them my sources say that they are not building up to go to war but to help defend their territory . . .
The fiends that Old Wicked still has influence over have been seen in the far reaches of Oerth. They are not concocting devious plans to manipulate the local constabulary but instead seem to be searching for something. Many have been seen in areas of high concentration of the Scarlet Brotherhood and in the Yatil Mountains . . . (A Sudden Turn of Events)
People on these forums tend to have a low opinion of WOTC, but I don't think that anyone is stupid or nasty enough to get rid of a whole campaign setting without some motive beyond "We can't be bothered to support it".
Just as a side-note, I had an idea for a campaign involving the imprisonment of Tharizdun, in the City of the Gods in Blackmoor. Iuz was also involved, trying to keep Tharizdun imprisoned. Tharizdun's method of destroying the Flanaess? The Land of Black Ice expanding and covering the Flanaess in a new (black) ice age. It was Beory who kept the black ice at bay with volcanic activity. Now you know why there are geothermal hotspots in Blackmoor....
That won't happen in my WoG. (On the flip-side, "points-of-light" also won't happen to my FR, either. If all else fails, I'll take a page from the "Toril merges with another world to become Abier-Toril once more", and drop the Flanaess and Hepmonaland across the Realms' Great Sea, merging it with the Solonor Ocean. Boccob takes Mystra's place as FR's deity of magic, and with that, new ways of doing things have to be tried out, hence the alteration and lessening of Vancian spellcasting to nullify Tharizdun's attempt at snuffing WoG's magic.)
I don't think that Tharizdun can destroy the Oerth/Flanaess, but it has been foretold that eventually he will succeed in destroying magic (in the WoG.)
In the Gord books, Tharizdun not only destroyed the oerth, but the entire cosmos surrounding it... much like 4e is doing to the great wheel. Hmmm.
He was the stuff of entropy, as in disorder, not the dispersion of energy of chemistry. In the process of him being freed, he literally destroyed the multiverse peice by peice, drawing it into his realm of entropy until nothing at all existed. That and he made the souls of some major demons and devils into yeth hounds that served him, so Iuz would definately be afraid.
Halber
He was the stuff of entropy, as in disorder, not the dispersion of energy of chemistry. In the process of him being freed, he literally destroyed the multiverse peice by peice, drawing it into his realm of entropy until nothing at all existed. That and he made the souls of some major demons and devils into yeth hounds that served him, so Iuz would definately be afraid.
Halber
So, if he burps we are in a Points of Light setting. That's convenient.
on this. I think that Greyhawk, unlike so many of the other worlds of bygone editions will survive if for no other reason then to serve as a basis for the core setting much like they did with 3e. I can't really do much more then speculate here unfortunately but my guess would be that they will release an updated Greyhawk Gazetteer and leave it in the same holding pattern that it's been in. From a marketing perspective it makes sense to do it because so many of us old hats keep poring through books looking for updated references to the campaign worlds we grew up with while to FR and Eb players are still going to buy their campaign expansion materials.To much of the core material is tied up with names like Vecna and Moderkanian, Bibgy and Tensor. True, they could introduce alternate histories to retcon those characters into the Forgotten Realms or Ebberon or explain away the names being of the names of long dead archmages from the past but it hardly seems worth the effort, not to mention the fact that it would probably **** off a lot of the Forgotten Realms die hards out there because of the violation to cannon it would be to both worlds.
By the way, I loved DrowBattlemind's idea of merging FR and WoG. I am getting ready to start up a new campaign in about two weeks and honestly love both settings so I think that I may be stealing that idea. It provides a lot of inspiration to the new plot line I am working on.
Thanks!Here's my
To much of the core material is tied up with names like Vecna and Moderkanian, Bibgy and Tensor. True, they could introduce alternate histories to retcon those characters into the Forgotten Realms or Ebberon or explain away the names being of the names of long dead archmages from the past but it hardly seems worth the effort, not to mention the fact that it would probably **** off a lot of the Forgotten Realms die hards out there because of the violation to cannon it would be to both worlds.
By the way, I loved DrowBattlemind's idea of merging FR and WoG. I am getting ready to start up a new campaign in about two weeks and honestly love both settings so I think that I may be stealing that idea. It provides a lot of inspiration to the new plot line I am working on.
Except TPTB have already discussed that there will be no "Core" setting in 4e, and that setting-specific names are being stripped from the core material. This means, among other things (assuming these make it in to the new books), that Tenser will no longer be held responsible for Floating Disks, that Obad-Hai will be a universal deity instead of a Greyhawk one, and that the names mentioned will be intended to apply to all settings.
Of course, that doesn't mean that we can't do what we want in our home games. ;)
I really hope Greyhawk is spared and does not make it to the new edition.
You mean killed, terminated, expired, retired, canned, swept under the floor, dropped into a hole, chucked it into the river, tossed aside, etc.
Now I heard that RPGA is adapting Farune instead. I hope this is a good news and the information regarding Greyhawk is more openly published in the shape of supplement books.
One of the problem of Greyhawk in 3.0e/3.5e was, the world did not get much true supplement books but information was released through magazines and RPGA materials.
In addition to the thick-bound Living Greyhawk Gazetteer and thin-n-staplebound Greyhawk Gazetteer, as well as information scattered among the core supplement products, whether it is 3.0e Sword and Fist or 3.5e Complete Warrior.
That's because for some reason WotC cut off funding to RPGA, which were responsible for maintaining and developing the Greyhawk line for 3e.
Now I heard that RPGA is adapting Farune instead. I hope this is a good news and the information regarding Greyhawk is more openly published in the shape of supplement books.
Oh, gawd I hope not ... unless WotC reinstated their promise to fund RPGA for print publishing.
Even then, I don't want what happened to Greyhawk in 3e to happen to FR for 4e. If Living Forgotten Realms will be established for 4e, give them a tiny portion of the realm to play with, like Raven's Bluff.
For me, all the Greyhawk's "widely available" material for 3.0e/3.5e were those not-so attractive and not-so well written 2 Gazetteers, and both of them were 3.0e books and not 3.5e.
On the other hand, Farune and Ebberron got a lot more beautiful world guide book full of information and rules which can be actually used on game table. And got a lot more books for them, too.
Frankly speaking, I don't like systems like RPGA. The information of the background world should be actually published. Not made as "available only for the close members of a hard-core-fun group". Magazine is not the best option, too. Many shops don't hold much backnumber of them even if they are selling almost all the published supplements from WotC. Availability is largely different.
For me, all the Greyhawk's "widely available" material for 3.0e/3.5e were those not-so attractive and not-so well written 2 Gazetteers, and both of them were 3.0e books and not 3.5e.
Why were they not well written?
And both had so little rules content as to make the 3E vs 3.5 aspect irrelevant. Except for one specific error where it was believed assassin would be a class and one NPC is described as one, there is nothing in there that is edition dependent. Even the classes and domains could only be described as core, and the 3E and 3.5 core are the same, as opposed to expansion.
Frankly speaking, I don't like systems like RPGA. The information of the background world should be actually published. Not made as "available only for the close members of a hard-core-fun group". Magazine is not the best option, too. Many shops don't hold much backnumber of them even if they are selling almost all the published supplements from WotC. Availability is largely different.
The background information on Greyhawk was actually published. They just did not publish expansion material.
A great deal of that expansion was available for anyone, members or not, of the RPGA. You could get it at the various regional websites. The information beyond that was available to all members of the RPGA, by region, and who were 18 and older and ordered adventures to run.
The background information on Greyhawk was actually published. They just did not publish expansion material.
A great deal of that expansion was available for anyone, members or not, of the RPGA. You could get it at the various regional websites. The information beyond that was available to all members of the RPGA, by region, and who were 18 and older and ordered adventures to run.
That does not work for foreign players and foreign DMs like me not all of who's players have acces to internet and/or more importantly, have some trouble on reading English materials.
DnD core rules and supplements (though not all) have Japanese edition. But there is no RPGA site written in Japanese language.
I think even in English speaker's countly, "use internet" is not a right attitude to support the main wold.
That does not work for foreign players and foreign DMs like me not all of who's players have acces to internet and/or more importantly, have some trouble on reading English materials.
DnD core rules and supplements (though not all) have Japanese edition. But there is no RPGA site written in Japanese language.
I think even in English speaker's countly, "use internet" is not a right attitude to support the main wold.
So none of the other web enhancements count?
Are they all available in Japanese?
The last is going to make the whole D&DI rather troublesome.
So none of the other web enhancements count?
Are they all available in Japanese?
The last is going to make the whole D&DI rather troublesome.
Almost no web-enhancements are available in Japanese language. Because unless sold as the shape of books, Japanese publisher cannot make profit and thus those "free" materials cannot be translated (translators don't work without payment). Erratas for the books published in Japanese language are translated and posted on the web of the Japanese publisher. And as Japanese edition of a certain supplement is often made moths after the publish date of English edition, many of the erratas are already applied when Japanese edition is made.
And in some cases, web-enhancement part of a supplement is actually translated and added as appendix pages in that Japanese edition supplement. And when a web-enhancement does not need much additional translation (like those for Red Hand of Doom), Japanese edition of them are made and posted on web, too. But not always.
So yes, if DnD4e relies too much on web-enhancements and web materials, it may ruin Japanese DnD communities. Or rather, I am afraid of that Japanese publisher must withdraw from making Japanese edition of DnD. Japanese publishers don't have enough funds to invest on translating that much free to be downloaded materials.
I doubt Greyhawk could change that policy by itself.
So it is not a Greyhawk specific problem, but a general WotC translation issue.
I doubt Greyhawk could change that policy by itself.
I don't think so. Not so many Greayhawk-related books were published during 3.0e/3.5e period and one of the reason is that this world is supported by RPGA and paizo articles. Instead, there were many Farune related supplments published from WotC themselves. Now, if RPGA adapts Farune, once the first year of Farune-product rush is gone, I hope greyhawk-related support will be done as actual form of supplement books by WotC. Just my optimistic view, though.
Except TPTB have already discussed that there will be no "Core" setting in 4e, and that setting-specific names are being stripped from the core material. This means, among other things (assuming these make it in to the new books), that Tenser will no longer be held responsible for Floating Disks, that Obad-Hai will be a universal deity instead of a Greyhawk one, and that the names mentioned will be intended to apply to all settings.
Of course, that doesn't mean that we can't do what we want in our home games. ;)
If you've seen "Races and Classes" now, you know that the core books are hardly going to be generic. It's clear that WotC is building a new campaign setting as its default setting.
I quoted some bits from the preview book in another thread, so you can look there if you haven't seen it. The book refers to the ruined human empire of Nerath, the dragonborn empire of Arkhosia and the tiefling empire of Bael Turath. So they're not going generic, they're just replacing Greyhawk with something of their own making.
Except TPTB have already discussed that there will be no "Core" setting in 4e, and that setting-specific names are being stripped from the core material. This means, among other things (assuming these make it in to the new books), that Tenser will no longer be held responsible for Floating Disks, that Obad-Hai will be a universal deity instead of a Greyhawk one, and that the names mentioned will be intended to apply to all settings.
Of course, that doesn't mean that we can't do what we want in our home games. ;)
That does not seem to be the case, based on the Wizard's Presents: Races & Classes book. In it they give back story, empire names, location names and a bunch of other setting specific stuff in regards to both races and classes.
yeah, you never heard anything about Greyhawk. I started running Living Greyhawk and still never heard anything about it really. It was dead. They never touched it with a stick besides RPGA mods. Greyhawk was kinda ignored. I had to fight to get people at my store to even think about playing it, as many of them had been fed the Forgotten Realms for so long. I fought hard and got people playing and loving the game finally. Greyhawk was just getting accepted and loved. What happens? They announce the end of Living Greyhawk, the coming of 4e, and LG's replacement with "Living Realms" the setting I'd had to fight for so long against. I put too much work in for it to be tossed aside so casually.
Not to rain on your parade but as someone who is not a RPGA member, I didn't like it as a member-only setting, or so it is perceived. Didn't liked it when WotC handed over the setting to RPGA, then later cut their funding, which is why the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer is the only 3e GH product commercially available.
And while it is supported through the core line, it feels so scattered about.
I hope that in their promise to introduce one setting a year, that Greyhawk will have a chance to be one of them, hopefully in two years.
P.S. I now fear that FR may suffer the same mistreatment now that is a RPGA Living campaign. Honestly, they're better off pushing a Living Eberrron campaign, of which I have absolutely no interest with.
P.S. I now fear that FR may suffer the same mistreatment now that is a RPGA Living campaign. Honestly, they're better off pushing a Living Eberrron campaign, of which I have absolutely no interest with.
Actually, I think they should stop "living" campaign at all. This is indeed the most popular RPG and millions of copies of core rules are sold world-wide, and many PC and console games are made. Why one of it's world setting should suffer from that out-of-date closed-fun-group activity?
And, personally, if one setting should go on to their hand I am happy to hand Farune to RPGA. That is the least interesting world for me as a DM and as a player. Players of my play group want THEIR PCs to be heros. Not the pinch-hitter when that dark skinned elf or hammer helden barbarian are unavailable for unknown reason. As a world setting for RPG, I don't like to have much "famous heros of justice".
To be honest the Living Greyhawk campaign has also not had any effect on the Greyhawk campaign setting either. WOTC has chosen not to publish any Greyhawk setting material besides the few products that came out at the beginning of Third Edition and the Return to Greyhawk Ruins product. Mostly this was done I suspect for two reasons. 1. Because they figured they would make more money with Forgotten Realms and other interests, and 2. Not to step on the Living Greyhawk promotional program.
Regardless there is no need to produce more Greyhawk materials. All of the previous Greyhawk materials are for sale by WOTC in PDF editions and that wealth of information would keep you busy gaming forever. The same is doubly true for the Forgotten Realms. They have covered everything in the Forgotten Realms three or four times and some things as much as six times. The player's guide to the Forgotten Realms was a really sinful example of double dipping. Not even a full edition different.
Greyhawk will always be around. It just probably will not be in a hardcover 4E book.
-Roger
Greyhawk will always be around. It just probably will not be in a hardcover 4E book.
-Roger
That is problem. It will be ok if all (or most of) the member of a certain play group are the same for decades and also having no problem on accessing PDF files. I am an old DnD fun and prefer to play in Greyhawk rather than to be in FR (Sometimes, Eberron is ok as occasional change). I have been having trouble introducing Greyhawk world to new players during these 3.Xe ages.
Even today, many says it is much easier to read physical books than to read PDFs, and printing PDF take much time and inconvenient. Also, unless good colorful books are actually published, not so many new players are interested in Greyhawk.
What is worse. I am Japanese. I can read english materials without much problems. But most of my players can not. Many of the popular supplement books got Japanese editions (actually, many of FR and Eberron supplements got their Japanese edition). But PDFs shown free by WotC will never translated into Japanese language as that kind of activities never profit neither Japanese publisher nor translator.
The last one is a local problem. But anyway, I don't think PDF archive is enough for Greyhawk funs' needs. 4E books, much better than those crappy 3e Greyhawk books, should be needed.
Regardless there is no need to produce more Greyhawk materials.
Hmph. I disagree. Just as D&D continues to evolve in future editions' change, so too must Greyhawk.
The only living campaign I can accept is the continuation of Raven's Bluff.
Hmph. I disagree. Just as D&D continues to evolve in future editions' change, so too must Greyhawk.
I am not so certain about that. I consider the last two releases of Greyhawk as 'stability' releases. The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer was faithful to the Adventure Begins. It provided a more or less calm and certain starting point for game masters. The boxed sets before that had massive changes in them. These massive changes almost never were inline with what game masters were doing in their own campaigns. Wizards had planned to make some changes to the Ebberon setting and move the time table forward and players and game masters complained about even the slightest rumors of that. I think people like some stability in their settings. I know I do.
-Roger
Iuz has been overreaching himself quite a bit. For quite a few years, most of Iuz's neighbours (those that haven't had their own internal problems) have been pushing back his forces.
This isn't quite as impressive as it sounds, as Iuz was actually distracted for a while trying to claim himself a domain of his own in the Abyss. The last PC involvement in that was a Year 5 module, and while I can't remember quite how badly off he was after that, he ended up with Pazuzu angry at him and his trump card removed from the equation. Since then, Iuz metaregional modules have, with one exception, been completely lacking in any direct appearances of Old Ugly or his minions.
That's not to say Tharizdun couldn't be what Iuz is worried about, but it could be that he's just staring down the barrel of a counterattack from one of the few lords of the Abyss who doesn't need to worry (much) about being backstabbed by his peers in the process.
Let's also not forget the Greyhawk Ruins plot has a possible profound impact on Iuz, potentially tying him up for several months during which time a lot could happen back home.
Groovy. We so badly need an offical run-down on the outcomes of the core and meta-regional mods. I'm hopin that once 4e takes over and LG winds down some kindly people will produce an 'official' chronology for those of us who were not able to participate. Some of the plots look really interesting and could have wide ranging effects if people choose to add them to their home campaigns.
I think we're going to see a lot of debate on this one as the campaign closes (as much as I hope that the LG storylines become part of the history in the new campaign setting). I've spoken to many who wish, for story reasons, that LG never happened, and there is some question as to how the current legal mumbo-jumbo (that rights to the non-Greyhawk stuff reverts to the authors after the mod retires) will affect WotC's ability to make events part of canon. I suppose only time will tell (again, vote for "include LG in canon" here)...
I think we're going to see a lot of debate on this one as the campaign closes (as much as I hope that the LG storylines become part of the history in the new campaign setting). I've spoken to many who wish, for story reasons, that LG never happened, and there is some question as to how the current legal mumbo-jumbo (that rights to the non-Greyhawk stuff reverts to the authors after the mod retires) will affect WotC's ability to make events part of canon. I suppose only time will tell (again, vote for "include LG in canon" here)...
I have a hard time heeding complaints about Living Greyhawk's effect on the canon of the setting. Bluntly put, most people with that complaint seem to have no notion of what Living Greyhawk has done with the world and would be opposed to any change to the setting at all. The legal problems are of course much more real.
Some of the Living Greyhawk modules have been relatively poor in quality, but those typically affect very small areas of the world and, likely, wouldn't even be mentioned in a campaign world update. The larger plot arcs that I've seen including Core arcs, the civil war in Nyrond, and the Troll Winter in the Pale have been pretty decent as far as quality goes.
If anyone can point to an actual example of a change that Living Greyhawk has made to the setting that is actively bad for it, with a well reasoned argument for why the change is negative I'd consider their opinion. Vague allegations that Living Greyhawk has been a disaster for the Greyhawk setting are inane and shouldn't be paid any attention.
As for the RPGA being a closed-group activity, that statement is false as a matter of fact. People can choose to exclude themselves from the RPGA as they elect to do so, but they aren't being denied entry unless, possibly, they have been banned for misbehavior.
Personally I'm equally interested in the names of locations and npcs to add spice to my home made gazeteer. There might be issues about using the names of npcs but I hope that it's not going to be a major problem.
My only problem with LG is that out of necessity every nation ended up with a wizard school, bard school, monastery etc. It diluted the flavour of pre-existing institutions like the Zashasir of Ekbir and I might whittle away at those in my home campaign. I have no problem with somebody having to travel from Furyondy to Greyhawk to learn how to be a wizard.
I have reservations about killing off the Countess of Urnst... twice... in such a short space of time but most of the County's plots looked really interesting. I don't think I'd mind too much if I had a better overview of how the rest of the County's plots developed.
I love the tidbits I am hearing here and have heard, and I want to know more. Nyrond went into a civil war? Cool. Couldn't happen to a nicer country. *evil* ;) Killing off the Countess of Urnst, hadn't thought of that, I could use that. I know the Pale went to war and annexed part or most of Tenh. These are things that fall out of the setting, and advance the story. I would love to see all this written up in a nice summary format, even something like the Greyawk Wars document - 8 pages that summarized the whole event.
I do think that a lot of the naysayers are people who want the setting to remain static - keep it at a particular year, don't advance it, and just provide support for new areas. I am sure that the quality of the ideas from LG were top notch, even if the execution may not have been (which I only know from hearsay). At least it was somewhat peer reviewed to make sense. I would now like to use those activities in my campaign as background.
So anyone have a quick recap of the major events of the last 10 years in Greyahawk?!
ROB
I am sure that the quality of the ideas from LG were top notch, even if the execution may not have been (which I only know from hearsay). At least it was somewhat peer reviewed to make sense. I would now like to use those activities in my campaign as background.
Well…I won’t claim that all of the campaign’s ideas have been top notch. There are pressures on the Triad and Circle to get modules out on a particular schedule for cons and, at times, the writing has admittedly faltered. There were other smaller-scale adventures that had really great writing, but they’re ultimately unimportant to the campaign as a whole. As I stated before, however, I think that the writing for the larger events…the stuff that highlights the LG experience for most players…is generally pretty good.
I’m not a good source for LG history generally, but I have been playing for the last few years so I know some of the more recent stuff. I’m culling out a lot of the adventures I could possibly talk about for a couple reasons. Some of them didn’t have a far-reaching impact. Others had a bigger impact, but in the end the adventurers won the day and nothing much changed. Some others I just didn’t understand at all when all was said and done, which could either be a problem with the module or, potentially, it could just be that the Judge in question didn’t give all the available information about what happened. I’m also being intentionally vague about some adventures because they’re still in play and/or I don’t know which outcome actually occurred.
Another one I’m not telling about because untold evils might be unleashed on the Flanaess if the secret was known….
Civil War in Nyrond: This started at the very end of CY594 (2004) and dominated Nyrond’s regional play for the next year. Prince Sewarndt staged a coup in Rel Mord and took over the nation, with the assistance of supporters including Hextorites and the Scarlet Brotherhood. He also had support from a pretty good contigent of devils and orc mercenaries, some of which we’re still hunting down. At the end of CY595 (2005) they had a big region-wide interactive where Lynwerd and his Heironean supporters assaulted Rel Mord (following a series of adventures leading up to the final attack) and managed to kill the Usurper and regain the throne for Lynwerd. I wasn’t playing yet so I didn’t get to participate in the attack on Rel Mord, but from what I understand that interactive cost the lives of many PCs and the outcome was in doubt.
Shadows of the Dread Spiral: Another one I don’t know much about because I didn’t participate, but this one was a Core con-exclusive adventure where adventurers went into a Temple of Tharizdun in the Yatil Mountains. (I think this was the Temple of Elemental Evil but I could be off.) At any rate, the adventurers failed to complete their mission and the shadowy influence of Tharizdun is leaking noticeably into the world in that area.
Turrosh Mak: Not concluded yet, and more adventures about this are being released at D&D XP. Turrosh Mak mobilized his forces and destroyed Narwell with a massive army he’d gathered. Further attacks out of the Pomarj, particularly up through Safeton, were expected but none came. Now it appears that Turrosh Mak is calling for peace, but his sudden reversal is suspicious at best.
Blight on Bright Sands: Rary the Traitor has been making moves to conquer the Bright Lands region, and has been pushing his influence into Hardby as well. Lady Karistyne, a Paladin of Heironeous with holdings in the Abbor-Alz, is opposing him and both are competing over artifacts from the ancient Ur-Flan Sulmite Empire. I still haven’t played the last part of this and I don’t know what the actual outcome of the adventure path was anyway.
If the legal issues can be sorted out, hopefully a more complete version of this will be available sometime after the campaign expires at the end of this year. Even some people who prefer that no changes are made to the Greyhawk setting might find material they would like to adapt for some of the regions that had little development prior to LG.
At the very least it'd be nice if people waited until then before naming LG an unmitigated disaster.
Some of the LG sites are quite good at listing major events to date while others produce timelines on thier Yahoo groups. I think Geoff and Onnwal have pretty good timelines and there was talk of the Shield Lands doing one. In addition, Geoff and Keoland produce 'Teasers' which allude to upcoming plots which are great fun to read.
I really hope the LG people feel proud of what they've achieved when it winds down instead of feeling grumpy that the rug was pulled. I really want to see the results!
First, the difficulty in non-RPGA members to gain access to modules,
Second, the difficulty in non-RPGA members in my area to become RPGA members and have their membership cards/numbers acknowledged when trying to gain access at the website (a DEFINITE problem we had here in southern Missouri [Springfield] during 3rd Ed.),
and Third, the perceived feeling we had every time we looked at RPGA Campaign Standards, where it became obvious (or so it seemed) that the RPGA was more about what you COULDN'T play than what you could play (a sad, sad holdout to the mentality of 1st & 2nd Ed. AD&D). Third Ed (and 4E, hopefully) to me is more about possibilities, not limitations.
Except TPTB have already discussed that there will be no "Core" setting in 4e, and that setting-specific names are being stripped from the core material.This means, among other things (assuming these make it in to the new books), that Tenser will no longer be held responsible for Floating Disks
I don't think they've said that, actually. I mean, yes on "no core setting," but I think they've specifically said that they're retaining legacy names like Heward and Tenser. They've specifically mentioned Mordenkainen's Sword in a 4e context, though that was early on.
At the GenCon Indy Q&A, the question of whether Greyhawk will be the the default world was avoided, however Greyhawk proper names will remain -- "Greyhawk will not be default setting in core. We want to leverage the assets of the assumed parts of a D&D world – Mordenkainen, Bigby, Vecna, Lolth, Tiamat, Asmodeus, etc."
- [source].
"Vancian magic system – there’s an element of that we held on to, but it’s a much smaller fraction of their overall power. A wizard will never completely run out of spells. They can run out of their Mordenkainen’s sword, however”
The main point of your post - that Greyhawk won't be 4e core and that there won't be any real core setting - is accurate, but I think in the same way that Pelor and Vecna will be considered generic gods (Obad-Hai seems to be out), Mordenkainen and Tenser will be considered generic wizards. Just like the Temple of Elemental Evil will be considered a generic temple, and the Isle of Dread will be considered a generic island (which it already is, existing on both Oerth and Mystara).
I don't think there will be a 4e incarnation of Greyhawk, partly for that reason, but mostly because I think WotC has no idea how to develop or market the setting at present.
Edit: although they've said this -
Q: How did Ruins of Greyhawk do?
A: Did well, don’t have exact numbers. Greyhawk is still on the table as a campaign setting.
- http://www.critical-hits.com/2008/02/28/dd-xp-seminar/
I still don't think anyone currently at WotC knows enough about Greyhawk to be able to design for it, but if they subcontract out to freelancers it could happen.
The changes to the cosmos and alignment can be worked in more subtly. Just rule that what used to be envisioned as a Great Wheel was only a convenience, not a geometric reality of the planar relationships in n-space. So all the elemental planes are really one plane - not a problem, what adventurers thought were different planes in the past were really just different pockets of elemental chaos. That is all easy to handle. But removing gods and nations from the world would be too much.
At least Greyhawk didn't have a special magic system to be overthrown. I think you can just assume that all spellcasters have always been the way they now are in 4E and be done with it. No need to "explain the change".
And you can still enforce race/class restrictions, and use racial enmity, etc. And use Eladrin for Queen Yolande, et al. And not have a nation of Tieflings, or Dragonborn. They just have to let the designers do that. I worry that if WotC makes a default Greyhawk, they won't let that happen. They will require more correspondence to the new Core.
ROB
So anyway, the newer people like Forgotten Realms and Eberron more than the aged Greyhawk.
I still don't think anyone currently at WotC knows enough about Greyhawk to be able to design for it, but if they subcontract out to freelancers it could happen.
Just any freelancers?
ROB
I think the thought everyone has for freelancers are tried and true Greyhawk authors.
Gygax? He's moved on.
Sargent? Currently hiding, whereabout unknown.
Best option - Paizo folks. But there are also many Canonfire authors that I would trust with the setting, if they had the time or were willing to quit their day jobs! It would be a job of work.
Do they have the cojones?
As for the others, we shall see - first you have to convince WotC to lease them the rights. Apparently, the last time they were asked by Paizo, they said no.
ROB
I meant Erik Mona and company, not Gygax and Sargent. Or James Jacobs, Sean Reynolds (though some would object strongly, at least he cares about Greyhawk) and others published in Dragon/Dungeon magazine, etc.
I dunno. Though some (me, for instance) liked Erik's contribution through Dragon and Dungeon magazine Greyhawk articles, many others did not.
As far as I know he did a very good job up to now. You may want to recall, that balancing an evil pover with another evil one is not the best idea!
Well I wish you happy gaming with what is to come.
You can go back and play in the days after the Invoked Devestation, before the Great Kingdom was established. The world must have been more Points of Light like then....
ROB
Meh - I'm restoring 1e population levels and demi-human distributions. Once you do that, most nations are very sparsely populated and more suitable to a PoL campaign. All you need to do is review the wandering monster tables from 1e, 2e, 3e, and 4e to come up with a table that plops some dangerous monsters around if you wander away from the established roads and waterways.
LGG population numbers are already suitable for Points of Light. Most nations have population densities under 20 per square mile. That is well below sparse.
Not tomorrow, but soon.
Even then, I don't want what happened to Greyhawk in 3e to happen to FR for 4e. If Living Forgotten Realms will be established for 4e, give them a tiny portion of the realm to play with, like Raven's Bluff.
Better yet, give them an area that hasn't been detailed at all. By anybody.
Lord knows the FR continant map already has plenty of spaces labled as "Unknown Lands" on it. Let's re-name one of those places "RPGA Land", let them do whatever the hell they like, & continue our play happily uneffected.
My main problem with the RPGA's "Living" campaigns for 3E/3.5 is three-fold.
First, the difficulty in non-RPGA members to gain access to modules,
Second, the difficulty in non-RPGA members in my area to become RPGA members and have their membership cards/numbers acknowledged when trying to gain access at the website (a DEFINITE problem we had here in southern Missouri [Springfield] during 3rd Ed.),
and Third, the perceived feeling we had every time we looked at RPGA Campaign Standards, where it became obvious (or so it seemed) that the RPGA was more about what you COULDN'T play than what you could play (a sad, sad holdout to the mentality of 1st & 2nd Ed. AD&D). Third Ed (and 4E, hopefully) to me is more about possibilities, not limitations.
This is completely true, and made even more aggravating for people in the following situations:
1. In foreign countries with virtually no RPGA communities, where it is possible to get a membership but.... upgradinbg to the level where you can download adventures? Forget it, never seen it here (Portugal). I would like to be involved and to have access to those adventures, which is nearly impossible here, and made all the worse especially since...
2. Membership is almost strictly tied to current rules sets. I use 1st edition rules, not 3e. I do own a lot of 3e materials, I know the rules OK, I am willing to buy product and pay memberships and be involved with the RPGA, but my ability to be is partly based.... on my ability to master 3e rules?
I think few people at WotC realize the amount of animosity this sort of thing creates in gamers in situations like me, who in other circumstances would be more than happy to be a part of the community. It's not like it would be a really hard thing to do.
Obviously from my point of view, it matters not all whether Greyhawk makes it or not. I own all the products from previous editions, my campaign took very different turns from published materials - and that was way back when in the very early 90's - and I can certainly go on playing as is. But I loved stuff like Castle Maure, and I'd be more than happy to have access to Greyhawk RPGA adventures. Unfortunately, never could, never probably will.
Better yet, give them an area that hasn't been detailed at all. By anybody.
Lord knows the FR continant map already has plenty of spaces labled as "Unknown Lands" on it. Let's re-name one of those places "RPGA Land", let them do whatever the hell they like, & continue our play happily uneffected.
Well, Sembia have been largely ignored, mainly because Ed and then-TSR deliberately want to customer DM to "fill" it up.
Give Sembia to RPGA.
This is completely true, and made even more aggravating for people in the following situations:
Most of that is untrue, or is extremely slanted and ignores certain critical issues.
1. In foreign countries with virtually no RPGA communities, where it is possible to get a membership but.... upgradinbg to the level where you can download adventures? Forget it, never seen it here (Portugal). I would like to be involved and to have access to those adventures, which is nearly impossible here, and made all the worse especially since...
To upgrade to being able to download an adventure you need:
1. A computer. If you are posting here that should not be an issue.
2. The rules. If you are playing 3.5 that is an issue only because of translation issues. Yes, you will need to be fluent in English, and have the English rules to be able to pass those tests.
3. Exceptional patience. To sit down and take those very tedious tests, often repeatedly, until you pass them.
4. Be a member. That is difficult in low play areas, but once you manage that, becoming a Herald level member able to download and report adventures is easy in comparison.
2. Membership is almost strictly tied to current rules sets. I use 1st edition rules, not 3e. I do own a lot of 3e materials, I know the rules OK, I am willing to buy product and pay memberships and be involved with the RPGA, but my ability to be is partly based.... on my ability to master 3e rules?
This is a very unreasonable portrayal of the rules.
Membership is tied to joining.
Ordering and running adventures is tied to knowing the rules.
Since anyone showing up to play an RPGA event at an open game expects it to be played according to the current rules, how is it unreasonable to tie being able to order adventures to knowing the rules?
I think few people at WotC realize the amount of animosity this sort of thing creates in gamers in situations like me, who in other circumstances would be more than happy to be a part of the community. It's not like it would be a really hard thing to do.
There was a Living Greyhawk Region for Spain - the Lordship of the Isles. It was unable to produce enough material.
There is a Living Forgotten Realms Region that includes Spain - Impiltur.
The RPGA can make adventures. It can not make players to organize and play events.
Bear in mind that I think I know what I'm talking about, since I have been a partner in the company that published D&D in both Portuguese and Spanish for over 11 years (I left only last December), I translated the first ever edition of D&D into portuguese way back in 1988, I was marketing and sales manager for all Magic stuff at my company from 1996 to 2001 (and I was responsible for OP here), I know exactly how hard it is to talk to Hasbro Spain or the people in Antwerp about doing something for very small groups of players in small companies.
I pretty much stick to my comments. Since I do not post under an alias, it shouldn't be difficult for you to verify my claims. I do acknowledge that it is expected that WotC would favor 3.5 rules, and soon, 4e. I am happy that 4e is coming out from a business point of view, since my ex-partners (with whom I get along very well) will again get a few years of good sales. But is my desire to have some sort of parallel system allowing for older editions fans to remain in the loop, so to speak, so unreasonable, especially since most of us would be willing to pay (remember, most of us are in our 40's and 50's and can probably afford to pay for this)?
I will make it a point to immediately go and speak to the people at Devir about this, just so I am 100% sure of what I'm saying, and I'll come back with this next week.
[in rereading your post I note that you seem to think that my main point of contention is a "geography" isue. I would like to clarify that this is part of the problem, but mostly "edition" is the main problem, the expectation I need to convert my game to 3e to be able to join and participate.]
I play AD&D 1st edition. But I do own plenty of material of 3rd edition. In Portugal, I've never heard of any test being administered for Herald level, it's very difficult to get the interest of the powers that be for this. Even if there were tests administered here, I would have to learn a lot of rules I don't use to be able to pass.
The Herald level test is not administered in person.
You take it online by clicking a link through your RPGA account.
You do need that account, which can be difficult to get if there is no active RPGA community nearby, and the test is in English, and requires some very specific quoting from the English rules books. Provided you can overcome that, it is not that impossible.
Given the number of RPGA groups and admins in other parts of Europe, that is not an insurmountable barrier.
Further, I would have to change to the current rules to be able to report those games, since apparently, not reporting them is grounds for not being able to download again. Is it strange that I think there is animosity?
On that account? Yes.
The RPGA is a club. It has rules. It offers a lot of free stuff if you follow those rules. If you are unwilling to follow the rules, why should you feel entitled to the free stuff anyway?
Would it be difficult to implement some system that allowed members who do not play current edition to have access to the adventures or contribute the results of games?
Yes and no.
If you examine the RPGA rules, you will discover that you can "order" and report home campaigns. These could be in whatever format you wanted, as the RPGA will not wander by to check you out as long as you run them as home games.
The RPGA campaigns, particularly the Living Greyhawk and Xen'drik Expeditions campaigns, very specifically use the 3.5 rules. (Just as Living Forgotten Realms will use the 4E rules.) This is a very deliberate marketing decision. Making those available to people playing another system entirely defeats the purpose of using them as a marketing tool. So it would be a significant problem providing access to the adventures for non-sanctioned play, which would include playing them with another edition of the rules.
Also, for contributing results, that is limited to premiere events which take place at conventions. Unless you traveled to Gen Con Europe, or some similar game convention, you would not actually affect the campaign results anyway. The vast majority of RPGA players play the game under that limitation.
I think I could pass this test easily, since I know a lot about the rules of 3rd edition (perhaps not 3.5) but it's the principle that irritates me. There is no provision made whatsoever for people who have stuck with previous editions of the game but wish to be involved with the community.
That is because by sticking to the previous editions you are not a market for the current edition. The RPGA is a marketing tool. If you are not a customer, why are you irritated that the marketing material is not made available to you?
It is this sense of entitlement, and subsequent belittlement of the RPGA, that irritates me.
I play a Greyhawk campaign about twice a month, but it's not set in the "Living" campaign. Is it possible for me to integrate the results of adapted, houseruled adventures from the RPGA and report them to the RPGA so I might continue to download them?
No. You must order and play the adventures as written, then report them to the RPGA. That is what you agree to do as a member when you download an adventure.
I run a 3E/3.5 houserule Greyhawk campaign every week. I do not use LG material with it, and prefer it that way.
[in rereading your post I note that you seem to think that my main point of contention is a "geography" isue. I would like to clarify that this is part of the problem, but mostly "edition" is the main problem, the expectation I need to convert my game to 3e to be able to join and participate.]
No, I understand that.
What you need to understand is that WotC does not provide support for retired editions. When 4E comes out, everything I have written for Living Greyhawk that is edition linked will "expire." That includes part of a Core Beliefs article, as well as over 50,000 words of other material, including some I am (should be) working on now.
That impending obsolesence is not slowing me down one bit.