+1 to three stats - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

+1 to three stats

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
nburg
May 24, 2010 10:47:41 Has anyone experienced a downside to allowing +1 to three stats rather than to two stats when leveling? I was considering changing this for my group, but wasn't having luck searching for the topic.

Thanks.
#2
shisgokken
May 24, 2010 12:21:45 The result will be slightly stronger players, if only slightly. If you want to beef up your players, allow them all the extra points to ability scores you want.

What effects will the extra +1 to an ability score have? Possibly the following:

Can carry 10 more lbs without penalty ~ +1 to Strength
+1 HP ~ +1 in Constitution
Increase in some Class Features' effectiveness ~ +1 to appropriate ability score

If the ability score increases to an even number, i.e. the ability score modifier increases, the following are also possible:

+1 to bloodied value (for when HP increases to an even number) ~ +1 to Constitution
One more healing surge ~ +1 to Constitution
+1 to Initiative ~ +1 to Dexterity
+1 AC and Reflex for those wearing light armor ~ +1 to Dexterity or Intelligence (usually)
+1 Fortitude ~ +1 to Strength or Constitution
+1 Reflex ~ +1 to Dexterity or Intelligence
+1 Will ~ +1 to Wisdom or Charisma
+1 to base attack bonus ~ +1 to ability score used for attacks (based on power)
+1 to damage rolls ~ +1 to ability score used for attacks (based on power)
Increase in some Class Features' effectiveness ~ +1 to appropriate ability score
+1 to a group of skills ~ +1 to any ability score

By the time they reach 28th level (who seriously has even done that from 1st level?), that amounts to an additional 6 points to their ability scores. That translates to a maximum of six times the efficacy for the top possible effects, and three times, for the bottom.

Has my group done this and have I seen the results in game personally? No. But it doesn't seem game-breaking, just makes for an easier time succeeding, all other things equal.

#3
mplindustries
May 24, 2010 12:41:20 Since this allows people to keep all three of their NADs up, I'd recommend removing or reducing access to the Epic NAD feats.

Otherwise, I don't really see how this would be game breaking. You might have people with a couple extra HP or Healing surges (I imagine most without a place to put those points would go this route), or maybe some StarLocks and Baladins with actual significant rider effects on their powers.

Oh, actually, I'd just be careful of how much easier Polearm abuse is to access, since the normal limiting factor (needing Dex, Wisdom, and an attack stat) is no longer much of an issue. Of course, personally, I think that combination of feats is a problem regardless of how you stat things out, for whatever that's worth.
#4
nburg
May 24, 2010 14:06:35 Thanks guys, I appreciate the feedback.

My players have gone lvl 1 - 7 so far and they are not optimizers at all. In fact, I think some are tempted to try to keep all three recommended ability scores up, not worrying about the cost to their hit. Trying to avoid a miss-fest at upper levels I was thinking allowing three stats to go up, but I could just remind them to keep their primary attack abilities leveled as much as possible.

I also like that it would help keep more attack options open for classes like Warlocks and Paladins that can use multiple abilities for attacks.
#5
lluewhyn
May 24, 2010 21:04:49 The first 4.0 game I played in had a THIRTY-FIVE point buy system......and it actually didn't change the game that much. Mostly, it let people boost up their other minor stats as you got more bang for your buck that way instead of trying to throw it all in your main stat. Your third +1 will probably end up the same way, used to pad out a non-critical stat which might actually be nice since oftentimes those stat bonuses seem obligatory to where they should be spent.
#6
tequila_sunrise
May 24, 2010 21:25:13
...since oftentimes those stat bonuses seem obligatory to where they should be spent.

No kidding! I don't even consider them optional. At all. 4e got rid of most 'trap' options, but I definitely think that stat boosts are a trap simply by virtue of being optional.

What I've done for my next campaign is tell my players to give their toons +1 to all six stats at each 4th and 8th level. We're starting at 11th. I spent quite a bit of time researching it before I made my decision, and nothing I found indicates that it'll break the game in any way. It'll make it easier to access to feats, but I'm fine with that. As mplindustries says, problem feats are problematic, regardless of relative prereqs.
#7
erik_the_guy
May 25, 2010 0:35:22 This is the only real decision in character making for me:
Optimal race class combo and 18+2 = 20
or
Optimal race class combo and 16+2 = 18
or
Sub-optimal race class combo and 18

Also, your suggested house rule is very commonly implemented and works well. Some players might end up buffing two stats in the same category (rage barbs), leaving one NAD neglected... but that's their choice. Go for it.
#8
nburg
May 25, 2010 11:18:07 Great feedback, thanks again. I'll give the +1 to three stats a try and let you know if we experience any issues.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 nburg May 24, 2010 10:47:41	Has anyone experienced a downside to allowing +1 to three stats rather than to two stats when leveling? I was considering changing this for my group, but wasn't having luck searching for the topic. Thanks.
#2 shisgokken May 24, 2010 12:21:45	The result will be slightly stronger players, if only slightly. If you want to beef up your players, allow them all the extra points to ability scores you want. What effects will the extra +1 to an ability score have? Possibly the following: Can carry 10 more lbs without penalty ~ +1 to Strength +1 HP ~ +1 in Constitution Increase in some Class Features' effectiveness ~ +1 to appropriate ability score If the ability score increases to an even number, i.e. the ability score modifier increases, the following are also possible: +1 to bloodied value (for when HP increases to an even number) ~ +1 to Constitution One more healing surge ~ +1 to Constitution +1 to Initiative ~ +1 to Dexterity +1 AC and Reflex for those wearing light armor ~ +1 to Dexterity or Intelligence (usually) +1 Fortitude ~ +1 to Strength or Constitution +1 Reflex ~ +1 to Dexterity or Intelligence +1 Will ~ +1 to Wisdom or Charisma +1 to base attack bonus ~ +1 to ability score used for attacks (based on power) +1 to damage rolls ~ +1 to ability score used for attacks (based on power) Increase in some Class Features' effectiveness ~ +1 to appropriate ability score +1 to a group of skills ~ +1 to any ability score By the time they reach 28th level (who seriously has even done that from 1st level?), that amounts to an additional 6 points to their ability scores. That translates to a maximum of six times the efficacy for the top possible effects, and three times, for the bottom. Has my group done this and have I seen the results in game personally? No. But it doesn't seem game-breaking, just makes for an easier time succeeding, all other things equal.
#3 mplindustries May 24, 2010 12:41:20	Since this allows people to keep all three of their NADs up, I'd recommend removing or reducing access to the Epic NAD feats. Otherwise, I don't really see how this would be game breaking. You might have people with a couple extra HP or Healing surges (I imagine most without a place to put those points would go this route), or maybe some StarLocks and Baladins with actual significant rider effects on their powers. Oh, actually, I'd just be careful of how much easier Polearm abuse is to access, since the normal limiting factor (needing Dex, Wisdom, and an attack stat) is no longer much of an issue. Of course, personally, I think that combination of feats is a problem regardless of how you stat things out, for whatever that's worth.
#4 nburg May 24, 2010 14:06:35	Thanks guys, I appreciate the feedback. My players have gone lvl 1 - 7 so far and they are not optimizers at all. In fact, I think some are tempted to try to keep all three recommended ability scores up, not worrying about the cost to their hit. Trying to avoid a miss-fest at upper levels I was thinking allowing three stats to go up, but I could just remind them to keep their primary attack abilities leveled as much as possible. I also like that it would help keep more attack options open for classes like Warlocks and Paladins that can use multiple abilities for attacks.
#5 lluewhyn May 24, 2010 21:04:49	The first 4.0 game I played in had a THIRTY-FIVE point buy system......and it actually didn't change the game that much. Mostly, it let people boost up their other minor stats as you got more bang for your buck that way instead of trying to throw it all in your main stat. Your third +1 will probably end up the same way, used to pad out a non-critical stat which might actually be nice since oftentimes those stat bonuses seem obligatory to where they should be spent.
#6 tequila_sunrise May 24, 2010 21:25:13	...since oftentimes those stat bonuses seem obligatory to where they should be spent. No kidding! I don't even consider them optional. At all. 4e got rid of most 'trap' options, but I definitely think that stat boosts are a trap simply by virtue of being optional. What I've done for my next campaign is tell my players to give their toons +1 to all six stats at each 4th and 8th level. We're starting at 11th. I spent quite a bit of time researching it before I made my decision, and nothing I found indicates that it'll break the game in any way. It'll make it easier to access to feats, but I'm fine with that. As mplindustries says, problem feats are problematic, regardless of relative prereqs.
#7 erik_the_guy May 25, 2010 0:35:22	This is the only real decision in character making for me: Optimal race class combo and 18+2 = 20 or Optimal race class combo and 16+2 = 18 or Sub-optimal race class combo and 18 Also, your suggested house rule is very commonly implemented and works well. Some players might end up buffing two stats in the same category (rage barbs), leaving one NAD neglected... but that's their choice. Go for it.
#8 nburg May 25, 2010 11:18:07	Great feedback, thanks again. I'll give the +1 to three stats a try and let you know if we experience any issues.