Requiring two hits to go down would make it a bit more difficult for the players to get meta-game-y about "round one: AoE the minions... round two: start the real fight", but it would also make minions just a bit tougher, and would change the overall difficulty of the fight.
I'm curious about just how much practical difference it would make, when you consider that one of the ranger's at-wills and several fighter attacks could still take them out in one round (and that they likely wouldn't survive trying to move past a defender if they did live through the first round).
Any thoughts, particularly on how that would change their xp value?
Cheers
Captn M.
Need playtesting for a version of elite minions
Interesting. I like the ideas of the health tokens and the slay value. I hadn't really put that much thought into it yet since I don't have any forseeable plans of joining a game any time soon. It'll be interesting to see how that works out.
I had trouble with minions in my games too, again the constant AoE's, but that's when i realized their purpose in a fight, they distract the PC's while the big monsters wallop them.
Don't group your minions, I've seen a lot of low level minions that get bonuses from ganging up, if your going to use these have them come in at different angles.
don't use the same mini for all your minions (the players will then clearly know what is a minion and what isn't, you lose a round or two easy from this) I made this mistake by using zombie minies (from the zombies board game) as my minions, now i just grab a bunch of regular d&d minies and watch as my players cower (its fun, and non-lethal)
Each turn the wizard us using a at will power on minions (or any other class) is a turn that they are not focused on your main guys.
Minions have red shirts, let them die. its their job.
Personally, I don't mind this because we only play every two weeks and I consider this a little extra XP to keep us going.
If I were to tweak it I'd probably just reduce the XP value. Otherwise, I like the simplicity of two-hit minions; one hit–bloodied, next hit–dead.
Minions have a purpose and if the players are taking time and actions to deal with them, the minions have done their job.
If AoE effects are taking a toll on your minions, have them start spread out. Have some start on one side of the room and other start on another side.
Instead of two-hit minion, just use more minions. It will take longer to take them down and they may do more damage before they all die.
I'm still mildly confused by the number of people that feel like identifying minions adds a negative metagamey impact to their experience. I suppose that's partly due to differences in how we envision things; I prefer a style that ascribes some more competence to the PCs. For example, a fighter sizing up things in a battle and thinking "I can tell by the expert grip on his weapon that the lead orc is well-trained - he's not going to go down easily. I can see at a glance, though, that the two orcs to his left lack expertise - one leaves his neck wide open, and the other is using a dangerous overhand swing that exposes his belly. Shameful, really." I.e. I treat minion status as an indicator of how deadly the PCs are, not how weak and ineffective the monster is. Identifying which monsters are minions is just a matter of the PCs sizing up how they can efficiently dispatch the bulk of their foes, while the monsters with HP are the ones who are skilled enough to successfully block the first few hits.
Put another way, in The Princess Bride, when Inigo first confronts Count Rugen and dispatches of the four swordsmen with a single attack each, I don't think he was surprised that they went down with only one hit. He took one look at them, sized up the flaws in their technique, and concluded that he could safely dispose of them quickly and efficiently.
Two-hit minions bridge part of the gap, i'd have to say. However, i find it easier to think of minions as incapacitated after the first hit rather than having suffered a Conterstrike-esque "headshot" from a supperior combattant. I'd probably have them try to slip away or remain stunned on the battlefield, a problem for the PCs to deal with later.
Minions are difficult for me to conceptualise. Sure, they may go down in one hit, but i have trouble seeing one creature die instantly from an attack that others of it's kind might shrug off easily. It's easier when they're taken down by a martial power, because skill is a highly plausible and believable factor there... but when a fireball hits a crowd, what training will prevent a more experienced, but fundamentally identical, monster from being crisped along with the unlucky minions?
The fact that he's flat tougher. Why is it a critical hit from a Vampire Fighter could likely drop a Lvl 1 Wizard, but might only bloody a Lvl 7 wizard?
The minions have less drive to keep standing. They have less skill to avert that blow to keep from hitting vital organs.
Minions are there for the theatrical effect. Notice how Aragorn and Gandalf one shotted almost everybody in the movies while fighting orcs. When they didn't, you remembered those fights. Aragorns' fight against the hulking orc comes to mind.
Just my two.
Having multi hit minions means tracking hits, which is counter to the idea of a minion. You could make minions more compelling by raising their various defenses a bit. They already have higher defenses, but a lil extra buff (like another +2) might make them tougher.
As for meta-gaming, i suggest trying to hide who is a minion. Have minions and non-minions stand side by side. Use minis that are less uniform. It might be harder for you to track who is who, but they'll have to rethink how they fight. Or have almost uniform minis but make "third goblin with a scimitar" a non-minion.
You could also just outright cheat and not allow any minions to die in the first round (or two). That does the same thing you're considering, but without using some sort of counter for your players to track.
Have a hidden pool of minion hits - Behind your screen you have a pile of tokens that absorb hits from your PCs. Maybe one token per minion. As the minions take hits, remove a token. However, it should be a one token per round sort of thing. If one minion takes two hits, take a token for the first, but the second gets through. If a group of minions take an AoE, either take a token for each minion in the blast, or some other number and spare a few. Keep it unpredictable. This model hides who is a minion (briefly) and means you don't have to count who has been hit how many times.
Above all, don't let the system get in the way of fun. Fun means a challenge they CAN overcome. Not challenging enough is boring, too challenging is frustrating. Fun means "wait a moment... something is different here, what's going on?". If that means fudging here and there, do it.
One of the thoughts that brought this up was how to handle a fight where you don't want to pad the fight by laying down extra minions... Sure, you could just throw in twice as many minions, but what if it kind of strains belief to have that many monsters in a particular area?
I'll approach this in reverse, just so you know my post follows some pattern (albeit an unconventional one).
I don't think having 20 or so creatures in a combat scenario strains belief. In our own ancient world, armies numbering tens of thousands would assemble on a battlefield. All you need is a charismatic leader or a magnetic cause to encourage these beings to work together.
That said, two-hit minions are not equivalent to two standard minions, just as doubling a creatures hitpoints does not automatically make it an elite monster. They stick around slightly longer, but they still have only one set of actions each per round.
I suppose we could make them roughly equivalent to two minions by giving them two initiative counts as per Ettins, which would make the substitution a little easier: 1 standard creature = 2 superior minions = 4 standard minions. Just a thought.
I'd go with +50% XP.
the way hit points would realistically work is not how many times you can be stabbed with a sword and keep fighting. Instead, they are like your stamina, or ability to turn a potentially lethal blow into a cut or bruise. it isnt until a pc or monster is "worn out" that the opponent is able to hit them with a full-on fatal blow.
short story long, minions aren't good at the whole "I avoid getting hit in the chest with an arrow" kind of thing.
Anyway. I use 2-hit minions from time to time in my games. I usually give a small XP boost, no mathematical equation. Just a few extra XP around a 50% bonus I guess. My rules are as follows:
-extra damage granted from strikers counts as a "second" hit against the minion. 2-hit minions can be taken down in one strike by a focused striker.
-ranger twin-strike and similar multiple attack powers also count as two hits. So a ranger using twin strike and hunter's quarry could take out a 3-hit minion in one attack.
-this one is a bit clunky when I write it down; I usually just count it in my head, so it's never seemed so awkward to me. If a power does more than 1 die of damage, and one of the damage dice rolled is max damage, I count that max-damage die as a separate attack. So, if an AoE does 2d6 and the 2d6 comes up a 6 and 2, I count it as two attacks. If it came up as two 4's, though, i would not. This might seem a bit arbitrary, but so is the requirement of a "hit", so it works.
Lately I have been experimenting with mingling 1-hit and 2-hit minions in the same fight. It's harder for me to keep track of, but I'm working on that (got a new system with lego blocks, not tested yet). Once I've got the tracking down, I expect it to really rock.
second time in two days I have written this so I'll be short. Look up my older posts if you want a longer version: I treat minions as identical to regular units of similar type (eg kobold minions are narratively the same as kobold skirmishers), but are "fated" to be the unlucky ones who take (possibly even a weak) hit to a vital spot and go down quickly.
Anyway. I use 2-hit minions from time to time in my games. I usually give a small XP boost, no mathematical equation. Just a few extra XP around a 50% bonus I guess. My rules are as follows:
-extra damage granted from strikers counts as a "second" hit against the minion. 2-hit minions can be taken down in one strike by a focused striker.
-ranger twin-strike and similar multiple attack powers also count as two hits. So a ranger using twin strike and hunter's quarry could take out a 3-hit minion in one attack.
-this one is a bit clunky when I write it down; I usually just count it in my head, so it's never seemed so awkward to me. If a power does more than 1 die of damage, and one of the damage dice rolled is max damage, I count that max-damage die as a separate attack. So, if an AoE does 2d6 and the 2d6 comes up a 6 and 2, I count it as two attacks. If it came up as two 4's, though, i would not. This might seem a bit arbitrary, but so is the requirement of a "hit", so it works.
Lately I have been experimenting with mingling 1-hit and 2-hit minions in the same fight. It's harder for me to keep track of, but I'm working on that (got a new system with lego blocks, not tested yet). Once I've got the tracking down, I expect it to really rock.
A lot of good stuff there. The 50% increase in experience, as mentioned by a couple of people, seems reasonable enough to me. Your last rule did seem a bit arbitrary to me, however, it's your game so, at the risk of sounding more vulgar that i am accustomed to: "whatever floats your boat".
In the case of multiple attack powers, i would count each successful attack roll as a "hit", thus achieving roughly the same result as your rule. Additionally, i would amend the minion rules so that each "hit" removes only one hitpoint (assuming the attack deals damage), except on a critical, which removes two.
I agree fully concerning the strikers' extra damage. Since it's their class concept to deal more deadly single strikes, they shouldn't be penalised for that. Minions should go down more quickly for them, just like everything else.
Returning to the last bit of your post: Anything involving both D&D -and- Legos is bound to be amazing. Do tell us all about that once you've perfected the system!
Minions have 1 hit point because they simply cant seem to avoid that fatal blow.
the way hit points would realistically work is not how many times you can be stabbed with a sword and keep fighting. Instead, they are like your stamina, or ability to turn a potentially lethal blow into a cut or bruise. it isnt until a pc or monster is "worn out" that the opponent is able to hit them with a full-on fatal blow.
short story long, minions aren't good at the whole "I avoid getting hit in the chest with an arrow" kind of thing.
This is very true and i have been keeping it in mind. One thing that irks me though is that minions have no reserves of stamina at all. They shouldn't -all- be so lacking in relative skill that any blow you land is unavoidably fatal. This is where i particularly like the idea of mixing minions of differing toughness. Some may actually drop with one blow, others may not. It provides a few more shades than simply weakling or threat, thus keeping players on their toes.
This is very true and i have been keeping it in mind. One thing that irks me though is that minions have no reserves of stamina at all. They shouldn't -all- be so lacking in relative skill that any blow you land is unavoidably fatal. This is where i particularly like the idea of mixing minions of differing toughness. Some may actually drop with one blow, others may not. It provides a few more shades than simply weakling or threat, thus keeping players on their toes.
I fully agree that PC's need to be kept on their toes. When the players know they are facing minions, they tend to relax and just swing away until they are all wiped out. In the game I play, the DM makes the minions sound just like any other monster of the same kind, and tends to mix them in. We never know which ones are minions and which ones aren't until we actually hit them.
What minions were meant to represent in D&D are the armies of enemies for heroes to waste away. The reason why these enemies are down in one hit in movies is that it's just to boring to watch Legolas spend 5 minutes to cut down an orc when he can waste away 50 in the same screen time.
If there is a design flaw about minions, then it's that they give too much XP. At high levels, you expect heroes to easily lay waste to an army of 100 zombies. But that fight should not be worth 25 normal monsters. If you feel that minions go down too easily, always feel free to use *more*. Cut down their XP value. Either limit their value to a total of 25% of the encounter XP, or just simply declare every minion to be XP 0.
That way, a DM can always feel free to just make more minions show up if a fight is not challenging enough. That's also the solution if a fireball or similar wiped out all of them: just have the next pack come screaming around the corner.
I'm also in favor of clearly saying "this is a minion - this is a real threat".
Reason 1: It's always clear in the movies. Did Darth Vader look like a Stormtrooper? Of course not! He stood out like a black monolith in the white snow!
Reason 2: It prevents characters from wasting valuable daily powers on cardboard foes.
I'm also in favor of clearly saying "this is a minion - this is a real threat".
Reason 1: It's always clear in the movies. Did Darth Vader look like a Stormtrooper? Of course not! He stood out like a black monolith in the white snow!
Reason 2: It prevents characters from wasting valuable daily powers on cardboard foes.
Reason 1 only applies if you use minions to make your game more cinematic. I, for one, use them for the opposite, to make the game more gritty and bring attention to the fact that the players are surviving as much by luck as anything else. For that, the minions need to be as tough-looking as their equivalent nonminion counterparts (like I said before, kobold minions are kobold skirmishers, narratively
Reason 2 is sort-of valid, but very metagame. If the players want to chuck their biggest abilities at a completely unknown foe, that is the player's choice in my opinion.
I'm sorry, but even if it's a lesser vampire, minion rules for them make the vampires in the Blade movie seem like antediluvians in power. It would seem ridiculous in my mind (even if they do die in piles in the movie, players would tend to be rather disappointed)
So instead of disregarding the vampire spawns altogether, I used the following rules to give an illusion of a powerful enemy:
-If you hit a vampire spawn and deal damage, it becomes unconscious/helpless. On it's following turn, it makes a saving throw; success means that he gets up again.
-To kill a vampire spawn:
*Doing a CdG on it before it had the chance of rising again (effectively driving the weapon through the heart or decapitating him)
*Deal any type of radiant damage, which includes the Sun. This doesn't matter whether the spawn is down or not
I used minions like this type in my game, but only one type: Vampire Spawns.
I'm sorry, but even if it's a lesser vampire, minion rules for them make the vampires in the Blade movie seem like antediluvians in power. It would seem ridiculous in my mind (even if they do die in piles in the movie, players would tend to be rather disappointed)
So instead of disregarding the vampire spawns altogether, I used the following rules to give an illusion of a powerful enemy:
-If you hit a vampire spawn and deal damage, it becomes unconscious/helpless. On it's following turn, it makes a saving throw; success means that he gets up again.
-To kill a vampire spawn:
*Doing a CdG on it before it had the chance of rising again (effectively driving the weapon through the heart or decapitating him)
*Deal any type of radiant damage, which includes the Sun. This doesn't matter whether the spawn is down or not
I do the same for some of my more "elite" minions. I roll a saving throw. Fail, they die...
1. In the podcast I belive it was Mike (or was it Dave) that said that he had no problem with high level minions being in a fight to drop like flies (that what they are supposed to do) he just felt that in Epic teir that minons should be worth less xp than they are now.
2. Minions that are the same level as the party will have decent defenses, and will not be auto hit in most cases.
3. AOE powers are typicaly encounter or daily powers if a player spends an attack and one of their powers than the minion has already served its purpose.
4. Remeber on attacks that target multiple enemies the players must make mutliple attack roles, therefore one AOE is not likely to kill all the minions.
5. Minions are more effective when paired with monsters with the leader role.
6. Sometimes the story calls for encounter in which a large number of monsters get slaughtered by the party.
7. You don't have to put the minions on the map at the start of the fight you can have them run in in later rounds.
So I think minions work well in heroic tier (I have not played the others), just the way they are.
I really wonder why there is so much fuss about minions. As someone above pointed out, the concept is well-known from pretty much any action movie out there. What would Star Wars be without Stormtroopers? The Mines of Moria in LotR without hordes of Orcs? Any zombie movie without hordes of zombies?
[...]
I'm also in favor of clearly saying "this is a minion - this is a real threat".
Reason 1: It's always clear in the movies. Did Darth Vader look like a Stormtrooper? Of course not! He stood out like a black monolith in the white snow!
Reason 2: It prevents characters from wasting valuable daily powers on cardboard foes.
I'm very pleased to hear that minions fit your playstyle well. I agree, minions work very nicely for cinematic game-play. I love to see this kind of thing in movies and certain videogames, God of War and it's sequel for example were wonderful for this kind of thing. However, my personal preference for D&D is to have a variety of thoughnesses among minions instead of having every single one go down instantly.
I believe differentiating minions from threats is fine, but not in all circumstances. A pervious poster menitioned that minions might be flavoured as those creatures "fated" to die pathetically, despite whatever skills they may have in life; they just slipped up.
At other times, there truly is meant to be a difference in skill and/or power. In such cases, i'm right there with you. By all means put primary threats in shiny black armour, if that's the effect you're going for... but not every non-minion should be in black armour, whereas every minion is in white (figuratively speaking, of course), in my honest opinion.
Say you have an encounter planned out including 4 minions and 2 similar non-minion units.
Try it like this: introduce 6 identical "schroedinger's minions". They are all the same and neither minion nor nonminion. up to you if you want to let schroedinger's minions roll for damage or use predetermined damage; I for one would go for the nonrolling by default, simply because it's faster.
When one of the Schr.Minions gets hit, roll a saving throw. If it fails, the minion dies like a normal minion. If it passes, the Schr.Minion takes normal damage and becomes one of the 2 non-minions you designed the fight around. Lather, rinse, repeat until either only 2 minions are left standing, in which case they by default become the 2 full units, or until 2 of the Schr.Minions have passed their saves and "advanced" to full unit status, in which case the unlucky remaining ones are all normal minions.
This keeps you the DM from having to keep track too much over which are which.
how I do this with lego
in my case I use lego to represent my enemy units; this way the minions and nonminions can all be represented by the same colour piece, and I'll just mark "injured" units as I always do, by flipping them upside down. In our previous example, once two units are upside-down then I know the rest are definitely minions. This prevents any metagaming at all... the players are not even likely to figure out what is going on, as narratively and on the board all the units look the same but mechanically some have 1 hp while some have 35.
I used minions like this type in my game, but only one type: Vampire Spawns.
[...]
-If you hit a vampire spawn and deal damage, it becomes unconscious/helpless. On it's following turn, it makes a saving throw; success means that he gets up again.
-To kill a vampire spawn:
*Doing a CdG on it before it had the chance of rising again (effectively driving the weapon through the heart or decapitating him)
*Deal any type of radiant damage, which includes the Sun. This doesn't matter whether the spawn is down or not
Ah, i like this as well. I'll be flirting with a hybrid, i think.
Try it like this: introduce 6 identical "schroedinger's minions". They are all the same and neither minion nor nonminion. up to you if you want to let schroedinger's minions roll for damage or use predetermined damage; I for one would go for the nonrolling by default, simply because it's faster.
When one of the Schr.Minions gets hit, roll a saving throw. If it fails, the minion dies like a normal minion. If it passes, the Schr.Minion takes normal damage and becomes one of the 2 non-minions you designed the fight around. Lather, rinse, repeat until either only 2 minions are left standing, in which case they by default become the 2 full units, or until 2 of the Schr.Minions have passed their saves and "advanced" to full unit status, in which case the unlucky remaining ones are all normal minions.
Points for the Schroedinger's Box/Cat allusion.
I don't know about the minion vs. standard uncertainty concept, but it certainly holds a great deal of potential. It seems you're saying the unknown creature would deal minion damage until hit, at which point it has the potential of evolving into one of the more powerful Pokemon... ~cough~ Was that approximately what you intended?
I was thinking of taking the hits-per-tier concept presented earlier in combination with the saving throw. What i imagine is that a minion can take a maximum of one hit per tier, but with each hit it makes a save or becomes incapacitated / dead for the encounter. All heroic minions need not bother, as they have a 1-hit maximum, so they are automatically out of the picture. Paragon and epic creatures effectively have a 50% survival rate from the first hit, and epic ones an approximate 25% chance to make it all the way to their third and final point. This adds some uncertainty and variety to the battlefield, while rather reinforcing the luck / fate concept.
Points for the Schroedinger's Box/Cat allusion.
I don't know about the minion vs. standard uncertainty concept, but it certainly holds a great deal of potential. It seems you're saying the unknown creature would deal minion damage until hit, at which point it has the potential of evolving into one of the more powerful Pokemon... ~cough~ Was that approximately what you intended?
I give you schroedinger, you give me pokemon??? Does that seem right to you?;)
If I remember right, the minion damage is typically dead-average rolls for their monster type. Kobold minions deal 5 damage, and Kobold skirmishers deal 1d6+3, I think, so the minions are not too nerfed. The SchrMins will be dealing 5 damage at the beginning of the fight, when there are lots of enemies to keep track of and too much die rolling slogs things down. However, as the battlefield clears and the shcroedinger aspect ends, the "upgraded" minions are now free to randomize without delaying things.
Make sense?
Other things will change: the "upgraded" minions actually lose defenses and things when changing over, so it's not as much an upgrade as a switch.
I was thinking of taking the hits-per-tier concept presented earlier in combination with the saving throw. What i imagine is that a minion can take a maximum of one hit per tier, but with each hit it makes a save or becomes incapacitated / dead for the encounter. All heroic minions need not bother, as they have a 1-hit maximum, so they are automatically out of the picture. Paragon and epic creatures effectively have a 50% survival rate from the first hit, and epic ones an approximate 25% chance to make it all the way to their third and final point. This adds some uncertainty and variety to the battlefield, while rather reinforcing the luck / fate concept.
Hey, neat. Takes a bit more paperwork once you get to Epic: for me, I could no longer do my lego-piece flip trick. Then again, by the time my PCs reach Epic I may be a lot smoother at my lego tricks.
I give you schroedinger, you give me pokemon??? Does that seem right to you?;)
If I remember right, the minion damage is typically dead-average rolls for their monster type. Kobold minions deal 5 damage, and Kobold skirmishers deal 1d6+3, I think, so the minions are not too nerfed. The SchrMins will be dealing 5 damage at the beginning of the fight, when there are lots of enemies to keep track of and too much die rolling slogs things down. However, as the battlefield clears and the shcroedinger aspect ends, the "upgraded" minions are now free to randomize without delaying things.
Make sense?
Other things will change: the "upgraded" minions actually lose defenses and things when changing over, so it's not as much an upgrade as a switch.
Hey, neat. Takes a bit more paperwork once you get to Epic: for me, I could no longer do my lego-piece flip trick. Then again, by the time my PCs reach Epic I may be a lot smoother at my lego tricks.
Ah, well that certainly looks like a good way to both keep players on their toes and ease bookkeeping. Kudos on that.
If you need a third configuration for your Legos, why not turn a brick on it's end? If it's a 2x4 brick, it can even resemble a standing humanoid... in a blocky sort of way.
So I created some zombie minions with the following ability: