2e/3e Wizard in a 4e World - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

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#1 Shiftkitty May 25, 2009 21:58:17	We're trying an experiment at my table, and I want to know what pitfalls I should keep my eyes open for. We're running a 2e/3e wizard in a 4e group. The front of the character sheet is all 4e. AC, NADs, skills, healing surges, etc. is all to 4e specs. The arcane portion of the character is 2e/3e. We had to make some compromises due to the increased combat nature of 4e: All spells are to be selected from the 2ePHB with the exception of the 3e 0 level spells (that version's take on cantrips). All spells are Encounter. Berrian has no At-wills, which we've already found out hurts, but he also doesn't have any Dailies, which doesn't hurt so much. He gets no class skills, Paragon Paths, or Epic Destinies. We're still working on whether or not he should gain access to PrCs. The number of spells allowed is to be taken from the 3e PHB. Yes, he has to wait until he's level 3 before he can cast a 2nd level spell. We adopted the Priest's bonus spells from 2e, so his 15 WIS gets him two 1st level and one 2nd level bonus spell. Again, however, he has to wait until he can cast 2nd level spells before he can gain access to that 2nd level bonus spell. Save Or Die spells are still being negotiated. Since he's still a 1st level, we've got time before he gets hold of those. Our current plan is that a SoD spell will have to roll twice. Two successful hits means I have to eat the stat sheet of the BBEG that I so carefully crafted. One hit means he's reduced to bloodied, which might not be a good thing for the party in some cases. If he's already bloodied, he's reduced to half of his current hp. He may not cast rituals from the 4e list without the Read Magic spell, which can only be used on one scroll (one standard action). In RP terms, the formulations and diagrams are all wrong and make no sense to him.
#2 doneisi May 26, 2009 9:13:46	Spells being encounter will become really powerful, really fast. First level 4e characters only have 1 encounter power while the wizard will have at least three and that number will increase rapidly and go beyond the 4e maximum.
#3 Stuntman May 26, 2009 12:38:15	What do you mean by "The number of spells allowed is to be taken from the 3e PHB. Yes, he has to wait until he's level 3 before he can cast a 2nd level spell?" Is this the number of spells he knows is from the PHB 3 wizard spell table and these are all encounters? Can he double up like take Fireball multiple times? From what I can forsee are problems is the damage output of spells that scale according to level. Fireball is a classic example. At level 5, you have an encounter spell that deals 5d6 damage and half on a miss. For an encounter spell, that is too powerful. In 4E, it is daily powers that deal half damage on a miss. Encounter powers usually do nothing on a miss. Save and die spells are also going to be really powerful. One such spell in 4E is Sleep. With this spell, you have to hit and the target has to fail the first save. I suspect 2E Hold Person would be the same. Sleep in 4E is a daily power. If you have encounter save or die powers, it will be too powerful. Magic Missile in 2E is an auto hit. It becomes an auto minion killer that is better than 4E Cloud of Daggers at level 1. At higher levels, it auto hits multiple creatures. This can potentially be too powerful. Summon spells are also a potential problem. These spell from previous editions create multiple creatures that attack without using any of the wizard's actions. All of the 2nd level spells that give +4 to an ability like Bull's Strength is huge for 4E rules. 4E powers that give even a +2 to hit usually lasts only until the end of the next turn. A single encounter spell that gives +4 to an ability that lasts hours is going to be overpowered. This goes for any buff spells as they last much longer than one turn in previous editions. Polymorph was overpowered and majorly slows the game down in 3E already.
#4 Shiftkitty May 26, 2009 12:57:10	Spells being encounter will become really powerful, really fast. First level 4e characters only have 1 encounter power while the wizard will have at least three and that number will increase rapidly and go beyond the 4e maximum. But the 2e/3e wizard wouldn't get any At-wills. He's good for three attacks, if he has three attack spells, before he has to rely on what martial ability he may have. A 4e wizard can fall back on his At-wills. That was my thinking. Magic Missile can only hit a maximum of 5 creatures at level 9. By that time, the party should be facing creatures with more than enough hps to handle a full volley. Even if he goes all the way to level 30, he's doing 5d4+30, or 50 points max. But that's why we're running the experiment, to see how badly broken it will be in our game. As far as taking spells multiple times, yeah, that's a bridge we'll have to burn when we get there. Thanks for bringing that up. Thanks for the posts. I'm keeping my eye out on this thing just to see how it goes. It's been pretty tricky to manage, so far. At least it's fun!

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

Shiftkitty

May 25, 2009 21:58:17

We're trying an experiment at my table, and I want to know what pitfalls I should keep my eyes open for.

We're running a 2e/3e wizard in a 4e group. The front of the character sheet is all 4e. AC, NADs, skills, healing surges, etc. is all to 4e specs. The arcane portion of the character is 2e/3e. We had to make some compromises due to the increased combat nature of 4e:

All spells are to be selected from the 2ePHB with the exception of the 3e 0 level spells (that version's take on cantrips).

All spells are Encounter. Berrian has no At-wills, which we've already found out hurts, but he also doesn't have any Dailies, which doesn't hurt so much.

He gets no class skills, Paragon Paths, or Epic Destinies. We're still working on whether or not he should gain access to PrCs.

The number of spells allowed is to be taken from the 3e PHB. Yes, he has to wait until he's level 3 before he can cast a 2nd level spell.

We adopted the Priest's bonus spells from 2e, so his 15 WIS gets him two 1st level and one 2nd level bonus spell. Again, however, he has to wait until he can cast 2nd level spells before he can gain access to that 2nd level bonus spell.

Save Or Die spells are still being negotiated. Since he's still a 1st level, we've got time before he gets hold of those. Our current plan is that a SoD spell will have to roll twice. Two successful hits means I have to eat the stat sheet of the BBEG that I so carefully crafted. One hit means he's reduced to bloodied, which might not be a good thing for the party in some cases. If he's already bloodied, he's reduced to half of his current hp.

He may not cast rituals from the 4e list without the Read Magic spell, which can only be used on one scroll (one standard action). In RP terms, the formulations and diagrams are all wrong and make no sense to him.

doneisi

May 26, 2009 9:13:46

Spells being encounter will become really powerful, really fast. First level 4e characters only have 1 encounter power while the wizard will have at least three and that number will increase rapidly and go beyond the 4e maximum.

Stuntman

May 26, 2009 12:38:15

What do you mean by "The number of spells allowed is to be taken from the 3e PHB. Yes, he has to wait until he's level 3 before he can cast a 2nd level spell?" Is this the number of spells he knows is from the PHB 3 wizard spell table and these are all encounters?

Can he double up like take Fireball multiple times?

From what I can forsee are problems is the damage output of spells that scale according to level. Fireball is a classic example. At level 5, you have an encounter spell that deals 5d6 damage and half on a miss. For an encounter spell, that is too powerful. In 4E, it is daily powers that deal half damage on a miss. Encounter powers usually do nothing on a miss.

Save and die spells are also going to be really powerful. One such spell in 4E is Sleep. With this spell, you have to hit and the target has to fail the first save. I suspect 2E Hold Person would be the same. Sleep in 4E is a daily power. If you have encounter save or die powers, it will be too powerful.

Magic Missile in 2E is an auto hit. It becomes an auto minion killer that is better than 4E Cloud of Daggers at level 1. At higher levels, it auto hits multiple creatures. This can potentially be too powerful.

Summon spells are also a potential problem. These spell from previous editions create multiple creatures that attack without using any of the wizard's actions.

All of the 2nd level spells that give +4 to an ability like Bull's Strength is huge for 4E rules. 4E powers that give even a +2 to hit usually lasts only until the end of the next turn. A single encounter spell that gives +4 to an ability that lasts hours is going to be overpowered. This goes for any buff spells as they last much longer than one turn in previous editions.

Polymorph was overpowered and majorly slows the game down in 3E already.

Shiftkitty

May 26, 2009 12:57:10

Spells being encounter will become really powerful, really fast. First level 4e characters only have 1 encounter power while the wizard will have at least three and that number will increase rapidly and go beyond the 4e maximum.

But the 2e/3e wizard wouldn't get any At-wills. He's good for three attacks, if he has three attack spells, before he has to rely on what martial ability he may have. A 4e wizard can fall back on his At-wills. That was my thinking.

Magic Missile can only hit a maximum of 5 creatures at level 9. By that time, the party should be facing creatures with more than enough hps to handle a full volley. Even if he goes all the way to level 30, he's doing 5d4+30, or 50 points max. But that's why we're running the experiment, to see how badly broken it will be in our game.

As far as taking spells multiple times, yeah, that's a bridge we'll have to burn when we get there. Thanks for bringing that up.

Thanks for the posts. I'm keeping my eye out on this thing just to see how it goes. It's been pretty tricky to manage, so far. At least it's fun!