3.5 Gestalt and level adjustment - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Kigan Mar 29, 2012 4:35:17	OK, so I'm ready to bet that this exist somewhere on this forum, but I rolled poorly on my divination and even the "search engine" spell was no use to me. So in gestalt 3.5, how does one take level adjustment into account? I get that gestalt is a variant, so there is no good answer here, but how do YOU deal with the situation? Or how would you? The racial hit dice are no problem, put them on one "side", and a class level on the other. Please, for this thread, don't bother telling me how much LA is broken, one side or the other. Just assume they are perfectly balanced, I'll deal with that viper's nest on my own later, or come back for help, but not on this thread, thank you very much. After much thinking, I realized that doing the same with level adjustment as with hit dice gave an unfair advantage to LA races, since a level adjustment was supposed to "cost" Hit Dice, skill point and saving bonuses in exchange for augmented stats, spell-like ability or whatever. Giving them back with the class defeats the purpose. But putting it on both sides penalized that race (compared to other gestalts at least), since they did not gain two different power set for that level, only the one the LA is suppossed to correct. So what I intend to house-rule is that you must put the LA on one "side" (the same side that has the racial Hit Dice if applicable), and the classes on the other. However: whenever there is a LA on one side, the class on the other side grants all advantages relative to the class itself, like +sneak attack damage, spells / day, caster level, lay on hand, bonus feats, advancement in your wild shape ability, etc... What it does not grant you however, are the Hit Dice, +BAB, +Saving throws, + Character level (althought it does give you a +1 Effective Character Level), Skill points (but it does confere class skills to be counted as class skills for calculating max skill rank if the character later multiclasses). This lets the player enjoy the gestalt even with the La level, ad he still gets both power sets, but still takes the penalty in Character level for taking a +X LA race, where X is not 0. So I'd like my fellow DM's opinion on that houserule. Oh, here are some information on my game, just in case it may be important to the topic, but I don't think so: Homebrew 3.5 (+savage species), a lot of house-rules (especially on skill points), many more Gods than normal setting, Druids, Ranger, Wu-Jen, Dragons spell-like and other cast "Primordial" instead of either "Divine" or "Arcane" (Althought dragons are somewhat not really Primordial, but unless you have Knowledge: Primordial +30, you'll never realize that). What else? Oh, I roll initiative with d10, so High Dex and Improved Initiative actually matter twice as much. Shield bonus applies to touch attacks instead of flat-footed. Not a lot more I can think of... Five players, starting level 10: 1) Half-elf / Half-drow (+2LA) Battle sorcerer 8 / shadow caster 10, 2) Trumpet Archon 10 (SS monster progression) / Crusader 10 3) Human Fighter 10 / Paladin 10 4) Homebrew race with 0LA Fighter 10 / Sorcerer 10 5) Half-Dragon / Human 3LA +Half-Dragon Paragon 3 +Rogue 4 / Dragon Shaman 10
#2 OskarOisinson Mar 31, 2012 18:27:50	I'd help you out but haven't played 3.5 in a long time. Still, I don't think this is the appropriate forum for this as this is all for 4e stuff. I'd recommend you look up the 'previous editions' forums and post it there.
#3 rampant Mar 31, 2012 21:21:34	3.5 used the idea of monster as class, so the LA and the HD levels are part of the same class and treated as such.
#4 Kigan Mar 31, 2012 21:39:22	3.5 used the idea of monster as class, so the LA and the HD levels are part of the same class and treated as such. Part of the same class? Yeah, but my question is about how that affects balnce in a gestalt game, as per the UA rules...
#5 rampant Apr 01, 2012 9:41:43	Basically yeah Gestalt helps LA races more than others. On the other hand with the exception of really uber monsters like beholders, dragons, or generally extreme critters it's not enough to break the game.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

Kigan

Mar 29, 2012 4:35:17

OK, so I'm ready to bet that this exist somewhere on this forum, but I rolled poorly on my divination and even the "search engine" spell was no use to me.

So in gestalt 3.5, how does one take level adjustment into account? I get that gestalt is a variant, so there is no good answer here, but how do YOU deal with the situation? Or how would you? The racial hit dice are no problem, put them on one "side", and a class level on the other.

Please, for this thread, don't bother telling me how much LA is broken, one side or the other. Just assume they are perfectly balanced, I'll deal with that viper's nest on my own later, or come back for help, but not on this thread, thank you very much.

After much thinking, I realized that doing the same with level adjustment as with hit dice gave an unfair advantage to LA races, since a level adjustment was supposed to "cost" Hit Dice, skill point and saving bonuses in exchange for augmented stats, spell-like ability or whatever. Giving them back with the class defeats the purpose.

But putting it on both sides penalized that race (compared to other gestalts at least), since they did not gain two different power set for that level, only the one the LA is suppossed to correct.

So what I intend to house-rule is that you must put the LA on one "side" (the same side that has the racial Hit Dice if applicable), and the classes on the other.

However: whenever there is a LA on one side, the class on the other side grants all advantages relative to the class itself, like +sneak attack damage, spells / day, caster level, lay on hand, bonus feats, advancement in your wild shape ability, etc...

What it does not grant you however, are the Hit Dice, +BAB, +Saving throws, + Character level (althought it does give you a +1 Effective Character Level), Skill points (but it does confere class skills to be counted as class skills for calculating max skill rank if the character later multiclasses).

This lets the player enjoy the gestalt even with the La level, ad he still gets both power sets, but still takes the penalty in Character level for taking a +X LA race, where X is not 0.

So I'd like my fellow DM's opinion on that houserule.

Oh, here are some information on my game, just in case it may be important to the topic, but I don't think so: Homebrew 3.5 (+savage species), a lot of house-rules (especially on skill points), many more Gods than normal setting, Druids, Ranger, Wu-Jen, Dragons spell-like and other cast "Primordial" instead of either "Divine" or "Arcane" (Althought dragons are somewhat not really Primordial, but unless you have Knowledge: Primordial +30, you'll never realize that).
What else? Oh, I roll initiative with d10, so High Dex and Improved Initiative actually matter twice as much. Shield bonus applies to touch attacks instead of flat-footed. Not a lot more I can think of...

Five players, starting level 10:

1) Half-elf / Half-drow (+2LA) Battle sorcerer 8 / shadow caster 10,

2) Trumpet Archon 10 (SS monster progression) / Crusader 10

3) Human Fighter 10 / Paladin 10

4) Homebrew race with 0LA Fighter 10 / Sorcerer 10

5) Half-Dragon / Human 3LA +Half-Dragon Paragon 3 +Rogue 4 / Dragon Shaman 10

OskarOisinson

Mar 31, 2012 18:27:50

I'd help you out but haven't played 3.5 in a long time. Still, I don't think this is the appropriate forum for this as this is all for 4e stuff. I'd recommend you look up the 'previous editions' forums and post it there.

rampant

Mar 31, 2012 21:21:34

3.5 used the idea of monster as class, so the LA and the HD levels are part of the same class and treated as such.

Kigan

Mar 31, 2012 21:39:22

3.5 used the idea of monster as class, so the LA and the HD levels are part of the same class and treated as such.

Part of the same class? Yeah, but my question is about how that affects balnce in a gestalt game, as per the UA rules...

rampant

Apr 01, 2012 9:41:43

Basically yeah Gestalt helps LA races more than others.

On the other hand with the exception of really uber monsters like beholders, dragons, or generally extreme critters it's not enough to break the game.