I am going to convert some things in 3.5 so they can be used with the 4e game. Most people say this is not possible because the 2 systems are to diiferent but the two hardest things I think will be classes and spells and I already have plans for those. Hope this helps so one.
Ok first problem is HP.
Everyone starts with max HP plus their con score. They gain their HD as normal except DON"T add in your con bonus.
2nd: Saves:
Every class starts with a +2 to each AC that the 3.5 class has as a good save. AKA fighters get +2 fort AC where as monks gain +2 to all except AC. DON"T use the save table when leveling. You will be using 4e leveling and XP system.
3rd: Skills:
This I will cover later. You can use ether system you want. Plus I'll convert 3.5s to work with 4e and have the role playing skill. See skills part below.
4th:BAB
DON"T use BAB. You will be getting that the 4e way. Unless you like different classes having different BAB in which case use the 3.5 table for those.
5th:20+:
If you add on 10 epic levels on to the 20 levels build you will have for your class you have 30 levels. After 20th level use most of the epic rule with exception to max BAB unless you are using 3.5 BAB table.
6th: Spell progression:
Use your spell progression of 3.5 as normal. I am going to tell you how to convert the spell so they will work in in 4e. See spells part below.
7th: Feats:
Feats will be gained as 4e. I would not suggest using 3.5. You will be fighting 4e monsters and will need them.
You can pick epic feats, after 2oth, from 3.5 if you like but you and your DM might need to convert somethings about it first so let your DM know first then work together.
8th: Healing surges:
Fight types get 10, Divine casters get 8, and 6 for the rest, and then add con mods. Note; I consider monk with divine for this case only.
9th: items:
Will be using items from 4e. If you want a 3.5 item you will need to talk to your DM and convert it, together, over to 4e first. It is less of a head ache to just use 4e ones.
Barbarian:
Changed rage to PHB2 berserker strength. I minus 2 from all ACes and changed the HP thing to when blooded. Everything else stays the same.
Weapon we are using 4e ones. Barbarian Knows all simple melee and ranged and all martial melee. Armor is all light and shields. Also we are using 4e alignments so I have house ruled undecide limitations for barbarian instead of the 3.5 one since they don't have it in good or the in between ones. You could just use 3.5 alignments and it wouldn't change much of anything.
Monks
Add improved unarmed strike for monks and made it add a prof bonus on unarmed strikes.
Changed evasion to work like the minion ability, No damage on missed attacks.
Changed stunning fist to an encounter power that works twice per encounter once per round. (against will AC)
Added wis bonus to go on reflex as well as AC.
Added a lawful code to follow.
Changed flurry to an at will power that is a -2 to attacks and give an secondary attack on 1 creature in reach. 2 at 11th, and 3 at 21st.
If I missed any part of class let me know. Thanks.
Method one: Using 3.5 skills with skill points:
Just use 3.5s method although I would take out 3.5 spot, listen, and search and replace that with the 4e way. This is only optional but helps alot then having the players roll 3 different skills.
Method 2: Using 3.5 skills with 4e skill progression:
Each class skill goes up 1point per 2 levels and cross class skills go up 1point per 4 levels. Pick 4 class skills to be trained in. See 4e PHB for more details on skills.
Method3: Use 4e skills and just add the follow to the list.
Craft (Int), Profession (Wis), and Perform (Cha). Also add any other skill you want unless that skill is covered by 4e skills. see 4e PHB for details.
Most spell require a save. To use these in 4e you will just roll an attack roll using the ability mod based on the save. Fort=con mod, ref= dex mod, and will= wis mod. You also need to roll for each target. see 4e PHB under area attack for details on area.
Everything else like damage should work the same. Other issues I will deal with as they are brought up. Damage shouldn't be a problem, just use as per spell.
Some things may not work the same as in 3.5. Like spell areas. And 4e runs on space that is spell range in 3.5 divided by 5'. If you are having problems with this part post which spell/s and I'll see what I can do. Also make sure you go over the spells with your DM before hand. That way you both know how it works.
Specific spells:
Added as needed.
Movement
Movement runs on space. Divide your speed by 5' and that is your new speed. also some things work different with movement. See 4e PHB under movement for details.
Races
4e whisper Gnome:Switch out the bonuses in the 4e MM for a +2dex, +2 con. Take away the +2 arcana and add +2 perception. Change height to 3'6''-4' and lower wieght to 40-60. Add dark vision and change speed to 6.
Adding others as needed
Ok I will try this again. Please read this before merging to the bottomless thread. Thanks. Also any help will be welcome.
I amd going to convert some things in 3.5 so they can be used with the 4e game. Most people say this is not possible because the 2 systems are to diiferent but the two hardest things I think will be classes and spells and I already have plans for those. Hope this helps so one.
Awesome. Any idea what you're planning to convert?
Awesome. Any idea what you're planning to convert?
I am open to seggestion. I think I have covered most of the things people had a problem with in 4e. For the most part it should work. The only problem is I can't play test it yet because we just started 4e characters so it will be a few months before I get to see if any other rules need changed for it to work. If anyone would like to just use one or two specific rules not posted post them and I will try to see what I can do.
Also My wife said she would try this with me so I can post character and see what needs changed or what not. If your looking for rolling stats I would use the one in 4e. You will need the points. Points buy is 32 points in 3.5 if that help. We will most like go with the array, don't know yet.
If you want a 4e race. Switch out the bonuses in the 4e MM for a +2dex, +2 con. Take away the +2 arcana and add +2 perception. Change height to 3'6''-4' and lower wieght to 40-60. Add dark vision and change speed to 6.
Note: If you are using 3.5 small rule you will not get the armor bonuses and I don't think you get the +1 to attack but not sure about that so you might want to check.
So far I'm going 4e Dragonborn barbarian.
Some rules changes. Changed rage to PHB2 berserker strength. I minus 2 from all ACes and changed the HP thing to when blooded. Everything else stays the same.
Weapon we are using 4e ones. Barbarian Knows all simple melee and ranged and all martial melee. Armor is all light and shields. Also we are using 4e alignments so I have house ruled undecide limitations for barbarian instead of the 3.5 one since they don't have it in good or the in between ones. You could just use 3.5 alignments and it wouldn't change much of anything.
I'll help my wife and see if monk needs helps. Guess she will go law evil and I'll pull out my hair. If you do decide to go with a alignment specific class like these just use 3.5 alignments. Less head aches.
Classes
Ok first problem is HP.
Everyone starts with max HP plus their con score. They gain their HD as normal except DON"T add in your con bonus.
Actually it should be for starting hit points
15 + con score for d10's (perhaps even d12's)
12+ con score for d8,d6's
10 + con score for d4's
d4's should get 4 hit points per level
d6's, d8's should get 5 hit points per level
d10's should get 6 hit points per level
d12's have no clear example and most likely will be 6 hit points or possibly 8 hit points per level
2nd: Saves:
Every class starts with a +2 to each AC that the 3.5 class has as a good save. AKA fighters get +2 fort AC where as monks gain +2 to all except AC. DON"T use the save table when leveling. You will be using 4e leveling and XP system.
In 3.5 paladins good save was fort. However they had divine grace which added their cha bonus to saves. Because of this, typically speaking a paladin's good save was every save. To simulate that in 4th edition I believe that the designers in 4.0 made the paladin good at every defense. +1/+1/+1
Clerics have a +2 to will and fortitude saves in 3.5
however in 4.0 they have a +1 to will and +1 to fort defense.
Thus, Monks if anything should also get a +1 to all defenses rather than a +2.
7th: Feats:
Feats will be gained as 4e. I would not suggest using 3.5. You will be fighting 4e monsters and will need them.
You can pick epic feats, after 2oth, from 3.5 if you like but you and your DM might need to convert somethings about it first so let your DM know first then work together.
A good part of the feats in 3.5 were so situational that they could be pulled over as is. However, a good rule of thumb is to divide most numerical bonuses in half and more simplistic.
A good example of too complex is tactical feats from complete warrior/phb2.
8th: Healing surges:
Fight types get 10, Divine casters get 8, and 6 for the rest. Note; I consider monk with divine for this case only.
In 4th edition
Paladins have 10+ Constitution modifier
Fighters have 9+ Constitution Modifier,
Clerics and warlords get 7+ Constitution modifier
Rogues/rangers/warlocks/wizards get 6+Constitution modifier
Thus a better guideline for hit dice would be:
d4, d6's get 6+ con mod
d8's get 7+ con mod
d10's get 9+con mod
d12's probably should get 10+ con mod maybe 11.
the two exceptions to this rule are the paladin and the ranger. Since the ranger took a dive lower in terms of toughness. And the paladin seems more tough this time around. Because of this the ranger has 6 and the paladin has 10.
Thus a more accurate translation for the core phb would be:
druids 7+con mod
monks either 7+con mod or 6+con mod
barbarians 10+con mod (perhaps 11 is debatable)
sorcerers/bards 6+con mod
Spells
Most spell require a save. To use these in 4e you will just roll an attack roll using the ability mod based on the save. Fort=con mod, ref= dex mod, and will= wis mod. You also need to roll for each target. see 4e PHB under area attack for details on area.
Bear in mind that enhancement bonuses to implements also add to these attack rolls/damage rolls. Which isn't a big problem depending on which types of monsters you are using. Are you using 4th edition monsters or 3rd edition monsters?
Everything else like damage should work the same. Other issues I will deal with as they are brought up. Damage shouldn't be a problem, just use as per spell.
Actually damage is an issue. Take for example the spell fireball. in 3rd edition it does 1d6/caster level up to 10d6. Thus at level 5 it deals 5d6 which is average 17.5 damage.
in 4th edition fireball is 3d6 + int modifier. Which averages about to 10.5 + 3 ability modifier and +1 enhancement bonus = 14.5 3.5 damage no big deal.
3rd edition fireball at level 10 = 35 damage average
4th edition fireball is still doing 10.5 average + 4 ability modifier +2 enhancement bonus = 16.5
4th edition level 9 daily lightning serpent = 13 average +4 ability modifier +2 enhancement bonus +5 ongoing damage = 24 damage (maybe more depending on the luck of the saves)
Its basically 10 damage behind. Due to the scaling effect of many spells, they will overshadow their 4th edition counterparts. Also bear in mind would you be allowing saving throws against save or die effect spells?
Example#1: enemy caster uses wail of the banshee on the party, rolls his attack rolls against fort. Succeeds on all his rolls, everyone is dead.
Example #2: Enemy caster uses baleful polymorph on the party rogue, rolls an attack roll against fort defense. The caster succeeds, and the rogue is stuck as a frog.
Personally I think issues like this should be resolved like the wizard's sleep spell. Bad things should happen if you fail two saving throws rather than one lucky roll and you are out of the fight. 4th edition tried to steer away from things like that. So if you plan on converting spells, you should try to mesh with this train of thought.
Updated Example #1:
Round 1: Enemy caster uses wail of the banshee on the party, succeeds on his attack rolls. The entire party is now dazed.
The entire party fails their saving throws at the end of the round, the party is now weakened and dazed.
Round 2: The entire party yet again fails a saving throw. The entire party dies.
Updated Example #2:
Round 1: Enemy caster uses baleful polymorph on pc rouge, succeeds.Rogue is dazed.
Rogue fails first saving throw. Rogue is slowed and dazed.
Round 2: Rogue fails second saving throw, rogue is now a pretty little frog.
Some things may not work the same as in 3.5. Like spell areas. And 4e runs on space that is spell range in 3.5 divided by 5'. If you are having problems with this part post which spell/s and I'll see what I can do. Also make sure you go over the spells with your DM before hand. That way you both know how it works.
Spell distances actually seem more geared to the following formula (which ill have to adjust for in my bard class)
Close ranged spells = 5 squares
Medium ranged spells = 10 squares
Long ranged spells = 20 squares
Spreads, bursts and cylinders can use the following guidelines
5 feet radius = burst 1
15-20 foot radius = burst 2
20 feet radius = burst 3
25+ feet radius = Burst 5
Blasts seem to take over the cone and are usually relegated to blast 3, or blast 5. I haven't seen any bigger ones yet.
Lines don't seem to exist in 4th edition, it would have to be an ad-hoc using a straight wall or convert it into a blast of some sort.
But 3.5 users that don't like 4e have problems with the not rolling HD. Also I'm not converting the 3.5 classes to 4e classes but rather converting the classes so they can be used with the 4e games but keep the rules people like intack. In general the 3.5 classes will have lower HP and less powers then 4e classes do. So a +2 to AC I didn't see to over the top. I was thanking about uping the HD for the classes so they would be more in line with the 4e classes in which case I would lower the +2 to +1 AC.
Using my method they would be playing 3.5 paladin. Which means I would convert that divine grace stright over giving the class a +2 on all saves.
I raised the healing surges some to make up for the loss in HP. Your way is what I was going to do first but they would still have less HP for the ones who rolled. They can still use your way if they feel it is more to the way they want the game to run. I your don't mind I'll post a reference up there to this post for the other way. I'll wait for your response before doing it.
I don't plan On playing every class in 3.5 so I am hoping maybe someone who tries this on other classes will post problems for us to help with. I just want to make the method of converting as simple as possible. Thanks again.
Added fix on flurry and what AC the stunning fist goes on.
Ok thanks for the points.
But 3.5 users that don't like 4e have problems with the not rolling HD. Also I'm not converting the 3.5 classes to 4e classes but rather converting the classes so they can be used with the 4e games but keep the rules people like intack. In general the 3.5 classes will have lower HP and less powers then 4e classes do. So a +2 to AC I didn't see to over the top. I was thanking about uping the HD for the classes so they would be more in line with the 4e classes in which case I would lower the +2 to +1 AC.
Using my method they would be playing 3.5 paladin. Which means I would convert that divine grace stright over giving the class a +2 on all saves.
I raised the healing surges some to make up for the loss in HP. Your way is what I was going to do first but they would still have less HP for the ones who rolled. They can still use your way if they feel it is more to the way they want the game to run. I your don't mind I'll post a reference up there to this post for the other way. I'll wait for your response before doing it.
I don't plan On playing every class in 3.5 so I am hoping maybe someone who tries this on other classes will post problems for us to help with. I just want to make the method of converting as simple as possible. Thanks again.
Added fix on flurry and what AC the stunning fist goes on.
Actually you didn't mention adding constitution modifier to the number of healing surges.
Hit points for pc's in 3rd edition are higher than 4th edition in the long run of things. This is due to the scaling effect of constitution. And any pc worth his salt will get an enhancement bonus to constitution. While some classes such as the wizard get a little push up in the hit point chain, the higher hit dice classes take a dive. In addition, most high level pc's get inherent bonuses as well to stats which makes the gap go even more.
3.5 fighter with con 16 level 1= 13
4.0 fighter with con 16 level 1 =31
Base con = 20 (+2 item,+2 stats)
3.5 fighter level 10 = 59.5 average +50 con modifier = 100 hit points
Base Con = 18 (+2 stats)
4th edition fighter level 10 = 33 level 1 +54 due to leveling = 87 hit points
3.5 wizard with con 14 level 1 = 6
4.0 wizard with con 14 level 1 = 24
3.5 wizard with con 16 (+2 item) level 10 = 26.5 base + 30 con = 56.5
4.0 wizard with con 16 (+2 stat) level 10 = 26 base + 36 = 62
Bear in mind I am not including improved toughness, higher enhancement bonuses or rolling for hit points.
Also you mentioned some people like to roll for hit points. Due to that fact as well, it is quite possible for someone to get lucky and get above average rolls for hit points. Which means if you're running these pc's against 4th edition adventures/monsters, they have more hit points than normal, do more damage overall and have powers which dwarf even the greatest 4th edition archmage.
A lot of problems also arise with healing spells,such as does using cure light wounds activate a healing surge or just do 1d8+1/cl (max +5). In which case, why on earth would you have healing surges, you'll never use them other than the occasional second wind. Just carry a trusty bag with wands of cure light wounds and you'll be fine out of combat.
Also bear in mind that 3.5 casters have way more spells and can repeat them more often than 4th edition ones. This is not including wands/staffs either.
I don't want to put the idea down, but I just want you to consider that there is a cascading domino effect on the balance of the game with a "quick fix and let it ride" mentality. This is the reason 3.0-3.5 suffered in the spell department is because the designers didn't think things through and copy pasted a vast majority of the spells from 2nd edition. Great for flavor, bad for balance.
As for posting my ideas, you can if you wish I have no problem with that. It seems to me that you are trying to make a 3.75 middle ground rather than a straight 3.5 to 4th edition conversion, in which case I might have been going about this the wrong way.
Ok first problem is HP.
Everyone starts with max HP plus their con score. They gain their HD as normal except DON"T add in your con bonus.
So the 4e as you have said gains 87 points at 10th.
3.5 fighter HP=10 +18=28 + 49 (rounded down)=77
that is ten less.
Now 4e fighter will have 9+4=13 healing surges. Those will heal 21 each putting the 4e fighter at healing 13 *21= 263
3.5 fighter will have 10+4=14 healing surges. Those will heal 19 each putting there total at 14 * 19= 256.
I could up them to 11 but the would put them over the 4e fighter by 12 points.
I'm switching those to heal max 8 points, depending on spell level, plus caster level max as normal. I have gotten into the spells yet. I will have allot of work with them but for the most part some will convert right over. Some are already been done and it will be up to the DM to decide which type to use.
Some rules changes. Changed rage to PHB2 berserker strength. I minus 2 from all ACes and changed the HP thing to when blooded. Everything else stays the same.
Weapon we are using 4e ones. Barbarian Knows all simple melee and ranged and all martial melee. Armor is all light and shields. Also we are using 4e alignments so I have house ruled undecide limitations for barbarian instead of the 3.5 one since they don't have it in good or the in between ones. You could just use 3.5 alignments and it wouldn't change much of anything.
I for got to add it to the top so thanks for that to.
Thanks I fixed the con mod thing. The idea on spells is for each DM to take each spell as it comes up and fix it then. That way each spell is handled and both the DM and the player has the spell work the way they want.
So if my wife wanted to become a wizard she would pick her spells as normal and we would both look at her picks and decide if any changes needed made to them other then the attack roll stuff and range of the blast/area effect.
Wail of the banshee
creature is reduced to negative HP = to the casters level but not equal to or exceeding the negative blooded. Creature then rolls death saves as normal or can be healed by another ally. I would use this rule even on monsters even though they would not normal get this.
Baneful polymorph
Switch it to not being permanent. At the end of creatures turn they get to save to end the effect.
I would like to point out that the DM would be using 4e monsters and NPCs and they would have access to save or die spells that I know of.
Also plan to convert whole of body to work like this.
Monks gets to add their con mod to healing surge value. Can use a healing surge in battle to heal others or him self 2 per encounter. This is a encounter power. goes to 3 at 11th and 4 at 21st. What do you think?