3.5/Pathfinder feel for the 4e Bard. - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

3.5/Pathfinder feel for the 4e Bard.

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
mhbjarkistef
Dec 08, 2011 21:50:16 I recently became fascinated by the bard (k-dum-tsh).

After having a bit fun with the 4e Bard and Skald I decided to take a look-see at what the old Bards had to offer, where all these features originally came from.
Since I have the Pathfinder Core at home I decided to look at his class features and eventually made my self a Pathfinder Bard.

I. Love. This. Class.

After making 5 different bards in 2 different systems while listening to medival celtic flute and lute music I was a bit saddened by one thing; that after this I would always think "ahhh, but I wish I had the other system's bard's features..." when playing a bard. No matter which system I'd play, I'd always feel like something the other Bard has was missing. Both bards have something the other one is lacking, and this gave me an idea.

Can I make a 3.5-style bard using 4e? Now there's an idea. I tried a few things, and instead of making a Skald with some modifications or a Bard with some modifications, I ended up with a hybrid. I made a Bard|Rogue.

One problem: The 3.5 Bard could go melee, or he could go spellcaster/controller, he could even go archery, and he was the only core arcane caster that had healing spells on his class list. He was so versatile and could go so many ways that I knew that I could never make a perfect mash-up of all the builds, but I could pick one of them and go from there, that's how I ended up with a hybrid.

I went with the melee build, the one that is as much a spellcaster or a performer as it is a rogue, since that was the one I felt like I'd have the most fun playing. Eventually I had all the features I wanted: I had the melee prowess, I had the skills, I had the auras and after tinkering a bit I only had one problem: I had a healing spell I couldn't get rid of, and no way to "Fascinate" my target.
This is why I'm on the homebrew forum; I gave myself a bonus feat.

Note that this was made for my HYBRID bard. Since there is no Hybrid Skald I was stuck with Majestic Word and nothing I could do about it, except homebrew:

True Bard
Prerequisite: Bard, Majestic Word Feature
Benefit: You lose your Majestic Word power, and instead you gain the Fascinate Feat Power.

Fascinate Feat Power
You weave arcane maginc into yourperformance, enchanting your target.
Encounter (special) · Implement, Arcane, Charm
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One non-hostile creature
Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Hit: The target becomes Fascinated. The target sits quietly and observes the performance until the start of your next turn. You can end this effect as a free action. While fascinated the target takes a -5 penalty to passive perception and cannot take any immediate actions. Any potential threat grants the target a saving throw against this effect. Any obvious threat, such as somone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a weapon at the target automatically breaks the effect. If the effect is broken by a threat the target can take a standard action as an immediate interrupt. A creature can only be targeted by this spell once per day, and must be able to to see or hear you for the duration of the effect.
You can use this power as many times per encounter as you would be able to use your Majestic Word power
You can target one additional creature at level 6, 11, 16, 21 and 26.
Sustain Standard: You maintain the performance.

"You can use this power as many times per encounter as you would be able to use your Majestic Word power" This line is not only crucial for scaling reasons, but this also means that a Hybrid Bard can take it with the appropriate limitations.

Remember, the spell is only broken if the target SEES that there's a threat. Remember that it's aldready distracted, can't make reactive perceptions checks and takes a penalty to passive perception. Go behind him, roll a stealth check (for melee) or Arcana check (for spell) to conceal your attack and get one free attack. You just got your self some combat advantage and time to position yourselves if you where heading into a combat encounter anyways.

The rest of the old class skills such as Bardic Performance, Bardic Knowledge etc are pretty much taken care of by the Bard features and the new powers that came with the Skald. (I'll work on "Suggestion" sometime later, most likely as a level 6 utility power)

I was pretty happy with my result, and after all this work and tinkering I just had to bring my build here. 'cause I love you guys, and when I do something that I put so much heart in I have to share it with you :D

When I made a Pathfinder Bard I only leveled it up to level 3, and I've never played 4e above Heroic tier, so there's probably a lot missing here that I haven't accounted for. As of now I'll just do the Fascinate, and then later I'll do Suggestion.

This is the entire class, hope you like it :D
There are 2 encounter powers that I've yet to pick, and the utility powers are pretty much exchangable, but please bare in mind that this is my actual character for a game that's about to start. It's very accurate to my personal taste for this particular game and all very... personal in general.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Tumnus the Tentuvus, level 5
Changeling, Bard/Rogue
Hybrid Bard Option: Hybrid Bard Will
Becomer Option: Athletics Bonus
Birth - On Another Plane (+2 to Arcana)
Theme: Wizard's Apprentice

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 8, CON 11, DEX 18, INT 14, WIS 12, CHA 18

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 8, CON 11, DEX 15, INT 14, WIS 12, CHA 15

AC: 19 Fort: 13 Ref: 18 Will: 19
HP: 43 Surges: 6 Surge Value: 10

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +11, Athletics +8, Bluff +13, Diplomacy +11, Stealth +11, Thievery +11

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +10, Dungeoneering +7, Endurance +6, Heal +7, History +8, Insight +9, Intimidate +10, Nature +7, Perception +7, Religion +8, Streetwise +10

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Wizard's Apprentice Attack: Color Orb
Changeling Racial Power: Changeling Disguise
Changeling Racial Power: Changeling Trick
Feat Power: Fascinate
Bard Attack 1: Cutting Words
Rogue Attack 1: Piercing Strike
Bard Attack 1: Dirge of the Damned
Bard Utility 2: Beguiling Ballad
Rogue Attack 5: Go for the Eyes

FEATS
Bonus: True Bard
Level 1: Ritual Caster
Level 2: Becomer
Level 4: Bard of All Trades

ITEMS
Magic Leather Armor +1 x1
Adventurer's Kit
Climber's Kit
Thieves' Tools
Woodwind
Footpads
Gambler's gear
Gambling cheats
Wavestrider Boots
Bard's Songblade Dagger +2 x1
Spidersilk Mantle +1 x1
Knock
Last Sight Vision
Lullaby
====== End ======

Build Notes:

I picked Changeling for the Dex/Cha bonus, and reasons specific to my campaign.
Originally I had "Dualist's Panache" instead of Becomer. But since Become gives me a +2 racial bonus to a skill and one language, and no longer needed the background benefit to learn the language I wanted to learn and therefor gained two racial bonuses and a really cool feature in exchange for +4 Athletics.

Bard Attack 1: Dirge of the Damned
Bard Utility 2: Beguiling Ballad

These two spells are really flavourful. One of them is reminescent of the old Bardic Performances and the other one kinda reminds me of how the Bard could enchant creatures in a magical way, like Fascinate, Suggestion and even Distraction.

Lullaby is actually the Sleep spell mixed with the old feat Spellsong.

Piercing Strike I picked for accuracy, and I've actually yet to decide on the other at-will power. It'll definetly be a ranged implement power, but I don't know which one.

I am trained in 6 skills and I think I have an avarage of ca. +9 in each spell. That's pretty impressive xD

The only thing i'd like to add to this specific character would be Imposter's Armor, but I'll have to ask my DM since it's not available as a Leather armor.

#2
rampant
Dec 08, 2011 22:54:42 I'd suggest allowing them to use either power off the same pool of uses. Class feature powers are not the kind of thing you remove with a feat. Treat it like a channel divinity feat the number of uses doesn't increase but they can use either power a total number of times as an un-feated character could use the original power.

In fact it could be re-formatted to a low level utility power.
#3
mhbjarkistef
Dec 08, 2011 23:05:53 Not a bad idea, but seeing how one is more used in combat and the other out of combat, what is the difference between that and just givin him both powers?
Remember you can't randomaly fascinate a orc charging your way; the creature must have the will to pay attention to your performance. I like the idea, but wouldn't that be adding a feature and therefor disrupting the balance of the class?

I was wondering about the spells. The 3.5 bard could cast many of the same spells as the sorcerer or wizard... Should we add that in or try to stick to making only minor changes?
#4
rampant
Dec 08, 2011 23:53:10 Simple if it hasn't been at least five minutes since you tried to fascinate someone then you're down a majestic word or two when the fight starts. Thus the old sing-and-sting starts to be a question of whether the sting is worth the sing.

However it would probably be simpler to make this a bard utility. I mean how many times in an encounter can you generally use fascinate anyway so why not just make it a second or sixth level bard utility?
#5
nb_nmare
Dec 09, 2011 1:59:42
I'd suggest allowing them to use either power off the same pool of uses. Class feature powers are not the kind of thing you remove with a feat.

Not true. Several of the feats in Class Compendium: Feats article let you swap class features (e.g. School of Magic Apprentice lets you trade Arcane Implement Mastery for School of Magic Apprentice, and Templar's Domain causes you to lose Healer's Lore and gain a 1st-level divine domain feature), as does Skald Training training in Heroes of the Feywild (lose majestic word, gain skald's aura).

Anyway, I've homebrewed a few 3.5E inspired bard powers myself, such as inspire courage, inspire greatness, and inspire heroics (2nd, 6th, and 16th level utility powers respectively). I implemented fascinate in a slightly different way (as a 1st level daily power), and also came up with a feat to emulate suggestion. Here's a slightly tweak version that's compatible with the True Bard feat above:

Bardic Suggestion
Prerequisite: 6th level, True Bard feat
Benefit: You gain the bardic suggestion feat power.

Bardic Suggestion Feat Power
You thread a spell of compulsion into a creature already enchanted by your performance.
At-Will · Arcane, Charm, Implement
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One creature subject to your fascinate power
Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Hit: The target takes a single standard action or move action of your choice.
Special: The only powers you can make the target use are at-will powers.
#6
mhbjarkistef
Dec 09, 2011 5:54:33 I like the "suggestion", and I'm sure as hell that it's more balanced than the one hour duration of the orginal spell xD

I would love to see your utility powers, if you wouldn't mind ^^

For this particular character I'll keep the feat like it is. We have a healer and I'd rather not "steal his role", I know that's how I would feel if I we're playing a leader and some skill monkey with sneak attack would start healing for me x)

But for general use and purposes the "same pool of usage" probably works great, bu nbnmare is right; swapping out entire class features is the new cool these days; all the cool kids are doing it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 mhbjarkistef Dec 08, 2011 21:50:16	I recently became fascinated by the bard (k-dum-tsh). After having a bit fun with the 4e Bard and Skald I decided to take a look-see at what the old Bards had to offer, where all these features originally came from. Since I have the Pathfinder Core at home I decided to look at his class features and eventually made my self a Pathfinder Bard. I. Love. This. Class. After making 5 different bards in 2 different systems while listening to medival celtic flute and lute music I was a bit saddened by one thing; that after this I would always think "ahhh, but I wish I had the other system's bard's features..." when playing a bard. No matter which system I'd play, I'd always feel like something the other Bard has was missing. Both bards have something the other one is lacking, and this gave me an idea. Can I make a 3.5-style bard using 4e? Now there's an idea. I tried a few things, and instead of making a Skald with some modifications or a Bard with some modifications, I ended up with a hybrid. I made a Bard\|Rogue. One problem: The 3.5 Bard could go melee, or he could go spellcaster/controller, he could even go archery, and he was the only core arcane caster that had healing spells on his class list. He was so versatile and could go so many ways that I knew that I could never make a perfect mash-up of all the builds, but I could pick one of them and go from there, that's how I ended up with a hybrid. I went with the melee build, the one that is as much a spellcaster or a performer as it is a rogue, since that was the one I felt like I'd have the most fun playing. Eventually I had all the features I wanted: I had the melee prowess, I had the skills, I had the auras and after tinkering a bit I only had one problem: I had a healing spell I couldn't get rid of, and no way to "Fascinate" my target. This is why I'm on the homebrew forum; I gave myself a bonus feat. Note that this was made for my HYBRID bard. Since there is no Hybrid Skald I was stuck with Majestic Word and nothing I could do about it, except homebrew: True Bard Prerequisite: Bard, Majestic Word Feature Benefit: You lose your Majestic Word power, and instead you gain the Fascinate Feat Power. Fascinate Feat Power You weave arcane maginc into yourperformance, enchanting your target. Encounter (special) · Implement, Arcane, Charm Standard Action Ranged 10 Target: One non-hostile creature Attack: Charisma vs. Will Hit: The target becomes Fascinated. The target sits quietly and observes the performance until the start of your next turn. You can end this effect as a free action. While fascinated the target takes a -5 penalty to passive perception and cannot take any immediate actions. Any potential threat grants the target a saving throw against this effect. Any obvious threat, such as somone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a weapon at the target automatically breaks the effect. If the effect is broken by a threat the target can take a standard action as an immediate interrupt. A creature can only be targeted by this spell once per day, and must be able to to see or hear you for the duration of the effect. You can use this power as many times per encounter as you would be able to use your Majestic Word power You can target one additional creature at level 6, 11, 16, 21 and 26. Sustain Standard: You maintain the performance. "You can use this power as many times per encounter as you would be able to use your Majestic Word power" This line is not only crucial for scaling reasons, but this also means that a Hybrid Bard can take it with the appropriate limitations. Remember, the spell is only broken if the target SEES that there's a threat. Remember that it's aldready distracted, can't make reactive perceptions checks and takes a penalty to passive perception. Go behind him, roll a stealth check (for melee) or Arcana check (for spell) to conceal your attack and get one free attack. You just got your self some combat advantage and time to position yourselves if you where heading into a combat encounter anyways. The rest of the old class skills such as Bardic Performance, Bardic Knowledge etc are pretty much taken care of by the Bard features and the new powers that came with the Skald. (I'll work on "Suggestion" sometime later, most likely as a level 6 utility power) I was pretty happy with my result, and after all this work and tinkering I just had to bring my build here. 'cause I love you guys, and when I do something that I put so much heart in I have to share it with you :D When I made a Pathfinder Bard I only leveled it up to level 3, and I've never played 4e above Heroic tier, so there's probably a lot missing here that I haven't accounted for. As of now I'll just do the Fascinate, and then later I'll do Suggestion. This is the entire class, hope you like it :D There are 2 encounter powers that I've yet to pick, and the utility powers are pretty much exchangable, but please bare in mind that this is my actual character for a game that's about to start. It's very accurate to my personal taste for this particular game and all very... personal in general. ====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ====== Tumnus the Tentuvus, level 5 Changeling, Bard/Rogue Hybrid Bard Option: Hybrid Bard Will Becomer Option: Athletics Bonus Birth - On Another Plane (+2 to Arcana) Theme: Wizard's Apprentice FINAL ABILITY SCORES STR 8, CON 11, DEX 18, INT 14, WIS 12, CHA 18 STARTING ABILITY SCORES STR 8, CON 11, DEX 15, INT 14, WIS 12, CHA 15 AC: 19 Fort: 13 Ref: 18 Will: 19 HP: 43 Surges: 6 Surge Value: 10 TRAINED SKILLS Arcana +11, Athletics +8, Bluff +13, Diplomacy +11, Stealth +11, Thievery +11 UNTRAINED SKILLS Acrobatics +10, Dungeoneering +7, Endurance +6, Heal +7, History +8, Insight +9, Intimidate +10, Nature +7, Perception +7, Religion +8, Streetwise +10 POWERS Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack Wizard's Apprentice Attack: Color Orb Changeling Racial Power: Changeling Disguise Changeling Racial Power: Changeling Trick Feat Power: Fascinate Bard Attack 1: Cutting Words Rogue Attack 1: Piercing Strike Bard Attack 1: Dirge of the Damned Bard Utility 2: Beguiling Ballad Rogue Attack 5: Go for the Eyes FEATS Bonus: True Bard Level 1: Ritual Caster Level 2: Becomer Level 4: Bard of All Trades ITEMS Magic Leather Armor +1 x1 Adventurer's Kit Climber's Kit Thieves' Tools Woodwind Footpads Gambler's gear Gambling cheats Wavestrider Boots Bard's Songblade Dagger +2 x1 Spidersilk Mantle +1 x1 Knock Last Sight Vision Lullaby ====== End ====== Build Notes: I picked Changeling for the Dex/Cha bonus, and reasons specific to my campaign. Originally I had "Dualist's Panache" instead of Becomer. But since Become gives me a +2 racial bonus to a skill and one language, and no longer needed the background benefit to learn the language I wanted to learn and therefor gained two racial bonuses and a really cool feature in exchange for +4 Athletics. Bard Attack 1: Dirge of the Damned Bard Utility 2: Beguiling Ballad These two spells are really flavourful. One of them is reminescent of the old Bardic Performances and the other one kinda reminds me of how the Bard could enchant creatures in a magical way, like Fascinate, Suggestion and even Distraction. Lullaby is actually the Sleep spell mixed with the old feat Spellsong. Piercing Strike I picked for accuracy, and I've actually yet to decide on the other at-will power. It'll definetly be a ranged implement power, but I don't know which one. I am trained in 6 skills and I think I have an avarage of ca. +9 in each spell. That's pretty impressive xD The only thing i'd like to add to this specific character would be Imposter's Armor, but I'll have to ask my DM since it's not available as a Leather armor.
#2 rampant Dec 08, 2011 22:54:42	I'd suggest allowing them to use either power off the same pool of uses. Class feature powers are not the kind of thing you remove with a feat. Treat it like a channel divinity feat the number of uses doesn't increase but they can use either power a total number of times as an un-feated character could use the original power. In fact it could be re-formatted to a low level utility power.
#3 mhbjarkistef Dec 08, 2011 23:05:53	Not a bad idea, but seeing how one is more used in combat and the other out of combat, what is the difference between that and just givin him both powers? Remember you can't randomaly fascinate a orc charging your way; the creature must have the will to pay attention to your performance. I like the idea, but wouldn't that be adding a feature and therefor disrupting the balance of the class? I was wondering about the spells. The 3.5 bard could cast many of the same spells as the sorcerer or wizard... Should we add that in or try to stick to making only minor changes?
#4 rampant Dec 08, 2011 23:53:10	Simple if it hasn't been at least five minutes since you tried to fascinate someone then you're down a majestic word or two when the fight starts. Thus the old sing-and-sting starts to be a question of whether the sting is worth the sing. However it would probably be simpler to make this a bard utility. I mean how many times in an encounter can you generally use fascinate anyway so why not just make it a second or sixth level bard utility?
#5 nb_nmare Dec 09, 2011 1:59:42	I'd suggest allowing them to use either power off the same pool of uses. Class feature powers are not the kind of thing you remove with a feat. Not true. Several of the feats in Class Compendium: Feats article let you swap class features (e.g. School of Magic Apprentice lets you trade Arcane Implement Mastery for School of Magic Apprentice, and Templar's Domain causes you to lose Healer's Lore and gain a 1st-level divine domain feature), as does Skald Training training in Heroes of the Feywild (lose majestic word, gain skald's aura). Anyway, I've homebrewed a few 3.5E inspired bard powers myself, such as inspire courage, inspire greatness, and inspire heroics (2nd, 6th, and 16th level utility powers respectively). I implemented fascinate in a slightly different way (as a 1st level daily power), and also came up with a feat to emulate suggestion. Here's a slightly tweak version that's compatible with the True Bard feat above: Bardic Suggestion Prerequisite: 6th level, True Bard feat Benefit: You gain the bardic suggestion feat power. Bardic Suggestion Feat Power You thread a spell of compulsion into a creature already enchanted by your performance. At-Will · Arcane, Charm, Implement Standard Action Ranged 10 Target: One creature subject to your fascinate power Attack: Charisma vs. Will Hit: The target takes a single standard action or move action of your choice. Special: The only powers you can make the target use are at-will powers.
#6 mhbjarkistef Dec 09, 2011 5:54:33	I like the "suggestion", and I'm sure as hell that it's more balanced than the one hour duration of the orginal spell xD I would love to see your utility powers, if you wouldn't mind ^^ For this particular character I'll keep the feat like it is. We have a healer and I'd rather not "steal his role", I know that's how I would feel if I we're playing a leader and some skill monkey with sneak attack would start healing for me x) But for general use and purposes the "same pool of usage" probably works great, bu nbnmare is right; swapping out entire class features is the new cool these days; all the cool kids are doing it.