3.5E to 4E monster conversion - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

3.5E to 4E monster conversion

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
tyrantlobe
Jun 11, 2011 11:35:21 I'm looking to convert some 3.5E monsters to 4E, specifically dinosaurs (my Forest Ridge in my Dark Sun game is going to be a bit of a Jurassic Park). I know there's no hard science to converting monsters across rulesets, but I'm trying to figure out how best to determine the level of the creature in 4E. Which is a better stick to measure by: 3.5E's Hit Dice or Challenge Rating?

Thanks for any help.
#2
slobo777a
Jun 11, 2011 12:12:12 My advise: Ignore all the numbers when converting. Perhaps use the stats in 3.5 as a guide to 4E.

About the only things you can transfer from 3.5 to 4E are thematic elements, such as fire creatures doing fire damage type.

If you want to match 3.5's CR to 4E's level system, it's not necessary, but there's nothing stopping you. I would suggest that you could follow a system like this:

For a solo monster, 4E's level = CR

For an elite monster, 4E's level = CR + 3

For a standard monster, 4E's level = CR + 5

For a minion monster, 4E's level = CR + 9*

. . . but that is just something I made up, and also something that demonstrates a major difference between 4E and 3.5 - there are two fairly well structured difficulty categories for 4E monsters - level and solo/elite/standard/minion, applied at the same time to build encounters. 3.5 has a single power/effect rating system based on a hit-dice based monster build system with guesswork about add-ons.

* These values haven't come from magic. They are based on assuming you want to maintain the monster-to-PC relative power level, and on the observation from 3.5 that 2 monsters of CR x are considered an equal encounter to one monster of CR x+2.

#3
slobo777a
Jun 11, 2011 12:42:26 To illustrate my ad-hoc conversion "rules", let's take a dinosoar standard:

Tyranosaurus Rex.

In v3.5, the basic version is rated CR 8.

That is, an 8th level party should find one of them a significant encounter, and use 20% or so of their resources. In 4E that maps pretty closely to being a solo monster, level 8 - something that a team at the top-end of Heroic Tier could face in combat.

In 3.5, the CR system expects a 10th-level party to handle 2 T Rex's. If you put 2x4E elite monsters into an encounter, you still have space for more to fill out the numbers. Upping the level slightly would seem to make sense. So you could build your T.Rex as an Elite level 11 and the power balance for the level is roughly the same.

In 3.5, according to CR, a 13th level party could probably handle a pack of 4-8 basic T.Rex. So we could alos build them as Standard level 13.

Finally, in 3.5, the CR rules would fail us miserably if we want to pitch a clan of 15-25 T.Rex, but by extension on the double monsters = +2 CR, we can make "minion" full grown T.Rex at 4E level 17.

In practice, in 4E you'd probably make the juvenile dinosaurs minions at the same level you felt appropriate to introduce the adult dinosoars.

#4
tyrantlobe
Jun 11, 2011 13:42:22 Interesting. I hadn't really thought about framing it in terms of 3.5's Organization cycle vs. 4E's solo/elite/standard/minion model. I was more concerned with just creating a representation of the listed monster in 3.5. You've given me something to think about.

Thanks!
#5
bone_naga
Jun 11, 2011 15:12:20 In the end, the dinosaurs can be whatever level you need them to be to make use of them. A T-Rex could be a level 8 solo or a standard level 20 or anything in between without breaking suspension of disbelief. So long as he doesn't show up as a level 3 minion without a very good reason, you'll be all right. As long as the monster works and the players find it believable, who cares if the stats match up even remotely between the two editions?
#6
slobo777a
Jun 12, 2011 5:05:12
Interesting. I hadn't really thought about framing it in terms of 3.5's Organization cycle vs. 4E's solo/elite/standard/minion model. I was more concerned with just creating a representation of the listed monster in 3.5. You've given me something to think about.

Thanks!

Well, even though the math I presented can be backed up with some logic, I'd really only use it as a rough guide if you are concerned about players getting a "feel" from relative monster power in 3.5 . . . the 4E monster designers felt free enough to mess with power levels, and so should you.

Your original concerns just aren't that addressable. There's no math-based conversion from 3.5 to 4E, and pretty much you need to build the 4E monster from scratch. If you have, or can get hold of, the original Adventure Tools/Monster Builder, then actually this is really very easy, much quicker than doing the same thing in 3.5 . . . even without the tool, the (updated) DMG guidelines give all you need for the "vanilla" math of a monster with a specific role and level, then you just tweak things to get the feel right.

#7
tyrantlobe
Jun 12, 2011 9:30:39 Understood. Like I said, there's no clean, hard science to conversion. And i still have the original Adventure Tools. They're going to have to pry that one from my cold, dead hands.

So, here's my level 9 Solo Tyrannasaurus Rex. It has elements from the 3.5 Rex and some others that I threw in. Let me know what you think, as this is my first real stab at creating my own monster.

#8
pluisjen
Jun 12, 2011 10:35:31 Most dinosaurs are converted to 4e under the categories of Drakes and Behemoths.

For a T-rex, check out the Fang Titan Drake (level 18 Controller)
#9
bone_naga
Jun 15, 2011 15:00:41 Also check out Critter Cache: Prehistoric Beasts from Goodman Games.
#10
Movanic
Jun 18, 2011 15:03:32
I would suggest that you could follow a system like this:

For a solo monster, 4E's level = CR

For an elite monster, 4E's level = CR + 3

For a standard monster, 4E's level = CR + 5

For a minion monster, 4E's level = CR + 9*

This got me thinking, I've been meaning to ask for thoughts on the solo-elite-standard-minion progression by level (for the "same" creature). I understand and applaud the "no hard and fast rules" for monster creation/conversion, but I find myself always in need of general (but quantified) guidelines.

So I'm wondering, if we start off with the standard monsters, how many levels until it becomes an elite, a solo, or a minion ?

The monster I'm finding to be the best example for this at low to mid heroic would be ogres : how iconic for a band of goblins to be headed by a bloated ogre ? Would it be appropriate to make a lvl5 solo ?

So it'd go something like: -6 levels, you become a solo, -3 levels you become elite, +5 levels you become a minion ?

#11
slobo777a
Jun 20, 2011 3:55:47

I would suggest that you could follow a system like this:

For a solo monster, 4E's level = CR

For an elite monster, 4E's level = CR + 3

For a standard monster, 4E's level = CR + 5

For a minion monster, 4E's level = CR + 9*

This got me thinking, I've been meaning to ask for thoughts on the solo-elite-standard-minion progression by level (for the "same" creature). I understand and applaud the "no hard and fast rules" for monster creation/conversion, but I find myself always in need of general (but quantified) guidelines.

So I'm wondering, if we start off with the standard monsters, how many levels until it becomes an elite, a solo, or a minion ?

The monster I'm finding to be the best example for this at low to mid heroic would be ogres : how iconic for a band of goblins to be headed by a bloated ogre ? Would it be appropriate to make a lvl5 solo ?

So it'd go something like: -6 levels, you become a solo, -3 levels you become elite, +5 levels you become a minion ?

Yes, I already do this as a a rule of thumb. For instance, I have re-statted a troll as single dangerous opponents at Lvl 6, in a way that is still in keeping with what IMO the players should expect when their heroic PCs encounter a troll. You need to add more than hitpoints, action points and save, mind. A solo needs additional powers, and often something cool to do with its minor and immediate actions. With the troll, I am going to give it ability to shake off conditions (after all the Paragon level trolls the PCs wouldn't even be able to hit and make their conditions stick in the first place!)

Edit: With an Ogre leading a group of Goblins, I might give it leadership powers based on it bullying the little goblins about ("Get in there!" )

This is just a guideline, it can't be applied to everything. Some creatures would simply feel wrong as minions, some would feel wrong as solos.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 tyrantlobe Jun 11, 2011 11:35:21	I'm looking to convert some 3.5E monsters to 4E, specifically dinosaurs (my Forest Ridge in my Dark Sun game is going to be a bit of a Jurassic Park). I know there's no hard science to converting monsters across rulesets, but I'm trying to figure out how best to determine the level of the creature in 4E. Which is a better stick to measure by: 3.5E's Hit Dice or Challenge Rating? Thanks for any help.
#2 slobo777a Jun 11, 2011 12:12:12	My advise: Ignore all the numbers when converting. Perhaps use the stats in 3.5 as a guide to 4E. About the only things you can transfer from 3.5 to 4E are thematic elements, such as fire creatures doing fire damage type. If you want to match 3.5's CR to 4E's level system, it's not necessary, but there's nothing stopping you. I would suggest that you could follow a system like this: For a solo monster, 4E's level = CR For an elite monster, 4E's level = CR + 3 For a standard monster, 4E's level = CR + 5 For a minion monster, 4E's level = CR + 9* . . . but that is just something I made up, and also something that demonstrates a major difference between 4E and 3.5 - there are two fairly well structured difficulty categories for 4E monsters - level and solo/elite/standard/minion, applied at the same time to build encounters. 3.5 has a single power/effect rating system based on a hit-dice based monster build system with guesswork about add-ons. * These values haven't come from magic. They are based on assuming you want to maintain the monster-to-PC relative power level, and on the observation from 3.5 that 2 monsters of CR x are considered an equal encounter to one monster of CR x+2.
#3 slobo777a Jun 11, 2011 12:42:26	To illustrate my ad-hoc conversion "rules", let's take a dinosoar standard: Tyranosaurus Rex. In v3.5, the basic version is rated CR 8. That is, an 8th level party should find one of them a significant encounter, and use 20% or so of their resources. In 4E that maps pretty closely to being a solo monster, level 8 - something that a team at the top-end of Heroic Tier could face in combat. In 3.5, the CR system expects a 10th-level party to handle 2 T Rex's. If you put 2x4E elite monsters into an encounter, you still have space for more to fill out the numbers. Upping the level slightly would seem to make sense. So you could build your T.Rex as an Elite level 11 and the power balance for the level is roughly the same. In 3.5, according to CR, a 13th level party could probably handle a pack of 4-8 basic T.Rex. So we could alos build them as Standard level 13. Finally, in 3.5, the CR rules would fail us miserably if we want to pitch a clan of 15-25 T.Rex, but by extension on the double monsters = +2 CR, we can make "minion" full grown T.Rex at 4E level 17. In practice, in 4E you'd probably make the juvenile dinosaurs minions at the same level you felt appropriate to introduce the adult dinosoars.
#4 tyrantlobe Jun 11, 2011 13:42:22	Interesting. I hadn't really thought about framing it in terms of 3.5's Organization cycle vs. 4E's solo/elite/standard/minion model. I was more concerned with just creating a representation of the listed monster in 3.5. You've given me something to think about. Thanks!
#5 bone_naga Jun 11, 2011 15:12:20	In the end, the dinosaurs can be whatever level you need them to be to make use of them. A T-Rex could be a level 8 solo or a standard level 20 or anything in between without breaking suspension of disbelief. So long as he doesn't show up as a level 3 minion without a very good reason, you'll be all right. As long as the monster works and the players find it believable, who cares if the stats match up even remotely between the two editions?
#6 slobo777a Jun 12, 2011 5:05:12	Interesting. I hadn't really thought about framing it in terms of 3.5's Organization cycle vs. 4E's solo/elite/standard/minion model. I was more concerned with just creating a representation of the listed monster in 3.5. You've given me something to think about. Thanks! Well, even though the math I presented can be backed up with some logic, I'd really only use it as a rough guide if you are concerned about players getting a "feel" from relative monster power in 3.5 . . . the 4E monster designers felt free enough to mess with power levels, and so should you. Your original concerns just aren't that addressable. There's no math-based conversion from 3.5 to 4E, and pretty much you need to build the 4E monster from scratch. If you have, or can get hold of, the original Adventure Tools/Monster Builder, then actually this is really very easy, much quicker than doing the same thing in 3.5 . . . even without the tool, the (updated) DMG guidelines give all you need for the "vanilla" math of a monster with a specific role and level, then you just tweak things to get the feel right.
#7 tyrantlobe Jun 12, 2011 9:30:39	Understood. Like I said, there's no clean, hard science to conversion. And i still have the original Adventure Tools. They're going to have to pry that one from my cold, dead hands. So, here's my level 9 Solo Tyrannasaurus Rex. It has elements from the 3.5 Rex and some others that I threw in. Let me know what you think, as this is my first real stab at creating my own monster.
#8 pluisjen Jun 12, 2011 10:35:31	Most dinosaurs are converted to 4e under the categories of Drakes and Behemoths. For a T-rex, check out the Fang Titan Drake (level 18 Controller)
#9 bone_naga Jun 15, 2011 15:00:41	Also check out Critter Cache: Prehistoric Beasts from Goodman Games.
#10 Movanic Jun 18, 2011 15:03:32	I would suggest that you could follow a system like this: For a solo monster, 4E's level = CR For an elite monster, 4E's level = CR + 3 For a standard monster, 4E's level = CR + 5 For a minion monster, 4E's level = CR + 9* This got me thinking, I've been meaning to ask for thoughts on the solo-elite-standard-minion progression by level (for the "same" creature). I understand and applaud the "no hard and fast rules" for monster creation/conversion, but I find myself always in need of general (but quantified) guidelines. So I'm wondering, if we start off with the standard monsters, how many levels until it becomes an elite, a solo, or a minion ? The monster I'm finding to be the best example for this at low to mid heroic would be ogres : how iconic for a band of goblins to be headed by a bloated ogre ? Would it be appropriate to make a lvl5 solo ? So it'd go something like: -6 levels, you become a solo, -3 levels you become elite, +5 levels you become a minion ?
#11 slobo777a Jun 20, 2011 3:55:47	I would suggest that you could follow a system like this: For a solo monster, 4E's level = CR For an elite monster, 4E's level = CR + 3 For a standard monster, 4E's level = CR + 5 For a minion monster, 4E's level = CR + 9* This got me thinking, I've been meaning to ask for thoughts on the solo-elite-standard-minion progression by level (for the "same" creature). I understand and applaud the "no hard and fast rules" for monster creation/conversion, but I find myself always in need of general (but quantified) guidelines. So I'm wondering, if we start off with the standard monsters, how many levels until it becomes an elite, a solo, or a minion ? The monster I'm finding to be the best example for this at low to mid heroic would be ogres : how iconic for a band of goblins to be headed by a bloated ogre ? Would it be appropriate to make a lvl5 solo ? So it'd go something like: -6 levels, you become a solo, -3 levels you become elite, +5 levels you become a minion ? Yes, I already do this as a a rule of thumb. For instance, I have re-statted a troll as single dangerous opponents at Lvl 6, in a way that is still in keeping with what IMO the players should expect when their heroic PCs encounter a troll. You need to add more than hitpoints, action points and save, mind. A solo needs additional powers, and often something cool to do with its minor and immediate actions. With the troll, I am going to give it ability to shake off conditions (after all the Paragon level trolls the PCs wouldn't even be able to hit and make their conditions stick in the first place!) Edit: With an Ogre leading a group of Goblins, I might give it leadership powers based on it bullying the little goblins about ("Get in there!" ) This is just a guideline, it can't be applied to everything. Some creatures would simply feel wrong as minions, some would feel wrong as solos.