Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Scottomir Jun 05, 2008 7:30:27	Because the 4e release date falls when I'm leaving town for a trip, I won't be seeing the books for like another week. So I'm hoping I could ask folks who are lucky enough to have them already to weigh in on an issue of great interest to me. I've looked at all the preview materials and read a lot of the pro-and-con debate over 4e, but none of it has left me with a firm sense of whether 4e would work well for low-fantasy/historical settings--or whether the high-power/high-fantasy aspects are inseparably hard-wired into 4e. Is 4e designed in a flexible enough way that it could play well for a semi-realistic, low/no magic setting like a historical (or history-inspired) setting? Here I am thinking of older edition material like THE VIKINGS HANDBOOK or some of the various Arthurian D&D handbooks. By "hard-wired" I mean that a high-power/high-fantasy element is inextricably linked to a more basic mechanical element. An example of this would be if a Fighter-type class gave everybody at Level 10 a power like "Thunderstomp" that shot magic shockbolts at all enemies within 5-foot radius from the fighter's boot. Because that power would be hard-wired (as opposed to optional), my choices would be to simply delete the power and leave Level 10 denuded, invent some new power to replace it, or rule that this particular class "doesn't exist" in my world (basically what I did with the Monk throughout 3.0 and 3.5). I also note that some facets can be more firmly hard-wired than others and may require more or less work to adapt. For example, when my group ran a historically inspired medieval setting in 3e, we had to go through the old Wizard and Priest spell lists to remove most of the high-impact attack spells so that magic would be lower key and revolve mostly around enchantments, illusions, curses, blessings, and healings. But that took a lot of work and left the spell schools/domains quite imbalanced. Could people who have the books already share with me some insights about this question based on the material? Thanks!
#2 bleach Jun 05, 2008 7:39:59	1. You can remove magical items easy enough from the system. 4E has only a Big 3 and the DMG lays out a table stating what levels the system expects the character to have. Thus, if your world is low magic item, you roll those benefits directly into the class when they level. It's also a simple progression basically every 5 levels, characters get a +1 to their attack and defenses and a +1d6 to their attack when they score a critical. 2. The best way to do a low magic campaign would be to actually remove the spellcasters and simply use the ritual casting system. It more closely matches the feel of a low magic setting IMO anyway. 3. Restrict the level of play to say level 10-12. As the DMG, there's nothing wrong with ending the campaign at the heroic tier but once you start moving into the paragon tier, characters are definitely not mundane. Hope this helps.
#3 Tenzhi Jun 05, 2008 7:42:07	It depends somewhat on your expectations of low fantasy. For my part, I could see doing a low fantasy game by simply keeping things restricted to level 10, for instance. Another way to go about it might be to restrict powers by level. For instance, normally you have access to powers with a level equal to your class level - you might change it to 1/2 your class level. You could also lower the number of powers available. And given the uniform class setup, you could make a change like that universal and keep things balanced across the classes. You'd have to be more careful about monsters and such, though.
#4 gratuitous-monkey Jun 05, 2008 7:42:30	Even at high level, there's very little in any of the Martial classes' powers that is overtly "fantastic" or "magical". And since the Warlord is a good Martial Leader, you could probably quite happily play a purely martial campaign (with the Fighter, Ranger, Rogue and Warlord classes only) in a setting where magic is pretty much non-existent. All in all, I'd say that with the introduction of "Second Wind" and healing surges, 4e is probably better placed than any previous edition in terms of being able to play a low-fantasy game.
#5 Xguild Jun 05, 2008 7:43:55	1. You can remove magical items easy enough from the system. 4E has only a Big 3 and the DMG lays out a table stating what levels the system expects the character to have. Thus, if your world is low magic item, you roll those benefits directly into the class when they level. It's also a simple progression basically every 5 levels, characters get a +1 to their attack and defenses and a +1d6 to their attack when they score a critical. 2. The best way to do a low magic campaign would be to actually remove the spellcasters and simply use the ritual casting system. It more closely matches the feel of a low magic setting IMO anyway. 3. Restrict the level of play to say level 10-12. As the DMG, there's nothing wrong with ending the campaign at the heroic tier but once you start moving into the paragon tier, characters are definitely not mundane. Hope this helps. I think the answer your looking for is NO you can't do it easily. With major changes to the very fundemental structure of the whole game you can, but it would be easier to create a whole new system then it will be to disect 4th edition down to a low magic setting. 4th edition is a over the top high fantasy game system. If your looking for something managable for a low power/magic setting TRUE 20 is probobly your best bet. Its designed with things like that in mind.
#6 Tenzhi Jun 05, 2008 7:51:01	I think the answer your looking for is NO you can't do it easily. Seems easy enough to me. Restrict magic items. Restrict powers in a simple universal fashion.
#7 the_fan Jun 05, 2008 8:08:41	I looked through the martial powers to find those that suspend disbelief by the neck until dead, and surprisingly found few up until epic level (barring some stuff from paragon paths). The rogue was the worst offender, regularly turning invisible and flash stepping behind enemies. But that can be handwaved as skill. Sorta. The ranger's worst violation of physics was a power that allows it to do massive amounts of knockback with an arrow. If you can buy that, nothing else should give you trouble. The warlord was able to rearrange the whole fighting field, forcing enemies to move around as he wished. Could be explainable as manipulation and tactics. The fighter was the least offensive to realism. The only thing that strained my credibility was a level 27 power that let him force every enemy in range to move towards him and make an attack against each of them, though that's so dang cinematic I'll forgive it. note that all of these occur above level 25, except the rogue which starts to bamf around level 19. If your game goes up that high, I think realism is taking a backseat anyway.
#8 bleach Jun 05, 2008 8:17:32	I think the answer your looking for is NO you can't do it easily. With major changes to the very fundemental structure of the whole game you can, but it would be easier to create a whole new system then it will be to disect 4th edition down to a low magic setting. 4th edition is a over the top high fantasy game system. If your looking for something managable for a low power/magic setting TRUE 20 is probobly your best bet. Its designed with things like that in mind. Hmm? House rules for low fantasy/historical campaign 1. Roll magic item bonuses into the classes themselves. 2. No arcane power source 3. Stop at around level 11-12. After this is paragon and you're good to go. Two reasons why 4E can work easily enough. 1. The system math is clear. They explicitly laid out what the character is expected to have which means that a DM no longer has to worry about "is this monster from the MM going to be too strong if the PCs don't have magic items?" 2. The ritual system and the restructuring of the spellcaster. By restricting magic so that there is an opportunity cost for stuff like Knock, the skill system isn't obsoleted and fewer monster REQUIRE magic to beat. For example, after level 7, most CR critters require on the part of the melee classes to have some magic item or spell. This is no longer true. I've seen you make comments about 4E based on a reading (the wizard and the fighter are just the same) but as someone who has actually played with both a paladin and a fighter, in 4E, even the melee classes feel distinct.
#9 MrHotter Jun 05, 2008 9:18:17	You can make a party without any arcane or divine power source characters that can do fine. The only 'controller' is the wizard, so you won't have a controller on the team. Even so, the other classes have so many ways to move the enemies or pin them down that I don't think a wizard is needed. A warlord with an inspiration focus can make a pretty good healer for the group. My campaign has no divine power source, so I removed the religion skill and made any religion based rituals use the heal skill instead. It's more of a Medicine Man kind of ability for my game.
#10 tanus Jun 05, 2008 9:23:57	It's easier to do in 4th Edition than it was in 3rd Edition if that's what you're asking.
#11 GreyMorgan Jun 05, 2008 9:41:39	It's easier to do in 4th Edition than it was in 3rd Edition if that's what you're asking. Exactly, neither 3X nor 4E are default low magic settings so both require a bit of work to make a low magic campaign in. That said 4E is much easier to do it in than 3X ever was. Don't let yourself get to distracted by the wizard/warlock/cleric at will powers. While flashy they are not really any more powerful than any other classes at wil abilities. They don't even violate the low magic concept, unless your vision of mages is that they only rarely use any magic at all. If that is the case then simply rule that no one can be a pure spell caster, they can take the mulitclass feat into cleric/warlock/wizard but they can't be a pure one. That combined with rituals should give a nice lower magic feel. Also restrict magic items so they are not that prolific. And restrict the enchant item feat from being available to the players.
#12 Scottomir Jun 06, 2008 7:44:08	I really appreciate these thoughtful responses. Based on this feedback, I'm excited to get 4E. It seems like it is definitely possible to deviate from the high-fantasy default of the game and play a low-magic/semi-realistic pseudo-historical kind of campaign, due to the system's innate flexibility.
#13 4venger Jun 06, 2008 7:50:45	My homebrew world for 4E is very low-magic. It has more of the feel of the old Conan books by R.E. Howard, in that magic is taboo, and used only by the rare, secluded wizard or necromancer. Magical items are very rare, and even the weaker ones are held in high regard. I will allow a wizard PC, but he will have to suffer the paranoia and avoidance of the majority of the population. Could make for some very interesting RP opportunities.