Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 szthesquid Sep 18, 2009 15:15:41	Hey guys! I played 3e and 3.5e for years before 4e came out, and one of my favourite books was Tome of Magic, which introduced the Binder, Shadowcaster, and Truenamer. The Binder was recently introduced as a new Warlock build-- the Vestige Pact-- and an Invoker build bears a strong resemblance to the Truenamer. That leaves the Shadowcaster out in the cold. I felt that the Shadowcaster was different, interesting, and complex enough class to deserve a full writeup, not just an option for an existing class, so I've been working on adapting it to 4e. Of course, this adaptation was done during the summer, before there had been any news of the Shadowfell-based Assassin, so this class may end up overlapping with some official material (which would explain why I haven't heard back from WotC about my submission pitch). My interpretation of the Shadowcaster is called the Shadowmage. It's a short-range controller (secondary defender) that's tough enough to be right out on the front line. The class pack includes: -Two build options: Shadowcaster, focused on stealth and short-range battlefield control; and Shadowcrafter, focused on melee-ranged buffs and control. -Paragon paths: four diverse paragon paths for a range of characters -Epic destinies: two epic destinies -Feats: over twenty feats that span all three tiers, including multiclass options -Magic items: a few new enchantments tailored to the Shadowmage What I'd like from you is feedback. I want to know what's balanced, what isn't, what's good and what's bad. The entire class has gone over several balance revisions over at the Dragon Avenue forums, and I'd like to refine it even further if possible. The complete class pack is available for download in PDF format here. So please check out the Shadowmage, and let me know what you think!
#2 pyromancer999 Sep 18, 2009 17:59:57	I must say, not bad.   That said, however, there are a few things to be said: 1. I don't know what you mean by "learned enchantments". If you mean what I think you mean, you can't learn certain ways to enchant items. You can only make them from the Enchant Item ritual   2. A few of your feats are overpowered. One grants blindsight at PARAGON level.   3. I don't exactly get why you're including paths
#3 oats Sep 18, 2009 18:14:39	More an aesthetic suggestion than anything else: shorten Shadowcrafting to Shadowcraft? Because as a keyword, "shadowcrafting" seems about three letters too long. Same with Shadowcaster, perhaps shorten it to Shadowcast?
#4 szthesquid Sep 19, 2009 12:58:48	I must say, not bad.   That said, however, there are a few things to be said: 1. I don't know what you mean by "learned enchantments". If you mean what I think you mean, you can't learn certain ways to enchant items. You can only make them from the Enchant Item ritual   2. A few of your feats are overpowered. One grants blindsight at PARAGON level.   3. I don't exactly get why you're including paths 1. "Learned enchantments" are solely for the Shadowsmith paragon path. The Shadow Forge path feature allows you to "learn" enchantments, and when you use a Shadowcrafting power, you can use an applicable "learned enchantments" for the crafted weapon. So for example, you study a flaming longsword for a while, and you learn the flaming weapon enchantment, which you can apply to any weapon you create with a shadowcrafting power. 2. Can you be more specific as to which feats you think are overpowered? I thought the blindsight was OK because it's extremely short-range (1 square). 3. I included the paths because they were an essential feature that made the Shadowcaster stand out from other casters in 3rd edition, and I wanted to keep that distinction, while not making it quite as restricting-- in the 3.5e class, EVERY power was part of a path.
#5 szthesquid Sep 19, 2009 12:59:46	More an aesthetic suggestion than anything else: shorten Shadowcrafting to Shadowcraft? Because as a keyword, "shadowcrafting" seems about three letters too long. Same with Shadowcaster, perhaps shorten it to Shadowcast? Good suggestion, that's something I didn't think of. Makes it less of a mouthfull. And lucky for me, Microsoft Word allows me to change all instances of the same word in a document!
#6 Doombringer_of_Hoar Sep 20, 2009 6:20:28	Looks pretty sweet!
#7 pyromancer999 Sep 21, 2009 16:32:41	1.  Not only is the "learned enchantments" system overpowered (essentially an instant magic weapon, at no cost), it undermines the point of the Ritual Caster feat. If you MUST have "learned enchantments, I'd recommend that they essentially get the Ritual Caster feat and the Enchant Item ritual, or they learn how to make ONE OR TWO different types of enchantments, that they can use to enchant items in  a manner similar to the Enchant Item ritual 2. I'm going to have to look back again later to specify some mroe feats, but the blindsight one is more appropriate for epic level. While the range of it may not seem like much (after all it is simply 1), it can help players in ways you couldn't even imagine, such as overcoming the blindness condition.   3. Yes, paths make it sound special. But however, besides making a certain group of powers through feats, they really don't serve any purpose, except to take up space in the power block
#8 RPJesus Sep 21, 2009 21:49:46	3. Yes, paths make it sound special. But however, besides making a certain group of powers through feats, they really don't serve any purpose, except to take up space in the power block Paths are a large part of why the 3.5 Shadowcasters were amazing rather than boring, and I like this adaptation. You are aware that you have to follow path progressions to learn certain powers, right?
#9 szthesquid Sep 21, 2009 23:20:07	1.  Not only is the "learned enchantments" system overpowered (essentially an instant magic weapon, at no cost), it undermines the point of the Ritual Caster feat. If you MUST have "learned enchantments, I'd recommend that they essentially get the Ritual Caster feat and the Enchant Item ritual, or they learn how to make ONE OR TWO different types of enchantments, that they can use to enchant items in  a manner similar to the Enchant Item ritual 2. I'm going to have to look back again later to specify some mroe feats, but the blindsight one is more appropriate for epic level. While the range of it may not seem like much (after all it is simply 1), it can help players in ways you couldn't even imagine, such as overcoming the blindness condition.   3. Yes, paths make it sound special. But however, besides making a certain group of powers through feats, they really don't serve any purpose, except to take up space in the power block 1. I still disagree (although I can admit I'm biased as the creator). Things to consider: a) you have to use a power with the Shadowcraft keyword to create an item. That's a standard action. b) the item only lasts until the beginning of your next turn, so you can't create items and pass them out to your friends. Well you can, but it wouldn't work very well. On the other hand, I'll probably add that only the weapon's creator can use Shadowcraft weapons, just to be on the safe side. 2. I'm not sure of the technical rulings on blindsight + blindness. I can't find any ruling on the interaction between the two. It makes sense that blindsight would cancel out the blindness but I'd like to see a ruling for sure. Either way, since you still rely on normal vision outside the range of the blindsight, you'd still take all the penalties for everything further than 1 square. 3. I don't really see what you're saying about the paths.   But even though I don't agree with some of your points, thanks for making me think about it!
#10 pyromancer999 Sep 24, 2009 14:49:34	I see your point on 2 now. Still, on 1 and 3: 1. The point is that no matter who uses it, nor how long it lasts, the  special weapons would still give you and advantage. Take, for example, these two instances: ex1. You're facing a dungeon full of ice creatures. Rather than having to spend the money to buy a flaming weapon to give you an advantage, you instead just enchant your Shadowcraft weapons with Flaming enchantment. ex2. In the case of Shadowcraft armor, say you encounter a creature that deals mainly one type of damage. All you need to boost the odds is just enchant your Shadowcraft armor with an armor enchantment that granted you resistance against that type.  In addition, you haven't specified the levels of the enchantments, so a level 3 shadowcraft power could be enchanted with an enchantment as a level 30 weapon. Also, if they must be able to enchant spontaneuosly, I'd recommend that you limit it to 1-2 times a day per tier. 3. The point behind paths in 3.5e, although they were cool, you had to get first the first mystery in a path, then the second, and then the third. This was okay then, because you could get a level 1 power at 3rd level. But in 4e, you can't do that. Thus, the paths would restrict their power choices.   You get what I mean?
#11 szthesquid Sep 24, 2009 18:19:25	I see your point on 2 now. Still, on 1 and 3: 1. The point is that no matter who uses it, nor how long it lasts, the  special weapons would still give you and advantage. Take, for example, these two instances: ex1. You're facing a dungeon full of ice creatures. Rather than having to spend the money to buy a flaming weapon to give you an advantage, you instead just enchant your Shadowcraft weapons with Flaming enchantment. ex2. In the case of Shadowcraft armor, say you encounter a creature that deals mainly one type of damage. All you need to boost the odds is just enchant your Shadowcraft armor with an armor enchantment that granted you resistance against that type.  In addition, you haven't specified the levels of the enchantments, so a level 3 shadowcraft power could be enchanted with an enchantment as a level 30 weapon. Also, if they must be able to enchant spontaneuosly, I'd recommend that you limit it to 1-2 times a day per tier. 3. The point behind paths in 3.5e, although they were cool, you had to get first the first mystery in a path, then the second, and then the third. This was okay then, because you could get a level 1 power at 3rd level. But in 4e, you can't do that. Thus, the paths would restrict their power choices.   You get what I mean? 1. The Shadowcraft keyword specifies that you can create a weapon with an enhancement bonus of a level equal to or lower than yours. So a level 3 character can make only a +1 weapon, not a +6 weapon. Also, for the Shadow Forge path feature, you have to actually have a weapon with the desired enchantment in your possession long enough to study and learn the enchantment. So you can't make a flaming sword unless you've had the opportunity to learn the flaming weapon enchantment. Same goes for armour. You don't have free reign of what enchantments you can use. 3. You still have to take the path powers to get later ones. You can't take the second power in a path without taking the first, but you don't have to take the second if you don't want to. At every level I made sure that there's one Shadowcraft power and at least one non-path power, so at every level you have at least two options if you don't want to go into a path. Yes, the power choice is restricted a little bit; but there are other classes that do this as well in other ways. For example, Warlocks have two primary attributes, so it's not optimal to take a Con-based power as a Cha-based build; and as a Ranger, depending on what you're carrying with you, you might not have the right weapons to use certain powers. So yes, the paths are a bit limiting, but other classes have similar restrictions. They're just not as blatant as, "You can't take this power if you don't have this power".
#12 pyromancer999 Sep 26, 2009 13:29:52	1. The examples used were assuming that the example character had learned such enchantments. Good to know that there's a limit on the enhancement bonus, though. However, the enchantments can pretty much be used at-will(at least, that's what I've taken away from this).  Thus, why pay for one Flaming weapon, when you can simply learn it, then apply it to a variety of weapons created through shadowcraft powers.   3. No, other classes are not as restrictive on powers as this one is. Sure, it can seem that way, with builds and whatnot, but there's a good chance that a character will not uniformly follow any one build, even in the case of Warlocks, which you cited. While many powers can gain additional effect based upon pact, that doesn't mean that a Fey Warlock has to choose all (Fey) Warlock powers. The PHB even encourages that the player should take at least a few powers from other pacts.
#13 szthesquid Sep 29, 2009 23:19:53	1. The examples used were assuming that the example character had learned such enchantments. Good to know that there's a limit on the enhancement bonus, though. However, the enchantments can pretty much be used at-will(at least, that's what I've taken away from this).  Thus, why pay for one Flaming weapon, when you can simply learn it, then apply it to a variety of weapons created through shadowcraft powers.   3. No, other classes are not as restrictive on powers as this one is. Sure, it can seem that way, with builds and whatnot, but there's a good chance that a character will not uniformly follow any one build, even in the case of Warlocks, which you cited. While many powers can gain additional effect based upon pact, that doesn't mean that a Fey Warlock has to choose all (Fey) Warlock powers. The PHB even encourages that the player should take at least a few powers from other pacts. 1. Well, the point of the paragon path is to add options and extend already existing ones; that's what I see happening here. Yes, it does reduce the value of magic items once you've learned their enchantments, but you could argue that other paragon paths do the same. For example, a Scion of Arkhosia doesn't need a flying carpet anymore. And while that is a pretty specific example, making stuff is what the Shadowsmith is all about (and the only thing it does). 3. Point taken, but even still, if you start down a path, you don't have to finish it. Besides, a path is only 3 levels worth of powers, so it's not like you're locked into a build for the rest of the game.
#14 pyromancer999 Oct 01, 2009 17:47:31	.......I don't think you're quite getting me. Also, on the Shadowsmith thing, you may want to check out the Shadowblade Paragon Path for the Assasain class on D&D Insider.   In one last attempt to get through to you, I will try to clarify my points one last time: 1. You do have a valid point. A Scion of Arkhosia would have no use for flying items. However, with this path you could duplicate multiple enchantments with this ability. 3. You would essentially be dictating what powers the player could take for those 3 levels.
#15 RPJesus Oct 04, 2009 20:37:25	3. You would essentially be dictating what powers the player could take for those 3 levels. Only if they wanted the third path power.
#16 pyromancer999 Oct 06, 2009 17:32:21	Not true. He has only one power of each level that isn't a Path power. Thus, it would require some major trickery to be able to make a feasible Shadowmage
#17 RPJesus Oct 07, 2009 11:28:46	Not true. He has only one power of each level that isn't a Path power. Thus, it would require some major trickery to be able to make a feasible Shadowmage I suppose, but that's kind of what I liked about 3.5 shadowcasters. I actually managed to use bend perspective for amazingness, and I only knew it because I wanted to learn killing shadows.
#18 tiamatthedragongod Oct 08, 2009 7:16:13	1) I think the best way to fix it would be to change it to: "You can only store in memory X number of enchantments at a time. You choose which enchantment to replace when learning a new one." I would make X = 3, I think that's a nice round number and makes it fairly balanced.
#19 szthesquid Oct 18, 2009 0:34:47	1) I think the best way to fix it would be to change it to: "You can only store in memory X number of enchantments at a time. You choose which enchantment to replace when learning a new one." I would make X = 3, I think that's a nice round number and makes it fairly balanced. I wouldn't limit it to a fixed number; if anything, it'd be maybe your Intelligence modifier.   Of course, fixing it implies it's broken, and I'm  not convinced that's the case.