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4E Design Harder for Anyone Else?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
epochgames
Jun 11, 2008 0:36:16 Perhaps it's just me and a few of my friends, but we were talking about all the things we had come up with and designed/redesigned for 3.x and all came to conclusion that this newest ruleset, while positive in many ways, at least seems much harder to design for. For those of us without eidetic memory, remembering the different class abilities, feats, etc. and keeping every balanced without trampling over what has come before just seems harder. For example, a full write-up of a new class or prestige class would take well under and hour, perhaps up to an hour with some awesome fluff. Now, none of us has completed a full class, the closest being someone through the level three abilities at the end of 2 hours. It just seems....harder. I'm sure things will catch on with us, but is anyone else having this problem? Any advice out there on how to overcome it? Organizational tips, workarounds, etc.?
#2
Pangur
Jun 11, 2008 0:51:05 3E classes had a fixed list of abilities for each level (and often just one per level). 4E classes have a big list of powers any given character is only going to take a small part of in its entire career. Obviously the latter is more work to create, there are more powers to do than there used to be class abilities. I can't see any way around that (other than making variants of existing powers, or those powers themselves, available to the new class. But what would be the point of the new class then?).
#3
Saric
Jun 11, 2008 1:02:10 I just actually completed a class recently, and from the experience I got to get a little feel for the system. The main problem really isn't tossing out powers like its tomorrow. Its making sure its balanced in relative power to other powers of the other classes in your same role.

You also have to make sure it is not entirely redundant, and doesn't step on the shoes of another class entirely. Making a bard with a level 23 power that does 7 [w] + Dexterity modifier damage, is probably not the wisest idea.

Making multiple paths was also a moderate challenge, but it helps guide the theme behind the powers you make for the higher levels. Considering how most of the basic roles are already covered, most new classes will end up being hybrids of sorts.
#4
epochgames
Jun 11, 2008 1:10:11 Drat! I'll let the guy know he needs to redo his Bard then.

Honestly, though, it seems like you're saying the same thing I'm seeing. I just don't know if any of you have some tips and tricks for getting the process to run a bit smoother. Somehow, standing on my head while drinking a glass of water, and juggling razors with my toes isn't working,
#5
Saric
Jun 11, 2008 1:22:44
Drat! I'll let the guy know he needs to redo his Bard then.

Honestly, though, it seems like you're saying the same thing I'm seeing. I just don't know if any of you have some tips and tricks for getting the process to run a bit smoother. Somehow, standing on my head while drinking a glass of water, and juggling razors with my toes isn't working,

You can check out my Bard for the time being. A thing I did was use the other two class powers of the same level as a guideline. In addition, I used many of the old powers from 3.5 with 4th edition flavor. But probably the best idea was to use the table in the dmg page 42 for a gauge of how much damage the powers should be doing. Hope that helps!
#6
Siberys
Jun 11, 2008 2:19:17 Races? Feats? Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies? Individual powers? Those can be done very quickly - although races takes the longest as it often entails lots of fluff, some feats, and a power.

Classes is the only really complicated part, and that's because of the huge list of powers each one needs. The basic class framework takes about as much time to craft as a PP or ED. Crafting powers, though, is like crafting an entirely new spell-list solely for the class.
#7
Steveman
Jun 11, 2008 12:28:28 IMO

Feats, Powers and Magic Items are the easiest, as they can be dropped in and only really need to be balanced against their level/tier.

Monsters are easy-peasy. The only reason why they are harder than feats/powers/items is because they have powers of their own plus additional math and some fluff... and advanced versions.

Races a la the MM are simple as well, but once you give full support it gets a little harder, but thats a race -and- 4-5 feats. Not hard, just a lot more work.

Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies are pretty easy as they are really just a pile of powers lumped together via a unifying theme.

Classes are the toughest of them all, not because any component of them is hard, but because its A LOT of work, and as stated above its a whole lot more about keeping a role-based balance than anything else.
#8
ceiling90
Jun 12, 2008 21:05:38 Like, so far I've had no problems with creating new races or converting them... I've made so far one paragon path... that wasn't really that difficult... though of course I really gotta sure they're balanced... but yeah, the classes are daunting. It really helps if you have a completely set of unique powers and uses before you start, like if you take an idea for a class, I think it's best to make sure it couldn't fit as a paragon path, before ever starting the class. And after a day's work so far... I've only come up with the class skeleton and the beginning at will powers...
#9
epochgames
Jun 13, 2008 11:28:24 Seems you're all on the same page as me. Feat,s races, etc. That's easy. It's those darn classes that just seem to take forever. I finally completed two, but totally goofed on balance when going back through for the re-read. Ah well, back to the drawing board.
#10
generalhenry
Jun 13, 2008 11:44:46 back when 3.0 was first released even the pros didn't know how to write a good prestige class, check the early splat.

We're all new at this, we'll get better with time.
#11
aka_bait
Jun 13, 2008 13:59:36 I've found traps to be a pain.
#12
epochgames
Jun 14, 2008 2:39:14
I've found traps to be a pain.

I haven't even tried those yet, but from what I've seen overall adventure/encounter design seems to be a lot easier than previous editions.
#13
mplindustries
Jun 14, 2008 3:54:26 I honestly find it so much easier to make balanced classes in 4e. "Balanced" is the key term there. Sure, you could make classes in 3.5 pretty quickly, but if you didn't spend time considering lots of angles, it would very easily become problematic.

I mean, yeah, you could take a base class and alter it a little, thats what Unearthed Arcana taught us, but thats not the same as making a totally new class.

I think in 4th its cake. You do need to reference other power sets briefly at times ("how many [w] do 7th level striker powers usually get?" or "whats the lowest level stunning seems to be available?" etc.), but so much is the same its not terribly hard.

I don't know, give me a class concept and I can throw out a features/at-wills within a few minutes of considering it. The later powers are harder, but not nearly as bad as balancing something in 3.5 over 20 levels when you have to consider multi-class interaction, spell effects, gear, etc.

Standardization = good for customization.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 epochgames Jun 11, 2008 0:36:16	Perhaps it's just me and a few of my friends, but we were talking about all the things we had come up with and designed/redesigned for 3.x and all came to conclusion that this newest ruleset, while positive in many ways, at least seems much harder to design for. For those of us without eidetic memory, remembering the different class abilities, feats, etc. and keeping every balanced without trampling over what has come before just seems harder. For example, a full write-up of a new class or prestige class would take well under and hour, perhaps up to an hour with some awesome fluff. Now, none of us has completed a full class, the closest being someone through the level three abilities at the end of 2 hours. It just seems....harder. I'm sure things will catch on with us, but is anyone else having this problem? Any advice out there on how to overcome it? Organizational tips, workarounds, etc.?
#2 Pangur Jun 11, 2008 0:51:05	3E classes had a fixed list of abilities for each level (and often just one per level). 4E classes have a big list of powers any given character is only going to take a small part of in its entire career. Obviously the latter is more work to create, there are more powers to do than there used to be class abilities. I can't see any way around that (other than making variants of existing powers, or those powers themselves, available to the new class. But what would be the point of the new class then?).
#3 Saric Jun 11, 2008 1:02:10	I just actually completed a class recently, and from the experience I got to get a little feel for the system. The main problem really isn't tossing out powers like its tomorrow. Its making sure its balanced in relative power to other powers of the other classes in your same role. You also have to make sure it is not entirely redundant, and doesn't step on the shoes of another class entirely. Making a bard with a level 23 power that does 7 [w] + Dexterity modifier damage, is probably not the wisest idea. Making multiple paths was also a moderate challenge, but it helps guide the theme behind the powers you make for the higher levels. Considering how most of the basic roles are already covered, most new classes will end up being hybrids of sorts.
#4 epochgames Jun 11, 2008 1:10:11	Drat! I'll let the guy know he needs to redo his Bard then. Honestly, though, it seems like you're saying the same thing I'm seeing. I just don't know if any of you have some tips and tricks for getting the process to run a bit smoother. Somehow, standing on my head while drinking a glass of water, and juggling razors with my toes isn't working,
#5 Saric Jun 11, 2008 1:22:44	Drat! I'll let the guy know he needs to redo his Bard then. Honestly, though, it seems like you're saying the same thing I'm seeing. I just don't know if any of you have some tips and tricks for getting the process to run a bit smoother. Somehow, standing on my head while drinking a glass of water, and juggling razors with my toes isn't working, You can check out my Bard for the time being. A thing I did was use the other two class powers of the same level as a guideline. In addition, I used many of the old powers from 3.5 with 4th edition flavor. But probably the best idea was to use the table in the dmg page 42 for a gauge of how much damage the powers should be doing. Hope that helps!
#6 Siberys Jun 11, 2008 2:19:17	Races? Feats? Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies? Individual powers? Those can be done very quickly - although races takes the longest as it often entails lots of fluff, some feats, and a power. Classes is the only really complicated part, and that's because of the huge list of powers each one needs. The basic class framework takes about as much time to craft as a PP or ED. Crafting powers, though, is like crafting an entirely new spell-list solely for the class.
#7 Steveman Jun 11, 2008 12:28:28	IMO Feats, Powers and Magic Items are the easiest, as they can be dropped in and only really need to be balanced against their level/tier. Monsters are easy-peasy. The only reason why they are harder than feats/powers/items is because they have powers of their own plus additional math and some fluff... and advanced versions. Races a la the MM are simple as well, but once you give full support it gets a little harder, but thats a race -and- 4-5 feats. Not hard, just a lot more work. Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies are pretty easy as they are really just a pile of powers lumped together via a unifying theme. Classes are the toughest of them all, not because any component of them is hard, but because its A LOT of work, and as stated above its a whole lot more about keeping a role-based balance than anything else.
#8 ceiling90 Jun 12, 2008 21:05:38	Like, so far I've had no problems with creating new races or converting them... I've made so far one paragon path... that wasn't really that difficult... though of course I really gotta sure they're balanced... but yeah, the classes are daunting. It really helps if you have a completely set of unique powers and uses before you start, like if you take an idea for a class, I think it's best to make sure it couldn't fit as a paragon path, before ever starting the class. And after a day's work so far... I've only come up with the class skeleton and the beginning at will powers...
#9 epochgames Jun 13, 2008 11:28:24	Seems you're all on the same page as me. Feat,s races, etc. That's easy. It's those darn classes that just seem to take forever. I finally completed two, but totally goofed on balance when going back through for the re-read. Ah well, back to the drawing board.
#10 generalhenry Jun 13, 2008 11:44:46	back when 3.0 was first released even the pros didn't know how to write a good prestige class, check the early splat. We're all new at this, we'll get better with time.
#11 aka_bait Jun 13, 2008 13:59:36	I've found traps to be a pain.
#12 epochgames Jun 14, 2008 2:39:14	I've found traps to be a pain. I haven't even tried those yet, but from what I've seen overall adventure/encounter design seems to be a lot easier than previous editions.
#13 mplindustries Jun 14, 2008 3:54:26	I honestly find it so much easier to make balanced classes in 4e. "Balanced" is the key term there. Sure, you could make classes in 3.5 pretty quickly, but if you didn't spend time considering lots of angles, it would very easily become problematic. I mean, yeah, you could take a base class and alter it a little, thats what Unearthed Arcana taught us, but thats not the same as making a totally new class. I think in 4th its cake. You do need to reference other power sets briefly at times ("how many [w] do 7th level striker powers usually get?" or "whats the lowest level stunning seems to be available?" etc.), but so much is the same its not terribly hard. I don't know, give me a class concept and I can throw out a features/at-wills within a few minutes of considering it. The later powers are harder, but not nearly as bad as balancing something in 3.5 over 20 levels when you have to consider multi-class interaction, spell effects, gear, etc. Standardization = good for customization.