4e Dragon Shaman P.E.A.C.H. me - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

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#1 jusmhar Jun 26, 2010 20:19:22	I have recently fallen in love with the Dragon Shaman class in 3.5 and i don't feel like waiting for Wizards to bring them to 4e. So I've been working on a 4e variation over the past... hour. I mainly just have the basics for the build and the class features done. One of the things i'm not quiet sure of is the role. My friend thinks it would be a leader because of the draconic auras {they'll be utilities in here} where as i think they'd be a defender cause my 3.5 dragon shaman is quiet the meat-shield. Anyways, here it is. Edit: 7/1 Class Traits Role: Leader. After years of devotion to the dragons, you use your skills to make both you and your allies harder, better, faster, and stronger. Power Source: Primal. You call upon the primal force of the dragons to power your attacks while in battle. Key Abilities: Constitution, Charisma, Intelligence Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, Leather, Hide, light shields Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, Hammers, Maces Implements: Rods, Totems Bonus to Defenses: +1 Fortitude, +1 Will Hit Points at 1st level: 10 + Constitution Score Hit Points per Level Gained: 5 Healing Surges per Day: 6 + Constitution Modifier Trained Skills: Nature. From the class skills list below, choose four more trained skills at first level Acrobatics (Dex) Athletics (Str), Bluff (Cha), Endurance (Con), Heal (wis), Intimidate (Cha), Perception (Wis), Stealth (Dex) Class Traits: Draconic Aura, Healing Aura, Ritual Casting Dragon Shaman Builds Show Cataclysmic Dragon Shaman Draconic Aura: Allies receive a +2 power bonus to AC against Opportunity Attacks Suggested Feat: Sickening Breath Suggested At-will Powers: Lead the Charge, Tail Slap Suggested Encounter Power: Roar of the Dragon Suggested Daily Power: Breath of Slumbers Chromatic Dragon Build Draconic Aura: Allies receive a +2 power bonus to damage rolls Suggested Feat: Suggested At-Will Powers: Lead the Charge, Wing Slam Suggested Encounter Power: Suggested Daily Power: Vengeance of a Thousand Wounds Metallic Dragon Build Draconic Aura: Allies receive a +2 power bonus to saving throws Suggested Feat: Increase Dragon Aura Suggested At-Will Powers: Dragon's Mark, Prepare for Battle Suggested Encounter Power: Large and In Charge Suggested Daily Power
#2 Bera Jun 27, 2010 5:06:29	First off, you might need to pick a role before you go any further. If the defining characteristic of the Dragon Shaman is the Aura and providing buffs to his allies, I'd go with leader. Just makes more sense than giving him a marking mechanic to be a defender. A melee leader, but a leader nonetheless. Second, I think a Str/Cha might be more appropriate than int. So Str/Cha or Str/Con. Dunno how you want to turn those into a couple distinct build options. Third, the weapon/implement proficiencies are a bit odd. Do they need implements at all? Giving rods and all the weapons they're proficient in seems odd, and overpowered unless the dragon shaman is going to be doing lots of ranged blasts, when you seemed to want him to be a melee guy. Fourth, Totem Dragon and Draconic adaptation can be the same class feature. Its a lot of fluff, but no sense listing the dragon type choices twice if you really only choose once. Furthermore, for Draconic Adaptation it might be simpler to give out things like icewalk or a swim speed equal to your speed, rather than bonuses to skill checks when possible. You might consider ditching these specific options and going toward draconic archetypes instead, such as the dragon as king, dragon as beast, dragon as hoarder... Fifth, I'd like to see Touch of Vitality turned into the Healing Word-type power, possibly with the option of ditching the extra healing for saving throws, or giving off a different type of effect depending on the aura that is up, like the runepriest. Lastly, the dragon breath and scales could be ditched. Breath as an encounter power seems to step on the toes of the Dragonborn's power, and scales just seem like unnecessary scailing defense. Consider wrapping the dragon breath into a number of encounter powers, and put the dragon auras into the daily powers. Interesting take though. Have you looked for other adaptations yet: www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=79...
#3 mysticbelmont Jun 27, 2010 11:52:43	You could roll all of the class features into a single choice, similar to the sorceror.
#4 urpriest Jun 27, 2010 15:56:12	I'm not sure Arcane is really appropriate. I'd rather go with Elemental, or something non-WotC like Dragon. Synergy problems given current rules, but more appropriate.
#5 jusmhar Jun 27, 2010 19:06:54	it's power source was something else i was debatable with. Arcane or Primal. both were from the same reason. Primal was because they'd be getting their power from the primal forces that are dragons, and arcane because they were attempting to mimic the dragons magical powers.
#6 Xanamir Jun 28, 2010 11:58:12	One thing that I've found when I've tried to design classes that I want to play for myself is that it becomes VERY hard to look at its power level objectively, which becomes a problem when you start designing powers from scratch. I'm not saying there's anything overpowered here, just that it's something to consider. I would suggest that if you want to build a dragon shaman (I played one too in 3.5, they're sweet) I would first make a list of all of the features you want to include throughout your build and then first look at which powers from other classes would be most appropriate. For example, you could match the Dragon Scales flat armor bonus with the Sorcerer's Scales of the Dragon power (+2 to AC when first bloodied for the rest of the encounter.) Touch of Vitality can be the Paladin's Lay on Hands, except change out the Wisdom modifier for one of the dragon shaman's modifiers (charisma or constitution, maybe.) In my opinion, primal would be a good power source to choose from, since the totem dragon feels very, very primal already. You're just choosing to worship a different type of totem spirit than the normal druid. Also, it would lend a bit of flavor to the class, since there really isn't a strong "primal dragon" class already, while arcane feels a bit of overlap thematically with sorcerer. You'll have to be careful with using the auras as utilities; I'd have to see some examples of what you have in mind, since they can affect the entire power and quickly get out of control if not balanced. There's a lot more I could say on the topic, but for now, let me simply state that I think it's a cool idea and I wish you luck in your attempt.
#7 jusmhar Jun 28, 2010 12:48:58	I'm about to do update it. I switched out int for cha and tweaked out aura's worked as well as his healing encounter. Touch of vitality's gone and i replaced it with a healing aura. You'll see how it works when i post the update. I also have a couple feats but they're not much. Also, i'm tweaking the dragon breath so hopefully it's it's own breath weapon without being too much like the dragonborn's breath weapon.
#8 rampant Jun 28, 2010 15:13:20	Question: Wouldn't it be simpler to take the existing Shaman class and intro Dragon SHaman as a new build? That way you only have to come up with class features based on the regular shaman and a handful of powers. If no then May I suggest that instead of making a different dragon shaman for each individual dragon strain you instead make a build for each major clan: chromatic, metallic, and catastrophic.
#9 urpriest Jun 28, 2010 15:15:53	Question: Wouldn't it be simpler to take the existing Shaman class and intro Dragon SHaman as a new build? Aside from the shared name, 3.5 Dragon Shamans had nothing to do with traditional Shamans of any of the other 3.5 types.
#10 rampant Jun 28, 2010 15:18:11	No it didn't but this 4e version is already a primal leader so I thought the idea was worth mentioning.
#11 Xanamir Jun 28, 2010 16:28:31	From what I've seen of shaman in 4e, they play very, very differently with the way their spirit companion works. I suppose one could add a bunch of draconic flavor by making it a "spirit dragon" (which would actually be pretty cool). Dragon shaman from 3e, however, plays more like a warlord; a lead-from-the-front type, melee combatant that supports his allies. Actually, a dragonborn warlord would probably play pretty much like a dragon shaman, now that I think about it. But converting classes is always fun, so I'm curious to see what jusmhar comes up with.
#12 jusmhar Jun 28, 2010 18:29:35	@ rampant - Arcana and divine have two leaders. Arcana has the Bard and Artificer classes while Divine has the Cleric and Runepriest classes. So it's really not out there for primal to have two leaders as well. @ Xanamir - I'm curious to see what i come up with too. I got some more feats and the bases for the auras down. of coarse the level they are determines what they do to an extent. Also, i'm thinking of the auras, save healing aura, are treated as zones for rules purposes and are sustained as a minor. Therfore, some of the smaller auras like power, presense, and sense would be at the lower levels but something as powerful as energy shield would be way later on {i'm thinking 2d6 + con mod damage as an immediate reaction when hit >3}
#13 rampant Jun 28, 2010 19:08:47	Here's a thought, what if the attack powers take the form of breath weapon attacks and allies in the area get a boost instead of taking damage.
#14 jusmhar Jun 28, 2010 20:06:44	like the dragonborn feat that does the same thing? The breath weapon is the big thing i wanna keep and am unsure how to do it. I dunno if it'll be a class feature, a feat into class feature, or just normal attacks.
#15 rampant Jun 28, 2010 23:24:11	Ok I know the individual dragon type totem was a big deal in the 3e version but just stay with me for a bit here. Ditch it. Instead create builds based on categories of dragon types, such as metallic/chromatic/catastrophic. Then the breath weapon becomes many of the various attack powers, for instance you might choose between a level one encounter power that's a close blast of fire, or another that's a ranged attack that arcs to a secondary target or more. Instead of trying to make it a class feature you just base most of the attack powers around it. Then whenever your area attacks would hit an ally they get a boost depending on the power. Example: A close blast 3 fire attack deals moderate damage to each enemy caught in the blast. However each ally in the area affected is not only undamaged but the flames linger about them burning anything foolish enough to strike at them until your next turn. Another Example: A ranged 10 electric attack that hits one enemy and any enemy within x squares of the first guy. If there's an ally within x squares you may have that ally mark the primary (and possibly secondary targets) gain +y on attack and/or damage against them, and shock them a little if they attack anyone not marking them, or move away from the ally. (this one would probably be harder to balance)
#16 jusmhar Jun 28, 2010 23:59:58	Sounds interesting. I know my friends and I were talking about that with the breath weapons. Mainly if there should just be a default breath weapon at lv. 1, 13, and whatever lv replaces a lv. 13 encounter if any {i dunno, my current 4e campaign's my first taste of D&D and they're only at lv. 11} and then a class features lets them feat into breath weapon feats as if they had the dragonborn prereq, or if i should give them different breath weapons through the leveling process, each one doing something different, like the metabreath feats in 3.5's draconomicon.
#17 rampant Jun 29, 2010 0:31:49	No see I'm talking about the encounter, and probably the daily attack powers being primarily breath weapon type abilities. You're looking at a leader who is heavily subbed into controller. I'd advise 2-3 breath weapon based powers per level of attack powers. MEta-breath techniques would be good as feats or utility powers. Considering The healing power the old D-shaman had you should really consider handing out the ritual caster feat as a class feature as well.
#18 jusmhar Jun 29, 2010 1:02:12	kinda makes me feel i should have a breath keyword instead of the dragon devouter class feature {it's the feature i was talking about}. give dragon shaman's their own feats... that or allow dragonborn have them too. it's kinda a big deal because if this is good enough for my campaign i gotta look out for the dragonborn who's in it already.
#19 rampant Jun 29, 2010 1:16:58	Well that's the brilliance of just making the powers that, you don't need a new keyword, or a bunch of feats, they're powers, they just do stuff. D-born already have plenty of meta-breath options.
#20 Bera Jun 29, 2010 3:58:52	I'd avoid making a class that automatically qualifies for racial feats, or letting a race automatically qualify for class feats. That's why I think a close-combat leader with a number of close-blast attacks and daily attacks with auras might be really cool. Its also a bit different than any of the other leader options out there, making it worthwhile as a distinct class, rather than just a Sorcerer or Ardent build. They'd need to balance weapons and implements if they have a lot of melee and close-blast attacks though. You could go ki focus, but maybe they could choose one weapon group, like Light/heavy blades, spears or hammers, to be useable as implements. It could even depend on the build as to which weapons group(s?) they used, in addition to totems.
#21 jusmhar Jun 29, 2010 9:53:38	so you're saying different breath weapons is the way to go for these powers? as for the implements and such and weapon proficiencies, i was trying hard to make it close to the 3.5 version and i really that's kind dumb now. Also, what are ki focus? no one in my party uses them so i haven't really bothered to look up the rules on them.
#22 rampant Jun 29, 2010 10:15:15	Essentially they're the best implement ever. They don't take up a body slot, plus their enchantment and properties can be applied to any weapon you wield as well as to implement powers. However They're not really thematically appropriate for this class, or at least I don't think so. Rods, staves, and totems spring to mind as being the proper choices for this class, considering how many mace wielding D-shaman I recall it seems to fit.
#23 jusmhar Jun 29, 2010 11:42:54	yeah, i'm also debating military melee as well... maybe adding just hammers to weapon proficiencies. Also, that suggestion you made about the builds instead of totem dragons, I'm seriously looking into it now. At first i wasn't, because I didn't know how to make the different builds... different. Well now I do. Chromatic Dragon Shaman's lean more towards striker as a secondary role. Metallic Dragon Shaman's are either just a straight up leader, or may lean more on a defender secondary role. Cataclysmic Dragon Shaman's lean towards Controller secondary role. Also, the dragon totem will be a feat they can take. It gives a +2 to attack and damage rolls with attacks that share a keyword with your totem dragon.
#24 jusmhar Jun 29, 2010 18:23:38	Bugger. Forgot to post the update before work. Oh well, i'll be home in about an hour and i'll post it then. I'm pretty much done with the build of the class itself. Just wanna iron out the builds a little and i should be able to start getting serious with the different attacks. Make the Auras in block formate and i even got a couple different breath weapons in there too, most based off the metabreath feats from the draconomicon like clinging breath, lingering breath, shape breath, etc.
#25 rampant Jun 29, 2010 18:32:18	Shape would probably function better as a utility to alter a power's area of effect rather than an attack all its own.
#26 jusmhar Jun 29, 2010 18:57:22	yeah, really all it is is an attack that can be, i think, either a burst 3 or a ranged 4 attack. hell, i may just make it a feat again. Shape Breath Prereq: Dragon Shaman Attacks with Breath in it's name can be treated as a burst 3 or a range 4 attack Mastered Shape Breath Prereq: Dragon Shaman, level 11, Shape Breath feat Attacks with breath in it's name can be treated as a burst 5 or range 6 attack maybe something to that degree?
#27 jusmhar Jun 29, 2010 19:42:43	all updated :3 I wish I had a program to make a pdf file so i can make it look more proffessional.
#28 rampant Jun 29, 2010 21:21:09	Look you're trying too hard dude. The aura powers can be just that, powers. If you must have a constant aura give them something like the warlord, allies within X squares get a minor bonus. Maybe based on your chosen tribe of dragons? Chromatic: ??? Metallic: A bonus on saves? Catastrophic: A bonus on defenses against area attacks?
#29 jusmhar Jun 29, 2010 21:33:49	well the auras are just the basic build, what i want and the level I'll most likely put them in. and yeah, auras can be sustained as a minor, but can be feated later to be sustained as a free action. And Chromatic, Metallic, and Catastrophic are going to be builds.
#30 mysticbelmont Jun 29, 2010 22:46:27	Essentially they're the best implement ever. They don't take up a body slot, plus their enchantment and properties can be applied to any weapon you wield as well as to implement powers. However They're not really thematically appropriate for this class, or at least I don't think so. Rods, staves, and totems spring to mind as being the proper choices for this class, considering how many mace wielding D-shaman I recall it seems to fit. I like the idea of using ki-focus, but wouldn't that make them more psychic than primal, which is what the TC is shooting for. Anyways, if the TC is looking for attack powers and the such, there are plenty of books that the TC can look in. Not to mention, all of the dragon breaths that can be featured. Being able to replicate the cone of sleep as a daily sleep spell would be awesome.
#31 jusmhar Jun 29, 2010 22:54:04	here's the at-wills, working on the lv. 1 encounters right now Dragon's Mark - Dragon Shaman Attack 1 You strike your enemy and weaken him, making him the perfect target for your allies At-will * Primal, Weapon Standard Action Melee Target: One creature Attack: Constitution vs. AC Hit: 1[W] + Constitution Modifier damage and the next ally to attack the target gets a bonus to attack rolls equal to your intelligence modifier. If no one attacks the target by your next turn, the bonus is lost. Increase to 2[W] + Constitution modifier at 21st level Lead the Charge - Dragon Shaman Attack 1 A Dragon Shaman is many things, but he must never forget the thing he was meant to do: Fight. At-will * Primal, Weapon Standard Action Melee Special: Before the attack, you can shift up to 2 squares Target: One creature Attack: Constitution vs. AC Hit: 1[W] + Constitution Modifier damage and allies adjacent to you before the shift can shift 1 square and receive a +2 bonus on their next attack roll. Increase to 2[W] + Constitution Modifer at 21st level Tail Slap - Dragon Shaman Attack 1 Though you may or may not have a tail as mighty as the dragon, you primal connection allows you to do just fine. At-will * Primal Standard Action Melee Target: One creature Attack: Constitution vs. Fortitude Hit: Constitution modifier damage and the target becomes stunned. If target is already stunned, it becomes knocked prone as well. Wing Smash - Dragon Shaman Attack 1 Primal Wings seem to grow out of your back and strikes out at two enemies, disappearing as quickly as they appeared At-will * Primal Standard Action Melee Target: One or two creatures Attack: Constitution vs. AC Hit: 1d6 + constitution modifier damage Increase to 2d6 + constitution modifier at 21st level Prepare for Battle - Dragon Shaman Attack 1 With enemies all around you, the power behind your aura surges, filling your allies with a new found vigor. At-Will * Primal, Aura Standard Action Aura 3 Target: Allies in Aura Effect: Until the end of your next turn, allies within the aura gain temporary hit points equal to your charisma modifier.
#32 rampant Jun 29, 2010 23:02:47	Dude Auras are for lasting effects, the best way to grant them is via dailies, and class features. Tail slap may be over powered. You don't need to make a class feature that just gives them a blank aura, is what I was getting at. Just give them a basic aura ability like what the warlord gives.
#33 jusmhar Jun 29, 2010 23:13:04	ok... with auras. I assume you mean like the boost to inish that warlords give. So how about this Draconic Aura Allies within 3 squares of you can be affected by abilities you have with the aura keyword. Effects granted by the Auras end when the allies leave the area affected by the aura, or you are knocked unconscious. better? Also, for tail slap. Maybe no damage instead would be better?
#34 mysticbelmont Jun 29, 2010 23:25:48	Now that I think about it, maybe eliminating the knocked prone part of tail slap.
#35 jusmhar Jun 29, 2010 23:32:14	awwww.... but the knocked prone is awesome... then again it's an lv. 1 at-will... hrm... maybe a later on encounter could be Tail Slam and knocks prone...
#36 rampant Jun 29, 2010 23:48:21	i was referring to the stunned aspect actually. Look dude you don't have to make up all this crap about powers with the aura keyword. Just give them auras as part of their powers. You're making this more complex than it needs to be dude. Also aura 3 is rather limiting. The warlord influence goes out to like 10.
#37 jusmhar Jun 30, 2010 0:00:44	warlord influence is also just for inish. Auras will do more than just one or two things. My friend and i toned tail slap to this Tail Slap - Dragon Shaman Attack 1 Though you may or may not have a tail as mighty as the dragon, you primal connection allows you to do just fine. At-will * Primal Standard Action Burst 1 Target: One creature Attack: Constitution vs. Fortitude Hit: Constitution modifier damage and the target becomes stunned until the end of your next turn. thoughts? or should it just be knocked prone period.
#38 rampant Jun 30, 2010 1:27:45	What's the difference between burst one, targeting only a single creature and just plain old melee? Also Like I said stun is too powerful for an at will. However the warlord ability works just like an aura. I'm not saying you have to put it out to ten, I'm just saying like 5, maybe with a feat to extend it more. Also that it should have an effect not just be a blank feature.
#39 Novacat Jun 30, 2010 1:32:14	What's the difference between burst one, targeting only a single creature and just plain old melee? Close attacks don't suffer from concealment, and don't trigger abilities that look for melee attacks.
#40 Bera Jun 30, 2010 1:49:54	What's the difference between burst one, targeting only a single creature and just plain old melee? A close burst 1 targeting one enemy will ignore concealment, at the very least. Also Like I said stun is too powerful for an at will. Agreed. However the warlord ability works just like an aura. I'm not saying you have to put it out to ten, I'm just saying like 5, maybe with a feat to extend it more. Also that it should have an effect not just be a blank feature. Yeah. I'd just say that each daily power should have an aura effect. That makes the Dragon Shaman a little more like the Barbarian/Warden in their powers, which would really fit with the primal. Something like - Effect: You project an aura 5 until the end of the encounter. Allies who start their turn within the aura gain temporary hit points equal to your constitution modifier. You count as an ally for purposes of this aura. You could even toy with giving at-will or encounter powers aura-altering features, like expanding the size of an aura you're projecting, or giving the aura an additional effect (like +1 power bonus for allies making attacks). These sorts of things could also be feats: Aura Pulse Prereq: Dragon Shaman Benefit: Whenever you use a Dragon Shaman at-will attack power, increase the size of any aura you are projecting by your charisma modifier until the beginning of your next turn. You might have to fiddle with the keywords or a class feature if you find that you need the Dragon Shaman's aura powers to work slightly differently than the standard aura keyword, but if you can get away with just the standard keyword, that would be best.
#41 jusmhar Jun 30, 2010 1:53:48	I have an aura feat that extends it to Aura 6. I also have a feat that lets you sustain ones that require a sustain action as a free instead of minor Maybe default aura is a bonus to inish? Alright, since so many people say Tail Slap is too powerful, opinions on how to tone it down?
#42 Bera Jun 30, 2010 2:49:36	Tail Slap - Dragon Shaman Attack 1 Primal draconic spirits infuse your weapon with their agility. At-will * Primal, Weapon Standard Action Melee Weapon Target: One creature Attack: Constitution vs. AC Hit: 1[w] + Constitution modifier damage and slide the target one square. The attacks need a weapon or implement keyword. Knocking someone prone, stunning, or even dazing are probably too strong to be on an at-will attack. A nice slide is still thematically appropriate though.
#43 mysticbelmont Jun 30, 2010 7:27:32	Tail Slap - Dragon Shaman Attack 1 Primal draconic spirits infuse your weapon with their agility. At-will * Primal, Weapon Standard Action Melee Weapon Target: One creature Attack: Constitution vs. AC Hit: 1[w] + Constitution modifier damage and slide the target one square. The attacks need a weapon or implement keyword. Knocking someone prone, stunning, or even dazing are probably too strong to be on an at-will attack. A nice slide is still thematically appropriate though. I like that version.
#44 jusmhar Jun 30, 2010 8:58:08	yeah, still very leadery. alright, i'll fix it up and post the updates with the attacks i have so far.
#45 jusmhar Jun 30, 2010 10:42:03	Alright. First post has had the update. Big time. The whole... spoiler block thing is a pain in the ass though and doesn't want to appear the way its suppose to. Oh well, nothing's left out. I also removed the list of auras because well, I've already added a couple as attacks and i'll slowly bring those back in as their level comes up.
#46 rampant Jun 30, 2010 12:29:35	Ok there is no line area in the rules, so either change that power or define a line. Don't gimp out with an initiative aura do something that matches the class. Maybe it depends on which build you chose. Chromatic: +x damage on action point attacks (something aggressive) MEtallic: +x on save to end effects that inflict status conditions (something defensive) Catastrophic: +x on defense vs. area affects, or grant the ability to push enemies on an action point attack Extend the ranged dude seriously. If your buddies are that clumped up it's like wearing a big sign that says "Please eat us" to anything with a recharging area attack. If you're going to give them a healing aura, give them a healing aura, what you've got is a short ranged version of the warlord healing ability. Try letting one ally within x squares spend a surge, all allies within your aura regain x hp. 2x hp at level 11, and 3x hp at level 21. Now seeing as aura is not a keyword in powers, it means you can simplify each aura ability greatly. Just let the daily attack powers or utility powers grant auras that last until the end of a fight. If you're that worried about about stacking auras then make the auras that aren't part of the class features require a sustain minor. There is no need for special rules here. Next up you're missing the implement keyword in a bunch of powers, you kinda need that otherwise your non-weapon attack powers start to suck. EDIT: Better yet, instead of having the bonus healing be part of the power make the healing power (touch of vitality maybe?) be a standard long range heal with little or no extra riders, but make the basic aura of the D-shaman add extra healing to any ally that regains HP within its influence.
#47 jusmhar Jun 30, 2010 13:50:23	The friend who's helping me and I were talking about the default aura and we put down +2 to damage rolls. But i like the idea of different build, different aura. Yeah, maybe i will default the aura 6... Line... line is kinda hard... it's like a range but it hits everything between you and the end... gotta define that better. Sucks that there's no line in 4e... Yeah, as I get to more powerful Auras, they'll require a minor to sustain, and later a free if they feat into it. And i was thinking about the implement keyword too. It would make sense that they use the totem implement to channel the dragon's primal power to use the breath weapons or grow wings out of primal energy.
#48 rampant Jun 30, 2010 16:11:38	Don't forget the Rods, for some reason the image of a D-shaman with a rod and a mace won't leave me alone. Besides Totems tend to be sucky. I mean they really screwed to poor shaman with those things. Besides every class with the exception of the Shaman has either multiple implement options or can use Ki foci.
#49 jusmhar Jun 30, 2010 17:02:11	Yeah, i have that image too for some reason... Was also thinking about the whole swordmage thing and implements in "weapons you are proficient in" Also thinking about adding hammers to weapon proficiencies... yay bludgeoning weapons :3
#50 rampant Jun 30, 2010 19:10:30	MIght be better to go the bard route there and just make magic weapons that count as implements for D-shaman powers.
#51 jusmhar Jun 30, 2010 23:08:47	Been working on a bunch of attacks today. May even have up to lv. 2 done with some attacks ready for beyond that. As soon as i get up to lv. 3 or 4 done i want to play test the class, especially the different builds.
#52 rampant Jul 01, 2010 11:51:47	I wouldn't get too excited about the powers until you have the basic class fleshed out more.
#53 jusmhar Jul 01, 2010 16:14:34	what do you think still needs work or do you mean the flavor of the class? EDIT: i noticed i'm missing one more class feature. How's this? One with Nature Because of your time spent in the wilds to gain a better understanding of the Dragons, you have also gained a better understand of all life around you. Because of this, you add your charisma modifier to checks made to identify facts about creatures
#54 rampant Jul 01, 2010 18:03:53	Well Like I said your healing ability is kinda under powered as it stands. See most healing powers already do that out to much greater range. And it's not very aura-y.
#55 jusmhar Jul 01, 2010 18:32:26	yeah, i'm thinking about changing it. Reach of Vitality or something... can't be touch cause it's not melee touch. range 7 or 8. + int mod hp if within the aura. though i am thinking about touch of vitality being a utility.
#56 Namagem Jul 01, 2010 19:01:24	How about: Dragon's Vigor Minor- Aura + 2 Target: you or one ally in aura Effect: Target spends a healing surge Chromatic: One ally in aura gains a +1 to attack rolls (two allies at paragon, three allies at epic) Metallic: One ally in aura gains 1d6 extra hit points (two allies at paragon, three allies at epic) Catastrophic: One ally in aura may shift (Half Mod) squares as a free action (two allies at paragon, three allies at epic) Just a suggestion
#57 jusmhar Jul 01, 2010 19:51:17	hrm... dunno. I know i'm having the default aura differ from build to build, pretty much what Rampant suggested a page or two ago.
#58 rampant Jul 01, 2010 21:43:19	Here's what I suggest for the healz, two abilities instead of one Gift of Vitality one target in close burst 10 cam spend a healing surge to regain HP Aura of Recovery whenever an ally within x squares spends a healing surge to regain HP they regain an additional y hp.
#59 jusmhar Jul 01, 2010 22:20:38	hrm... gift of vitality would be a good just for the default healing feaure. Aura of Recovery is a nice little utility. I'll show my friend and see what we can do. We'll probably use them. Thanks for all the help by the way.
#60 rampant Jul 01, 2010 23:41:59	My goal here is to provide both the basic healing function of the LEader, but also play up the aura type stuff. Allowing the d-Shammy to heal everyone in a smaller burst proved too problematic, so I figured this was the best way to rig it up. Now you have the ability to heal at a decent range, but still reward allies for healing within your area of influence.
#61 jusmhar Jul 02, 2010 0:36:57	yeah, i marked aura of recovery as a lv. 2 utility. this is what we got for auras, pretty much based off what you suggested. Cataclysmic: +2 AC vs. AoO Chromatic: +2 damage rolls Metallic: +2 Saving throws Good? Also, anything else i should focus on fixing before i get back to working on attacks? EDIT: just updated the central build on the front page to include Hammers under weapon proficiencies, rods under implements, the update to the healing feature, and the auras for the proper builds.
#62 Bera Jul 02, 2010 3:02:21	OK: Weapons: Why not give them martial melee weapons in general? If you're giving all hammers and simple melee weapons, you're basically saying the hammer is the iconic weapon of the dragon shaman. Why is that more iconic than swords or spears? You could give distinct builds an additional weapon proficiency, so that different builds have iconic weapons. Armor: Right now Con/Cha builds have no AC and are likely to be in melee a lot. They need at least chain, if not something better. Skills: Giving 5 skills is a lot, particularly for a class that doesn't seem like it'd be skill heavy. Dragon Shamans might also need access to Arcana. Builds: Distinguish between writing class features and sample builds. Also, I'm not a big fan of the chromatic/metallic/catastrophic distinction, but only because I don't know what that's supposed to mean. Which dragons are the hunters, which are kings, which are hoarders and which are forces of nature. Being more descriptive might be helpful. Aura: I like giving them the aura as a feature, but aura 3 is too small. Doing it as an Aura 5 will put them in line with close-range cleric powers. You could still have feats or powers to temporarily expand the aura. But by giving a default "blank" aura, you have easily modify it by feats. Make sure you read the aura keywords though, you might need to say something about what happens if the dragon shaman is reduced to 0 hp, or whether the aura effects can target the dragon shaman as well. Vitality: I'd like to see this make more use of the aura feature. Maybe as a Breath of Life, the dragon shaman can distribute the extra healing dice around in the aura, rather than just give them all to one person? Or, make it a close-blast power, and the extra benefits apply to allies within the blast, rather than the aura. Powers/feats: I'd put these on the backburner for now. You want to develope the class features before you make ways to modify them.
#63 jusmhar Jul 02, 2010 11:01:18	Weapons: D-Shamans use bludgeoning weapons. They did in 3.5 anyways. I don't think i can just say bludgeoning under weapon proficiency and i don't want the swords from military melee so i put in hammers... i dunno. maybe just Hammers and Maces under weapon proficiencies instead. Armor: I'm gonna re-add hide armor... Skills: nature +3 sounds better? Builds: The different dragon types live different lives and Dragon Shaman tend to be different depending on the type of dragon they worship. I have lots of fluff that differ them, but for space sake, here's the difference. Cataclysmic Dragon Shamans are Leaders who are a bit controllery as well, Chromatic Dragon Shamans are Leaders who are a bit of a striker as well, and Metallic Dragon Shamans are just straight up leaders. If anything, they may flirt with some defendery stuff but not much. Aura: Damn it, i forgot to edit it. the new Aura is Aura 6 and you can feat into Aura 10 Vitality: i actually have a Touch of Vitality utility. As for breath of life, i have one called Breath of Rejuvination that deals 1d6 + con healing to allies XP. Also got Rampant's Aura of... recovery i think, that adds Con mod to hit points if allies use a healing surge under the aura. Gift of Vitality should also be burst 10, i thought i changed it. Power/feats: yeah, i am. I'm just trying to finish the one's i started before i get onto more.
#64 rampant Jul 02, 2010 12:34:34	Ok going back to the warlord a bit. He has a basic aura (+2 init) and the build aura (action point attacks get modified based on build) I was suggesting the Healing aura be a basic aura. Because the proposed gift of vitality is a weak heal i thought it would be good to provide bonus healing in some manner.
#65 jusmhar Jul 02, 2010 14:36:03	ok. this is what i'm thinking of now. Gift of vitality burst 5 (10 at 11, 15 at 21) allies can spend a healing surge and gain an extra 1d6 + con mod hit points. etc at every five level thing the Aura of Healing thing Allies who spend a healing surge under you aura receive temporary hit points equal to your con mod
#66 jusmhar Jul 08, 2010 17:52:40	bla... it's been kinda slow. We were suppose to test the class monday but my plans changed and we couldn't do it. We feel confident in the core set up of the dragon shaman too, though i had to change implements to "Weapons proficient in," pretty much follow the rules for Swordmage proficiencies. Cause even though i think it would be cool for the dragon shaman to hold a mace in one hand and the implement rod in the other... i'm trying to focus that shields are important too with the class... and if they got a mace in one hand and a shield in the other, how are they gonna hold their rod? so yeah, had to do that change. I've also been sick the past couple days so that's put a damper on my willingness to work on this stuff. I'm starting to get better and i've made some new attacks, including the base for what i want the lv. 29 dailies to be :3 Blue Lightning, Gold Inferno, Blizzard Freeze {temp name}. also got some other stuff done. I have a pdf of the dragon shaman too. I'll upload that somewhere if anyone wants to see, mainly cause i hate how the first post keeps layering.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

jusmhar

Jun 26, 2010 20:19:22

I have recently fallen in love with the Dragon Shaman class in 3.5 and i don't feel like waiting for Wizards to bring them to 4e. So I've been working on a 4e variation over the past... hour. I mainly just have the basics for the build and the class features done. One of the things i'm not quiet sure of is the role. My friend thinks it would be a leader because of the draconic auras {they'll be utilities in here} where as i think they'd be a defender cause my 3.5 dragon shaman is quiet the meat-shield. Anyways, here it is.
Edit: 7/1

Class Traits

Role: Leader. After years of devotion to the dragons, you use your skills to make both you and your allies harder, better, faster, and stronger.

Power Source: Primal. You call upon the primal force of the dragons to power your attacks while in battle.

Key Abilities: Constitution, Charisma, Intelligence

Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, Leather, Hide, light shields

Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, Hammers, Maces

Implements: Rods, Totems

Bonus to Defenses: +1 Fortitude, +1 Will

Hit Points at 1st level: 10 + Constitution Score

Hit Points per Level Gained: 5

Healing Surges per Day: 6 + Constitution Modifier

Trained Skills: Nature. From the class skills list below, choose four more trained skills at first level
- Acrobatics (Dex) Athletics (Str), Bluff (Cha), Endurance (Con), Heal (wis), Intimidate (Cha), Perception (Wis), Stealth (Dex)

Class Traits: Draconic Aura, Healing Aura, Ritual Casting

Dragon Shaman Builds

Show

Cataclysmic Dragon Shaman

Draconic Aura: Allies receive a +2 power bonus to AC against Opportunity Attacks

Suggested Feat: Sickening Breath

Suggested At-will Powers: Lead the Charge, Tail Slap

Suggested Encounter Power: Roar of the Dragon

Suggested Daily Power: Breath of Slumbers

Chromatic Dragon Build

Draconic Aura: Allies receive a +2 power bonus to damage rolls

Suggested Feat:

Suggested At-Will Powers: Lead the Charge, Wing Slam

Suggested Encounter Power:

Suggested Daily Power: Vengeance of a Thousand Wounds

Metallic Dragon Build

Draconic Aura: Allies receive a +2 power bonus to saving throws

Suggested Feat: Increase Dragon Aura

Suggested At-Will Powers: Dragon's Mark, Prepare for Battle

Suggested Encounter Power: Large and In Charge

Suggested Daily Power

Bera

Jun 27, 2010 5:06:29

First off, you might need to pick a role before you go any further. If the defining characteristic of the Dragon Shaman is the Aura and providing buffs to his allies, I'd go with leader. Just makes more sense than giving him a marking mechanic to be a defender. A melee leader, but a leader nonetheless.

Second, I think a Str/Cha might be more appropriate than int. So Str/Cha or Str/Con. Dunno how you want to turn those into a couple distinct build options.

Third, the weapon/implement proficiencies are a bit odd. Do they need implements at all? Giving rods and all the weapons they're proficient in seems odd, and overpowered unless the dragon shaman is going to be doing lots of ranged blasts, when you seemed to want him to be a melee guy.

Fourth, Totem Dragon and Draconic adaptation can be the same class feature. Its a lot of fluff, but no sense listing the dragon type choices twice if you really only choose once. Furthermore, for Draconic Adaptation it might be simpler to give out things like icewalk or a swim speed equal to your speed, rather than bonuses to skill checks when possible. You might consider ditching these specific options and going toward draconic archetypes instead, such as the dragon as king, dragon as beast, dragon as hoarder...

Fifth, I'd like to see Touch of Vitality turned into the Healing Word-type power, possibly with the option of ditching the extra healing for saving throws, or giving off a different type of effect depending on the aura that is up, like the runepriest.

Lastly, the dragon breath and scales could be ditched. Breath as an encounter power seems to step on the toes of the Dragonborn's power, and scales just seem like unnecessary scailing defense. Consider wrapping the dragon breath into a number of encounter powers, and put the dragon auras into the daily powers.

Interesting take though. Have you looked for other adaptations yet:
www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=79...

mysticbelmont

Jun 27, 2010 11:52:43

You could roll all of the class features into a single choice, similar to the sorceror.

urpriest

Jun 27, 2010 15:56:12

I'm not sure Arcane is really appropriate. I'd rather go with Elemental, or something non-WotC like Dragon. Synergy problems given current rules, but more appropriate.

jusmhar

Jun 27, 2010 19:06:54

it's power source was something else i was debatable with. Arcane or Primal. both were from the same reason. Primal was because they'd be getting their power from the primal forces that are dragons, and arcane because they were attempting to mimic the dragons magical powers.

Xanamir

Jun 28, 2010 11:58:12

One thing that I've found when I've tried to design classes that I want to play for myself is that it becomes VERY hard to look at its power level objectively, which becomes a problem when you start designing powers from scratch. I'm not saying there's anything overpowered here, just that it's something to consider.

I would suggest that if you want to build a dragon shaman (I played one too in 3.5, they're sweet) I would first make a list of all of the features you want to include throughout your build and then first look at which powers from other classes would be most appropriate. For example, you could match the Dragon Scales flat armor bonus with the Sorcerer's Scales of the Dragon power (+2 to AC when first bloodied for the rest of the encounter.) Touch of Vitality can be the Paladin's Lay on Hands, except change out the Wisdom modifier for one of the dragon shaman's modifiers (charisma or constitution, maybe.)

In my opinion, primal would be a good power source to choose from, since the totem dragon feels very, very primal already. You're just choosing to worship a different type of totem spirit than the normal druid. Also, it would lend a bit of flavor to the class, since there really isn't a strong "primal dragon" class already, while arcane feels a bit of overlap thematically with sorcerer.

You'll have to be careful with using the auras as utilities; I'd have to see some examples of what you have in mind, since they can affect the entire power and quickly get out of control if not balanced.

There's a lot more I could say on the topic, but for now, let me simply state that I think it's a cool idea and I wish you luck in your attempt.

jusmhar

Jun 28, 2010 12:48:58

I'm about to do update it. I switched out int for cha and tweaked out aura's worked as well as his healing encounter. Touch of vitality's gone and i replaced it with a healing aura. You'll see how it works when i post the update. I also have a couple feats but they're not much. Also, i'm tweaking the dragon breath so hopefully it's it's own breath weapon without being too much like the dragonborn's breath weapon.

rampant

Jun 28, 2010 15:13:20

Question: Wouldn't it be simpler to take the existing Shaman class and intro Dragon SHaman as a new build? That way you only have to come up with class features based on the regular shaman and a handful of powers.

If no then May I suggest that instead of making a different dragon shaman for each individual dragon strain you instead make a build for each major clan: chromatic, metallic, and catastrophic.

urpriest

Jun 28, 2010 15:15:53

Question: Wouldn't it be simpler to take the existing Shaman class and intro Dragon SHaman as a new build?

Aside from the shared name, 3.5 Dragon Shamans had nothing to do with traditional Shamans of any of the other 3.5 types.

#10

rampant

Jun 28, 2010 15:18:11

No it didn't but this 4e version is already a primal leader so I thought the idea was worth mentioning.

#11

Xanamir

Jun 28, 2010 16:28:31

From what I've seen of shaman in 4e, they play very, very differently with the way their spirit companion works. I suppose one could add a bunch of draconic flavor by making it a "spirit dragon" (which would actually be pretty cool). Dragon shaman from 3e, however, plays more like a warlord; a lead-from-the-front type, melee combatant that supports his allies.

Actually, a dragonborn warlord would probably play pretty much like a dragon shaman, now that I think about it.

But converting classes is always fun, so I'm curious to see what jusmhar comes up with.

#12

jusmhar

Jun 28, 2010 18:29:35

@ rampant - Arcana and divine have two leaders. Arcana has the Bard and Artificer classes while Divine has the Cleric and Runepriest classes. So it's really not out there for primal to have two leaders as well.

@ Xanamir - I'm curious to see what i come up with too. I got some more feats and the bases for the auras down. of coarse the level they are determines what they do to an extent. Also, i'm thinking of the auras, save healing aura, are treated as zones for rules purposes and are sustained as a minor. Therfore, some of the smaller auras like power, presense, and sense would be at the lower levels but something as powerful as energy shield would be way later on {i'm thinking 2d6 + con mod damage as an immediate reaction when hit >3}

#13

rampant

Jun 28, 2010 19:08:47

Here's a thought, what if the attack powers take the form of breath weapon attacks and allies in the area get a boost instead of taking damage.

#14

jusmhar

Jun 28, 2010 20:06:44

like the dragonborn feat that does the same thing? The breath weapon is the big thing i wanna keep and am unsure how to do it. I dunno if it'll be a class feature, a feat into class feature, or just normal attacks.

#15

rampant

Jun 28, 2010 23:24:11

Ok I know the individual dragon type totem was a big deal in the 3e version but just stay with me for a bit here.

Ditch it.

Instead create builds based on categories of dragon types, such as metallic/chromatic/catastrophic.

Then the breath weapon becomes many of the various attack powers, for instance you might choose between a level one encounter power that's a close blast of fire, or another that's a ranged attack that arcs to a secondary target or more. Instead of trying to make it a class feature you just base most of the attack powers around it. Then whenever your area attacks would hit an ally they get a boost depending on the power.

Example: A close blast 3 fire attack deals moderate damage to each enemy caught in the blast. However each ally in the area affected is not only undamaged but the flames linger about them burning anything foolish enough to strike at them until your next turn.

Another Example: A ranged 10 electric attack that hits one enemy and any enemy within x squares of the first guy. If there's an ally within x squares you may have that ally mark the primary (and possibly secondary targets) gain +y on attack and/or damage against them, and shock them a little if they attack anyone not marking them, or move away from the ally. (this one would probably be harder to balance)

#16

jusmhar

Jun 28, 2010 23:59:58

Sounds interesting. I know my friends and I were talking about that with the breath weapons. Mainly if there should just be a default breath weapon at lv. 1, 13, and whatever lv replaces a lv. 13 encounter if any {i dunno, my current 4e campaign's my first taste of D&D and they're only at lv. 11} and then a class features lets them feat into breath weapon feats as if they had the dragonborn prereq, or if i should give them different breath weapons through the leveling process, each one doing something different, like the metabreath feats in 3.5's draconomicon.

#17

rampant

Jun 29, 2010 0:31:49

No see I'm talking about the encounter, and probably the daily attack powers being primarily breath weapon type abilities. You're looking at a leader who is heavily subbed into controller.

I'd advise 2-3 breath weapon based powers per level of attack powers.

MEta-breath techniques would be good as feats or utility powers.

Considering The healing power the old D-shaman had you should really consider handing out the ritual caster feat as a class feature as well.

#18

jusmhar

Jun 29, 2010 1:02:12

kinda makes me feel i should have a breath keyword instead of the dragon devouter class feature {it's the feature i was talking about}. give dragon shaman's their own feats... that or allow dragonborn have them too. it's kinda a big deal because if this is good enough for my campaign i gotta look out for the dragonborn who's in it already.

#19

rampant

Jun 29, 2010 1:16:58

Well that's the brilliance of just making the powers that, you don't need a new keyword, or a bunch of feats, they're powers, they just do stuff.

D-born already have plenty of meta-breath options.

#20

Bera

Jun 29, 2010 3:58:52

I'd avoid making a class that automatically qualifies for racial feats, or letting a race automatically qualify for class feats. That's why I think a close-combat leader with a number of close-blast attacks and daily attacks with auras might be really cool. Its also a bit different than any of the other leader options out there, making it worthwhile as a distinct class, rather than just a Sorcerer or Ardent build.

They'd need to balance weapons and implements if they have a lot of melee and close-blast attacks though. You could go ki focus, but maybe they could choose one weapon group, like Light/heavy blades, spears or hammers, to be useable as implements. It could even depend on the build as to which weapons group(s?) they used, in addition to totems.

#21

jusmhar

Jun 29, 2010 9:53:38

so you're saying different breath weapons is the way to go for these powers?

as for the implements and such and weapon proficiencies, i was trying hard to make it close to the 3.5 version and i really that's kind dumb now. Also, what are ki focus? no one in my party uses them so i haven't really bothered to look up the rules on them.

#22

rampant

Jun 29, 2010 10:15:15

Essentially they're the best implement ever.

They don't take up a body slot, plus their enchantment and properties can be applied to any weapon you wield as well as to implement powers.

However They're not really thematically appropriate for this class, or at least I don't think so.

Rods, staves, and totems spring to mind as being the proper choices for this class, considering how many mace wielding D-shaman I recall it seems to fit.

#23

jusmhar

Jun 29, 2010 11:42:54

yeah, i'm also debating military melee as well... maybe adding just hammers to weapon proficiencies.

Also, that suggestion you made about the builds instead of totem dragons, I'm seriously looking into it now. At first i wasn't, because I didn't know how to make the different builds... different. Well now I do. Chromatic Dragon Shaman's lean more towards striker as a secondary role. Metallic Dragon Shaman's are either just a straight up leader, or may lean more on a defender secondary role. Cataclysmic Dragon Shaman's lean towards Controller secondary role. Also, the dragon totem will be a feat they can take. It gives a +2 to attack and damage rolls with attacks that share a keyword with your totem dragon.

#24

jusmhar

Jun 29, 2010 18:23:38

Bugger. Forgot to post the update before work. Oh well, i'll be home in about an hour and i'll post it then. I'm pretty much done with the build of the class itself. Just wanna iron out the builds a little and i should be able to start getting serious with the different attacks. Make the Auras in block formate and i even got a couple different breath weapons in there too, most based off the metabreath feats from the draconomicon like clinging breath, lingering breath, shape breath, etc.

#25

rampant

Jun 29, 2010 18:32:18

Shape would probably function better as a utility to alter a power's area of effect rather than an attack all its own.

#26

jusmhar

Jun 29, 2010 18:57:22

yeah, really all it is is an attack that can be, i think, either a burst 3 or a ranged 4 attack. hell, i may just make it a feat again.

Shape Breath
Prereq: Dragon Shaman
Attacks with Breath in it's name can be treated as a burst 3 or a range 4 attack

Mastered Shape Breath
Prereq: Dragon Shaman, level 11, Shape Breath feat
Attacks with breath in it's name can be treated as a burst 5 or range 6 attack

maybe something to that degree?

#27

jusmhar

Jun 29, 2010 19:42:43

all updated :3 I wish I had a program to make a pdf file so i can make it look more proffessional.

#28

rampant

Jun 29, 2010 21:21:09

Look you're trying too hard dude.

The aura powers can be just that, powers.

If you must have a constant aura give them something like the warlord, allies within X squares get a minor bonus. Maybe based on your chosen tribe of dragons?

Chromatic: ???
Metallic: A bonus on saves?
Catastrophic: A bonus on defenses against area attacks?

#29

jusmhar

Jun 29, 2010 21:33:49

well the auras are just the basic build, what i want and the level I'll most likely put them in. and yeah, auras can be sustained as a minor, but can be feated later to be sustained as a free action. And Chromatic, Metallic, and Catastrophic are going to be builds.

#30

mysticbelmont

Jun 29, 2010 22:46:27

Essentially they're the best implement ever.

They don't take up a body slot, plus their enchantment and properties can be applied to any weapon you wield as well as to implement powers.

However They're not really thematically appropriate for this class, or at least I don't think so.

Rods, staves, and totems spring to mind as being the proper choices for this class, considering how many mace wielding D-shaman I recall it seems to fit.

I like the idea of using ki-focus, but wouldn't that make them more psychic than primal, which is what the TC is shooting for.

Anyways, if the TC is looking for attack powers and the such, there are plenty of books that the TC can look in. Not to mention, all of the dragon breaths that can be featured. Being able to replicate the cone of sleep as a daily sleep spell would be awesome.

#31

jusmhar

Jun 29, 2010 22:54:04

here's the at-wills, working on the lv. 1 encounters right now

Dragon's Mark - Dragon Shaman Attack 1
You strike your enemy and weaken him, making him the perfect target for your allies
At-will * Primal, Weapon
Standard Action Melee
Target: One creature
Attack: Constitution vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Constitution Modifier damage and the next ally to attack the target gets a bonus to attack rolls equal to your intelligence modifier. If no one attacks the target by your next turn, the bonus is lost.
Increase to 2[W] + Constitution modifier at 21st level

Lead the Charge - Dragon Shaman Attack 1
A Dragon Shaman is many things, but he must never forget the thing he was meant to do: Fight.
At-will * Primal, Weapon
Standard Action Melee
Special: Before the attack, you can shift up to 2 squares
Target: One creature
Attack: Constitution vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Constitution Modifier damage and allies adjacent to you before the shift can shift 1 square and receive a +2 bonus on their next attack roll.
Increase to 2[W] + Constitution Modifer at 21st level

Tail Slap - Dragon Shaman Attack 1
Though you may or may not have a tail as mighty as the dragon, you primal connection allows you to do just fine.
At-will * Primal
Standard Action Melee
Target: One creature
Attack: Constitution vs. Fortitude
Hit: Constitution modifier damage and the target becomes stunned. If target is already stunned, it becomes knocked prone as well.

Wing Smash - Dragon Shaman Attack 1
Primal Wings seem to grow out of your back and strikes out at two enemies, disappearing as quickly as they appeared
At-will * Primal
Standard Action Melee
Target: One or two creatures
Attack: Constitution vs. AC
Hit: 1d6 + constitution modifier damage
Increase to 2d6 + constitution modifier at 21st level

Prepare for Battle - Dragon Shaman Attack 1
With enemies all around you, the power behind your aura surges, filling your allies with a new found vigor.
At-Will * Primal, Aura
Standard Action Aura 3
Target: Allies in Aura
Effect: Until the end of your next turn, allies within the aura gain temporary hit points equal to your charisma modifier.

#32

rampant

Jun 29, 2010 23:02:47

Dude Auras are for lasting effects, the best way to grant them is via dailies, and class features.

Tail slap may be over powered.

You don't need to make a class feature that just gives them a blank aura, is what I was getting at.

Just give them a basic aura ability like what the warlord gives.

#33

jusmhar

Jun 29, 2010 23:13:04

ok... with auras. I assume you mean like the boost to inish that warlords give. So how about this

Draconic Aura
Allies within 3 squares of you can be affected by abilities you have with the aura keyword. Effects granted by the Auras end when the allies leave the area affected by the aura, or you are knocked unconscious.

better? Also, for tail slap. Maybe no damage instead would be better?

#34

mysticbelmont

Jun 29, 2010 23:25:48

Now that I think about it, maybe eliminating the knocked prone part of tail slap.

#35

jusmhar

Jun 29, 2010 23:32:14

awwww.... but the knocked prone is awesome... then again it's an lv. 1 at-will... hrm... maybe a later on encounter could be Tail Slam and knocks prone...

#36

rampant

Jun 29, 2010 23:48:21

i was referring to the stunned aspect actually.

Look dude you don't have to make up all this crap about powers with the aura keyword. Just give them auras as part of their powers. You're making this more complex than it needs to be dude.

Also aura 3 is rather limiting.

The warlord influence goes out to like 10.

#37

jusmhar

Jun 30, 2010 0:00:44

warlord influence is also just for inish. Auras will do more than just one or two things. My friend and i toned tail slap to this

Tail Slap - Dragon Shaman Attack 1
Though you may or may not have a tail as mighty as the dragon, you primal connection allows you to do just fine.
At-will * Primal
Standard Action Burst 1
Target: One creature
Attack: Constitution vs. Fortitude
Hit: Constitution modifier damage and the target becomes stunned until the end of your next turn.

thoughts? or should it just be knocked prone period.

#38

rampant

Jun 30, 2010 1:27:45

What's the difference between burst one, targeting only a single creature and just plain old melee?

Also Like I said stun is too powerful for an at will.

However the warlord ability works just like an aura. I'm not saying you have to put it out to ten, I'm just saying like 5, maybe with a feat to extend it more. Also that it should have an effect not just be a blank feature.

#39

Novacat

Jun 30, 2010 1:32:14

What's the difference between burst one, targeting only a single creature and just plain old melee?

Close attacks don't suffer from concealment, and don't trigger abilities that look for melee attacks.

#40

Bera

Jun 30, 2010 1:49:54

What's the difference between burst one, targeting only a single creature and just plain old melee?

A close burst 1 targeting one enemy will ignore concealment, at the very least.

Also Like I said stun is too powerful for an at will.

Agreed.

However the warlord ability works just like an aura. I'm not saying you have to put it out to ten, I'm just saying like 5, maybe with a feat to extend it more. Also that it should have an effect not just be a blank feature.

Yeah. I'd just say that each daily power should have an aura effect. That makes the Dragon Shaman a little more like the Barbarian/Warden in their powers, which would really fit with the primal. Something like - Effect: You project an aura 5 until the end of the encounter. Allies who start their turn within the aura gain temporary hit points equal to your constitution modifier. You count as an ally for purposes of this aura.

You could even toy with giving at-will or encounter powers aura-altering features, like expanding the size of an aura you're projecting, or giving the aura an additional effect (like +1 power bonus for allies making attacks). These sorts of things could also be feats:
Aura Pulse
Prereq: Dragon Shaman
Benefit: Whenever you use a Dragon Shaman at-will attack power, increase the size of any aura you are projecting by your charisma modifier until the beginning of your next turn.

You might have to fiddle with the keywords or a class feature if you find that you need the Dragon Shaman's aura powers to work slightly differently than the standard aura keyword, but if you can get away with just the standard keyword, that would be best.

#41

jusmhar

Jun 30, 2010 1:53:48

I have an aura feat that extends it to Aura 6. I also have a feat that lets you sustain ones that require a sustain action as a free instead of minor

Maybe default aura is a bonus to inish?

Alright, since so many people say Tail Slap is too powerful, opinions on how to tone it down?

#42

Bera

Jun 30, 2010 2:49:36

Tail Slap - Dragon Shaman Attack 1
Primal draconic spirits infuse your weapon with their agility.
At-will * Primal, Weapon
Standard Action Melee Weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Constitution vs. AC
Hit: 1[w] + Constitution modifier damage and slide the target one square.

The attacks need a weapon or implement keyword. Knocking someone prone, stunning, or even dazing are probably too strong to be on an at-will attack. A nice slide is still thematically appropriate though.

#43

mysticbelmont

Jun 30, 2010 7:27:32

Tail Slap - Dragon Shaman Attack 1
Primal draconic spirits infuse your weapon with their agility.
At-will * Primal, Weapon
Standard Action Melee Weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Constitution vs. AC
Hit: 1[w] + Constitution modifier damage and slide the target one square.

The attacks need a weapon or implement keyword. Knocking someone prone, stunning, or even dazing are probably too strong to be on an at-will attack. A nice slide is still thematically appropriate though.

I like that version.

#44

jusmhar

Jun 30, 2010 8:58:08

yeah, still very leadery. alright, i'll fix it up and post the updates with the attacks i have so far.

#45

jusmhar

Jun 30, 2010 10:42:03

Alright. First post has had the update. Big time. The whole... spoiler block thing is a pain in the ass though and doesn't want to appear the way its suppose to. Oh well, nothing's left out. I also removed the list of auras because well, I've already added a couple as attacks and i'll slowly bring those back in as their level comes up.

#46

rampant

Jun 30, 2010 12:29:35

Ok there is no line area in the rules, so either change that power or define a line.

Don't gimp out with an initiative aura do something that matches the class.
Maybe it depends on which build you chose.

Chromatic: +x damage on action point attacks (something aggressive)
MEtallic: +x on save to end effects that inflict status conditions (something defensive)
Catastrophic: +x on defense vs. area affects, or grant the ability to push enemies on an action point attack

Extend the ranged dude seriously. If your buddies are that clumped up it's like wearing a big sign that says "Please eat us" to anything with a recharging area attack.

If you're going to give them a healing aura, give them a healing aura, what you've got is a short ranged version of the warlord healing ability.

Try letting one ally within x squares spend a surge, all allies within your aura regain x hp. 2x hp at level 11, and 3x hp at level 21.

Now seeing as aura is not a keyword in powers, it means you can simplify each aura ability greatly. Just let the daily attack powers or utility powers grant auras that last until the end of a fight. If you're that worried about about stacking auras then make the auras that aren't part of the class features require a sustain minor. There is no need for special rules here.

Next up you're missing the implement keyword in a bunch of powers, you kinda need that otherwise your non-weapon attack powers start to suck.

EDIT: Better yet, instead of having the bonus healing be part of the power make the healing power (touch of vitality maybe?) be a standard long range heal with little or no extra riders, but make the basic aura of the D-shaman add extra healing to any ally that regains HP within its influence.

#47

jusmhar

Jun 30, 2010 13:50:23

The friend who's helping me and I were talking about the default aura and we put down +2 to damage rolls. But i like the idea of different build, different aura.

Yeah, maybe i will default the aura 6...

Line... line is kinda hard... it's like a range but it hits everything between you and the end... gotta define that better. Sucks that there's no line in 4e...

Yeah, as I get to more powerful Auras, they'll require a minor to sustain, and later a free if they feat into it. And i was thinking about the implement keyword too. It would make sense that they use the totem implement to channel the dragon's primal power to use the breath weapons or grow wings out of primal energy.

#48

rampant

Jun 30, 2010 16:11:38

Don't forget the Rods, for some reason the image of a D-shaman with a rod and a mace won't leave me alone. Besides Totems tend to be sucky. I mean they really screwed to poor shaman with those things. Besides every class with the exception of the Shaman has either multiple implement options or can use Ki foci.

#49

jusmhar

Jun 30, 2010 17:02:11

Yeah, i have that image too for some reason... Was also thinking about the whole swordmage thing and implements in "weapons you are proficient in" Also thinking about adding hammers to weapon proficiencies... yay bludgeoning weapons :3

#50

rampant

Jun 30, 2010 19:10:30

MIght be better to go the bard route there and just make magic weapons that count as implements for D-shaman powers.

#51

jusmhar

Jun 30, 2010 23:08:47

Been working on a bunch of attacks today. May even have up to lv. 2 done with some attacks ready for beyond that. As soon as i get up to lv. 3 or 4 done i want to play test the class, especially the different builds.

#52

rampant

Jul 01, 2010 11:51:47

I wouldn't get too excited about the powers until you have the basic class fleshed out more.

#53

jusmhar

Jul 01, 2010 16:14:34

what do you think still needs work or do you mean the flavor of the class?

EDIT: i noticed i'm missing one more class feature. How's this?

One with Nature
Because of your time spent in the wilds to gain a better understanding of the Dragons, you have also gained a better understand of all life around you. Because of this, you add your charisma modifier to checks made to identify facts about creatures

#54

rampant

Jul 01, 2010 18:03:53

Well Like I said your healing ability is kinda under powered as it stands.

See most healing powers already do that out to much greater range.

And it's not very aura-y.

#55

jusmhar

Jul 01, 2010 18:32:26

yeah, i'm thinking about changing it. Reach of Vitality or something... can't be touch cause it's not melee touch. range 7 or 8. + int mod hp if within the aura. though i am thinking about touch of vitality being a utility.

#56

Namagem

Jul 01, 2010 19:01:24

How about:

Dragon's Vigor
Minor- Aura + 2
Target: you or one ally in aura
Effect: Target spends a healing surge
    Chromatic: One ally in aura gains a +1 to attack rolls (two allies at paragon, three allies at epic)
    Metallic: One ally in aura gains 1d6 extra hit points (two allies at paragon, three allies at epic)
    Catastrophic: One ally in aura may shift (Half Mod) squares as a free action (two allies at paragon, three allies at epic)

Just a suggestion

#57

jusmhar

Jul 01, 2010 19:51:17

hrm... dunno. I know i'm having the default aura differ from build to build, pretty much what Rampant suggested a page or two ago.

#58

rampant

Jul 01, 2010 21:43:19

Here's what I suggest for the healz, two abilities instead of one

Gift of Vitality
one target in close burst 10 cam spend a healing surge to regain HP

Aura of Recovery
whenever an ally within x squares spends a healing surge to regain HP they regain an additional y hp.

#59

jusmhar

Jul 01, 2010 22:20:38

hrm... gift of vitality would be a good just for the default healing feaure. Aura of Recovery is a nice little utility. I'll show my friend and see what we can do. We'll probably use them. Thanks for all the help by the way.

#60

rampant

Jul 01, 2010 23:41:59

My goal here is to provide both the basic healing function of the LEader, but also play up the aura type stuff. Allowing the d-Shammy to heal everyone in a smaller burst proved too problematic, so I figured this was the best way to rig it up. Now you have the ability to heal at a decent range, but still reward allies for healing within your area of influence.

#61

jusmhar

Jul 02, 2010 0:36:57

yeah, i marked aura of recovery as a lv. 2 utility. this is what we got for auras, pretty much based off what you suggested.

Cataclysmic: +2 AC vs. AoO
Chromatic: +2 damage rolls
Metallic: +2 Saving throws

Good? Also, anything else i should focus on fixing before i get back to working on attacks?

EDIT: just updated the central build on the front page to include Hammers under weapon proficiencies, rods under implements, the update to the healing feature, and the auras for the proper builds.

#62

Bera

Jul 02, 2010 3:02:21

OK:

Weapons: Why not give them martial melee weapons in general? If you're giving all hammers and simple melee weapons, you're basically saying the hammer is the iconic weapon of the dragon shaman. Why is that more iconic than swords or spears? You could give distinct builds an additional weapon proficiency, so that different builds have iconic weapons.

Armor: Right now Con/Cha builds have no AC and are likely to be in melee a lot. They need at least chain, if not something better.

Skills: Giving 5 skills is a lot, particularly for a class that doesn't seem like it'd be skill heavy. Dragon Shamans might also need access to Arcana.

Builds: Distinguish between writing class features and sample builds. Also, I'm not a big fan of the chromatic/metallic/catastrophic distinction, but only because I don't know what that's supposed to mean. Which dragons are the hunters, which are kings, which are hoarders and which are forces of nature. Being more descriptive might be helpful.

Aura: I like giving them the aura as a feature, but aura 3 is too small. Doing it as an Aura 5 will put them in line with close-range cleric powers. You could still have feats or powers to temporarily expand the aura. But by giving a default "blank" aura, you have easily modify it by feats. Make sure you read the aura keywords though, you might need to say something about what happens if the dragon shaman is reduced to 0 hp, or whether the aura effects can target the dragon shaman as well.

Vitality: I'd like to see this make more use of the aura feature. Maybe as a Breath of Life, the dragon shaman can distribute the extra healing dice around in the aura, rather than just give them all to one person? Or, make it a close-blast power, and the extra benefits apply to allies within the blast, rather than the aura.

Powers/feats: I'd put these on the backburner for now. You want to develope the class features before you make ways to modify them.

#63

jusmhar

Jul 02, 2010 11:01:18

Weapons: D-Shamans use bludgeoning weapons. They did in 3.5 anyways. I don't think i can just say bludgeoning under weapon proficiency and i don't want the swords from military melee so i put in hammers... i dunno. maybe just Hammers and Maces under weapon proficiencies instead.

Armor: I'm gonna re-add hide armor...

Skills: nature +3 sounds better?

Builds: The different dragon types live different lives and Dragon Shaman tend to be different depending on the type of dragon they worship. I have lots of fluff that differ them, but for space sake, here's the difference. Cataclysmic Dragon Shamans are Leaders who are a bit controllery as well, Chromatic Dragon Shamans are Leaders who are a bit of a striker as well, and Metallic Dragon Shamans are just straight up leaders. If anything, they may flirt with some defendery stuff but not much.

Aura: Damn it, i forgot to edit it. the new Aura is Aura 6 and you can feat into Aura 10

Vitality: i actually have a Touch of Vitality utility. As for breath of life, i have one called Breath of Rejuvination that deals 1d6 + con healing to allies XP. Also got Rampant's Aura of... recovery i think, that adds Con mod to hit points if allies use a healing surge under the aura. Gift of Vitality should also be burst 10, i thought i changed it.

Power/feats: yeah, i am. I'm just trying to finish the one's i started before i get onto more.

#64

rampant

Jul 02, 2010 12:34:34

Ok going back to the warlord a bit.

He has a basic aura (+2 init)

and the build aura (action point attacks get modified based on build)

I was suggesting the Healing aura be a basic aura.

Because the proposed gift of vitality is a weak heal i thought it would be good to provide bonus healing in some manner.

#65

jusmhar

Jul 02, 2010 14:36:03

ok. this is what i'm thinking of now.

Gift of vitality burst 5 (10 at 11, 15 at 21)
allies can spend a healing surge and gain an extra 1d6 + con mod hit points. etc at every five level thing

the Aura of Healing thing
Allies who spend a healing surge under you aura receive temporary hit points equal to your con mod

#66

jusmhar

Jul 08, 2010 17:52:40

bla... it's been kinda slow. We were suppose to test the class monday but my plans changed and we couldn't do it. We feel confident in the core set up of the dragon shaman too, though i had to change implements to "Weapons proficient in," pretty much follow the rules for Swordmage proficiencies. Cause even though i think it would be cool for the dragon shaman to hold a mace in one hand and the implement rod in the other... i'm trying to focus that shields are important too with the class... and if they got a mace in one hand and a shield in the other, how are they gonna hold their rod? so yeah, had to do that change. I've also been sick the past couple days so that's put a damper on my willingness to work on this stuff. I'm starting to get better and i've made some new attacks, including the base for what i want the lv. 29 dailies to be :3 Blue Lightning, Gold Inferno, Blizzard Freeze {temp name}. also got some other stuff done. I have a pdf of the dragon shaman too. I'll upload that somewhere if anyone wants to see, mainly cause i hate how the first post keeps layering.