Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 twobeef Jan 21, 2009 0:01:50	I'm not exactly sure how this happened. I just got to the point a couple of weeks ago where I felt like trying to do my own class update, and this is what's come out of it so far. Not much to say at the immediate moment, other than a general request for feedback. Design theory: Base theories: When D&D4 first came out, a number of people noted that the swashbuckler-type of fighter had essentially been rolled into the rogue class. (This was often noted whenever someone complained that the rogue just wasn't a real rogue anymore.) But there's something different that kinda bugged me about the new rogue - the lack of smarts. Since Intelligence no longer determines the number of skills that a rogue can pick up or his ability to use Improved Feint, there's not much use for an clever rogue anymore, especially not since any bonuses that would be granted by Intelligence would be superceded by the rogue's superior Dexterity. There's an opening in here somewhat to bring back the smart light fighter, the one with "Canny Dodge." And the easiest way to fill that opening may be with a defender class rather than a striker. Since the term "swashbuckler" has been used in tandom with a few rogue abilities, I'm going to take the prestige class definition here and use the term "Duelist" instead - which should more represent the term for a defensive fighter. Let's start from concepts. The "smart duelist" is one of The Three Musketeers, or Iñigo Montoya, or he's the snotty villain who thinks he's the best fighter in the land because he was trained at the Harvard of fencing schools (and then gets beat up by some kid who learned to fight in the streets). He's the fighter with a trick up his sleeve and the patience and agility to make it happen. On the other hand, a duelist might also be more swashbuckler-ish - a Robin Hood, or Jack Sparrow, or Zorro. He's the guy who gets by using the force of his personality and his chaotic nature to best his enemies. That is to say - a Charisma-based fighter, but not so much a thief or assassin. So we've got our three major abilities for the duelist: Intelligence, Charisma, and Dexterity. There's two main ways to implement a character's three abilities. The first manner is that the character has one ability that powers all of his powers and other important aspects of his personality - such as a Fighter's or Warlord's Strength, a Wizard's Intelligence, or a Rogue's Dexterity. The other way is that you give the class the choice of powers backed by one ability or the other - as a cleric can use Strength or Wisdom, a paladin can use Strength or Charisma, a Ranger might use Strength or Dexterity, or a warlock may use Constitution or Charisma. I'm not as big of a fan of the first style since it leads to over-reliance on one ability. But let's face it - there haven't been any martial abilities that use mental attributes as a main ability. All martial classes use Strength as the leading ability, save for the rogue. And, well, if there's only one other class that really uses Dexterity for all of its abilities, then it won't hurt too much to have another Dex-based class. The trick will be making the class not totally reliant on Dex and giving the two side abilities a prominent role (at least as much as the rogue gives Strength and Charisma). Next, we set the general function for a duelist's abilities. Duelists should not be fighters... which is kind of a vague thing to say, since fighters get different abilities to do just about everything. Duelists are a lot like rogues, theoretically. Rogues focus heavily on shifting, additional damage, and status effects (blind, prone, etc.), with a bit of sliding and additional attacks. I don't want duelists to just be rogues with a defensive ability, though. The other class that puts Intellect toward martial abilities are warlords. Warlords focus on granting bonuses to ally attacks, allowing allies to shift, and healing, with a bit of defensive and shift prevention abilities. Duelists aren't leaders, so I don't want a big focus on ally bonuses and healing, but battlefield control - through cleverness (Int), trickery (Cha), and a bit of personal shifting (Dex) - all seem like a good idea for building the class's abilities. I don't want a large focus on personal shifting - duelists should be a hold-your-ground-and-fight class, and shifting around is more the rogue ability. In fact, the "third-tier abilities" of the rogue and warlord should be a good area to work around - sliding enemies, defense of allies, and additional attacks (especially ripostes and parries), with a bit of personal shifting and debuffing. The final thing I'd like to add to the concept is K.I.S.S. - keep it simple, stupid. No seriously deep rules, let's try and keep the class as playable as possible while still being unique. In the attempts to balance the classes below, I'm going to refer to three "common humans," where I build a class's base abilities from 22 points and add +2 to one ability: Common human fighter: 18 Str (9), 14 Con (5), 13 Dex (3), 8 Int (0), 14 Wis (5), 10 Cha. Common smart human duelist: 10 Str (0), 12 Con (2), 18 Dex (9), 16 Int (9), 8 Wis (0), 12 Cha (2). Common charismatic human duelist: 10 Str (0), 12 Con (2), 18 Dex (9), 12 Int (2), 8 Wis (0), 16 Cha (9).
#2 twobeef Jan 21, 2009 0:05:08	Heroic Tier powers and feats: LEVEL 1 AT-WILL EXPLOITS CANNY RIPOSTE As you defend against your opponent's attack, you feint slightly to the side to force an error that gives you an opening for a retort. At-Will ♦ Martial, Weapon Standard Action Melee weapon Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade or scimitar Target: One creature Attack: Dexterity vs. AC Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage. Effect: If the target attacks you or an ally before the start of your next turn and misses, you may deal damage to it equal to your Charisma modifier. Increase damage to 2[W] + Dexterity modifier at 21st level. Design: Rather than comparing it to the rogue's Riposte ability, I would compare this ability to the fighter's Reaping Strike. With the fighter ability, if you hit, it deals 1W + Str, and if you miss, it deals Str damage. With the duelist ability, you deal 1W + Int, and if HE misses, you deal Dex damage. On the one hand, dealing the damage is a bit less predictable than if you'd simply missed, but since your AC is so good, chances are in your favor that the opponent won't be able to hit its target. Question is, should it be a free action or an immediate interrupt, so that it combos with your other interrupt attacks? Seeing as how many other attacks for the duelist are interrupts, the at-will ability should probably be free. Of course, I could also compare it to the rogue's Sly Flourish that just gives you the additional damage directly, both of which have a requirement on weapons. But then, the duelist isn't a striker class, so it's probably fine at this level. GAMBOL STRIKE You attempt to split your attention amongst the foes surrounding you with an array of light strokes. At-Will ♦ Martial, Weapon Standard Action Close burst 1 Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade or scimitar Target: Each enemy in the burst you can see Attack: Dexterity vs. AC Hit: 1[W] damage. Increase damage to 2[W] at 21st level. Design: Burst attacks weren't necessarily part of the style for the duelist, but I wanted an "aggressive" ability that would compliment Vexing Jab as a damage-dealing move. It's also hard to avoid that Cleave is one of a fighter's most useful abilities for its usefulness in taking care of minions. But I don't want to do "Cleave." I originally didn't I want to make this a 1[W] damage ability, since Vexing Jab is already an aggressive ability that deals less than normal damage. Compare the move to a swordmage's Sword Burst, which generally only does 1 damage less than a full 1[W] + Ability damage. But then again, you also don't get to mark every target in the burst with the swordmage's powers, as you do with any target that a duelist attempts to strike. Urgh. 1[W] damage is probably fair. SWEEPING PARRY You swing your blade in wide arcs that cover your side, making it difficult for opponents to land decisive attacks. At-Will ♦ Martial, Weapon Standard Action Melee weapon Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade or scimitar Target: One creature Attack: Dexterity vs. AC Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage. Effect: Once before the beginning of your next turn, when you or an adjacent ally is hit by a weapon attack, you may reduce the damage of that attack by an amount equal to your Intelligence modifier. Increase damage to 2[W] + Dexterity modifier at 21st level. Design: The power here was scrapped once or twice and rebuilt. I originally had this providing a flat +1 AC bonus to you or an ally. Then I decided that I wanted this ability to be powered by the player's Intelligence score, the way that other classes have at-will powers powered by their secondary abilities (rogue's sly flourish, swordmage's greenflame blade, etc.) I spent a lot of time trying to decide just want percentage of your Int modifier would be a fair AC bonus before realizing that it would be easier to just have a sort of rogue's Sly Flourish in reverse. With Sly Flourish, when YOU hit, you deal extra mod damage. With this attack, when THE ENEMY hits, he deals less mod damage. This seems like a cleaner version. Written as preventing against a "weapon attack" so that you could lower the damage of arrows but not magic missiles. VEXING JAB You arrogantly add flourishes and feints to your attack, daring your opponent to lose his composure. At-Will ♦ Martial, Weapon Standard Action Melee weapon Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade or scimitar Target: One creature Attack: Dexterity vs. Will Hit: 1[W] damage, and you slide the target 1 square. You may shift into the space that it moved out of. Increase damage to 2[W] modifier at 21st level. Design: Was looking for a good ability to reflect the general ability of a charismatic duelist to annoy his opponent, and was going to leave this as just Dex vs. Will to deal 1[W] + Dex damage. But I also needed a push/slide ability in the at-will chart somewhere, Dex vs. AC for a slide ability seemed a bit odd. This is the easiest way to push this one, I think, though it should be lowered to 1[W] damage since Will is reliably much lower than AC for most classes.
#3 twobeef Jan 21, 2009 0:12:03	Paragon tier powers: LEVEL 13 ENCOUNTER EXPLOITS FALLING FEATHERS The grace of your combinations belies the depth of your stabs as you aim for the spaces in your enemies' armor. Encounter ♦ Martial, Weapon Standard Action Close burst 1 Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade or scimitar Target: Each enemy you can see in the burst Attack: Dexterity vs. Reflex Hit: 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage. Design: Filling a hole at this slot where a burst or bonus attack would fit. If fighters can get Str + 6 vs. AC for a single attack at this stage, Dex vs. Reflex as a burst should be fine. SHELTERING LUNGE You crouch low and crash up from underneath your enemy's reach, preventing her from following up against your ally. Encounter ♦ Martial, Weapon Standard Action Melee weapon Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade or scimitar Target: One creature Attack: Dexterity vs. AC Hit: 3[W] + Dexterity modifier damage. Effect: One adjacent ally gains a +2 bonus to all defenses against attacks from the target creature. ____Erudite Guard: The ally gains a bonus to defenses equal to your 1 + Intelligence modifier. Design: Somewhat comparable to warlord's Thunderous Fury. Kind of a vanilla move, but not one that I've directly created as an encounter power yet. STOP DROP AND ROLL You drop your guard and stumble just long enough to make your enemy believe he has an opening, which just puts you in a position to slam into the target at the last moment. Encounter ♦ Martial, Weapon Standard Action Close burst 3 Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade or scimitar Target: One creature in the burst Attack: Dexterity vs. Will Hit: You pull the target into the closest square adjacent to you and deal 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage to it. ____Dashing Brigand: The range of the burst is equal to your Charisma modifier. Design: 2[W] damage all right? (2[W] and attacks Will defense instead of 3[W]?) TWIST OF THE WRIST You swing your blade in an intricate pattern and see if your opponent's eyes and grip can keep up. Encounter ♦ Martial, Weapon Standard Action Melee weapon Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade or scimitar Target: One creature Attack: Dexterity vs. Fortitude, Reflex Special: You make one attack roll, and you hit if the roll equals or exceeds any of the three defenses. Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, and the target drops its weapon. It falls in any square of your choice two squares away. If the attack hits both defenses, the weapon falls four squares away instead and you deal an additional 1[W] damage to the target. Design: Adding another disarming trick low enough that it will get used again, borrowing text from the rogue's perfect strike. Fighter's Exorcism of Steel is 2W + Str and disarm, but the weapon lands nearby enough that it can be picked up quickly. I'm tempted to give a penalty to the attack if the target is wielding a two-handed weapon.
#4 twobeef Jan 21, 2009 0:14:26	Epic tier powers: LEVEL 22 UTILITY EXPLOITS BOLD PRESS As you set up your attack, you press into your target and see if he has the grit to stand his ground. At-Will ♦ Martial, Weapon Move Action Melee 1 Target: One creature Attack: Dexterity vs. Will Hit: You push the target 1 square and may shift into an adjacent square. Design: Can I justify this as an at-will power? Warlord's Own the Battlefield slides every enemy in the burst as a daily standard action. This power, though, only works on one target (justify it down to an encounter power), has the chance of failure without allowing you to move (justify it down to an at-will), and only allows a single square of pushing (justify as a move action). ...Or I could just note that iron vanguard's inexorable shift is an automatic push 1 square at level 12 as an encounter power. CANNY REFLEXES You can mentally prepare a combination of responses with only a moment's notice. Encounter ♦ Martial [b]No Action Personal Effect: You may make an additional immediate action before your next turn. Design: WIth so much focus on immediate abilities, I thought the ability to double up might be useful. TWO TO TANGO You pull your partner back as he pulls you forward, placing a different dancer in the lead. At-Will ♦ Martial, Weapon No Action Personal Trigger: An ally shifts or moves into your square. The ally may end his movement in your square. Effect: You shift into the square that ally was last in. Design: Looking for a high-level shifting ability that does more than just "shift your speed once per encounter." This has a nice defender-ish feel to it.
#5 twobeef Jan 21, 2009 0:15:37	PARAGON PATHS HIGH ADVENTURER "Sounds like it'll be dangerous. Just let me finish my wine." Prerequisite: Duelist class You have spent years already on the road. You've fought with a variety of creatures, intelligent and unintelligent, and always managed to come out on top. You've solved crimes and defended the innocent in half the cities in the country, and that blend of experiences has taught you how to improvise for the situation. You've since become addicted to the rush of combat and the glory of victory. You adventure for the sake of the adventuring more than the goal at the end of the quest. Show HIGH ADVENTURER PATH FEATURES DARING METHOD (11th level): When a creature hits you with an attack, you gain a +1 bonus to your next attack roll against it. DARING ACTION (11th level): After rolling your initiative, you may spend an action point to gain an extra action on your first turn and a +5 bonus on the initiative check. Also, at the end of any turn in which you gained an extra action granted by an action point, you regain one duelist encounter power that you used during that turn. DARING OPPORTUNITY (16th level): When you score a critical hit with a light blade or scimitar, the target takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls and is weakened until the end of its next turn. Design: One of the more directly Charisma-inspired paths. Daring method is meant to reflect an eagerness to jump into battle by making the target focus on you. The final ability is meant to suggest "the time you got that great crit right when you needed it and protected people" and such, similar to the Daggermaster path feature - though the daggermaster gets a wider crit range and a special attack when it has combat advantage, so there should be some bonus beyond just a +2 to attack. A common paragon path ability allows you to spend an action point to regain an encounter power that was already used. On its own, the action point ability here is less useful than that, as you may not always use an encounter power during your extra ability. Adding the initiative bonus balances the ability and encourages the player to jump in with an encounter power right away and get the fight started. HIGH ADVENTURER EXPLOITS SKILLFUL PLOY (High Adventurer Attack 11) In need of a break from the action, you eschew standard strikes and quickly improvise a method to confuse your opponent. Encounter ♦ Martial, Weapon Standard Action Melee weapon Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade or scimitar. Target: One creature Attack: Dexterity vs. Will Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage. You may either slide the target 1 square or give the target a -2 penalty to attack rolls until the end of its next turn. ____Dashing Brigand: If you choose to slide the target, the number of squares you can slide it is equal to your Charisma modifier. ____Erudite Guard: If you choose to give the target a penalty, the penalty is equal to 1 + your Intellect modifier. Design: A choice between two 1st-level encounter abilities - similar to rogue Positioning Strike or Warlord guarding attack - as a higher level ability. HERO'S ADVANTAGE (High Adventurer Utility 12) No one's sure if you're really good at rolling with the punches or you were just born under a lucky star. Encounter ♦ Martial Immediate Reaction Personal Trigger: An enemy hits you with a critical hit Effect: Treat the attack as a regular hit (instead of a critical). Design: At level 12, a Kensei would get to reduce any attack by 12 damage once a day. This utility would let you reduce the damage of an attack by 4-8 damage once an encounter (depending on the size of the weapon die), but only on a crit instead of any attack. That should be fairly even. DO-OR-DIE GAMBIT (High Adventurer Daily 20) There's a time to stand your ground and a time to finish the job. Pick your poison. Daily ♦ Martial, Weapon Standard Action Melee weapon Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade or scimitar. Target: One creature Attack: Dexterity vs. AC Hit: 3[W] + Dexterity modifier damage. Miss: Half damage. Effect: You may make a secondary attack against the target. If you do, you grant the target combat advantage until the end of your next turn. If you don't, you gain a +5 bonus to AC until the end of your next turn. ____Secondary Attack: Dexterity vs. AC ____Hit: 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage. ____Miss: Half damage. Design: A few paragon dailies in Martial Power are 4[W] + ability with a fair bonus. The total possible damage is equal to around 6[W] + damage with a penalty. The other bonus should be fine considering many dailies give a +2 AC bonus for the rest of the encounter instead of a larger single-turn bonus.
#6 twobeef Jan 21, 2009 0:17:15	Reserved one more for good measure...
#7 fey_feline Jan 30, 2009 22:14:55	Add leather prof.
#8 twobeef Feb 06, 2009 23:28:27	Three paragon paths posted, thinking on ideas for another three. And begging for a little more feedback, please.
#9 Scars_Unseen Feb 09, 2009 7:33:46	An interesting take on the idea. I am also making a duelist, but instead of a class, I decided to go with a fighter build. When we each complete our version, we should se how they compare(to each other and to other classes/builds). Mine is going to be more of a striker/defender with an emphasis on the first.
#10 jetzine Feb 17, 2009 19:12:33	Dude, this is really good-looking. I too mourn the loss of the intelligence based rogue. I don't like that charisma is always trumping intelligence now for the rogue. Once I get to really dig into this, I'll start posting some feedback. This might provide something more fitting for a character in one of my campaigns. Right off the bat, though, I think I'd like to see a parrying mechanic for this class to call its own. Something to think about. It's very similar to a reflavored fighter right now (at least in terms of the powers I've read so far). There was a duelist article in Dragon waaayyyy back that I loved because it had parrying mechanic that involved opposed attack rolls with the danger of being disarmed. Parrying and disarming is what the duelist is about. There's no ruling on disarming right now. You should try writing it.
#11 twobeef Feb 23, 2009 23:55:33	Thanks for the vote of confidence. Added the other three paragon paths I'd forgotten about. I'm not sure what to say about a "parrying mechanic." The class as I'm envisioning it already has parry mechanics - in getting a baseline bonus to AC just from wielding a weapon and an at-will ability that grants an additional AC bonus. Disarming should really go into the same place that tripping and bluffing has gone - as encounter powers, though I could maybe find more places to bring that mechanic in. I've got a disarming move in the level 3 encounters right now. As for reflavoring of the fighter with the powers... I don't know what to say to that so much in that fighters get to do just about anything at some point, while I've also been borrowing from rogues and warlords for some of the theory behind the class. And in that sense, the swordmage is really just a reflavoring of the fighter, too. So I dunno. I think I like where it's gone from here.
#12 jetzine Feb 24, 2009 20:44:29	"Prepare to Die" is the best thing since the invention of ever.
#13 matthewswift Feb 24, 2009 23:38:58	Zorro, Inigo Montoya, Raphael Sorel, The collective Viera race and I thank you.
#14 bartleby42 Feb 25, 2009 1:21:45	I did a quick skim and the class looks awesome. The only flaw I found on first run through is the +5 to AC may be a little high, especially since the Swashbuckler is a Dex fighter. The +5 to AC when not wearing armor means that your "typical human Swashbucklers" will all start with an AC of 19 (10 + 5 + 4), that's the same as a fighter with scale and a heavy shield, for a fraction of the cost. I understand your intent is to make the Swashbuckler as durable as a fighter, but I think you might be making the swashbuckler too durable. If you make a fighter to deal damage (2 handed weapon) your AC drops to 17, if you make a swashbuckler to deal damage your AC stays at 19. I don't think this is game breaking, but I think it's a small amount of power creep. Also the duelist challenge power seems to be a power creep from the Fighter's challenge. I'd much rather be able to daze my opponent instead of just a melee basic attack. The at wills seem to be in line with the fighters (although the canny riposte seems to be very powerful: 1[W] + dex AND Dex, yes I know the baddy has to miss, but still it's very nice). The class looks very awesome, and maybe it's a little too awesome. I'll have to compare the rest of the abilities with the fighters later, but as of right now, the Swashbuckler seems to be the fighters clear superior.
#15 twobeef Feb 26, 2009 22:50:30	The only flaw I found on first run through is the +5 to AC may be a little high, especially since the Swashbuckler is a Dex fighter. The +5 to AC when not wearing armor means that your "typical human Swashbucklers" will all start with an AC of 19 (10 + 5 + 4), that's the same as a fighter with scale and a heavy shield, for a fraction of the cost. Also the duelist challenge power seems to be a power creep from the Fighter's challenge. I'd much rather be able to daze my opponent instead of just a melee basic attack. The at wills seem to be in line with the fighters (although the canny riposte seems to be very powerful: 1[W] + dex AND Dex, yes I know the baddy has to miss, but still it's very nice). I've gone back and thought about this stuff a bit over the past couple of days. On the AC thing, swordmages would also start out with an AC of 19 - 18 Intellect (+4), leather armor (+2), and the swordmage aura when holding a one-handed weapon (+3). While it's true that scale armor has a price, the swordmage has to give up one of his three base class features to cover the difference. I'd rather my class just wear heavy armor and I have to pay for it, but that I also get the bonus to opportunity attacks that a fighter gets for it. Especially considering that I'm forced to min/max my Intellect to 18 if I want my swordmage to get to that AC. (My poor dwarven swordmage! D: ) If the +5 bonus from the defensive ability really is too much, I'd rather cut away from one of the other side ideas than from that part. And since the swashbuckler doesn't get any versatile or two-handed weapons, you can't make it for damage as easily. And by the way - paladins get heavy shields and PLATE. On the Challenge ability... I started off thinking like this - when you get the chance to use a fighter's challenge ability or a swordmage's aegis, you're either going to hit or miss with your opportunity attack, and your marked opponent is going to either hit or miss with his attack that triggered your attack. That gives you four different outcomes (hit/hit, hit/miss, miss/hit, miss/miss). If you're using the offensive aegis or the fighter challenge, two of the four outcomes allow you to deal damage to the target. If your attack hits, you deal damage whether or not the target misses. If you're using the swordmage's defensive aegis, then you also have two of the four outcomes - whether you hit or miss with your attack (since you don't even roll), you reduce the damage anytime your opponent hits with his attack, but there's no gain if he misses. If I make a challenge for the duelist that requires me to hit with my attack and requires the opponent to miss with his before I get any gain from the challenge, that gives me half as much chance to cause a benefit as the fighter or swordmage gets. However... I realize in thinking about it again that the way I've written it, I get to daze the target anytime I hit and whether or not the target misses... so I've kind of overwritten my own problem that I was having. I'd still like to have some kind of penalty that happens one way or the other, but costing the target a move ability and making him grant CA any time I hit is probably a bit much. So let me make a suggestion - since the defensive ability grants a whole +5 bonus, I'll take out the training feature (the ability to trade damage for hit / trade AC for damage). Instead, the duelist would choose which training option to use as part of the challenge ability, and the challenge will read: Hit: Dexterity vs. AC Effect: If you hit the target, its attack fails. _____Dashing Brigand: If you hit the target, it also takes a -2 penalty to AC until the end of its next turn. _____Erudite Guard: If you hit the target, it also takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls until the end of its next turn. That would also disallow the duelist from trading AC for damage, the way a fighter would in dual'ing his versatile weapon, which would be a substantial disability. (Maybe in exchange you could allow him a +1 hit bonus with short swords like rogues get for daggers?) Canny riposte a bit powerful? Granted, compared to the fighter ability, Reaping Strike... well, Reaping Strike is also one of the better At-Will abilities. Canny riposte also has the downside that the target has to attack you if you want the benefit - if he decides to ignore you and try attacking the wizard instead or moves away, then you lose the extra damage. Though, I've forgotten that the fighter only gets half-strength on a miss with one-handed weapons and not the full modifier. ...Maybe do Int / Cha damage on the riposte instead? Thoughts? (...And now that people are actually reading this thing, I should probably think about finishing the other tiers of abilities. Ugh.)
#16 matthewswift Feb 27, 2009 1:43:41	It sounds like canny riposte gives the foe incentive to back off. Not very defender-ish, more like the rogue's riposte. Might I suggest- a +2 bonus to your next attack against that target. or If the foe shifts you get instant Int damage (like the fighter's reaping, it's auto hurt, but it also gives the enemy an out. That's why I figure a secondary stat may not be enough to keep it sticky. Trouble is Reaping strike doesn't use a secondary either...) or If the enemy attacks an ally you let the ally shift.
#17 twobeef Mar 09, 2009 19:51:47	I'm still working on thinking up ideas for the latter tiers of abilities. In the meantime, I'm making a few edits to the original abilities. I suggested a couple of posts up that I might remove the duelist training in order to balance out the size of the bonus from Combat Expertise, but I'd really prefer to keep some kind of attack bonus intact to allow for a "two-handed" weapon. Instead, I've added a couple of subtle penalties for the two features. Combat Expertise previously gave a +2 bonus in light or no armor, an additional +1 bonus when in no armor, and a +2 bonus for a free off-hand. I've cleaned up the wording a bit to still give the full +5 bonus, but also added a further penalty when armor heavier than leather is worn. Which is to say, there's no bonus for a duelist to take proficiency in hide armor and can thus only take leather proficiency for an AC bonus (just like a fighter can only take scale and a swordmage can only take hide). I also slightly reworded the duelist training abilities to be a bit less easy to use. Activating the "stance" now requires a minor action (like a ranger's hunter's quarry). The Brigand ability was reworded to read like the bonus for a versatile weapon so that the damage won't stack up, and the Guard bonus reduces the size of your damage die so as to reduce damage more for encounter powers and such. Finally, I made the alteration to the duelist challenge as described a couple of posts up to be a bit less overwhelming. Show Combat Expertise While you are conscious and wielding either a light blade or a scimitar in your main hand, you turn your narrow side to your target and use your sword to cover yourself. While unarmored (or wearing cloth armor), you gain a +3 bonus to AC. When your off-hand is free or holding an off-hand weapon, you gain an additional +2 bonus to AC, for a total bonus of +5. Your parrying ability relies on mobility and flexibility and is restricted by armor. If you are wearing leather armor, reduce the AC bonus by 1, and if wearing any other armor, reduce the bonus by 2. Duelist Training A duelist's training allows him to temporarily take up a stance that alters the way he wields his weapon. You can spend a minor action to enter or drop your chosen stance. To determine the bonus that you gain in this stance, choose one of the following options: Dashing Brigand: You deal an extra 1 point of damage when you roll damage for your weapon, but you take a -2 penalty to AC. Erudite Guard: You gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls, but you decrease your weapon's damage die by one size. You do not gain this bonus for attacks that deal no damage (such as the duelist challenge power). The choice you make represents your fighting style and upbringing and also provides a bonus to your duelist challenge, as well as other duelist powers. Individual powers detail the effects (if any) your Duelist Training selection has on them. DUELIST CHALLENGE While your target isn't focusing on you, you elbow him in the face, trip up one of his feet, or scream in his ear. At-Will ♦ Martial, Weapon Immediate Interrupt Close burst 1 Trigger: A creature in the burst that you have marked makes an attack that doesn't include you as a target Target: The attacking creature Attack: Dexterity vs. AC Hit: The target's attack fails. ____Dashing Brigand: The target also takes a -2 penalty to AC until the end of its next turn. ____Erudite Guard: The target also takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls until the end of its next turn.
#18 bartleby42 Mar 10, 2009 23:05:15	I've gone back and thought about this stuff a bit over the past couple of days. On the AC thing, swordmages would also start out with an AC of 19 - 18 Intellect (+4), leather armor (+2), and the swordmage aura when holding a one-handed weapon (+3). While it's true that scale armor has a price, the swordmage has to give up one of his three base class features to cover the difference. I'd rather my class just wear heavy armor and I have to pay for it, but that I also get the bonus to opportunity attacks that a fighter gets for it. Especially considering that I'm forced to min/max my Intellect to 18 if I want my swordmage to get to that AC. (My poor dwarven swordmage! D: ) If the +5 bonus from the defensive ability really is too much, I'd rather cut away from one of the other side ideas than from that part. And since the swashbuckler doesn't get any versatile or two-handed weapons, you can't make it for damage as easily. And by the way - paladins get heavy shields and PLATE. I think the issue here is you don't have to make a choice. You automatically get the AC of a fighter in scale with a shield, and you have the best damage dealing weapons for your class equipped. That's a little much for me. If you worried about how "squishy" your Duelist will be why not try a +3. Remeber there are feats like 2 weapon defense that will help a Duelist's AC, but when you first start out there is a clear stratta in Defender AC, Pallies, fighters than Duelists. The problem I'm seeing is the lack of a trade off, as a duelist you get really high AC for free, and you can do damage easily. You don't have the choice other defenders have about whether or not to shield up. The duelist doesn't have that choice. As to the new challenge. I like it, it has it's own flavor, and seems to be in line with the other challenge powers. Canny riposte a bit powerful? Granted, compared to the fighter ability, Reaping Strike... well, Reaping Strike is also one of the better At-Will abilities. Canny riposte also has the downside that the target has to attack you if you want the benefit - if he decides to ignore you and try attacking the wizard instead or moves away, then you lose the extra damage. Though, I've forgotten that the fighter only gets half-strength on a miss with one-handed weapons and not the full modifier. ...Maybe do Int / Cha damage on the riposte instead? Thoughts? I think I like the idea of a trade-off power, you deal 1[w] damage and if the target misses it's next attack it is [status effect] until the end of your next turn. The question is what should the status effect be? Slowed seems a little weak, and dazed seems crazy powerful. I'll have to think on it.
#19 twobeef Mar 11, 2009 0:16:43	You automatically get the AC of a fighter in scale with a shield, and you have the best damage dealing weapons for your class equipped. That's a little much for me. Again, though, I have to pay for it. Fighters get a challenge power, a flat +1 bonus to their favorite hand-size of weapon, and a bonus to opportunity attacks. Duelists get a challenge power, a bonus to initiative and Will of about half-a-feat each, and a feature that only brings them up to the same amount of AC that most fighters get (and as I have it now, a chance to trade AC for damage or damage for hit). Y'know, if I had to choose between the two lists of features on equal ground, I'd much rather have the fighter list, even if it means I have to wake up and put my armor on in the morning. What the duelist would make up for that in that less armor proficiency and a restrictive weapon policy is an expanded skill list. And again, no versatile or two-handed weapons means you don't get the choice between a full scale-and-board fighter or a 2H fighter until you factor in the training feat, which can knock your AC down to the 2H fighter's level. I still don't think that's so overpowered by those means. If the class still feels too strong by comparison, I'd much rather water down or remove the training power before taking down the AC bonus. Or knock off one of the skills and healing surges might be more fair, perhaps. Looking at it again, in fact, I notice that swordmages get a surge less than fighters do. I could maybe be tempted to take a point off of the AC bonus on the theory that Two-Weapon Defense exists and that the AC scales with Dex, but that also forces Duelists into a two-weapon role to keep up with feats-wise, or forces them to get into hide armor in order to take the armor specialization feat at paragon tier. And there seems to be enough belief that the swordmage is balanced even though it scales with Int. I just don't buy this theory about how you have to choose to bring a shield if you're a fighter. A one-handed fighter brings a versatile weapon and a shield, and when he feels like going to extra damage, he drops the shield back in the rack and goes two-handed. The 2H fighter doesn't bring the shield but gets the benefit of High Crit for wielding a greatsword. I'm gonna go for taking a surge and a skill out (down to 8 and 4 respectively), and maybe someday I'll actually get around to testing the class out live and figure it out, but I don't mind erring a bit on the side of underpowered instead of overpowered if I'm not fully sure one way or the other. Now, you think that mess is crazy, you should see the Warden preview. D: I think I like the idea of a trade-off power, you deal 1[w] damage and if the target misses it's next attack it is [status effect] until the end of your next turn. I would really rather keep that power as a bonus damage ability, on account of there isn't currently any other at-will for doing added damage to a single target (a la Reaping Strike, Holy Strike, Booming Blade). Another thing I've noticed re-reading some things is that generally when a class has one main attribute and two possible subordinate attributes, there's one at-will power that gets its bonuses from each of the subordinate abilities. (e.g. Swordmage's Booming Blade for Con and Greenflame Blade for Str, Rogue's Riposte Strike for Str and Sly Flourish for Cha.) I've modified Canny Riposte and Sweeping Parry slightly to benefit from Cha and Int directly and thus put a bit more emphasis on keeping the secondary ability mods up in strength.
#20 twobeef Mar 15, 2009 0:53:17	I'm maybe still in need of a utility power or two at the 16th level, but top tiers of powers are mostly done for now. It's almost like I'm finished with this thing...
#21 rauru Apr 14, 2011 12:18:38	The only negative thing I can find about the class is that it is a cloth-armor Defender. This will put a serious cramp on it's durability. I would suggest giving it proficiency with leather, hide, and possibly even chainmail.
#22 aoirorentsu May 06, 2011 19:21:11	Actually, Rauru, the class would have one of the best ACs of defenders - they have a class feature that gives them a flat +5 to their AC if they're in cloth armor and have a hand free, and because they're in light or no armor they'll get their Dexterity bonus (which will be their highest because Dex is the duelist's primary, so it will also scale well with level bumps) as well.  Add in the unarmored agility feat (+2 to AC), and things will get ridiculous... but, you know, in a good way... unless you're trying to hit the duelist. Awesome class... neuroglpyh games has been having a series comparing the existing defenders on a variety of criteria for fulfilling that role, specifically: HP & surges; Armor and defenses; marking and retribution; damage resistance & reduction powers; powers granting temporary hit points; powers granting regeneration/self-healing/healing surges; powers granting increased attack/defense ratings; granting damage reduction/resistance to allies; powers granting temp hp to allies; granting healing/surges; interposing/redirecting enemy attacks; powers granting saves/removing conditions; powers granting increased defenses to allies. It would be interesting to try to classify the duelist in this rubric.
#23 dalahse Apr 19, 2012 16:21:01	I haven't finish all the exploits, but I like this class very much. Very realistic it is, though a little too strong the AC might be, I guess.          Translate it into Chinese and share it on forums may I?