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4e Easier Multiclassing

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
fponkdamn
Jun 25, 2009 19:10:08 So, I think multiclassing in 4e is a tad prohibitive. Based on two assumptions:

1. The defining aspect of your class are your class abilities, not your powers. You're not a fighter without combat challenge, you're not a warlock without Curse, etc.

and

2. The powers between classes are relatively balanced, i.e. a level 5 Barbarian daily is not too much more or less "powerful" than a level 5 Invoker daily, they just do different things.

So, you spend a LOT of feats, without gaining more powers, just taking different ones. I understand the motivation behind this rule, but I think for my campaign I might make it a little easier. If a cool power in another class fits your roleplaying idea or even just your build preference, I don't want it to be so horrible to even think of taking.

Here is my proposed change: the "initiate" feats are the only ones there are. You no longer need to take Novice Power, etc. Once you take the feat that makes you a Wizard, you can just take Wizard powers anytime you could pick a new power.

It still costs you a feat, which is a heavy penalty in any optimized build, but it lets you get more creative with your power selections (and allows multiclassing earlier, which I would like to see). It doesn't cost you FOUR feats and your paragon path choice to multiclass.

Thoughts? I happen to like it, and may implement it in my campaign, but I'm eager to hear the community's thoughts.

- Johnny
#2
tylara67
Jun 25, 2009 22:51:52 You might consider limiting power swapping to one per type from the class you're multi-classed into: in other words, if a fighter multiclassed into cleric, he could take cleric powers but he could never have more than 1 cleric encounter power, more than 1 cleric daily power, or more than 1 cleric utility power. Swapping at-wills is very powerful, and should probably stay limited to paragon multi-classing (which under your rules only requires 1 feat and giving up a PP, rather than 4 feats and giving up a PP).

Also, you should note that WotC agrees with you and is working on an alternative to multi-classing: hybrid characters. They've released playtest articles for them in DDI and are planning to launch them officially in PH3.
#3
Stuntman
Jun 25, 2009 23:47:18 It is not entirely true that powers are all more or less equal between classes. The wizard class is considered to have better powers that most other classes. Also, much of what makes a wizard a controller is in the powers rather than the class features. If you look at the Initiate feat, what you get is not a class feature, but a power. If you allowed power swapping without taking power swap feats, the first thing I would do if I want to multiclass into a wizard is to swap a daily power right off the bat.

If you allow multiclassing this way, players will be looking for a class with good class features and multiclass with a class with good powers.
#4
meteoric
Jun 26, 2009 1:08:04 It might be worth noting that even in a very optimized build, a multiclass feat is not really a penalty at all, since it gives you training in a skill and another benefit.

I'd still limit it to one power of each category from your second class, because otherwise silly things could happen, but with that caveat I doubt it could be very unbalanced; after all, you won't be able to do anything you can't do under the current system, it just costs fewer feats.

I say go ahead and try it, see how it works. Be sure to come back and tell us about it
#5
Shamanstarr
Jun 26, 2009 17:11:16 In actuality, the 3.x version of multiclassing could work in 4e without too unbalancing the game. Just like in older editions, giving up level advancement in one class to go up in another is its own limiter. The only thing I would say is, characters multi-classed this way would either not get At-wills for new classes picked up in thi fashion, or would have to trade out at-will powers instead. Would work as follows:

1st Class grants your skill choices, at-will powers, and level appropriate powers from Encounter, Daily, and Utility brackets. Class features are also acquired fully.
picking up a 2nd class at 2nd level, you gain 1 Skill trained for that class, but granting only a +3, not a +5 for being trained. You can swap out 1 At-Will power for one of the new class, and gain all class features of the new class. You gain powers depending on which class you go up in each level, just like 3.x edition. Limit to only 2 classes using this method however, as otherwise, you could just have 1st level in every class, and thus have many more Daily and Encountewr powers than the other characters.
Hitpoints per level are added for the new class, when it's acquired, and at each level, but healing surges base becomes the better of the two classes. Now, when the neew class is picked up, there could be a slight advantage in that you are gaining both a Daily and a new Encounter power, but after that, you tend to level out.

Just a thought,

Seuss
#6
amthyst_fire
Jun 26, 2009 17:33:46
Limit to only 2 classes using this method however, as otherwise, you could just have 1st level in every class, and thus have many more Daily and Encounter[sic] powers than the other characters.

The characters would still be subject to the 2/2/1/1(4th level, i.e.) limit of the number of powers they can have "Out" at a time, same way Wizards are. (it has for us as yet, only come up with the Wizard, who has Expanded Spellbook)

If they want all level 1 powers that's on them.
#7
Shamanstarr
Jun 26, 2009 17:45:31 I did think about putting in the # of powers available rule in like that, so you do the spell book kinda thing, otherwise, a level 4 that was evenly split (2/2) would actually have 2/2/2/2, 2 At-wills, either class, 1 Encounter for each class, 1 Daily for each class, 1 Utility for each class. You could keep the total balance by using the Slot rule though. Could run it fast and loose, where you have all the various Dailies available, but can only use the number of slot dailies as indicated on Pg 29 of the PHB. That would balance it out quite well. I may playtest this sometime and see how it works.

Seuss
#8
fponkdamn
Jun 26, 2009 21:59:59 See, I'm definitely not out to do anything that complicated. I really do want to keep the classes "intact" in the sense that if you're a fighter, you're a fighter - you won't get full access to healing word, sneak attack, wild shape, or the like. But on a power-for-power basis, if there's something that meets your fancy, I'd like you to be able to take it. That's it.

I just feel that in the current system, you give up far more than you gain for multiclassing. If you're a fighter, and you multiclass into barbarian, you don't end up with anything a barbarian couldn't have had - but you are down 4 feats, and maybe a paragon path choice.

I'd like it to be an option on the table, without the cost being quite so steep. I'll offer it to my players next session, and see how they react. I'll let you know!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 fponkdamn Jun 25, 2009 19:10:08	So, I think multiclassing in 4e is a tad prohibitive. Based on two assumptions: 1. The defining aspect of your class are your class abilities, not your powers. You're not a fighter without combat challenge, you're not a warlock without Curse, etc. and 2. The powers between classes are relatively balanced, i.e. a level 5 Barbarian daily is not too much more or less "powerful" than a level 5 Invoker daily, they just do different things. So, you spend a LOT of feats, without gaining more powers, just taking different ones. I understand the motivation behind this rule, but I think for my campaign I might make it a little easier. If a cool power in another class fits your roleplaying idea or even just your build preference, I don't want it to be so horrible to even think of taking. Here is my proposed change: the "initiate" feats are the only ones there are. You no longer need to take Novice Power, etc. Once you take the feat that makes you a Wizard, you can just take Wizard powers anytime you could pick a new power. It still costs you a feat, which is a heavy penalty in any optimized build, but it lets you get more creative with your power selections (and allows multiclassing earlier, which I would like to see). It doesn't cost you FOUR feats and your paragon path choice to multiclass. Thoughts? I happen to like it, and may implement it in my campaign, but I'm eager to hear the community's thoughts. - Johnny
#2 tylara67 Jun 25, 2009 22:51:52	You might consider limiting power swapping to one per type from the class you're multi-classed into: in other words, if a fighter multiclassed into cleric, he could take cleric powers but he could never have more than 1 cleric encounter power, more than 1 cleric daily power, or more than 1 cleric utility power. Swapping at-wills is very powerful, and should probably stay limited to paragon multi-classing (which under your rules only requires 1 feat and giving up a PP, rather than 4 feats and giving up a PP). Also, you should note that WotC agrees with you and is working on an alternative to multi-classing: hybrid characters. They've released playtest articles for them in DDI and are planning to launch them officially in PH3.
#3 Stuntman Jun 25, 2009 23:47:18	It is not entirely true that powers are all more or less equal between classes. The wizard class is considered to have better powers that most other classes. Also, much of what makes a wizard a controller is in the powers rather than the class features. If you look at the Initiate feat, what you get is not a class feature, but a power. If you allowed power swapping without taking power swap feats, the first thing I would do if I want to multiclass into a wizard is to swap a daily power right off the bat. If you allow multiclassing this way, players will be looking for a class with good class features and multiclass with a class with good powers.
#4 meteoric Jun 26, 2009 1:08:04	It might be worth noting that even in a very optimized build, a multiclass feat is not really a penalty at all, since it gives you training in a skill and another benefit. I'd still limit it to one power of each category from your second class, because otherwise silly things could happen, but with that caveat I doubt it could be very unbalanced; after all, you won't be able to do anything you can't do under the current system, it just costs fewer feats. I say go ahead and try it, see how it works. Be sure to come back and tell us about it
#5 Shamanstarr Jun 26, 2009 17:11:16	In actuality, the 3.x version of multiclassing could work in 4e without too unbalancing the game. Just like in older editions, giving up level advancement in one class to go up in another is its own limiter. The only thing I would say is, characters multi-classed this way would either not get At-wills for new classes picked up in thi fashion, or would have to trade out at-will powers instead. Would work as follows: 1st Class grants your skill choices, at-will powers, and level appropriate powers from Encounter, Daily, and Utility brackets. Class features are also acquired fully. picking up a 2nd class at 2nd level, you gain 1 Skill trained for that class, but granting only a +3, not a +5 for being trained. You can swap out 1 At-Will power for one of the new class, and gain all class features of the new class. You gain powers depending on which class you go up in each level, just like 3.x edition. Limit to only 2 classes using this method however, as otherwise, you could just have 1st level in every class, and thus have many more Daily and Encountewr powers than the other characters. Hitpoints per level are added for the new class, when it's acquired, and at each level, but healing surges base becomes the better of the two classes. Now, when the neew class is picked up, there could be a slight advantage in that you are gaining both a Daily and a new Encounter power, but after that, you tend to level out. Just a thought, Seuss
#6 amthyst_fire Jun 26, 2009 17:33:46	Limit to only 2 classes using this method however, as otherwise, you could just have 1st level in every class, and thus have many more Daily and Encounter[sic] powers than the other characters. The characters would still be subject to the 2/2/1/1(4th level, i.e.) limit of the number of powers they can have "Out" at a time, same way Wizards are. (it has for us as yet, only come up with the Wizard, who has Expanded Spellbook) If they want all level 1 powers that's on them.
#7 Shamanstarr Jun 26, 2009 17:45:31	I did think about putting in the # of powers available rule in like that, so you do the spell book kinda thing, otherwise, a level 4 that was evenly split (2/2) would actually have 2/2/2/2, 2 At-wills, either class, 1 Encounter for each class, 1 Daily for each class, 1 Utility for each class. You could keep the total balance by using the Slot rule though. Could run it fast and loose, where you have all the various Dailies available, but can only use the number of slot dailies as indicated on Pg 29 of the PHB. That would balance it out quite well. I may playtest this sometime and see how it works. Seuss
#8 fponkdamn Jun 26, 2009 21:59:59	See, I'm definitely not out to do anything that complicated. I really do want to keep the classes "intact" in the sense that if you're a fighter, you're a fighter - you won't get full access to healing word, sneak attack, wild shape, or the like. But on a power-for-power basis, if there's something that meets your fancy, I'd like you to be able to take it. That's it. I just feel that in the current system, you give up far more than you gain for multiclassing. If you're a fighter, and you multiclass into barbarian, you don't end up with anything a barbarian couldn't have had - but you are down 4 feats, and maybe a paragon path choice. I'd like it to be an option on the table, without the cost being quite so steep. I'll offer it to my players next session, and see how they react. I'll let you know!