Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 survivormanss Sep 10, 2009 21:44:22	How would this be done?      Because I love 4E, and at first I was really excited that all classes get all these powers and stuff. But...now it seems like overkill. I know this is a huge part of 4E that I am talking about not using, but my players don't use their powers anyway. And there is just nothing special about being a wizard now.    I don't know if anybody knows what i'm talking about, but in 3.5, I loved how the wizard had its own special thing. It got to choose spells, memorize them, all this cool stuff. It was just cool. I think the 4E developers saw this, and gave every class something similiar to spells. Even though this is fun, and some people might love it, it just bothers me that the only thing seperating a fighter and a wizard is the roles, and the power source, which are nothing but fluff.    I'm just wondering if anybody had any ideas about a way to keep it atleast sort of balanced, and possibly add some special things that are for the rogue in particular, or the fighter in particular, if you know what I mean.    NOTE: I don't know if any of this is possible, or if anybody cares, I just posted it to see if anybody maybe thought the same way or had any ideas or just to tell me i'm an idiot and its impossible.
#2 magus_stragus Sep 10, 2009 23:17:34	Play 3.5. Really, your idea doesn't fit well in 4, as the classes are balanced around their powers (well, and their class features). A class with no powers at all is going to stay behind the rest. Even if you give some sort of bonus, like more damage, they just won't make it.
#3 Rustmonster Sep 10, 2009 23:28:58	Sweet, so Fighters get to basic attack over and over while Wizards get to be oh so special again. Wonderful. If you honestly can't see differences between Wizards and Fighters other than power source and role, then I don't know what to say to you. Have you actually seen how different their powers are? Wizards are still special, with one of the most diverse and useful range of abilities in the game, not to mention unmatched versitility. Removing the Fighter's unique abilities and any chance they have of being useful or interesting just so your Wizards can be special overpowered snowflakes like they were before is not going to make the game any more fun.
#4 magus_stragus Sep 11, 2009 0:17:53	What you can do is, however, change some of the aspects of each power source (I worked on this some time ago). Like, let the arcane users have one extra daily in exchange of one encounter power, and give martial characters one less daily but let them power up their at-wills (like the psion class). Things like that will make your wizard and fighter different again.
#5 pluisjen Sep 11, 2009 1:22:44	Play 3.5. Really, your idea doesn't fit well in 4, as the classes are balanced around their powers (well, and their class features). A class with no powers at all is going to stay behind the rest. Even if you give some sort of bonus, like more damage, they just won't make it. This, really.
#6 salla Sep 11, 2009 1:25:19	Sweet, so Fighters get to basic attack over and over while Wizards get to be oh so special again. Wonderful. If you honestly can't see differences between Wizards and Fighters other than power source and role, then I don't know what to say to you. Have you actually seen how different their powers are? Wizards are still special, with one of the most diverse and useful range of abilities in the game, not to mention unmatched versitility. Removing the Fighter's unique abilities and any chance they have of being useful or interesting just so your Wizards can be special overpowered snowflakes like they were before is not going to make the game any more fun. What he said.
#7 PrimeSonic Sep 11, 2009 1:36:56	What you can do is, however, change some of the aspects of each power source (I worked on this some time ago). Like, let the arcane users have one extra daily in exchange of one encounter power, and give martial characters one less daily but let them power up their at-wills (like the psion class). Things like that will make your wizard and fighter different again. Don't bother. He'll be better off playing 3.5 or Pathfinder. Better to use a system that already gives him what he wants than to horribly break a system that works just fine.
#8 DanTracker Sep 11, 2009 7:06:37	...      Because I love 4E, ... but my players don't use their powers anyway. And there is just nothing special about being a wizard now.    ... tell more about what you love about 4e. why do you love it? what areas do you love? if your players are not using their powers at all, teach them more about using their powers. encourage the use of powers. (i gave extra 75 XP the first time my Dborn player used breath weapon, just to encourage him to use it more. 50 the second time, 30 the third, 20 the fourth ... now 5 each time.) there is plenty special about being a wizard, but there is much more special about each and every class and role now. in fact, understanding the role is key to enjoying your player. i've got a druid that always loved druids, but hates the controller role. limited damage and all sorts of effects and forced movement to keep track of? she doesn't like it. she's abotu ready to make a barbarian and get back to huge damage. i know she doesn't care abotu wild shape cause she doesn't use wild shape. so, if you love 4e, but your players are not using the powers, teach them to really fill out the edges of there little world. honestly, fighter has fantastic tactical use. i've got a fighter that loves his challenge and combat superiority. if you take away the powers, then you've got no reason to understand and occupy a role in a party. you could just make a character that uses jack-of-all trades feat, balances ability scores and uses proficiency of every weapon feat (non-existant) so that he can pretty much do anything.   *honestly, if this is in fact the issue [powers take away form being a wizard and the players don't use them anyway] then downgrade to 3.5 or switch away to pathfinder, as suggested by another poster.
#9 veritascitor Sep 11, 2009 18:12:22	... but my players don't use their powers anyway... ...and possibly add some special things that are for the rogue in particular, or the fighter in particular, if you know what I mean... What ARE they using, then?  Basic attacks?  Note that there's never any reason to use a basic attack except for an opportunity attack.  Powers are always better, even if they're just the same damage but with an added bonus or status effect.  If you're players aren't using their powers, then they're playing 4E entirely wrong. :S As for "special things" for each of that classes, that's what the powers are.  Special abilities, aside from a few class features (like sneak attack or combat challenge) are now integrated into powers.  You define your character's abilities by the powers that you choose.
#10 Tony_Vargas Sep 11, 2009 20:44:56	It's easy, actually.  Just ban the martial power source (well, I mean the Martial classes - everyone can keep thier basic attacks).   In order to be of heroic caliber in your campaign, PCs would have to draw from the ranks of the Arcane, Divine, and Primal (and psionic, if you think it fits).  This gives you a setting like Ars Magica, where PCs were all mages, and mundane types were NPC helpers.  Anyone not wanting to play a 'caster' could always play a Barbarian or STR-based Paladin or maybe even Avenger, and still concentrate on weapon attacks. Should be perfectly workable.
#11 jailbreaker Sep 12, 2009 14:44:42	Play 3.5. Really, your idea doesn't fit well in 4, as the classes are balanced around their powers (well, and their class features). A class with no powers at all is going to stay behind the rest. Even if you give some sort of bonus, like more damage, they just won't make it. This, really.
#12 Damon_Tor Sep 12, 2009 15:13:27	I'm just wondering if anybody had any ideas about a way to keep it atleast sort of balanced, and possibly add some special things that are for the rogue in particular, or the fighter in particular, if you know what I mean. Make it so that instead of getting spells at different level, let them get different kind of melee attacks, that maybe have different sorts of effects, or do better damage.
#13 warcolonel Sep 12, 2009 15:25:55	I'm just wondering if anybody had any ideas about a way to keep it atleast sort of balanced, and possibly add some special things that are for the rogue in particular, or the fighter in particular, if you know what I mean. Make it so that instead of getting spells at different level, let them get different kind of melee attacks, that maybe have different sorts of effects, or do better damage. That sounds like a bunch of at-will powers.
#14 Rustmonster Sep 12, 2009 20:00:15	That sounds like a bunch of at-will powers. Yes, that was the joke.
#15 tyrrell Sep 12, 2009 21:42:07	It's easy, actually.  Just ban the martial power source (well, I mean the Martial classes - everyone can keep thier basic attacks).   In order to be of heroic caliber in your campaign, PCs would have to draw from the ranks of the Arcane, Divine, and Primal (and psionic, if you think it fits).  This gives you a setting like Ars Magica, where PCs were all mages, and mundane types were NPC helpers. A fine idea for a game but a poor charcterization of Ars Magica, Companions and grogs are just as much PC's as magi.
#16 survivormanss Sep 12, 2009 22:28:53	Okay, now I feel really bad for using up space. Has anybody ever gotten a GREAT idea at 3:00 am. Yeah that's what gave birth to this thread. Sorry for my impulsive behavior, from now on i'll wait until the next day to post, and see if my idea is still as great. I'll delete this, sorry for wasting your time.
#17 Qube Sep 13, 2009 4:51:56	Suggestion: (at will/encounter/daily) Spellcasters: instead of (2/1/1) at lvl 1 you give them (1/0/3) instead of (2/4/4) at high level  you give them (1/1/7) favor daily utilities over encounter utilities Non-Spellcasters: instead of (2/1/1) at lvl 1 you give them (4/1/0) instead of (2/4/4) at high level  you give them (4/4/2) favor at-will and encounter utilities over daily utilities
#18 bone_naga Sep 13, 2009 14:48:32	You could always point out that wizards are the only ones with the flexibility of a spellbook, not to mention that while the powers are balanced with each other, wizards consume their enemies with fire from their eyes, and bolts of lightning from their arse.  Fighters are cool, but their powers involve hitting things harder, or hitting things better, while wizards still bend reality.
#19 undrave Sep 15, 2009 1:46:10	Okay, now I feel really bad for using up space. Has anybody ever gotten a GREAT idea at 3:00 am. Yeah that's what gave birth to this thread. Sorry for my impulsive behavior, from now on i'll wait until the next day to post, and see if my idea is still as great. I'll delete this, sorry for wasting your time. Hey if anything you at least get points for being a fan of Survivorman :p so I'm sure you can't be that bad of a fella. I also would like some clarification on your statement that your players don't use their powers.