Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 lord_herman_02 Apr 29, 2009 6:09:00	One of my players asked me if he could have a feat that increased the penalty his marks imposed on his enemies' attack rolls. I'm not a balance expert, but I figured an extra -1 penalty would be about right. So here's what I was thinking: IMPROVED MARK Prerequisite: 11th level Benefit: The penalty your mark imposes on the target's attack rolls increases to -3. At 21st level, the penalty further increases to -4. What do you guys think? Is this balanced? Should it be one feat, or should the increase at epic level be a seperate epic feat?
#2 tylara67 Apr 29, 2009 8:51:55	Definitely overpowered. Consider that the only other feat that does something like this is an epic-tier feat for swordmages that makes their mark -3, but only if they charge the foe when they mark it. It also only marks one foe; normally when a swordmage marks enemies at epic tier they can mark every enemy in a burst 2 (or even larger for some PPs).
#3 lord_herman_02 Apr 29, 2009 10:09:42	Egads, you're right! I hadn't read that feat yet. I guess that means there's no way to make a balanced feat that increases the mark penalty, unless it's highly circumstantial. Thanks for pointing it out.
#4 DragonsWrath Apr 29, 2009 10:19:31	Not so fast! Fighters already have a Paragon feat that increases the mark to a -3! See Daunting Challenge, from Martial Power Now, adding a homebrew bonus at Epic may be interesting, but I wouldn't make it a flat -4. perhaps -4 if you only have one creature marked? Perhaps -4 if you have used all dailies? Something like that.
#5 lord_herman_02 Apr 29, 2009 11:16:51	Okay, that changes things. The player in question plays a swordmage, though, so he doesn't qualify for that feat. But at least it means increasing the mark to -3 is something that's possible in paragon tier. The reason he wants to improve his marking ability is because he wants to keep multiple enemies tied up, but he can only use his aegis ability once per round. He figured that if the mark itself had a greater effect, the creatures he's marked wouldn't be so quick to attack the squishies instead.
#6 manxomefoe Apr 29, 2009 11:30:34	Seems to me like almost any bonus to the marking power is ok, since right now its pretty silly. Marking only matters if the Defender's AC is within one of the other characters. I.e. if the Defender's AC is 24 , unless the Wizard's AC is 23 or higher, marking doesn't matter. The abilities of fighters and paladins just don't stack up to the damage a creature can do by ignoring a mark. Wardens are much better, but on whole, going for a -3 or even a -4 at heroic is not overpowered.
#7 erk_ Apr 29, 2009 14:00:04	Seems to me like almost any bonus to the marking power is ok, since right now its pretty silly. Except even if the enemy does 'ignore' the mark, you've still granted every ally but you a +2 to all defenses against that enemy. That is also defending, in a very literal sense; the mark serves more purposes than just encouraging the enemy to focus on you. I would suggest, rather than changing the value of the mark, something like "Brash Mark": When making a mark, you may choose to grant the marked creature a +1 to attacks against you as well. You may increase this bonus to +2 at paragon tier, and +3 at epic. Effect: encourages monster to ignore squishies, but doesn't improve the mark in any "on the side" way.
#8 lord_herman_02 Apr 29, 2009 14:48:09	Hmm... it doesn't seem right to me to need a feat to voluntarily lower your defences. That said, it has given me an idea. What about a power attack-like feat, only for marks? For example: BRASH MARK Effect: On your turn, as a free action, you may choose to take a -2 penalty to all defences until the beginning of your next turn. If you do, creatures marked by you take a -3 penalty to attack rolls when attacking a creature other than you, instead of the usual -2. The mark penalty increases to -4 at 11th level, and -5 at 21th level.
#9 erk_ Apr 29, 2009 14:58:10	Hmm... it doesn't seem right to me to need a feat to voluntarily lower your defences. Good point, but I don't think it should be a written-in option either. Perhaps don't consider it lowering your defenses so much as carefully granting only one enemy an opening. Call it "Luring Mark"? BRASH MARK Effect: On your turn, as a free action, you may choose to take a -2 penalty to all defences until the beginning of your next turn. If you do, creatures marked by you take a -3 penalty to attack rolls when attacking a creature other than you, instead of the usual -2. The mark penalty increases to -4 at 11th level, and -5 at 21th level. Gets very powerful though: this makes your mark unbelievably sticky, because there's a 5 to 7 point difference between you and your allies now.
#10 lord_herman_02 Apr 29, 2009 15:18:12	Now that I think of it, the mark penalty doesn't even have to increase with paragon and epic tier. Power Attack's damage bonus increases to remain significant in higher-tier play, but bonuses/penalties d20 rolls don't have to scale. Then again, if it's a -2 penalty to defences for -3 mark penalty, it's clearly worse than Daunting Challenge, which gives the -3 mark penalty for free. Maybe the mark penalty Brash Mark gives should be -4 at all levels? That's a 6 point difference; quite a large gap, but it does leave the character open to attack from all enemies, not just the marked one. Maybe, instead of a -2 penalty to defences, Brash Mark could grant combat advantage against the character to all enemies. That also leaves the character open to sneak attacks and the like. So, how's this? BRASH MARK Effect: On your turn, as a free action, you may choose to grant all enemies combat advantage against you until the beginning of your next turn. If you do, creatures marked by you take a -4 penalty to attack rolls when attacking a creature other than you, instead of the usual -2.
#11 mellored Apr 29, 2009 15:27:40	Actualy if this is for a swordmage, i would just allow him to use his aegis more. Quicken Aegis, Prereq: Swordmage, aegis, lvl 11 : "Once per encounter you may use your aegis as a free action instead of an immediate interrupt. This let's you use the aegis twice per turn." And Master Aegis, Prereq: Quicken Aegis, lvl 21 "Once per turn you may use your aegis as a free action instead of an immediate interrupt. This let's you use the aegis twice per turn. This does not stack with Quicken Aegis."
#12 erk_ Apr 29, 2009 16:16:21	I like it, but a suggestion for Quicken Aegis: force the player to sacrifice a minor action on his/her turn to enable the quickened Aegis, kinda a shortened&limited Ready Action. Master Aegis requires sacrificing a second minor action, ie. a move action, usually. This limits its use so that it's still potent, but not absurdly so. I've only a hazy idea what kind of stuff characters are capable of at Epic, really, so I don't know if that restriction is necesary for master. It could also just be that Master gives you two free actions when you spend a minor to quicken your aegis. I like the idea of spending the minor though: most of the time that minor action is wasted for swordmages anyway, but in the odd time you do use it, you now have some economy-of-action to consider. Herman: brash mark as you've written it is not necessarily worse than daunting challenge. Selectively lowering your defenses makes you much stickier. For a defender that can be very desirable, especially someone like a battlerager who hardly takes any HP damage from hits anyway.
#13 lord_herman_02 Apr 30, 2009 16:02:22	I'm letting my player take the Brash Mark feat as I've written it in my last post. We'll see how it works out in play.
#14 bastard_dm May 01, 2009 5:23:16	I don't know about your game, but in the two games I've seen swordmages in, they always try to mark enemies then move off to engage different targets. Unlike fighters and paladins, their mark lasts until they designate a new target. Since their aegis works from a distance, they have no reason to stay within reach of their mark. The tactic of a shielding swordmage marking an enemy already engaged in melee with one or more opponents and then moving to the other side of the battlefield is already a really solid one. Increasing the penalty to the enemy's attack rolls (in addition to the reduced damage on a hit due to the aegis) with the only alternative provoking several opportunity attacks (and praying there's isn't also a fighter in the party) is too much. If you don't have a lot of other melee characters in the party, or your swordmage is usually staying close to its marked target for whatever reason, or your encounters tend to favor small, closely-packed groups of enemies, then this may not be a problem. But in the games I've run and played in, this feat is way too good- at least for swordmages.
#15 mystara May 01, 2009 6:07:29	All defenders have some kind of bonus to their marks that they can apply once per round. For example, fighters get a free basic melee attack, paladins deal radiant damage and so on when a marked creature attack's someone other than the defender. I tentatively suggest something like the following: Aegis of Defending (Feat) Prerequisite: Swordmage When a creature you have marked makes an attack that doesn't include you as a target, but before the attack is rolled, you may (as an immediate interrupt) increase the defences of the target by 1 until the end of the creature's turn. Since the benefit is given as an immediate interrupt, your player must sacrifice their other marking abilities to improve their ally's defence. This should make it less powerful than the paragon feat that DragonsWrath mentioned and therefore suitable for Heroic tier. You could probably extend this feat to a fighter. But you couldn't extend it to a Paladin, because their marking ability (dealing radiant damage) is automatic and is not reliant on taking an immediate action.