Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Strength
Size: Large
Speed: 8 Squares
Vision: Low-light vision
Languages: Common, Elven
Skill Bonuses: +1 Athletics, +1 Endurance, +1 Nature, +1 Perception
Fey Origin: Your race is native to the Feywild, so you are considered a fey creature for the purpose of effects that relate to creature origin.
Firbolg Weakness: If you take necrotic damage, you are weakened until the end of your next turn.
Nature-Hardened: You gain a +2 bonus to saving throws against charmeffects, and the immobilized, restrained, and slowed conditions.
Moonfire: You gain Moonfire as an encounter power.
Moonfire
Encounter
Minor Action
Attack: Wisdom +4 vs. Will;
Increase to +6 at 11th level, +8 at 21st level
Hit: Until the end of your next turn, the target cannot benefit from
invisibility or concealment.
And some feat ideas... (Rough stage, not necessarily deciding what tier yet)
Hunter's Arms: You gain proficiency and a +2 feat bonus to damage rolls with
weapons with the heavy thrown property.
Expert Hunter: Whenever you make a Perception check to find tracks, you roll
twice and use either result. You also gain a +2 feat bonus to Perception.
Firbolg Religious Training: You can take Channel Divinity feats associated with Melora, Sehanine, and the Raven Queen as if you had the Channel Divinity class feature.
Hunter's Leap: You do not provoke opportunity attacks while jumping.
Firbolg Vitality: Once per day, you gain regeneration 5 while bloodied until
you are no longer bloodied. If you take necrotic damage, your regeneration
does not function on your next turn.
P.E.A.C.H, and thanks in advance!
----------------------------------------------------------------
FIRST REVISION
Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Dexterity or +2 Wisdom
Size: Medium
Speed: 7 Squares
Vision: Low-light vision
Languages: Common, Elven
Skill Bonuses: +2 Nature, +2 Athletics or Religion
Fey Origin: Your race is native to the Feywild, so you are considered a fey creature for the purpose of effects that relate to creature origin.
Giant's Reach: You treat all weapons without the reach weapon property as if they had the reach weapon property.
Nature-Hardened: You gain a +2 bonus to saving throws against charmeffects, and the immobilized, restrained, and slowed conditions.
Moonfire: You gain Moonfire as an encounter power.
Moonfire
Encounter
Minor Action, Ranged 5
Target: One Creature
Attack: Strength +2, Dexterity +2, or Wisdom +2 vs. Reflex
Hit: 1d6 + Wisdom Modifier damage, and the target cannot benefit from concealment or invisibility until the end of your next turn.
Special: When you create your character, choose Strength, Dexterity, or Wisdom as the ability score you use when making attack rolls with this power. The choice remains throughout your character's life and does not change the power's other effects.
Level 11: Strength +4, Dexterity +4, or Wisdom +4, and 2d6 damage
Level 21: Strength +6, Dexterity +6, or Wisdom +6, and 3d6 damage
---------------------------------
2ND REVISION
Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Dexterity or +2 Wisdom
Size: Medium
Speed: 7 Squares
Vision: Low-light vision
Languages: Common, Elven
Skill Bonuses: +2 Nature, +2 Athletics or Religion
Fey Origin: Your race is native to the Feywild, so you are considered a fey creature for the purpose of effects that relate to creature origin.
Firbolg Weapon Proficiency: You gain proficiency with the battleaxe, handaxe, and javelin.
Giant's Reach: You treat all weapons without the reach weapon property as if they had the reach weapon property.
Moonfire: You gain Moonfire as an encounter power.
Moonfire
Encounter
Minor Action, Ranged 10
Target: One Creature
Attack: Strength +2, Dexterity +2, or Wisdom +2 vs. Reflex
Increase to +4 bonus at 11th level and +6 bonus at 21st level.
Hit: Until the end of your next turn, the target cannot benefit from invisibility or concealment, and your attacks deal an extra 1d6 damage against the target.
Special: When you create your character, choose Strength, Dexterity, or Wisdom as the ability score you use when making attack rolls with this power. The choice remains throughout your character's life and does not change the power's other effects.
I wanted to make the firbolg more flavorful, which I think means emphasizing their hunting abilities (throwing weapons) and religion, so here's another shot at (heroic, i think) feats.
Firbolg Religious Training
Prerequisite: Firbolg
You can take Channel Divinity feats associated with Melora, Sehanine, and the Raven Queen, but unless you gain Channel Divinity as a class feature, you are not considered to have it for any other purpose.
Primitive Weapon Mastery
Prerequisite: Firbolg
You gain proficiency and a +2 feat bonus to damage rolls with axes and spears with the "heavy thrown" property.
The Crone's Winter Shawl
Prerequisite: Firbolg
You gain resist 5 cold. This increases to resist 10 cold at 11th level, and to resist 15 cold at 21st level. In addition, you gain a +2 bonus to Endurance checks made to endure extreme cold weather.
The Maiden's Freeing Kiss
Prerequisite: Firbolg
You gain a +2 bonus to saving throws against charm effects and the immobilized, restrained, and slowed conditions.
The Mother's Coddling
Prerequisite: Firbolg
Whenever you make a Perception check to find tracks, you can roll twice and use either result. In addition, you gain a +2 bonus to Stealth checks made to move quietly and a +2 bonus to Nature checks to forage for food.
(Paragon?)
Hunter's Leap
Prerequisite: Firbolg
You don't provoke opportunity attacks while jumping.
EDIT: Easiest solutions:
1) Make them medium, it won't fit with the MM2 firbolg but oh well
2) Remove Firbolg weakness, replace it with Firbolg reach, a feature that gives them an additional square of natural reach (similar to the goliath racial paragon path feature)
Also, moonfire is a little weak, and the attack bonus is too high. It should be wisdom +2 to start, going up by 2 per tier. Leaving it at wisdom +4 makes it too likely to hit if you go for a wisdom-based class. Also, maybe think of expanding it so you can use one of your other ability scores to attack (much like the dragonborn's racial breath). I'd write it like this:
Moonfire
Encounter
Minor Action, Ranged 5
Target: One Creature
Attack: Strength +2, Dexterity +2, or Wisdom +2 vs Reflex
Hit: 1d6 + Wisdom Modifier damage, and the target cannot benefit from concealment or invisibility until the end of your next turn.
Special: Choose Strength, Dexterity, or Wisdom as the stat you use to attack with this power at character creation. It cannot be changed.
Level 11: Strength +4, Dexterity +4, or Wisdom +4, and 2d6 damage
Level 21: Strength +6, Dexterity +6, or Wisdom +6, and 3d6 damage
@ Dark Stryke - The 4 +1's does look weird, but there's a finite combination of 2 +2 skills so I thought I'd try to make it a little interesting. But you're right that it's out of sorts. I think what I might change it to is +2 Nature, +2 Athletics OR +2 Religion. I took the attack bonus for Moonfire from the Minotaur's Goring Charge; because its weak I thought I'd at least make it accurate, but what you came up with does seem a lot more "4th Edition." What do you think of more-or-less copying the Drow's Darkfire power in terms of attack bonus and ability? Moonfire never outright does damage when used by firbolg in the monster manual, but it does grant combat advantage, make the user's attacks deal 1d6 extra damage, or mark them. What would you think of any of the three combinations? Thanks!
@ Vebrandsson - Thank you for being so polite. I knew the Large Size wouldn't go over well, but I gave them the weakness to make them seem a little balanced. Do you think the constant reach is overpowered? I think it might be because you don't see it often outside of polearms, paragon paths, and the occasional daily power. But that is a great suggestion, and I will definitely consider it. Maybe I will add it, but modify it in such a way that it doesn't stack with weapons that already have reach? What do you think of that?
I had no idea there was a firbolg race in the Monster Manual II, and I thought you were basing it off the firbolgs in World of Warcraft. There's an ability in that game called Moonfire, too (which does deal damage).
The thing about Darkfire is that Drow have another racial power, which means it's okay for it to be a niche ability. I suppose extra accuracy does partially make up for the fact that it's intentionally weak. I do kind of like the idea that it would instead make your attacks deal extra damage for a turn.
A) Giant's Reach is just as bad as Oversized. It's an racial feature greatly useful to melee weapon classes and completely useless to implement classes. This pigeon-holes the race into playing members of melee weapon classes or miss out on a rather major racial benefit, and that is bad design. 4E races are supposed to have class-neutral and role-neutral features so that they are able to perform at least reasonably well as members of any class..
B) Nature-Hardened doesn't work. You don't save against conditions. You save against effects that impose conditions. The bonus against charm effects is fine, but the bonus versus immobilized, restrained, and slowed does not function.
You don't save against conditions
Ummm... what?
Saving Throws
When you’re under a persistent effect or condition that can be ended by a save (“save ends”), you have a chance to escape the effect each round at the end of your turn. You do that by making a saving throw, which is a d20 roll unmodified by your level or ability modifiers. A successful saving throw is called a save.
(Page 279 of the PHB.) So if you got hit by something like the Gnome Arcanist's Illusory Terrain, you are slowed (save ends). You're saving against the slowed condition. I was mimicking the firbolg text (Saving Throws +2 against charm effects, immobilized, restrained, and slowed).
Also, the firbolg race pigeonhole'd itself. Even the Moon Seer (the most casterish of the release firbolgs) is armed with a particularly vicious mace that blinds on a hit. If anything it would invite firbolg casters to venture into combat more easily for heroics' sake.
@Dark Stryke - What did you think of the "Giant's Reach" racial feature seen in the revision? Thanks for your ongoing help!
@Crimson_Concerto:
Ummm... what?
(Page 279 of the PHB.) So if you got hit by something like the Gnome Arcanist's Illusory Terrain, you are slowed (save ends). You're saving against the slowed condition. I was mimicking the firbolg text (Saving Throws +2 against charm effects, immobilized, restrained, and slowed).
Sure, it certainly sounds that simple, but it's really not. You're unavoidably going to run into logical problems and questions.
For example, let's pretend a Firbolg gets hit by a Stormclaw Scorpion's Sting attack and thus takes ongoing 5 poison damage and is immobilized (save ends both). The character makes a saving throw and rolls a 9. What happens?
A) He gets to add his +2, making it 11, meaning he succeeded. Awesome, he's no longer immobilized. But wait, he's not taking ongoing poison damage anymore either. And how in the world does this make any sense? It's more difficult to stop him so he's mysteriously more resilient to poison damage in this particular instance?
B) He doesn't get to add his +2. It would only get to apply is the attack were only immobilizing you. This isn't a save against just the immobilized condition but also against ongoing poison damage, so the +2 bonus shouldn't apply? This makes the ability much more limited in use and also makes just about no sense.
C) He gets to add the +2 fur purposes of getting rid of the immobilization but not for the purposes of the poison damage, meaning that you get rid of the immobilization but continue to take the poison damage. There is absolutely zero precedent for this sort of ruling and it also makes no sense at all.
Also, the firbolg race pigeonhole'd itself. Even the Moon Seer (the most casterish of the release firbolgs) is armed with a particularly vicious mace that blinds on a hit. If anything it would invite firbolg casters to venture into combat more easily for heroics' sake.
I'm sorry but this is terrible reasoning. No race pigeon-holes itself. Only its designers do that. Pigeon-holing a race only into certain roles or classes is the exact opposite of 4E PC race design philosophy that every race should be able to perform reasonably as a member of any class or role. Keeping Giant's Reach is bad design. It's the same reason that Oversized will never make it onto a PC race.
It doesn't matter what the monster version does. That's the monster version. The PC version is not the same thing and should not be the same thing. They fulfill entirely different purposes and functions.
Martial Freedom
Prerequisites: Wis 13, any martial class, trained in Endurance
Benefit: You gain a +5 bonus to saving throws against the slowed and immobilized conditions.
That's a published feat in Martial Power, so it's not like I'm the first one breaking your rules of logic. It does not seem to have an errata or clarification anywhere. Secondly, some powers say "save ends" for each condition and some say "save ends both." It's not my fault that the contradictions in logic seem to exist; I'm just working along the lines of material that is already published. As far as I know, there hasn't been any errata or clarification, so I guess its up to the DM... but in a world of magic and horrible monsters, why would you get so hung up on logic?
Also, I think it's great that a firbolg caster could attack from relative safety. I don't think its good for any character to run around without at least a dagger. Besides... how do you feel about the Half-Orc's "Swift Charge"? I guess it's already clear how you feel about Minotaurs, but some races just lean towards the melee-capable.
Just because WotC made the same mistake as you doesn't mean that it's okay for you to make that mistake. Two wrongs do not make a right.
That's a published feat in Martial Power, so it's not like I'm the first one breaking your rules of logic.
They're not "my" rules of logic. They're legitimate mechanical questions that are not addressed or considered anywhere. Your not being the first one to mess that up doesn't make a bit of difference.
As far as I know, there hasn't been any errata or clarification, so I guess its up to the DM...
A mechanic that's simply left up to DM adjudication every time is not a good mechanic.
Also, I think it's great that a firbolg caster could attack from relative safety. I don't think its good for any character to run around without at least a dagger.
This is faulty reasoning. An implement-using class has zero good reason to ever have any melee weapon with them, and even if they do, they have zero good reason to keep it enchanted enough to make it usable or to keep their STR score high enough to make a melee basic attack worth taking. Even if your Firbolg casters all run around with daggers for no logical reason, using it will never be a better idea than using their own implement attack powers, outside of a few niche builds, so this feature is useless to them and exactly as bad as OVersized.
Besides... how do you feel about the Half-Orc's "Swift Charge"?
I think that whoever decided to do that should be shot in the face with a hammer. Again, just because WotC's developers mess up every once in a while doesn't mean that I don't get to criticize when somebody does it with their homebrew.
I guess it's already clear how you feel about Minotaurs, but some races just lean towards the melee-capable.
"Lean towards" and "pigeon-hole" are two different things. It's perfectly fine and reasonable for a race to favor certain classes and roles over others. The problem is only when they have feature that won't be of any use at all unless they play specific classes or roles. That is pigeon-holing, and it goes against the stated PC race design philosophies for 4E.
@ Crimson_Concerto: if you're just going to criticize instead of giving actual suggestions, i'd appreciate it if you stopped posting in my thread.
You asked for people to please examine your race and to critique honestly. I examined it, I critiqued it, and I was not mean or nasty about it. If you didn't want criticism, you shouldn't have asked for people to PEACH it. I don't know why you're seemingly so upset about it.
just saying that something is wrong or poorly designed without giving an idea in exchange is not nearly as helpful as you seem to think it is.
And ignoring criticism just because somebody doesn't specifically present alternatives or encouragement is fallacious. Whether I presented alternatives should not influence whether you heed my criticisms. I critique homebrew races all the time, and the reason I've started trying to avoid immediately presenting alternative suggestions and ideas is because I don't want to make people's races for them. I think people come up with more unique and interesting ideas that way.
If you're really having so much trouble with it, the simple solution would be to word the save mechanic such that it's "a +2 racial bonus to saving throws against charm effects and effects immobilizing, restraining, or slowing you." Then, when and how it applies is mechanically unambiguous.
As for the reach problem, there's really just no fixing that, so I recommend making it into a feat, probably a Paragon tier feat. The only way to conceivably fix it such that it doesn't pigeon-hole the race into melee weapon classes or else cause them to miss out on a major racial benefit would be to allow the reach benefit to apply to more than just weapons. For example...:
Giant's Reach: Whenever you make an attack, you can designate one empty square adjacent to you as the origin of that attack.
Of course, I don't think that this would be balanced at all, and there's no mechanical precedent for this sort of thing for me to know if that's properly worded or not, and so I highly recommend against it. In all likelihood, it would be broken, which is why I do not offer it as a suggestion, unless of course it were to be once per encounter or something.
i'm looking for suggestions for a homebrew race, and have no desire to argue about mechanics or the quality of the 4e design design team.
I didn't begin the discussion of designs found elsewhere in the game. You did. You asked, so I told you. :P
we are very obviously not going to come to an understanding on either of those topics.
I don't see why that has to be true.
Has a neanderthal feel, like in Beowulf and Grendel's version of Grendel(or his dad).
3.5 Firbolg http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Firbolgs_(3.5e_Race)
Has a neanderthal feel, like in Beowulf and Grendel's version of Grendel(or his dad).
* Powerful Build (Ex): The physical stature of firbolgs lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger.
Whenever a firbolg is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the firbolg is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.
A firbolg is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him.A firbolg can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size.
thanks for that, Seyeklopz! I'm wondering if this excerpt couldn't be modified to replace my Giant's Reach ability. Little busy, but will definitely work on it later!
Giant Stature: You can choose to be treated as though you were one size larger when making or opposing bull rush or grab attempts.
is "or for the purpose of determining whether a creature's attacks based on size affect you" broken?
Another idea would be to use something like the bugbear's "Oversized" ability, which gives a nice bonus. In fact, as far as I can tell the only other thing about large creatures is that they can resist some forced movement effects, plus the weapons thing. So considering the precedent set by bugbears, it might be acceptable to pick either the "Giant Stature" trait you discussed, or use the bugbear's Oversized trait, since it seems applicable to the Firbolg. Playtesting either or both of these would be useful to determine how balanced it actually is, but it seems promising.
EDIT: Looks like the 3.5 stat includes both choices. Didn't catch that the first time, but it seems like picking one half should work.
The Bugbear's Oversized is for NPC's, not players. It is why it was removed from the Minotaur. Its a powerful racial feature thats amazing for melee classes but does nothing for casters. If the bugbear ever gets a racial right up, Oversized will be removed from them too. Right now, the only non-'ask the dm' way to get 'oversized' is to take the eternal defender epic destiny.
I don't know why people seem not to understand this when they homebrew thing, but I'm going to go over it one more time and type it out in bold: Just because WotC made the same mistake as you doesn't mean that it's okay for you to make that mistake. Two wrongs do not make a right.
Really? If anything, I'd say homebrewers should be accorded more leniency in design than wotc is. They are only writing rules for one game--their own--and maybe hoping that a couple other dms somewhere might like the idea and adopt it too... what they are not doing is putting forth rules for a wide base of people to follow, which would necessitate greater care in balance, as we would like to expect from wotc.
This is more applicable to some arguments than others. If an ability were downright broken (so good that it minimizes the contributions of others, say, or otherwise makes the game unfun), it would be a problem even in homebrew. Constant +1 reach might be borderline there; I'm not sure. If it is, that'd be a good reason to object to it. But "pigeonholing"? If this is only played in OP's campaign, then probably only one or maybe two people will even select the race as an element in char creation. Does it even matter if it's somewhat better for certain class types?
Criticism is cool and all, but I don't know if the offense you perceive really deserves to be called "not okay" or a "wrong" or what have you. In bold no less!
Edit: Wow, I just realized that that comment is, like, months old. Should this necro'd thread now be about undead firbolg pcs? 