4e flexible classes rework - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

4e flexible classes rework

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
bageljay
Dec 17, 2009 16:18:56 This will be a work in progress over the next couple weeks:

The intention is to fix the problem that 4e classes seem railroaded and linear and unflexible. At each level you choose the power that most appeals to you with little reguard to the previous choices. Instead of classes you will be able to choose any power you meet the prerequisites for.

At character creation, choose race as usual.

Choose 1 power source:
Arcane
Divine
Martial
Primal
Psychic

Choose 4 Skills to be trained in.

Everyone is proficient with all simple weapons.
Either choose all military weapons, or implements to be proficient with.

Choose 3 class features, only one of each type, or 2 from combat talents: (prerequisite power source in parentheses)

Channel Divinity
              (to be added, list of channel divinity features available at creation)
Healers lore
              Healing Word (Divine)
              Lay on Hands (Divine)
              Inspiring Word (Martial)
              Majestic Word and Song of Rest (Arcane)
              Healing Spirit (Primal and requires a companion)
Ritual Casting (also gives 1 known lvl 1 ritual that you may cast 1/day without using material costs)

Defender Mark
              Combat Challenge (Martial)
              Divine Challenge (Divine)
              Natures Wrath (Primal)

Utility
              Eldrich pact (Arcane)
              Cantrips and Wizard rituals (Arcane)
              Multiclass Versitility, Skill Versitility, and Words of Friendship(Arcane)
              Speak with Spirits (Primal)
              Font of Life (Primal)

Combat Talent
              Battlerage Vigor (Martial or Divine)
              Onehanded weapon talent (Martial)
              Tempest Technique             (Martial or Primal)
              Twohanded weapon talent (Martial)
              Ranged weapon talent (Martial)
              Beast Mastery (Martial or Primal)
              Two Blade Fighting Style (Martial)
              Archer Fighting Style + Prime shot(Martial)
              Rogue Tactics + Firsttrike (Martial)
              Eldrich Blast (Arcane)
              Shadowwalk + Primeshot (Arcane)
              Commanding Presense + Combat Leader (Martial)
              Arcane Implement Mastery (Arcane)
              Armor of Faith (Divine)
              Barbarian Agility (Martial or Primal)
              Feral Might (Primal)
              Bardic Virtue (Arcane)
              Primal Aspect (Primal)
              Wild Shape (Primal or Arcane)
              Divine Covenent (Divine)
              Companion Spirit (Primal)
              Sorcerer Spell Source (Arcane, counts as 2 class features)
              Guardian Might (Primal)
Damage Talent
             Hunters Quarry (Martial or Primal)
             Sneak Attack (Martial)
             Warlock's Curse (Arcane)
             Avenger's Centure (Divine)
             Rampage and Rage Strike (Primal)

To Be added: hp and surges


#2
bageljay
Dec 17, 2009 16:19:19 At Will Powers: (Work in Progress, so far PHB PHB2)
Bolstering Strike (Divine or Arcane or Psychic)
Careful Attack (Martial)
Cleave (Martial)
Cloud of Daggers (Arcane or Psychic)
Commanders Strike (Any)
Deft Strike (Martial)
Dire Radiance (Arcane or Divine)
Enfeebling strike (Arcane or Divine)
Eyebite (Arcane or Psychic)
Furious Smash (Martial or Primal)
Hellish Rebuke (Arcane or Divine)
Hit and Run (Martial)
Holy Strike (Divine)
Lance of Faith (Divine)
Magic Missle (Arcane)
Nible Strike (Martial or Psychic)
Peircing Strike (Martial)
Priest's Sheild (Divine or Martial)
Ray of Frost (Arcane)
Reaping Strike (Martial)
Righteous Brand (Divine or Martial)
Riposte Strike (Martial)
Sacred Flame (Divine)
Scorching Burst (Arcane)
Sly Flourish (Martial or Psychic)
Sure Strike (Any)
Thunderwave (Arcane or Primal)
Tide of Iron (Martial or Primal)
Twin Strike (Martial (-2 to both attacks if you don't have two blade or acher's fighting style))
Valiant Strike (Divine or Martial)
Viper's Strike (Martial or Primal)
Wolf Pack Tactics (Martial or Primal)
Acid Orb (Arcane)
Avenging Light (Divine)
Bond Pursuit (Divine or Primal)
Bond of Retribution (Divine)
Burning Spray (Arcane)
Call of the Beast (Primal)
Chaos Bolt (Arcane)
Chill Wind (Arcane or Primal)
Defending Strike (Martial or Primal)
Devestating Strike (Martial or Primal)
Divine Bolts (Divine)
Dragon Frost (Arcane or Primal)
Earth Sheild Strike (Martial or Primal)
Flame Seed (Arcane or Primal)
Grasping Claws (Primal must have Beast Form)
Grasping Shards (Divine or Psychic)
Guiding Strike (Arcane or Psychic)
Haunting Spirits (Primal Psychic)
Howling Strike (Primal)
Misdirected Mark (Arcane or Psychic)
Overwhelming Strike (Divine or Primal)
Pounce (Primal must have Beast Form)
Pressing Strike(Primal Martial)
Protecting Strike (Divine Primal)
Radiant Vengence (Divine)
Recuperating Strike (Primal Martial)
Savage Rend (Primal must have beast form)
Stalkers strike (Primal, must have companion. replace "spirit companion" with companion)
Storm spike (Primal)
Storm Walk (Arcane Primal)
Strenght of Stone (Primal)
Sun Strike (Divine)
Thorn Strike (Primal)
Thorn Whip (Primal)
Vanguards Lightning (Divine Primal)
Vicious Mockery (Arcane Psychic)
War Song Strike (Arcane Martial)
Watchers Strike (Martial Primal must have companion)
Weight of Earth (Primal)
Wrath of Winter (Primal)

Feats: feats with a prerequisite class, are instead prerequisite by the power or feature they alter, or by

Cleric: Channel Divinity OR Healing Word
Fighter: Combat Challenge, OR Fighting Style
Paladin: Channel Divinity OR Divine Challenge
Ranger: Fighting Style OR Hunters Quarry
Rouge: Sneak Attack
Warlock: Pact OR Curse
Warlord: Commanding Presense
Wizard: cantrips
Avenger: Avenger's Censure
Barbarian: Rampage
Bard: Bardic Virtue
Druid: Primal Aspect OR Wildshape
Invoker: Divine Covenent
Shaman: Companion Spirit
Sorcerer: Sorcerer Spell Source
Warden: Guardian Might

In place of multiclass feats add the following two feats:

Powerful: Choose an additional Powersource. You may take this feat multiple times.

Talented: Choose an additional Class Feature. You must meet the requisites for the new feature.
#3
Qube
Dec 18, 2009 0:40:35 interesting concept.
#4
bone_naga
Dec 18, 2009 11:29:32 Good luck with that, but to be honest it really looks like you're fighting against the system here. You're playing a class-based game, but it looks like you want point-buy. Rather than reconstruct the entire class system, you might want to just play a point-buy game.

That said, I've heard similar comments directed towards some of my past endeavors, and I realize sometimes there's enough good in a system that you want to use most of it, just not all of it. So here's another idea. Before 4e's release, one of the devs actually said that this would be the easiest edition to go classless with. Instead of a very complex system like you have here, he suggested that you could just choose a class to give you your starting HP, class abilities, etc., and after that select any power you wanted from any class. Multiclassing would still work as normal, but obviously there'd be no need to paragon multiclass or take power swap feats.

You might find it easier to implement a similar solution. Even if you still want power source to matter, you allow each class to choose any power from the same source instead of any power from any class. Power swap feats would give you any powers from the power source of whatever class you MC'd into.
#5
bageljay
Dec 18, 2009 13:08:22
it really looks like you're fighting against the system here. You're playing a class-based game, but it looks like you want point-buy. Rather than reconstruct the entire class system, you might want to just play a point-buy game.

1 4e is already a point buy system, you buy your stats, you pick 1 set of class features, 2 at wills and 1 encounter ect.
I'm just trying to expand the options. instead of picking 1 set of class features, i'm letting you pick your set of class features.

as far as a point buy, it make more sense to generalize the at wills to classify each one.
I don't particularly like the "pick one power from anywhere" because it gives no rewards for specializing. I think its silly to say all fighters can pick "Giant twohander smash" power when some fighters have sheilds and others use two weapons, but i do want assasins to be able to take "Giant twohander smash" if they focus on hitting hard with a large twohander.

#6
Rustmonster
Dec 18, 2009 23:53:14 If the assasin wanted to hit stiff hard with a two handed weapon, why didn't he choose a class that was focused on hitting hard with a two handed weapon? The point of the class system is that you choose a class that fits your concept.

4E is not a point buy system. GURPs is. Have you ever seen GURPs? You have a pool of points, and you spend them on attributes, statistics, skills, and everything else. This is ONE POOL, mind you. Putting points into, say, Swrod Fighting will reduce the number of points you could have put in ANYTHING, not just other skills.

4E doesn't do that. Under a class system, you choose a package (class) and gain features form it. Yes, you may have choices withnin the package, but it is still a package, not a single pool of points.
#7
nachtsieger
Dec 22, 2009 3:34:33 I'm going to be blunt, so excuse my Vietnamese.

Your idea is clumsy, not very well thought out in the least, built on questionable reasons, and immensely arbitrary.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 bageljay Dec 17, 2009 16:18:56	This will be a work in progress over the next couple weeks: The intention is to fix the problem that 4e classes seem railroaded and linear and unflexible. At each level you choose the power that most appeals to you with little reguard to the previous choices. Instead of classes you will be able to choose any power you meet the prerequisites for. At character creation, choose race as usual. Choose 1 power source: Arcane Divine Martial Primal Psychic Choose 4 Skills to be trained in. Everyone is proficient with all simple weapons. Either choose all military weapons, or implements to be proficient with. Choose 3 class features, only one of each type, or 2 from combat talents: (prerequisite power source in parentheses) Channel Divinity (to be added, list of channel divinity features available at creation) Healers lore Healing Word (Divine) Lay on Hands (Divine) Inspiring Word (Martial) Majestic Word and Song of Rest (Arcane) Healing Spirit (Primal and requires a companion) Ritual Casting (also gives 1 known lvl 1 ritual that you may cast 1/day without using material costs) Defender Mark Combat Challenge (Martial) Divine Challenge (Divine) Natures Wrath (Primal) Utility Eldrich pact (Arcane) Cantrips and Wizard rituals (Arcane) Multiclass Versitility, Skill Versitility, and Words of Friendship(Arcane) Speak with Spirits (Primal) Font of Life (Primal) Combat Talent Battlerage Vigor (Martial or Divine) Onehanded weapon talent (Martial) Tempest Technique (Martial or Primal) Twohanded weapon talent (Martial) Ranged weapon talent (Martial) Beast Mastery (Martial or Primal) Two Blade Fighting Style (Martial) Archer Fighting Style + Prime shot(Martial) Rogue Tactics + Firsttrike (Martial) Eldrich Blast (Arcane) Shadowwalk + Primeshot (Arcane) Commanding Presense + Combat Leader (Martial) Arcane Implement Mastery (Arcane) Armor of Faith (Divine) Barbarian Agility (Martial or Primal) Feral Might (Primal) Bardic Virtue (Arcane) Primal Aspect (Primal) Wild Shape (Primal or Arcane) Divine Covenent (Divine) Companion Spirit (Primal) Sorcerer Spell Source (Arcane, counts as 2 class features) Guardian Might (Primal) Damage Talent Hunters Quarry (Martial or Primal) Sneak Attack (Martial) Warlock's Curse (Arcane) Avenger's Centure (Divine) Rampage and Rage Strike (Primal) To Be added: hp and surges
#2 bageljay Dec 17, 2009 16:19:19	At Will Powers: (Work in Progress, so far PHB PHB2) Bolstering Strike (Divine or Arcane or Psychic) Careful Attack (Martial) Cleave (Martial) Cloud of Daggers (Arcane or Psychic) Commanders Strike (Any) Deft Strike (Martial) Dire Radiance (Arcane or Divine) Enfeebling strike (Arcane or Divine) Eyebite (Arcane or Psychic) Furious Smash (Martial or Primal) Hellish Rebuke (Arcane or Divine) Hit and Run (Martial) Holy Strike (Divine) Lance of Faith (Divine) Magic Missle (Arcane) Nible Strike (Martial or Psychic) Peircing Strike (Martial) Priest's Sheild (Divine or Martial) Ray of Frost (Arcane) Reaping Strike (Martial) Righteous Brand (Divine or Martial) Riposte Strike (Martial) Sacred Flame (Divine) Scorching Burst (Arcane) Sly Flourish (Martial or Psychic) Sure Strike (Any) Thunderwave (Arcane or Primal) Tide of Iron (Martial or Primal) Twin Strike (Martial (-2 to both attacks if you don't have two blade or acher's fighting style)) Valiant Strike (Divine or Martial) Viper's Strike (Martial or Primal) Wolf Pack Tactics (Martial or Primal) Acid Orb (Arcane) Avenging Light (Divine) Bond Pursuit (Divine or Primal) Bond of Retribution (Divine) Burning Spray (Arcane) Call of the Beast (Primal) Chaos Bolt (Arcane) Chill Wind (Arcane or Primal) Defending Strike (Martial or Primal) Devestating Strike (Martial or Primal) Divine Bolts (Divine) Dragon Frost (Arcane or Primal) Earth Sheild Strike (Martial or Primal) Flame Seed (Arcane or Primal) Grasping Claws (Primal must have Beast Form) Grasping Shards (Divine or Psychic) Guiding Strike (Arcane or Psychic) Haunting Spirits (Primal Psychic) Howling Strike (Primal) Misdirected Mark (Arcane or Psychic) Overwhelming Strike (Divine or Primal) Pounce (Primal must have Beast Form) Pressing Strike(Primal Martial) Protecting Strike (Divine Primal) Radiant Vengence (Divine) Recuperating Strike (Primal Martial) Savage Rend (Primal must have beast form) Stalkers strike (Primal, must have companion. replace "spirit companion" with companion) Storm spike (Primal) Storm Walk (Arcane Primal) Strenght of Stone (Primal) Sun Strike (Divine) Thorn Strike (Primal) Thorn Whip (Primal) Vanguards Lightning (Divine Primal) Vicious Mockery (Arcane Psychic) War Song Strike (Arcane Martial) Watchers Strike (Martial Primal must have companion) Weight of Earth (Primal) Wrath of Winter (Primal) Feats: feats with a prerequisite class, are instead prerequisite by the power or feature they alter, or by Cleric: Channel Divinity OR Healing Word Fighter: Combat Challenge, OR Fighting Style Paladin: Channel Divinity OR Divine Challenge Ranger: Fighting Style OR Hunters Quarry Rouge: Sneak Attack Warlock: Pact OR Curse Warlord: Commanding Presense Wizard: cantrips Avenger: Avenger's Censure Barbarian: Rampage Bard: Bardic Virtue Druid: Primal Aspect OR Wildshape Invoker: Divine Covenent Shaman: Companion Spirit Sorcerer: Sorcerer Spell Source Warden: Guardian Might In place of multiclass feats add the following two feats: Powerful: Choose an additional Powersource. You may take this feat multiple times. Talented: Choose an additional Class Feature. You must meet the requisites for the new feature.
#3 Qube Dec 18, 2009 0:40:35	interesting concept.
#4 bone_naga Dec 18, 2009 11:29:32	Good luck with that, but to be honest it really looks like you're fighting against the system here. You're playing a class-based game, but it looks like you want point-buy. Rather than reconstruct the entire class system, you might want to just play a point-buy game. That said, I've heard similar comments directed towards some of my past endeavors, and I realize sometimes there's enough good in a system that you want to use most of it, just not all of it. So here's another idea. Before 4e's release, one of the devs actually said that this would be the easiest edition to go classless with. Instead of a very complex system like you have here, he suggested that you could just choose a class to give you your starting HP, class abilities, etc., and after that select any power you wanted from any class. Multiclassing would still work as normal, but obviously there'd be no need to paragon multiclass or take power swap feats. You might find it easier to implement a similar solution. Even if you still want power source to matter, you allow each class to choose any power from the same source instead of any power from any class. Power swap feats would give you any powers from the power source of whatever class you MC'd into.
#5 bageljay Dec 18, 2009 13:08:22	it really looks like you're fighting against the system here. You're playing a class-based game, but it looks like you want point-buy. Rather than reconstruct the entire class system, you might want to just play a point-buy game. 1 4e is already a point buy system, you buy your stats, you pick 1 set of class features, 2 at wills and 1 encounter ect. I'm just trying to expand the options. instead of picking 1 set of class features, i'm letting you pick your set of class features. as far as a point buy, it make more sense to generalize the at wills to classify each one. I don't particularly like the "pick one power from anywhere" because it gives no rewards for specializing. I think its silly to say all fighters can pick "Giant twohander smash" power when some fighters have sheilds and others use two weapons, but i do want assasins to be able to take "Giant twohander smash" if they focus on hitting hard with a large twohander.
#6 Rustmonster Dec 18, 2009 23:53:14	If the assasin wanted to hit stiff hard with a two handed weapon, why didn't he choose a class that was focused on hitting hard with a two handed weapon? The point of the class system is that you choose a class that fits your concept. 4E is not a point buy system. GURPs is. Have you ever seen GURPs? You have a pool of points, and you spend them on attributes, statistics, skills, and everything else. This is ONE POOL, mind you. Putting points into, say, Swrod Fighting will reduce the number of points you could have put in ANYTHING, not just other skills. 4E doesn't do that. Under a class system, you choose a package (class) and gain features form it. Yes, you may have choices withnin the package, but it is still a package, not a single pool of points.
#7 nachtsieger Dec 22, 2009 3:34:33	I'm going to be blunt, so excuse my Vietnamese. Your idea is clumsy, not very well thought out in the least, built on questionable reasons, and immensely arbitrary.