[4E] How to pull off Monotheism in D&D and have it work Mechanically - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

[4E] How to pull off Monotheism in D&D and have it work Mechanically

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Naethanyl
Mar 31, 2010 0:09:28 I need some help here. While I've always enjoyed the pantheon elements of D&D in terms of its mechanics and roleplaying quality, I've always wanted to experiment with a Monotheistic Setting with a God and Devil or light and darkness. The problem is different power sources are attributed to different planes and the beings that inhabit them, making it difficult to convert them to fit such a design. Another problem is actually making the religions of different in-game races fit such a premise. I don't want to start a flame war or religous debate here, I was just curious as to see how this is implemented in different games.
#2
Hebitsuikaza
Mar 31, 2010 1:45:43 The only real way to do it would be to remove the aspect of different gods entirely and instead have only 1 (or 2 since there would be an evil one too in your description) options on the list of gods one could worship.

The other possibility is to have clerics commune through aspects, saints, angels or something of a similar lot-- so it is still actually a pantheon, only with one god at the top recognized that no one really communes directly with but instead prayers or worships through an intermediary.
#3
lord_darwath
Mar 31, 2010 2:49:34 My campaign world isn't 4e, but it is both mono and pantheistic at the same time. The primary religion in the world is the worship of an all-encompassing Source of Everything deity. However, this god is largely impersonal, in the sense that you would never encounter an avatar of the Source, because the totality of everything that exists essentially IS said avatar. However, different sects can also be found that worship specific aspects or expressions of the Source, and those aspects are more personal and will have avatars. In some small and remote sects, the worship of divine aspects has actually become paganized and the followers don't recognize the Source, believing their god to be an independent being. Then there's the druidic faith that views physical nature as being the Source, and regards it to be truly impersonal, meaning non-intelligent, neither good nor evil just there to be both drawn upon and protected. Lastly there are some anti-god cults with varying viewpoints.

#4
wrecan
Mar 31, 2010 10:20:04 Okay. Here's a suggestion.

The One God makes creation, but is lonely. So it leaves creation unfinished, and makes a lot of intelligent races. Their job is to prefect themselves and creation, thus becoming a perfect helpmeet for the God.

All of the races differ on how to accomplish that and what tools are available to do that.

Arcane: This is sort of magical science. The One God left behind rules of how the universe worked, but also the power to rewrite some of these rules. By gaining Arcane power, one gains control over the multiverse and can thus perfect it. Detractors believe that this purely mechanical and unemotional approach to creation ignores that the One God is looking for a soulmate.

Divine: The One God left behind a bit of its divine essence, which can be sublimated into one's own psyche. By giving oneself up to the will of the Divine, one becomes in tune with the Divine, thus transforming oneself into a proper soulmate. Detractors say that if the One God wanted an automaton that only did what the One God wanted, the One God would have made a helpmeet, rather than asking us to use our free will to become one. Moreover, the fact that various divine practitioners disagree so strongly on what the Divinity represents indicates that Divinity may reveal no more truths about the One God than any other path. Divine practitioners, however, rightly point out that all we know about the One God has gome from Divine Parctitioners. No Arcanist, Martial Practitioner Primalist, Elementalist, or Psion, has ever connected directly with the Divine.

Martial: The One God did not want us to perfect the world by using cheats and tricks of the One God's own power -- the One God gave us all the tools we need to become a helpmeet in our own bodies. Martial practitioners seek to perfect their body and mind and become the best of what they already are. They will not fix the world through cheap theatrics and miracles borrowed from the One God's own magic. They will fix this world through the sweat and blood of their own efforts, and that will be more treasured by the One God than any parlor trick. Detractors deride such beliefs as naive -- the One God would not have allowed sentient beings access to magic, divinity, psionics, primal powers, or even the shadow, if the One God did not want us to use it. (Martial practitioners remind them that the One God left the world unfinished -- access to those powers may be a test of resolve, not to take the easy route to divinity)

Primal: By communing with the spiritual and sentient essence of all things, you become more that one individual, you can become the sum total of creation. Primal practitioners believe the One God split itself in half -- one half remainign divine and separate, and the other half being Creation. If a Primal Practitioner can commune with all of Creation at once, it is believed that this person will be an equal independent helpmeet for the One God. Detractors say that this ignore that creation was made to be imperfect -- becoming the sum total of imperfection seems like a poor helpmeet.

Psionic: Psions expand their consciousnesses beyond the boundaries of what the One God created, discovering a hypothetical realm of unreality and impossiblity. By becoming more than what is limited to this universe, the Psion believes it can become something unique and different. Why would the One God want something that is solely what it created? The One God clearly wants something new, something even the One God could not conceive. Detractors point out that such experiments invariably result in madness. Moreover, such experiments have allowed aberrant creatures to enter the World, and their chaotic energies do not appear to be completing the world, as the One God intended.

Shadow: The One God created all that is matter, and the One God is light. That light casts a shadow when thrown against the World the One God created, and that shadow takes on a form and sentience of its own (as demons), or transforms those who abandon the light (such as devils). The One God, as light, cannot see the shadow it casts, for shining a light on shadow causes it disappear. The One God, say ahadoe pratitioners, wants to know all things, even those things it cannot percieve. By becoming a perfect embodiment of Shadow, one become the perfect counterpart to the light One God, and together they can complete the job of creation. Detractors refuse to believe that the One God would want a helpmeet as dark and twisted as shadow practitioners must become. Rather, say the detractors, the Shadow is a manifestiation of the unfinished parts of reality, that must be filled with the divine presence.

Elemental: By focusing on the raw energies and materials used in the initial creation, the Elementalists seek to mimic the One God in its process of shaping creation. In this way, the elementalist can recreate the world in the way that the One God originally intended it to be made and doing that will prove to the One God that the elementalist is deserving of becoming the One God's helpmeet. Detractors state that concentrating on what has already been created is backwards -- one must progress and evolve to become worthy of the One God.

Multidisciplinarians: Hybridists and multiclassers believe that a mastery of all of the disciplines will lead to a perfect understanding of the world and One God's reasonings. Detractorspoint out that it is implossible to become a true master of any one discipline if one dissipates one's energies in too many directions at once, and in truth, few multidisciplinarians are able to concentrate on more than one or two disciplines.
#5
sfurtwangler
Mar 31, 2010 13:02:07 I found a neat post in a thread here by "Ian.thomson" where he did a Dieties & Demigods writeup for 4E, and included "Monotheism" (scroll down a bit, or search for it on that page) and threw out an idea where instead of having multiple gods, you jsut have one god, with multiple religions that worship him. Rather than having a divine character pick a 'chosen diety' you have them pick a religion, which grants access to certain domains (feats, paragon paths, etc) the same way a god would.
#6
lord_darwath
Mar 31, 2010 23:16:25 @ wrecan:

Sounds like maybe you've studied Gnosticism (or something similar) more than just a little.

#7
wrecan
Apr 01, 2010 8:36:28 @Lord Darwath

It's a melange of gnosticism, Buddhism, traditional Judaism, and Kabbalah. And, I threw in a bit of Theosophy for good measure.
#8
lord_darwath
Apr 01, 2010 12:03:40 Very coherent.

But is it too "real world" for a game?

I don't think so, but if this were the eighties I can see where some would argue such a system played into the bible thumpers' hands. "See!? They're using the game to teach alternate religion to unsuspecting teens!"

I hope I'm not derailing the thread too much. This is a thread that I think deserves a fair amount of attention.
#9
wrecan
Apr 01, 2010 12:43:47 Meh. These guys would fit right into the Planescape factions. 2e's aversion ot religion only meant they renamed everything (tanar'ri). As long as you gave it a non-obvious name, you were fine.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Naethanyl Mar 31, 2010 0:09:28	I need some help here. While I've always enjoyed the pantheon elements of D&D in terms of its mechanics and roleplaying quality, I've always wanted to experiment with a Monotheistic Setting with a God and Devil or light and darkness. The problem is different power sources are attributed to different planes and the beings that inhabit them, making it difficult to convert them to fit such a design. Another problem is actually making the religions of different in-game races fit such a premise. I don't want to start a flame war or religous debate here, I was just curious as to see how this is implemented in different games.
#2 Hebitsuikaza Mar 31, 2010 1:45:43	The only real way to do it would be to remove the aspect of different gods entirely and instead have only 1 (or 2 since there would be an evil one too in your description) options on the list of gods one could worship. The other possibility is to have clerics commune through aspects, saints, angels or something of a similar lot-- so it is still actually a pantheon, only with one god at the top recognized that no one really communes directly with but instead prayers or worships through an intermediary.
#3 lord_darwath Mar 31, 2010 2:49:34	My campaign world isn't 4e, but it is both mono and pantheistic at the same time. The primary religion in the world is the worship of an all-encompassing Source of Everything deity. However, this god is largely impersonal, in the sense that you would never encounter an avatar of the Source, because the totality of everything that exists essentially IS said avatar. However, different sects can also be found that worship specific aspects or expressions of the Source, and those aspects are more personal and will have avatars. In some small and remote sects, the worship of divine aspects has actually become paganized and the followers don't recognize the Source, believing their god to be an independent being. Then there's the druidic faith that views physical nature as being the Source, and regards it to be truly impersonal, meaning non-intelligent, neither good nor evil just there to be both drawn upon and protected. Lastly there are some anti-god cults with varying viewpoints.
#4 wrecan Mar 31, 2010 10:20:04	Okay. Here's a suggestion. The One God makes creation, but is lonely. So it leaves creation unfinished, and makes a lot of intelligent races. Their job is to prefect themselves and creation, thus becoming a perfect helpmeet for the God. All of the races differ on how to accomplish that and what tools are available to do that. Arcane: This is sort of magical science. The One God left behind rules of how the universe worked, but also the power to rewrite some of these rules. By gaining Arcane power, one gains control over the multiverse and can thus perfect it. Detractors believe that this purely mechanical and unemotional approach to creation ignores that the One God is looking for a soulmate. Divine: The One God left behind a bit of its divine essence, which can be sublimated into one's own psyche. By giving oneself up to the will of the Divine, one becomes in tune with the Divine, thus transforming oneself into a proper soulmate. Detractors say that if the One God wanted an automaton that only did what the One God wanted, the One God would have made a helpmeet, rather than asking us to use our free will to become one. Moreover, the fact that various divine practitioners disagree so strongly on what the Divinity represents indicates that Divinity may reveal no more truths about the One God than any other path. Divine practitioners, however, rightly point out that all we know about the One God has gome from Divine Parctitioners. No Arcanist, Martial Practitioner Primalist, Elementalist, or Psion, has ever connected directly with the Divine. Martial: The One God did not want us to perfect the world by using cheats and tricks of the One God's own power -- the One God gave us all the tools we need to become a helpmeet in our own bodies. Martial practitioners seek to perfect their body and mind and become the best of what they already are. They will not fix the world through cheap theatrics and miracles borrowed from the One God's own magic. They will fix this world through the sweat and blood of their own efforts, and that will be more treasured by the One God than any parlor trick. Detractors deride such beliefs as naive -- the One God would not have allowed sentient beings access to magic, divinity, psionics, primal powers, or even the shadow, if the One God did not want us to use it. (Martial practitioners remind them that the One God left the world unfinished -- access to those powers may be a test of resolve, not to take the easy route to divinity) Primal: By communing with the spiritual and sentient essence of all things, you become more that one individual, you can become the sum total of creation. Primal practitioners believe the One God split itself in half -- one half remainign divine and separate, and the other half being Creation. If a Primal Practitioner can commune with all of Creation at once, it is believed that this person will be an equal independent helpmeet for the One God. Detractors say that this ignore that creation was made to be imperfect -- becoming the sum total of imperfection seems like a poor helpmeet. Psionic: Psions expand their consciousnesses beyond the boundaries of what the One God created, discovering a hypothetical realm of unreality and impossiblity. By becoming more than what is limited to this universe, the Psion believes it can become something unique and different. Why would the One God want something that is solely what it created? The One God clearly wants something new, something even the One God could not conceive. Detractors point out that such experiments invariably result in madness. Moreover, such experiments have allowed aberrant creatures to enter the World, and their chaotic energies do not appear to be completing the world, as the One God intended. Shadow: The One God created all that is matter, and the One God is light. That light casts a shadow when thrown against the World the One God created, and that shadow takes on a form and sentience of its own (as demons), or transforms those who abandon the light (such as devils). The One God, as light, cannot see the shadow it casts, for shining a light on shadow causes it disappear. The One God, say ahadoe pratitioners, wants to know all things, even those things it cannot percieve. By becoming a perfect embodiment of Shadow, one become the perfect counterpart to the light One God, and together they can complete the job of creation. Detractors refuse to believe that the One God would want a helpmeet as dark and twisted as shadow practitioners must become. Rather, say the detractors, the Shadow is a manifestiation of the unfinished parts of reality, that must be filled with the divine presence. Elemental: By focusing on the raw energies and materials used in the initial creation, the Elementalists seek to mimic the One God in its process of shaping creation. In this way, the elementalist can recreate the world in the way that the One God originally intended it to be made and doing that will prove to the One God that the elementalist is deserving of becoming the One God's helpmeet. Detractors state that concentrating on what has already been created is backwards -- one must progress and evolve to become worthy of the One God. Multidisciplinarians: Hybridists and multiclassers believe that a mastery of all of the disciplines will lead to a perfect understanding of the world and One God's reasonings. Detractorspoint out that it is implossible to become a true master of any one discipline if one dissipates one's energies in too many directions at once, and in truth, few multidisciplinarians are able to concentrate on more than one or two disciplines.
#5 sfurtwangler Mar 31, 2010 13:02:07	I found a neat post in a thread here by "Ian.thomson" where he did a Dieties & Demigods writeup for 4E, and included "Monotheism" (scroll down a bit, or search for it on that page) and threw out an idea where instead of having multiple gods, you jsut have one god, with multiple religions that worship him. Rather than having a divine character pick a 'chosen diety' you have them pick a religion, which grants access to certain domains (feats, paragon paths, etc) the same way a god would.
#6 lord_darwath Mar 31, 2010 23:16:25	@ wrecan: Sounds like maybe you've studied Gnosticism (or something similar) more than just a little.
#7 wrecan Apr 01, 2010 8:36:28	@Lord Darwath It's a melange of gnosticism, Buddhism, traditional Judaism, and Kabbalah. And, I threw in a bit of Theosophy for good measure.
#8 lord_darwath Apr 01, 2010 12:03:40	Very coherent. But is it too "real world" for a game? I don't think so, but if this were the eighties I can see where some would argue such a system played into the bible thumpers' hands. "See!? They're using the game to teach alternate religion to unsuspecting teens!" I hope I'm not derailing the thread too much. This is a thread that I think deserves a fair amount of attention.
#9 wrecan Apr 01, 2010 12:43:47	Meh. These guys would fit right into the Planescape factions. 2e's aversion ot religion only meant they renamed everything (tanar'ri). As long as you gave it a non-obvious name, you were fine.