The first challenge in a Wild West adaptation is making gun combat, which always happens at a range, exciting. I like 4E's emphasis on tactics and movement, and when everyone uses a ranged weapon that's diluted. So I need to throw in some kind of system that rewards tactical thinking and makes encounters fun.
We'll flesh that out fully in a later post, but it's good to keep in mind from the beginning because it's the #1 thing to think about when designing the system. With that in mind, I've tentatively adapted the roles to better suit ranged combat.
My ideas on the roles:
Wild West Roles:
Gunslinger- Your typical bad***** cowboy, powers use any gun at relatively close range. Focuses on keeping enemies pinned down behind their cover while giving their allies support to move into position. "Fastest gun in the West". 4E analog-defender/controller
Sniper- A patient character who says little and only needs one bullet to get the job done. Best weapon is rifle. "Could shoot a fly off a horse's behind at 100 paces". 4E analog-striker
Sheriff- Needs a better name. Coordinates allies, granting bonuses and allowing the use of healing surges. 4E analog-leader
Keep in mind these are the roles, not necessarily the classes that will fill them.
Gunslinger- Your typical bad***** cowboy, powers use any gun at relatively close range. Focuses on keeping enemies pinned down behind their cover while giving their allies support to move into position. "Fastest gun in the West". 4E analog-defender/controller
Sniper- A patient character who says little and only needs one bullet to get the job done. Best weapon is rifle. "Could shoot a fly off a horse's behind at 100 paces". 4E analog-striker
Sheriff- Needs a better name. Coordinates allies, granting bonuses and allowing the use of healing surges. 4E analog-leader
Keep in mind these are the roles, not necessarily the classes that will fill them.
To that end, I'm making the following new rules for cover.
Firearms generally target Ref instead of AC, since they penetrate most materials easily. This allows characters to opt out of wearing armor with little combat penalty, and I'll make some feats and powers that conditionally raise Ref to differentiate between classes.
Standing behind a common cover feature: barrel, crate, boulder, pillar and the like, grants +2 Ref automatically. Crouching behind it, a move action, makes it superior cover (+5 Ref).
Thus you can fire (standard) and crouch (move) in the same turn, giving you +5 Ref and an attack. If you use an action to actually move during a turn, you have the choice of either crouching once you get there standard used as a move action) for superior cover or taking a shot (standard) but only getting the +2 Ref that round.
Firearms have an optimal short range, and beyond that suffer a -4 instead of the normal -2 to hit penalty. Most powers are usable only within the firearm's optimal range, beyond that you use ranged basic attacks.
Height is also important: a character grants combat advantage to enemies that have a significant elevation (1 story or more) compared to them.
The Gunslinger (defender) marks targets by taking a shot at them, just like a fighter (assuming they are within optimal range). A marked target suffers -2 to hit against targets other than the Gunslinger. Additionally, if they move the Gunslinger gets a ranged basic attack against them.
Is this enough of a defender role, or should it be strengthened? Any comments?
I've been reading Jonah Hex all day.
I think I'll actually try introducing different races into the Wild West. I like the West as a theme, not necessarily a historical setting. The important thematic elements can all be preserved and still have some high fantasy elements like dragonfolk, dwarves, and magic weapons (a la the Colt in Supernatural). I do want to avoid high magic and steampunk, and have a more gritty, folklorish feel for supernatural occurences in the setting. Wizards for the most part won't exist, but the PCs might encounter people who have made a pact with a devil for money, fame, or romance.
My influences in this are of course any good Western, especially Tombstone and A Fistfull of Dollars. Firefly is a good example of superimposing Western elements, mood, and theme on an unexpected setting. I like Orson Scott Card's Alvin Maker saga as an example of combining American historical and folklore elements with fantasy. Feel free to post your own favorite Western Influences, maybe I'll take a cue from one of them.
From wiki:
In the story, Roland is the last living member of a knightly order known as gunslingers. The world he lives in is quite different from our own, yet it bears striking similarities to it. Politically organized along the lines of a feudal society, it shares technological and social characteristics with the American Old West, as well as bearing magical powers and the relics of a highly advanced, but long vanished, society. Roland's quest is to find the Dark Tower, a fabled building said to be the nexus of all universes. Roland's world is said to have "moved on," and indeed it appears to be coming apart at the seams — mighty nations have been torn apart by war, entire cities and regions vanish from the face of the earth without a trace, time does not flow in an orderly fashion; even the sun sometimes rises in the north and sets in the east. As the series opens, Roland's motives, goals, and his age are unclear, though later installments shed light on these mysteries.
All roads lead to the tower.
Jonah Hex, for those who haven't had the pleasure, is a very good comic series, published variously by DC comics and their Vertigo imprint; the titular character is the most feared bounty hunter in the west; a former Confederate soldier, slight supernatural bent (although his Vertigo line had him fighting zombies, spirit-folk, etc.), mostly raised by Indians, who later melted half his face, hates God, plans to make good with the devil by sending as many evil souls to Hell as he can. No mercy for the wicked (in one issue, he delivers smallpox medicine to a man who had killed a tribe of indians, including a little girl; after he hands him the medicine, he shoots it out of his hand and leaves him to die). Very good. Some kind of reputation feat/score/whatever might be needed. All the really good gunmen/outlaws are always known far and wide.
I love the idea of fantasy races existing in a supernatural western setting. I would suggest staying away from Eladrin though; a little too high-magic. To go along with the setting, each race should have a slang term for it, that's offensive (i.e. Injun, chink...you know what I mean...)
Note: If you want a funny western video series, go to www.channel101.com and look up The Fastest Samurai in the West. It tells the story of Chinky Lee, and his quest to find his sister. Along the way, he fights vampires. Explicit langauge, but funny as hell.
I like the idea of having a handful of legendary gunmen known far and wide; they (especially some sort of organization to do with them) would make good fodder for the higher levels of the campaign without necessarily having to resort to magical badguys.
Ditching the Eladrin is a good idea, though you could reflavor the ability if you wanted to preserve them. I haven't taken a look at individual races yet, though I like the idea of changing many of them to reflect more accurately Western stereotypes. Just off the top of my head:
Elves = Native Americans, natives who are fighting against the encroachment of "civilization" and are generally hunted by the other races. Some elves have been semi-assimilated into civilized Western society as workers and religious converts. Dragonborn would be a good fit for this niche as well.
Dwarves = Workers from south of the border. They have different accents, different customs, and are generally treated as second class citizens, but they are hard workers and total bad*****es when the occasion calls for it.
Halflings = Like the Chinese were, halflings are strangers in a strange land who are accepted even less than other second-class races out there. Because of their small stature they are physically dominated by the other races and tend to hold jobs building railroads and other dangerous occupations. They are heirs to an ancient and proud culture, and some find success as local merchants and frontier doctors.
Dragonborn = After the recent war, many of the Dragonborn who were previously held in bondage moved from their old plantations to the wide open lands out west. They are usually prevented from owning land, but some find good work as ranch hands (doing the toughest jobs) and sharecroppers working for a landlord.
Tiefling = As an aristocratic class in the "old world", tieflings are rarely seen on the frontier. Those that do find their way out there are resented immediately, but seem to have a preternatural talent for insinuating themselves into positions of power. Tieflings are especially well represented in the railroad companies, and tend to have few compunctions about what they are willing to do to amass wealth and power.
Obviously these racial backgrounds are pretty rooted in American folklore; you could change historical events like the civil war and the Mexican border and still get what you're looking for, but I typed these up quickly. What do you think?
The only racial traits you'd really have to change would be...Dwarven Weapon Proficiency (doesn't really fit for them to be wielding hammers primarily in this setting...maybe trade for shotgun. I love the idea of a dwarf with a shotgun)...possibly Encumbered Speed, simply because they won't be wearing armor or anything...maybe Stand Your Ground, if there aren't many forced movement powers. Everybody else pretty much the same...although Fire Resistance seems a little out of place, as there won't be too much in the way of fire attack powers, will there? Maybe steal an Eladrin trait to make up for it, like Eladrin Education.
I like the description of the Sniper. He'd be best at getting around cover, but only if he himself isn't under fire. He's the Striker and would replace Rangers.
The Gunslinger works okay, but I'd rather say he's able to fire at multiple targets from cover and keep them pinned. He's the Controller.
The Tactician (what you call the sheriff) can rally allies and gives people bonuses to moving while exposed. He's the Leader and would replace Warlords.
The Brawler is not so great with a gun. But he excels at moving quickly at open ground from concealed position to concealed position, until he gets within reach of an opponent, and then in hand-to-hand combat, he's unmatched. He's the Defender and his job is to get to the opponents while the Gunslinger has him pinned down, and then taking him out. He replaces Rogues.
I don't think there's a real place for Fighters in this world because melee combat isn't the same. A fighter would do fine in a tavern brawl, but otherwise is pretty useless in a gunfight.
This I think would better reflect the feeling of an Old West gunfight and gives everybody something productive to do.
Another thing to keep in mind is that gunshots are kind of like Save or Die effects. If you shoot someone in the open, they should probably be maimed or dead. That's why the first thing gunslingers do is take cover. Hit point loss, in this scenario would simply mean that your under fire under cover and represents luck or karma even more than it already does. I might even rename Bloodied to "Harried" to reflect that the person with less than half hit points still hasn't really been injured -- it's more psychological than physical.
Only with the final shot is the person wounded, incapacitated or dead. I'd let someone use an action point to turn a killing blow into a maiming blow, rendering them Slowed, unable to use Standard or Opportunity Actions, and able to use only one Move or Minor action per turn, so they can get out of the battle and to a doc.
Wizards become Wandslingers, using their wand implement like a pistol to keep opponents pinned using AoE attacks.
Warlocks become Staffslingers, using staff implements like rifles to blast at people.
Swordmages become the Illuminated. Instead of enchanted swords, they tatoo themselves with runes to make them better brawlers.
Artificers don't have to change as the Arcane Leaders they are.
Divine casters need a make over as well.
Clerics can stay as they are as divine healers.
Paladins, however, need to ditch the sword. They should be known as Cavalry and use their divine providence to protect themselves and their steed to cover ground quickly and get into close melee without getting hit by gunfire or spellfire.
The Primal classes should be reserved for the indigineous peoples, who I don't think should be limited to any race. There should be Dwarven brawlers and Dwarven braves (barbarians). There should be elven staffslingers and elven medicine men (druids). Human tacticians and human storytellers (bards).
Another thing to keep in mind is that gunshots are kind of like Save or Die effects. If you shoot someone in the open, they should probably be maimed or dead. That's why the first thing gunslingers do is take cover. Hit point loss, in this scenario would simply mean that your under fire under cover and represents luck or karma even more than it already does.
Good point. I realize that reasonably explaining the gun issue is a touchy point, because it seems like 1 shot should leave an opponent dead or incapacitated, and that some players might be ruined on the whole setting because that isn't so. That being said I'm hoping that my players aren't among them. Like you suggest, I'm just going to emphasize HP as representing your inherent luck and ability to dodge the worst of a bullet shot, and the closer you are to 0 the more exhausted you are getting. As for the action point to stay conscious, I'll keep that in mind as I go about designing the system, because it fits well with the Western Archetype. But I sort of like the idea that 4E doesn't have a weird "in between" status for not-quite-unconscious characters.
As for wizards, warlocks etc., I'm sure they could be used like that. Personally I want the setting to have a more gritty mundane feeling, so I'm ditching fireballs and eldritch blasts and their like altogether. Players won't have access to flashy magic of any sort, and might encounter NPCs like that a few times in the entire campaign. I want to have a divine class, but they will focus on the "divine wrath" aspect of religion and also have less flashy powers. They're powers will be flavored so that you can never be 100% sure that they are getting divine intervention, or it's all just luck/ coincidence/ extreme skill.
I might try to make the "brawler" concept an ability available to anyone willing to take a few feats. That's because I don't want there to be a melee dedicated class in the Wild West, but I think that it would be a fun character concept to have a ranged character that can close fast and take an enemy out under his friends covering fire. Barfights (a must in this setting) would also be a good reason to specialize in brawling. But the undisputed combat King of the west is the firearm, and every class should fundamentally reflect that.
Thanks for all the feedback, things are moving along great! I'll post the first three classes as soon as possible. One thing I'm working on now is trying to play down the importance of Dex, which in a ranged combat only setting becomes exceedingly important! Any ideas? :/
Well, some attacks -- particularly those that help ameliorate the penalties of cover (which becomes huge in this world) -- could use Wisdom (i.e., perceptive ability to see weak points in cover or when someone's hat just peeks up over the fence post). Snipers -- folks who take their time to set up a single shot in a round -- might use Int on a lot of attacks. I like using Con, not Str, on being able to shoot a shotgun accurately at close distance by compensating for kickback.
Str is key in close brawls.
Cha, as usual, is a skill reserved mostly for leaders.
As for defenses, I'm thinking you need to adjust them for the setting. You can't dodge a bullet, so Reflex should be lessened in importance. How's this...
AC/Reflex (Dex) (usually the same, since few people wear armor) for brawls/melee, and ocassionally for firearm attacks
Will (Wis) for psychic attacks (which would be few and far between) and possibly some firearm attacks that involve feints (such as drawing two guns, firing one as an intentional miss, and then firing the second where you anticipate the person is going to starle to -- Will resists the startle)
Fort (Con) for disease and poison, rarely used.
Luck (Cha) applies to firearm attacks at close quarters. By all rights you should be dead -- only your Luck defense can save you (and plenty of folks managed fluke escapes in gunfights at close quarters)
Position (Int) defense applies against attacks that try to hit you around superior cover. Position allows you to find the best place to minimize your exposure.
As for defenses, I'm thinking you need to adjust them for the setting.
You know, I never though about that. You make a good point, since Will is unlikely to be targeted and Ref and AC are very similar if you don't use armor.
I like the idea of having AC and three other defenses, to keep things simple, and pairing ability scores on defenses so that every ability score is at least useful. Purely as brainstorming:
AC: Int and Ref as usual, Targeted by your standard ranged attacks. +1 or +2 AC armors are available, though they reduce mobility and even accuracy when worn, so are generally unpopular.
Fort: Str and Con. Resists attacks that have debilitating effects like ongoing damage or physical status effects.
Ref: Area of effect attacks often target reflex, as do many special gun attacks, esp those from snipers and accuracy minded character builds.
Luck: Awesome idea! Big whopper attacks target luck, as well as many of the more bizarre enemy abilities like magic.
I know you can't dodge bullets, but . . . game balance and all. Reflex reflects inherent "quickness", ducking under cover after taking a shot, moving quickly etc.
I'm going to go ahead and throw Con at the shotgun for now, see how it works out. Probably a good idea, it feels right.
Thanks!
As for defenses, I'm thinking you need to adjust them for the setting. You can't dodge a bullet, so Reflex should be lessened in importance. How's this...
AC/Reflex (Dex) (usually the same, since few people wear armor) for brawls/melee, and ocassionally for firearm attacks
Will (Wis) for psychic attacks (which would be few and far between) and possibly some firearm attacks that involve feints (such as drawing two guns, firing one as an intentional miss, and then firing the second where you anticipate the person is going to starle to -- Will resists the startle)
Fort (Con) for disease and poison, rarely used.
Luck (Cha) applies to firearm attacks at close quarters. By all rights you should be dead -- only your Luck defense can save you (and plenty of folks managed fluke escapes in gunfights at close quarters)
Position (Int) defense applies against attacks that try to hit you around superior cover. Position allows you to find the best place to minimize your exposure.
I dunno if that would work...powers should determine which defense is attacked, not the situation. If you want to keep that concept, maybe make Luck and Position feats that increase your proper defense when in that situation.
Other than that, AC and Reflex should be folded together, as in general no one will be wearing armor; also, remember that in 4E, each defense keys to 2 ability scores; Str or Con for Fort, Dex or Int for Ref, and Wis or Cha for Will. That represents better in my opinion a guy that uses his brain to avoid attacks.
EDIT: Now that I see SteelMirror has posted (and found we apparently keep very similar forum-viewing hours), I have some stuff for that too.
I like the idea of Luck replacing Will. That makes it a little easier to justify having. As for armor, there might be a little, but it still seems a waste to have both an AC and a Reflex. Star Wars just combined them, I think that works better.
Oh yeah, and as for a Brawler base class...I think it might need to be addressed, or at least each class should have a Brawler feature they can choose or something...Elves would still use melee weapons like spears sometimes, and I still think Dwarves should use/carry hammers and axes, I just think it would be kinda a racial ability to give them. Also, Dragonborn seem to me that they'd often use improvised farming tools, maybe halflings still using weapons from their homeland, and I can see Tieflings using dueling weapons, like rapiers and other swords. Yes, I just went into a lot of stereotypes there, so sue me; RPGs are one thing you kinda have to do that. It's just as racist to think that all Eladrins know how to use longswords, and that all dragonborn get angry when they're bloodied.
I might try to make the "brawler" concept an ability available to anyone willing to take a few feats. That's because I don't want there to be a melee dedicated class in the Wild West, but I think that it would be a fun character concept to have a ranged character that can close fast and take an enemy out under his friends covering fire.
Here's a crazy idea... each character gets two roles -- a ranged role (Gunslinger (controller), Sniper (striker), Ringleader (leader)) -- and a melee role (Wrastler (defender), Brawler (striker), Instigator (leader)). You get a set of Powers useful for guns and a set of powers useful in melee combat. There are no ranged defenders and no melee controllers.
If you want to add low-grade magic, I'd make it a multiclass only class. For instance a "shaman" would take multiclass feats to get shamanistic powers, but you wouldn't have anybody take a shaman-level class. Multiclass powers would be designated Ranged or Melee and could only be swapped out for a ranged or melee role's power, respectively.
Some multiclassing I'd allow...
Wandslinger (arcane ranged striker)
Artifcer (arcane ranger leader)
Medicine Man (divine ranged leader)
Shaman (divine ranged controller)
Preacher (divine ranged striker)
If you want to keep that concept, maybe make Luck and Position feats that increase your proper defense when in that situation.
I like this better than my suggestion
Other than that, AC and Reflex should be folded together, as in general no one will be wearing armor; also, remember that in 4E, each defense keys to 2 ability scores; Str or Con for Fort, Dex or Int for Ref, and Wis or Cha for Will. That represents better in my opinion a guy that uses his brain to avoid attacks.
I like that, it simplifies things, and in general simpler=better.
So now we have:
Fort: based on Str or Con
Ref: based on Dex or Int
Luck: based on Wis or Cha
I'll toss out some feats soon that conditionally provide bonuses to certain defenses.
You need a combat mechanic that approximates being pinned by gunfire.
I've tried to do that with the Gunfighter, linked to here. Essentially if the enemy moves out from cover, the Gunfighter gets to make a free attack against them. Should I make it even more restrictive? I was trying to be careful and not make the defender too good at his job, for fear that he will always lock down the enemies and only the PCs will ever have mobility. If you have the time, please take a look at this class (I've only made the 1st level so far) and tell me what you think!
Oh yeah, and as for a Brawler base class...I think it might need to be addressed, or at least each class should have a Brawler feature they can choose or something...Elves would still use melee weapons like spears sometimes, and I still think Dwarves should use/carry hammers and axes, I just think it would be kinda a racial ability to give them. Also, Dragonborn seem to me that they'd often use improvised farming tools, maybe halflings still using weapons from their homeland, and I can see Tieflings using dueling weapons, like rapiers and other swords. Yes, I just went into a lot of stereotypes there, so sue me; RPGs are one thing you kinda have to do that. It's just as racist to think that all Eladrins know how to use longswords, and that all dragonborn get angry when they're bloodied.
Yeah . . . you guys have convinced me on the melee thing. I'll have to figure that out after I get the 3 starter classes out there. . .
btw Azrael, I like the way you think. And wrecan, thanks for the advice! I'm officially crediting you from now on in the genesis of the 4E Wild West RPG, thanks for all the input!
Weapon (Group)
Simple Melee
Club (Improvised, Blunt)
Knife [as Dagger] (Blade)
Bayonet [as Dagger, but can attach to Rifle] (Blade)
Javelin (Spear)
War Club [as Mace] (Blunt)
Sickle (Improvised, Blade)
Spear (Spear)
Axe [as Battleaxe, but 1d8 dmg] (Improvised, Axe)
Hammer [as Warhammer, but 1d8 dmg] (Improvised, Blunt)
Pick [as War pick, but 1d6 dmg] (Improvised, Axe*)
Chain [+2 prof, 1d8 dmg, reach)
Greatclub (Blunt)
Scythe (Improvised, Blade)
Rifle with Bayonet [as Bayonet, but with Reach] (Blade, Spear)
Simple Ranged
Sling (Sling)
Long Bow (Bow)
Short Bow (Bow)
Archaic Melee
Tomahawk [as Hand Axe] (Axe)
Sword [as Longsword] (Blade)
Short Sword (Blade)
Rapier (Blade)
Saber [as Scimitar] (Blade)
Maul (Blunt)
Longspear (Spear)
Archaic Ranged
Hand Crossbow (Bow)
Shuriken (Blade)
Common Firearms
Revolver
Shotgun
Rifle
(Wasn't sure what you were wanting to do for weapon groups on these...all just firearms? Handgun/longarm? Each to their own? Etc.)
Exotic Firearms
Gatling Gun
Musket Pistol [or maybe in Archaic Ranged]
Musket [as above; can also mount a Bayonet]
Cannon
...okay, I know that there should be more, but I can't think of any.
I also did a little work on feats, but its late, I'll post it tomorrow.
Simple firearms:
musket (pistol and large)
shotgun
Winchester Rifle (small caliber, large mag)
Common firearms:
revolver
.50 Rifle (large caliber, bolt action)
Each type of firearm would of course have its own variants. For example, the revolver proficiency lets you use a Colt .45, a .38 revolver, or the Peacemaker uber-revolver. Small differences in stats (or abilities like a magic wpn) would differentiate them.
Military firearms:
Gatling gun
Cannon
Introducing: Shotgun revolver! (thanks sigil)
. . .
. . .
you're right, there have to be more!
As for more guns in general. There are also the fun LeMat Revolver; it was a revolver that had a separate 16 gauge barrel underneath that could fire buckshot.
You could divide cannon into; Smoothbore Gun, Howiters, Mortars, Naval Guns, Rifled Guns.
You could add as a separate group not part of firearms; dynamite, mines, torpedoes, rockets, grenades.
I would put the Winchester Repeating Rifle under both Simple and Common. As one of the most diverse and abundant guns in the West I would say it would fall under both. Since the farmer yeah would have it, but many, many people used it as their primary firearm when trying to kill someone.
As for more guns in general. There are also the fun LeMat Revolver; it was a revolver that had a separate 16 gauge barrel underneath that could fire buckshot.
You could divide cannon into; Smoothbore Gun, Howiters, Mortars, Naval Guns, Rifled Guns.
You could add as a separate group not part of firearms; dynamite, mines, torpedoes, rockets, grenades.
Pretty much everyone in the setting will have prof with simple firearms, and certainly everyone who has Common firearm prof will already have simple. I agree, every Wild West character should be able to do some damage with "the gun that won the West"!
Revolver shotgun sounds bad**s, /added to military firearms. I do want to add explosives eventually, but I don't want them to be used as grenades commonly by the PCs because that doesn't fit my concept of the Wild West archetype. Rules would probably be simple enough to make, though.
This would be more something that a villain would use, but the use of chlorine gas was explored around the time of the Civil War, never used but the idea and method of use was there.
I would also delve into accessories like scopes and stocks for revolvers (be little bonuses).
Rifle and Big Revolver only, of course. No sniper-shotgun.
OOOO, extra-long barrel Navy Colt with a scope (forgot who it was, but one famous outlaw used to whack people over the head with his Navy Colts barrels since they were extra-long).
Awesome. That reminds me, I need to think about melee rules . . .
Or maybe Shotguns deal increased damage while other weapons gain bonuses to hit. This could also work in your favor for some of the various classes abilities. Like the sniper like class getting a to hit bonus starting at 10 squares (or more) away and becoming a penalty at 5 or closer squares. Showing that she is used to shooting at things farther away and gets nervous when people get in her face.
The setting sounds like a lot of fun. Be careful not to stray too far away from core ideas though or it will take too long to explain to your players.
Azrael_Macool: The system rewards you for staying away in other ways, such as not provoking opportunity attacks (which can be done at range).
iamajackalope: Be careful not to stray too far away from core ideas though or it will take too long to explain to your players.
Agreed to both. I want to use existing mechanics of OA and marking, etc., adapted to work in ranged combat, as a way to keep gunfights from devolving into charge-the-enemy melee brawls (though some characters might indeed adopt this strategy, it wouldn't be optimal for the entire group to do so). Bonus damage, on the other hand, is potentially unbalancing and a complete departure from existing weapon treatment in 4E. I think the system as outlined preserves the feel of 4E while making a distinct gun combat system.
Firearms have an optimal short range, and beyond that suffer a -4 instead of the normal -2 to hit penalty. Most powers are usable only within the firearm's optimal range, beyond that you use ranged basic attacks.
I like that. Guns can shoot quite a ways, but that doesn't mean that you can effectively employ them at that distance. For example, a 9mm bullet can travel up to 2 miles (if fired at the exact right trajectory, under perfect conditions, with a tail wind, etc), but you'll never hit anything at anywhere near that distance with a pistol.
The Gunslinger (defender) marks targets by taking a shot at them, just like a fighter (assuming they are within optimal range). A marked target suffers -2 to hit against targets other than the Gunslinger. Additionally, if they move or end a round without superior cover, the Gunslinger gets a ranged basic attack against them.
That seems like it might be a little excessive. I would say that they have to be under cover, but not necessarily superior cover, and eliminate the thing about them moving. Otherwise, someone who moves will get hit twice, once for moving, and another for not being under superior cover because they already used their move action and didnt want to give up an attack. I also think that restricting movement shouldnt be limited entirely to defenders (see comment below and my proposed fix).
You need a combat mechanic that approximates being pinned by gunfire. Otherwise, given how 4E combat mechanics work, there's no reason people couldn't simply run and tackle someone on their turn. I'd say if you've been targeted by a gun-based attack, until the end of your next turn, your movement is limited to shifting. That makes a gunslinger's ability to target multiple opponents key -- he can keep opponents pinned down by gunfire. Alternately, that can be the class ability of the gunslinger class.
I would use the gunslinger ability suggested above. Then implement a rule that guns threaten targets within their optimal range who are not under superior cover. That way, enemies will think twice about charging anyone with a gun, not just defenders. It also fits with the idea of people popping up to take shots at their enemies, then crouching back down (taking superior cover) to reload.
Here's a crazy idea... each character gets two roles -- a ranged role (Gunslinger (controller), Sniper (striker), Ringleader (leader)) -- and a melee role (Wrastler (defender), Brawler (striker), Instigator (leader)). You get a set of Powers useful for guns and a set of powers useful in melee combat. There are no ranged defenders and no melee controllers.
If you want to add low-grade magic, I'd make it a multiclass only class. For instance a "shaman" would take multiclass feats to get shamanistic powers, but you wouldn't have anybody take a shaman-level class. Multiclass powers would be designated Ranged or Melee and could only be swapped out for a ranged or melee role's power, respectively.
Both very good ideas. I used the multiclass-only idea for psionics. I didn't want telepaths that rivaled archmages, just characters of other professions that were more "sensitive" to the supernatural than other humans.
The two roles idea isn't entirely new, as the paladin definitely seems like a dual role class, primarily a defender with a little bit of leader thrown in, although I like the take of separating the roles the way you did so the player can just pick (I want ranged striker and melee defender) instead of creating all the classes that would be needed to fill the potential combinations and hoping you created what the player wants.
That seems like it might be a little excessive. I would say that they have to be under cover, but not necessarily superior cover, and eliminate the thing about them moving. Otherwise, someone who moves will get hit twice, once for moving, and another for not being under superior cover because they already used their move action and didnt want to give up an attack. I also think that restricting movement shouldnt be limited entirely to defenders (see comment below and my proposed fix).
It's an opportunity attack, so the gunslinger can only take 1 per turn no matter how many are provoked. You did convince me to eliminate the OA for characters not behind superior cover, however.
I would use the gunslinger ability suggested above. Then implement a rule that guns threaten targets within their optimal range who are not under superior cover. That way, enemies will think twice about charging anyone with a gun, not just defenders. It also fits with the idea of people popping up to take shots at their enemies, then crouching back down (taking superior cover) to reload.
The problem with that is that then all characters act very much like defenders, and get off a lot of shots. Plus, any time an enemy jumps out from under cover every single PC will take a shot at him, which quickly gets overwhelming. I like the idea of spending a standard action to essentially "threaten" a field of fire in front of you, allowing you to make OA's against moving opponents. Gunfighters (the class) improve on this somewhat by automatically threatening a marked opponent and getting some bonuses to OA's.
Opponents are unlikely to try and charge you and go to melee because an opponent moving into a square adjacent to a character provokes an OA, and if that hits the rest of their turn is canceled.
The two roles idea isn't entirely new, as the paladin definitely seems like a dual role class, primarily a defender with a little bit of leader thrown in, although I like the take of separating the roles the way you did so the player can just pick (I want ranged striker and melee defender) instead of creating all the classes that would be needed to fill the potential combinations and hoping you created what the player wants.
Instead of every character choosing a close and long range role, I'm thinking about the following.
Your long range role of striker, defender, leader etc. is clearly a result of your class. Some classes might have features that can be creatively adapted for use in melee situations, but the design process won't try and emphasize any class as excelling in any role in melee combat. (Edit: apparently I lied. The Tactician has adopted a minor penchant for melee as part of his design).
You can decide to emphasize the melee aspect of your character through the selection of a few simple feats. Your "role" in melee combat isn't the result of choosing one rigidly designed archetype, but is rather an outgrowth of your ability and feat selection combined with the tactics you employ. If you want to be a melee striker, you choose a high Str score for high damage and employ damaging melee weapons. Since the enemy will likely have no melee weapons at all, you will be able to do a lot of damage and prevent them from firing back. If you would rather be a melee "Controller" type, you focus on bull rushing or tripping opponents from behind their cover, leaving them easy targets for your teammates to single out with firearms. As a melee defender choose abilities and feats that give you high defenses, then attempt to grapple enemies (aided by feat bonuses).
In all of these examples the primary benefit that you gain from melee combat is that most enemies are simply not trained or prepared to face you in close quarters, where guns are unreliable weapons and their powers don't help much. The downside is that they shoot at you while you are trying to get up close, and its a lot easier to kill someone with bullets than it is with fists or knives. So melee combat would usually be the result of a specialized character build (but one that needs to be supported by other characters' cover fire) or accidental situations where two opponents find themselves in close quarters having run out of bullets, and the only choice is to move in swinging.
That's my take on it so far, obviously the mechanics are currently lagging behind the concepts.
Thanks for the posts!
Simple Firearms:
Musket Pistol
Musket
Shotgun
Rifle
Common Firearms:
Revolver
Heavy Revolver
Long Rifle
Etc. Making minor adjustments based on models, while kinda cool, is a pain in the ass.
Oh, also, Derringer should be on there somewhere.
Oh, I'll post some of the feats.
Dwarven Weapon Training: +2 dmg and Prof with Hammer, Throwing Hammer, and improvised weapons
Elven Warrior: +2 dmg and Prof with Longbow, Shortbow, and all spears.
Tieflin Duelist: +2 dmg and prof with Rapier, Saber, and Musket Pistol (this might need some more, bu I dunno what else would be considered dueling weapons. Maybe Revolver, but it would get so much use as to be unbalancing, I think, maybe. i dunno. I'm tired.)
Etc. Making minor adjustments based on models, while kinda cool, is a pain in the ass.
Oh, also, Derringer should be on there somewhere.
I was thinking, for other models of revolvers etc, of treating them like magical weapons. They cost as much as magic weapons and give you bonus attack and damage, more crit damage, and an ability. For example the Peacemaker is an intimidating weapon, I see it as being the Holy Avenger of firearms (without the religious claptrap, of course).
Derringers are awesome, they'll definitely end up there somewhere. Feats look good, it'll be fun to see how racial archtypes evolve when placed in the West.
I also gave in to temptation and posted a very short adventure arc summary, I hid it in the spoiler so if you don't care don't read it and just comment on the monster ideas
.Dinosaurs: I like the idea of using an arid, unexplored wasteland just being settled as the default region of choice. The inclusion of a few roaming dinosaurs in the wilderness helps the "lost world" feel, and they are especially concentrated around rivers and natural watering holes. This makes conflict with encroaching settlers inevitable, and they are pushed back a little more every year. Still a hazard for travelers off the beaten path. Railroads finance their extermination (possible early level adventure hook) since they are a collision hazard to quickly moving trains, especially at night. The native elves rely on them as a food source.
Brown Dragon: (Brown Dragon Article) I loved this monster as soon as I saw its pic, and it occurred to me that it would be an excellent high level addition to the Western campaign because of its emphasis on sandstorms as fluff. I thought of the following adventure arc outline to star the Dragon.
Brown Dragon Arc:
PCs are called to defend frontier town from aggressive elves making off with settlers nearby. They track the elves into a camp and defeat them, to learn that they were a hunting band sent out by an alliance of elf tribes serving a mysterious new leader.
The PCs report back and a cavalry detachment is sent to establish a fort and defend the town. PCs hired as scouts for cavalry, but are disenchanted with them when they scout a peaceful tribe of elves in the area that is later annihilated by the army detachment, down to the last child. PCs must decide whether to side with the cavalry in the next raid (killing innocent civilians) or fighting the "legitimate" authorities.
PCs (hopefully) defend the innocent tribe, and get information as a thanks. Or they get the information from tortured prisoners, if it comes to that. The leader of the tribal alliance is planning to oust settlers from their land, and is based in a sacred mesa in the middle of the deep desert. PCs travel there, fight the leader and his minions who reveals that the kidnapped victims were to be sacraficed to their god. The god is the brown dragon, which leaves the mesa for parts unknown when it doesn't get the snacks it was expecting. PCs wander back to civilization.
The army fort is destroyed when the PCs get back, shell-shocked witnesses describe the dragon as the culprit. Dragon is digesting its meal for now, but every few days it wipes out another couple of settlements, slowly approaching the main town. Now PCs must stop it before it destroys and consumes the entire town.
PCs are called to defend frontier town from aggressive elves making off with settlers nearby. They track the elves into a camp and defeat them, to learn that they were a hunting band sent out by an alliance of elf tribes serving a mysterious new leader.
The PCs report back and a cavalry detachment is sent to establish a fort and defend the town. PCs hired as scouts for cavalry, but are disenchanted with them when they scout a peaceful tribe of elves in the area that is later annihilated by the army detachment, down to the last child. PCs must decide whether to side with the cavalry in the next raid (killing innocent civilians) or fighting the "legitimate" authorities.
PCs (hopefully) defend the innocent tribe, and get information as a thanks. Or they get the information from tortured prisoners, if it comes to that. The leader of the tribal alliance is planning to oust settlers from their land, and is based in a sacred mesa in the middle of the deep desert. PCs travel there, fight the leader and his minions who reveals that the kidnapped victims were to be sacraficed to their god. The god is the brown dragon, which leaves the mesa for parts unknown when it doesn't get the snacks it was expecting. PCs wander back to civilization.
The army fort is destroyed when the PCs get back, shell-shocked witnesses describe the dragon as the culprit. Dragon is digesting its meal for now, but every few days it wipes out another couple of settlements, slowly approaching the main town. Now PCs must stop it before it destroys and consumes the entire town.
Just a toss-out thought to that last bit you have there, Steel: Maybe things like your conventional monstrous humanoids, if you wanted to include them, would fit in more as a one-off Demonic possession mutation? Not anything one would need pre-made stats for, just a thought for GMs who's want to include a familiar face. Personally I agree that your current race list is just fine, no need to throw in entire race additions when you can, for the most part, play with differing tribes, settlements, and colonies.
The fighting style you propose is one that is primarily ranged and from cover. So you want creatures that work well in that sort of milieu. Manticores work well. Stirges are a good low-level creature. An ocassional dragon. Of course, anything horse-like will fit (pegasus, unicorn, hippogriff). And of course lots of gun-toting orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, drow and gnolls. A lot of fey creatures work well here. For devils, spiked and spiny devils are nice. Actually, a beholder fits ideally, using its eye beams as sort of natural firearms!
But mostly, you'll want to design new variants of creatures to de-emphasize the melee aspect and emphasize the ranged aspect.
Heck, I just realized playing an eladrin with his fey step to get him from cover to cover without exposure, wold be ideal!
(For a cool Greyhawk tie-in, you could imply/state that this is the world form which the demigod Murlynd hails.)
Zoom out the scale a little. Maybe have 20 or 30 ft per square. In this way you could use normal D&D combat abstracted to gunfighting with a few modifications. The gunslinger could threaten the adjacent squares because anybody doing more than a shift (darting from close cover to cover) would be out in the open long enough to get shot. You'd want to allow two people to occupy the same square however for close combat, which would probably mean you'd want to increase the square size as well. Also someone might have said this before but the Star Wars Saga Edition rules have a few things you might want to use, like the condition track, and it already uses reflex as the core defense value.
I thought of another weapon Prof to add to the Teifling Duelist feat...Derringer! A perfect gentleman's weapon.
The idea of changing the scale is doable...but it would screw with a lot of other stuff. Such as weapon ranges...character speed...how would shift work? Maybe each character can move 2 squares, an with 2 move actions can shift 1...but it seems it would be even more complicated in the long run. But maybe not, it should be looked into.
Some more feat ideas...while most of the weapon group-affiliated feats are still workable, substituting the new weapon groups for the ones in the book (which reminds me, one-handed improvised weapon and two-handed improvised weapon are statistically the same, but they are in the Improvised Weapon group instead of in none, which means Weapon Focus et al can be applied to them), fr instance, any feat that applies to heavy or light blades can apply to blades, hammer feats can apply to blunt, scimitar dance changed to saber dance, etc. But, I was also thinking of changing certain feats to apply to firearms (incidentally, I think now that Shotgun should just be in the shotgun group, Rifle and Long Rifle in the Rifle group, and Revolver and Heavy Revolver in the Revolver group, as there are very distinct ways of fighting with them.), linking it with the weapon group its most like. Right off top my head, Revolver=Light Blades, Shotgun=Axes and Hammers, and Rifle=Heavy Blades. So that feats associated with them would apply to those weapons. And I don't mean that one feat would apply to both, that would be stupid, like this:
Blade Opportunist: As PHB
Gun Opportunist: Applies to Revolvers and Rifles
Nimble Blade: Applies to Blades group.
Nimble Sixgun: Applies to Revolvers
Two-Weapon Fighting and Two-Weapon Defense: Applies to ranged and melee, instead of just melee (think of it like distracting with your other weapon.), and TWD only gives +1 Ref, as there is no AC (if this is unbalancing, maybe +1 Luck as well)
Deadly Axe: as PHB
Deadly Shotgun: Applies to Shotgun (I know, shotguns are already high crit...I'll address that a bit below)
Distant Shot: Reduces the long range penalty to -2 instead of -4.
Hammer Rhythm: Applies to Blunt
Shotgun Rhythm: Applies to Shotgun (I like this one a lot. I think it fits)
Blade Opportunity: As Heavy Blade Opportunity, but applies to Blades.
Rifle Opportunity: Applies to Rifles
Blade Precision: As Light Blade Precision, but applies to Blades. Maybe up the bonus to +3 or something, because in general, Large enemies will be more rare than in a D&D game. Something, this needs to be addressed.
Revolver Precision: Applies to Revolvers, as above.
Greased Lightning: As Lightning Arc, but only applies when you're wielding wielding 2 Revolvers, and requires Two-Weapon Fighting.
And a Mastery for all of them. I don't wanna bother typing them all.
Now, as for shotguns... you have them now with +3 prof, 1d10 dmg, 5/10 range, high crit and kickback, with buckshot adding brutal 1 and bird shot 2d4 dmg, +1 atk.
I feel, either as just something it can do, or a feat, or possibly even a power, you can shoot both barrels at once to make a spray, changing it to a close burst 3 or something. If its just something they can do, or maybe even if its a feat, get rid of high crit property. If its a power (either only 1 class can get it, or maybe as a feat that allows you to trade one of your at-wills/encounters for it, or whatever), it can probably stay. If it stays, maybe change Deadly Shotgun to Brutal Shotgun, giving it Brutal 1, which stacks with buckshot (making it Brutal 2). Any ideas?
I like the concept of changing the scale, but I also agree that it is probably not doable as suggested. I would rather bend the normal movement and space rules to fit with guns than start from scratch. It is worth a closer look, though, and maybe I'll come up with some concepts that borrow from it somehow to make guns a little more believable. Maybe zooming out to 10 ft. or so would be easier? At first I thought it would be completely impossible, but I'll think on it some more and see what happens.
Monstrous humanouds -->demon incarnations does sound pretty cool. It also reminds me, Vampires and Lycanthropes would be natural additions to the cast of monstrous enemies. My first thought is to make them offspring of people who conceived while being posessed by demons. I would also make it so that their conditions are not communicable.
Good batch of suggestions, I'll post again later tonight or tomorrow.
I was thinking about how I would stat dinos to fill that role, and I will post them when I'm happy with them. But as a quick exercise tell me what you think of the concept:
Triceratops migration is threatening the local rail, so railroad company puts 100$ bounty on each pair of triceratops horns turned in. PCs take job. Tris travel in small herds, are faster than PCs, are very tough and damaging in melee, and are a few levels higher than the PCs to boot. As a result the preferred way to kill them is to run them down on horseback, shooting them the whole time and trying too avoid their deadly charges. Would make for an interesting combat/skill challenge combo. The PCs also have to fight off mercenaries who take the easy way out and try to just steal triceratops horns from slayers. As boss fight, PCs fight a T-rex with the same tactics (basically a solo version).
Well, it's been fun sharing campaign ideas but I feel bad for neglecting the classes and mechanics of the system. I'll try to get back to that in my next posts, stay tuned!
Each type of firearm would of course have its own variants. For example, the revolver proficiency lets you use a Colt .45, a .38 revolver, or the Peacemaker uber-revolver. Small differences in stats (or abilities like a magic wpn) would differentiate them.
One thought to help differentiate between a small-caliber, medium caliber and large caliber weapon could be to make use of the Brutal key word. By adding it to the type of ammunition used, you can reduce a lot of redundant information dealing with all .44/.45 beaing Brutal 1, .50 being Brutal 2 and so on.
Then, to encourage people to stay at range without making the guns appear too over powered, you could further define the idea of optimal range to include firearms being high-crit within this range or even make them auto-crit in a point-blank range. I don't know about you, but I am fairly certain that a .50 cal at 10 ft would hurt a lot more than one at 30 ft or more away.
Doing this wouldn't add to much damage, just ensure that you do max damage if the enemy gets too close, which if I recall correctly, would be in the range of 8 - 20. To keep things fair, you can also limit attacks that are too close to a basic attack or a few special attacks intended to deal with such situations and get the gunfighter out of there and back into a more advantageous situation.
This might be an unsatisfying way to resolve the problem to some people, but I am confident that Wild West combat still actively encourages ranged fighting. In other words, the addition of firearms and their associated rules still makes fighting at a range the optimal choice, even before selecting powers.
But when you combine the two facets of the system I mentioned above, I don't think we need to rely on things like bonus damage for guns or higher gun damage or anything else to encourage their use. Like in the real world, guns just usually beat melee. I don't think it will be hard, however, to add a class or two and a few feats to allow players who are interested in melee to make viable and very fun brawlers.
PS: If you like what you see here so far I invite you to take a look at the newly expanded (still only to lvl 5) Gunfighter and Sharpshooter.
Agile Shooter: As Agile Hunter, changed to ranged instead of melee.
Lethal Shooter: As Lethal Hunter.
Precise Shooter: As Precise Hunter.
Student of Shooting (or something...I hate naming feats) [Multiclass Sharpshooter]: Requires Dex 13 or Cha 13; You gain training in one of their skills, and may use Deadly Focus once per encounter.
Now, for Gunfighter feats...same thing applies to many Fighter feats...
Distracting Shot: As Distracting Shield, but requires you be wielding a Rifle instead of a shield (this is a slightly more balanced version of the feat you already made, I think. Unless there was a reason it should apply to all opportunity attack targets and not just ones provoked by the Suppressing Fire class feature. Also, is there a reason you changed Point-Blank Shot? I think I see why you might, being able to ignore cover is really good in this system, I'm just checking to see if it was an oversight, and you meant to have both your Heroic feat and the regular Paragon Point-Blank Shot)
Potent Fire: As Potent Challenge, but applies only to Shotgun attacks.
Dance for Me! (very bad name, if descriptive): As Shield Push, but applies only to Revolver attacks.
Gunfighter Multiclass Feat (I'm all out of ideas. Sue me.) [Gunfighter Multiclass]: Requires Dex 13; You gain training in one of their skills, also, choose Revolvers, Shotguns, or Rifles; once per encounter as a free action, you can add a +1 bonus to attack rolls with that weapon group. Whether the attack hits or misses, you mark the target until the end of your next turn.
And, some general feats:
Sly Hunter: As PHB, but works for Longbow, Shortbow, and either Revolvers, Rifles, or Shotguns.
Steady Shooter: As PHB, but works for hand crossbow (as its the only crossbow), and either Revolvers, Rifles, or Shotguns.
(These might need some work. Maybe one applies to two groups and the other applies to the other one...but I'm not sure which would fit where, or what)
There. Until more classes/powers are made, this is about all I think needs adjusting. Everything else either doesn't work at all, or works as written, I think.
Hopefully I can have a prototype Wild West PHB within the week! Until then I will be updating the classes as I go along, PEACH as usual and when everything comes together I'll link it up to the forums here.
I mostly watch a lot of John Wayne movies with my grandma, who's in love with him. Sometimes Clint Eastwood. My main wild west story inspirations are the anime Trigun, and the comic series Jonah Hex. Trigun is technically sci-fi, taking place on a planet which is basically a giant desert. Not only are gunslingers common, they almost always have a weird gimmick; for instance, the main character won't kill anyone, and is also the best gunman alive, there's the preacher/bounty hunter (my favorite Western archetype) who carries a cross that has pistols in one arm, ammo in the other, a rifle in the bottom, and a rocket launcher on the top. Etc.
Jonah Hex, for those who haven't had the pleasure, is a very good comic series, published variously by DC comics and their Vertigo imprint; the titular character is the most feared bounty hunter in the west; a former Confederate soldier, slight supernatural bent (although his Vertigo line had him fighting zombies, spirit-folk, etc.), mostly raised by Indians, who later melted half his face, hates God, plans to make good with the devil by sending as many evil souls to Hell as he can. No mercy for the wicked (in one issue, he delivers smallpox medicine to a man who had killed a tribe of indians, including a little girl; after he hands him the medicine, he shoots it out of his hand and leaves him to die). Very good. Some kind of reputation feat/score/whatever might be needed. All the really good gunmen/outlaws are always known far and wide.
I love the idea of fantasy races existing in a supernatural western setting. I would suggest staying away from Eladrin though; a little too high-magic. To go along with the setting, each race should have a slang term for it, that's offensive (i.e. Injun, chink...you know what I mean...)
Note: If you want a funny western video series, go to www.channel101.com and look up The Fastest Samurai in the West. It tells the story of Chinky Lee, and his quest to find his sister. Along the way, he fights vampires. Explicit langauge, but funny as hell.
Use to love Jonah Hex about 25-30 years ago that is man might have to try to find some old issues to use in my A&8 game
Armor
Cloth +0
Hide Tunic +1
Gunslinger’s Vest +2 -1 check
Body Armor +3 -1 check -1 speed
Plate Armor +5 -2 check -2 speed
Cloth armor is normal clothing. As in D&D, it can be enchanted.
Hide Tunic is a thick leather coat, shirt, pants, and boots made from cured dinosaur hide (or similar material). Aesthetically a character wearing it would look like your stereotypical gunslinger: big boots and a heavy coat.
The Gunslinger's Vest is an item invented by halfling merchants in the West who applied ancient Eastern silk-weaving techniques to giant spider silk to make a bullet resistant but pliable article of clothing. The full armor consists of a vest and slacks spun from cloth interwoven with giant spider silk. It can be cut and dyed so as to appear like any normal clothing the wearer desires.
Body Armor is made of a Gunslinger's vest with thin sheets of alloy sewn within the fabric (the metal is not visible). A wearer of this armor just seems to be wearing a particularly bulky jacket. It is hot and uncomfortable to wear, and so is common only in military operations or among particularly well supplied bandits.
Plate Armor (see awesome pic below) is extremely bulky, extremely uncomfortable, and extremely rare. Because it is so physically encumbering, even the unusual bandits who use it typically don it only in the moments immediately before a firefight. The proficiency feat for Plate armor requires a Str of 14 or better.
The important thing for all these armors is to emphasize that a character wearing them looks like he could still fit in any historical Wild West picture.
Ned Kelly was well, some view him as a folk hero, others an outlaw. You can look him up to get more info, but him and his gang wore body armour, this body armour:
While it was a pretty out there, well okay really out there situation there is a case during the Wild West (well Wild Australia) where basically full-on plate armour was used.
Ned Kelly was well, some view him as a folk hero, others an outlaw. You can look him up to get more info, but him and his gang wore body armour, this body armour:
lol, I like it. I'll stat it out, it would be an unusual option for a PC, but an interesting one. It would also make for an interesting encounter with unusual bandits.
Kudos as well for making me look towards Australia for more inspiration. I'm sure there are other things about that continent and its history that could influence the Wild West setting!
Oh, and in regards to Racial traits...the Dwarf needs a little love, I think. The Dwarven Weapon Proficiency would apply to Hammer and Throwing Hammer, like normal (although the Hammer is a little weaker than a Warhammer), Encumbered Speed is a little bit weaker due to the rareness of heavy armor, and Stand Your Ground might not be as good if there are less forced movement effects; I haven't read through each power, but if you don't include too many forced movements, then I would consider giving them another, relatively minor feature. What, I don't know. Oh yeah, and its racial skill bonuses will need to change...since Dungeoneering should basically be dropped (how many dungeons would be around?), maybe replace it with +2 Religion (I think it fits, both in their normal build and their western stereotype).
Inspired Recovery: As PHB, but requires Healing Touch class feature; change to Wis mod (as Cha isn't really a Tactician thing as written. Also, while this does not interact with the feature the same way it does for the warlord, its still a useful feat)
Tactical Assault: As PHB, but requires Give 110% (see above)
All of the Channel Divinity feats can be changed into Rallying Cry feats. They have the same effects as normal (although Pelor's Radiance might need to be adjusted a bit, and the same with Melora's Tide and Sehanine's Reversal...they hit me as way too supernatural for this class); the requirements are Rallying Cry class feature, and you may only take one. Someone else will have to come up with the names for these feats, because I'm not very good at it.
Tactician Multiclass Feat: Requires Int and Wis 13. You gain training in one of their skills, pick either Rallying Cry: Encouraging Word or Rebel Yell; you may use it 1/day. (I'm not really satisfied with this feat...it makes you eligible for the Rallying Cry feats for one, which none of the regular multiclass feats do...but I don't know what else to make it.)
Of course, I would like to hear from anyone what they think, or if somebody else has made similar feats (I know they're out there) that you think I should take a look at.
The feats:
Close Quarters [Brawler]
Prerequisite: Str 13
Benefit: You gain proficiency with improvised weapons, granting a +1 attack bonus (this also applies to grab and bull rush attempts). If, as part of a charge action, you are hit by an opportunity attack for entering a square adjacent to your target, you may spend a healing surge (which restores no hp) to continue your attack as though you were not hit (you still take the damage, but you are allowed to attack as well).
Improved Grab [Brawler]
Prerequisite: Close Quarters, Con 13
Benefit: You may make a Grab attack as part of a charge instead of a Bull-Rush or Basic Attack. For the purposes of determining if an enemy can escape your grab, add 5 to your Fortitude Defense.
Improved Bull Rush [Brawler]
Prerequisite: Close Quarters, Str 15
Benefit: If you succeed on a Bull Rush, you may push the enemy a number of square equal to your Str modifier. You may still only shift 1 square in pursuit.
Merciless Pugilist [Brawler]
Prerequisite: Close Quarters, A melee weapon proficiency
Benefit: If you have combat advantage against an enemy in melee, you gain a + 3 bonus to damage rolls.
My idea for melee combat as I designed these is that you could become markedly better at melee combat by taking just Close Quarters, which lets you short-circuit the major disincentive for melee combat in the game (the opportunity attack that also cancels the rest of your turn). Following that feat, you could take a secondary feat that would help you get a sort of alternate melee role.
Improved Grab gives you defender, since you can keep an enemy immobilized while pummeling him slowly to death (his physical attacks probably suck, and he can't use ranged attacks while grabbed).
Improved Bull Rush makes you something of a controller, since you can run around knocking people into the open where they are easy prey for your teammates, and have to waste an action next turn getting back under cover (which might provoke OA's from your Gunslinger!)
Merciless Pugilist makes you into a pseudo-rogue, without the flash and awesomeness but still damaging in melee. This one might need the most work of all of them to be exciting.
If you really want to be a melee character you could get all the feats, though thanks to Azrael there are many good feats you would be missing out on by doing so.
I was also curious about the idea of having a melee role selectable as part of the character creation process, that was separate from the ranged role. I didn't like it at first but a lot of posters seemed to be interested in it. So I gave it some thought and this is what I came up with:
When you choose your class, you can also choose to give it some melee punch to fall back on in desperate times. This is accomplished by giving up a major class feature (dependent on class, outlined below). In return you gain the Close Quarters feat as a bonus feat, and may choose 1 other Brawler feat without having to meet the prerequisites.
Gunslinger: Ditch Shootout Style
Sharpshooter: Ditch Fancy Shooting
Tactician: Ditch Combat Inspiration
And voila! Instant secondary melee role. If you opt not to choose a melee role or even purchase it with feats later, you are rewarded with an additional class feature which is quite powerful. If you love melee combat you get it, and everyone is happy!
PEACH, I like this idea but prove me wrong or tell me how you would make it better! Your ideas have already made this system far better than I had hoped!
Maybe some kind of Defensive Brawler feat? Gives you a bonus to Ref when you're adjacent to an opponent or something.
Some more feats that came to mind...
Lucky (name should be changed, to avoid confusion with the Luck defense): You may add your Cha mod (min +1) to defenses against gun attacks made within 3 squares. This might need to be a Paragon feat.
Good Position: You may add your Int mod (min +1) to defenses against gun attacks made 10 squares or farther. This might also be a Paragon feat.
I mentioned making these feats like, a thousand years ago, and have just now gotten to it.
I like the idea of instead of a supernatural class, maybe make it a multiclass only thing, similar to how Spellscars work (although I don't have the FRPG, so I don't know the specifics on them.) If you do make some though, maybe make them of the Supernatural power source, with the Priest (Defender, keys off Religion, maybe small arms only. Similar to Paladin maybe), Shaman (leader, keys off Nature, archaic/simple weapons only or something. Maybe similar to the PHB Cleric), and Occultist (Striker, keys off Arcana, don't really know what their shtick would be, though). That's just off the top of my head, of course.
I like it. I wouldn't ever take the alternate class features thing, but I guess some people might, hence why its optional. The feats are pretty cool too. Close Quarters + Dwarven Weapon Training = Proficiency+1 to attack and +2 dmg with improvised = Win! Something I never took into account though...what about unarmed attacks? Which group are they in?
I think RAW has unarmed as improvised weapons, and if they're not normally I would make them so. It fits the flavor of the feats nicely, so why fight it?
Maybe some kind of Defensive Brawler feat? Gives you a bonus to Ref when you're adjacent to an opponent or something.
I also like the idea of feats that grant positional bonuses to defenses. I haven't had any brain waves on the subject, but yours look workable and I'll keep thinking.
As a side note, I'm working up a feat list for eventual inclusion in the Sunset PHB.
Side-side note- I'm getting tired of always calling it the Wild West mod for 4E, what do you think of shortening it to Sunset for these internal thread references to the rule set?
I like the idea of instead of a supernatural class, maybe make it a multiclass only thing, similar to how Spellscars work (although I don't have the FRPG, so I don't know the specifics on them.) If you do make some though, maybe make them of the Supernatural power source, with the Priest (Defender, keys off Religion, maybe small arms only. Similar to Paladin maybe), Shaman (leader, keys off Nature, archaic/simple weapons only or something. Maybe similar to the PHB Cleric), and Occultist (Striker, keys off Arcana, don't really know what their shtick would be, though). That's just off the top of my head, of course.
I definitely want to give some magic options to players even if full blown classes aren't going to happen, and going the path of the spellscarred seems like a good way to do it. I'll read up on them, I honestly thought they were kind of dumb at first glance and didn't bother exploring it deeper. Your archetypes seem to fit well.
I have been scouring the Rules Compendium, and Student of the Plague, as written, sounds like it would work very well for some kind of supernatural option as written. Unfortunately, there are apparently powers associated with it, that don't seem to be on the Compendium. And I have no access to a FRPG, so unless you do, you're gonna have to make your own powers for it (which, you'd probably end up doing anyway).
.I have been giving a lot of thought to the treatment of melee combat in this setting, and this is what I've come up with so far. I don't know if you guys still read the posts, wrecan, bone_naga, and others, but you heavily influenced my thinking on this aspect of the game and so I would appreciate your opinions of how it turned out! (also thanks!)
Of course, I would like to hear from anyone what they think, or if somebody else has made similar feats (I know they're out there) that you think I should take a look at.
The feats:
Close Quarters [Brawler]
Prerequisite: Str 13
Benefit: You gain proficiency with improvised weapons, granting a +1 attack bonus (this also applies to grab and bull rush attempts). If, as part of a charge action, you are hit by an opportunity attack for entering a square adjacent to your target, you may spend a healing surge (which restores no hp) to continue your attack as though you were not hit (you still take the damage, but you are allowed to attack as well).
Improved Grab [Brawler]
Prerequisite: Close Quarters, Con 13
Benefit: You may make a Grab attack as part of a charge instead of a Bull-Rush or Basic Attack. For the purposes of determining if an enemy can escape your grab, add 5 to your Fortitude Defense.
Improved Bull Rush [Brawler]
Prerequisite: Close Quarters, Str 15
Benefit: If you succeed on a Bull Rush, you may push the enemy a number of square equal to your Str modifier. You may still only shift 1 square in pursuit.
Merciless Pugilist [Brawler]
Prerequisite: Close Quarters, A melee weapon proficiency
Benefit: If you have combat advantage against an enemy in melee, you gain a + 3 bonus to damage rolls.
My idea for melee combat as I designed these is that you could become markedly better at melee combat by taking just Close Quarters, which lets you short-circuit the major disincentive for melee combat in the game (the opportunity attack that also cancels the rest of your turn). Following that feat, you could take a secondary feat that would help you get a sort of alternate melee role.
Improved Grab gives you defender, since you can keep an enemy immobilized while pummeling him slowly to death (his physical attacks probably suck, and he can't use ranged attacks while grabbed).
Improved Bull Rush makes you something of a controller, since you can run around knocking people into the open where they are easy prey for your teammates, and have to waste an action next turn getting back under cover (which might provoke OA's from your Gunslinger!)
Merciless Pugilist makes you into a pseudo-rogue, without the flash and awesomeness but still damaging in melee. This one might need the most work of all of them to be exciting.
If you really want to be a melee character you could get all the feats, though thanks to Azrael there are many good feats you would be missing out on by doing so.
I was also curious about the idea of having a melee role selectable as part of the character creation process, that was separate from the ranged role. I didn't like it at first but a lot of posters seemed to be interested in it. So I gave it some thought and this is what I came up with:
When you choose your class, you can also choose to give it some melee punch to fall back on in desperate times. This is accomplished by giving up a major class feature (dependent on class, outlined below). In return you gain the Close Quarters feat as a bonus feat, and may choose 1 other Brawler feat without having to meet the prerequisites.
Gunslinger: Ditch Shootout Style
Sharpshooter: Ditch Fancy Shooting
Tactician: Ditch Combat Inspiration
And voila! Instant secondary melee role. If you opt not to choose a melee role or even purchase it with feats later, you are rewarded with an additional class feature which is quite powerful. If you love melee combat you get it, and everyone is happy!
PEACH, I like this idea but prove me wrong or tell me how you would make it better! Your ideas have already made this system far better than I had hoped!
Against All Odds (Dragon 364)
Adaptable Breath (Dragon 365)
Admixture Breath (Dragon 365)
Dragonborn Zeal (Dragon 365)
Hurl Breath (Dragon 365)
Broken Shackles (FRPG)
Ghostwise Heritage (FRPG)
Gold Dwarf Pride (FRPG)
Scion of the Gods (FRPG)
Shield the Fallen (FRPG)
Stubborn Survivor (FRPG)
Wild Elf Luck (FRPG)
Wood Elf Agility (FRPG)
The following Channel Divinity feats: Favor of Tymora (Dragon 365), (FRPG everything else) Angharradh's Favor, Berronar's Salve, Blessing of Silvanus, Chauntea's Blessing, Eyes of Selune, Fleetness of Mielikki, Glittergold's Gambit, Ilmater's Martyrdom, Oghma's Recall, Righterous Rage of Tempus, Sheela Peryroyl's Gift, Sune's Touch, Torm's Justice, Tymora's Coin, and Waukeen's Silver Tongue can all be adapted if named appropriately.
There, that's the Compendium. Maybe I'll work on monsters, but probably, I'll just keep watching Scrubs on DVD instead.
There, that's the Compendium. Maybe I'll work on monsters, but probably, I'll just keep watching Scrubs on DVD instead.
I don't know if my vote counts, but I vote for Scrubs.
4e Warlock -> Gunslinger From my Sig. Hopefully it'll prove itself useful in one way or another!
A little inspiration is always appreciated, and after reading your thread I have a much better concept of how I want the Sunset paragon and epic (if there is one) tier to look. Things like shooting an opponents gun, shooting bullets out of midair, or firing shots with outlandish(though not too supernatural) properties like traveling so fast they create a damaging sonic boom will now find a home in Sunset :D .
I know it's a lot to read through, but criticism has been unbelievably valuable so far and I appreciate it more than I can say. Is there any interest in an ultra-condensed version of the rules changes so that people can quickly read&comment?
You guys are great!