Also, once I do that I shall allow higher levels become obtainable. I will not make any new powers, etc. but I will allow old powers, more feats, half level, etc. to play a role. At level 30 the player may choose another at-will power. Then I will continue the utility, encounter, daily power pattern. Feats every other level, stat updates every "4 and 8" and so on. I will NOT allow paragons and other epics to be obtainable. This is purely to allow for more obtainable bonuses.
----------
tl;dr I need a pattern for EXP in 4.0 and explained what I will do with it.
From level 30 and by level 40, monsters have gained +10 to all their attacks and defenses.
PC's will have gained 5, for half level, 6 for those things based on the stats they raised.
So your accuracy and defense will rapidly fall compared to what enemies will have.
Also, gods, primordials, and demon lords tend to be 30+...what else are you going to fight?
For example, a Str/Con fighter, once reaching level 31, starts as a level 1 Monk (dex/wis) using the same stats. Continue playing.
At first, the reincarnated characters don't have the full use of their previous powers and feats, but they slowly regain them.
This requires some sort of Thing Going Wrong during the final epic battle, but really, how hard would that be to throw in?
Here's a new progression chart I just tossed together. In addition to the standard level-up stuff, they get these:
Level 1: Gain training in all your previous class's trained skills.
Level 3: Regain armor and weapon proficiencies from Old Class
Level 5: Regain a low-level utility
Level 7: Regain a class feature (use hybrid rules to determine which one)
Level 9: Regain low-level daily power (should be highly accurate and high damage, but not enormously better by now)
Level 13: Regain more utilities and dailies
Level 15: Regain low-level encounter power
Level 17: Regain rest of old class features, more utilities and dailies
Level 19: Regain some encounter powers
Level 23: Regain last of old encounter, dailies, utilities
Level 25: Regain paragon path features, a single at-will power from old class
27: Regain old ED powers and such.
The reason I start with dailies is that mid-level dailies will then seem like Epic Nova powers, but the daily limit means they can't overshadow new powers in most situations.
By the time you recover encounters, the same thing should happen. By epic, your new at-wills should be nearly on-par with old at-wills.
Of course, with higher stats all around, PCs will be tougher, more versatile, and be able to dish out lots more damage, especially by mid paragon. I figure that the additional power will mean Level + 2 is the new "average" encounter, and you could get away with Level + 6 on occasion, as long as you make sure they can still hit the darn things.
By late Epic, they could probably take on multiple solos together, such as a den of red dragons, or a tribe of giants. This is especially true if the class pairings are planned well. For example:
Fighter (Str/Con) => Monk (Dex/Wis) - OA's will land like nukes, monk powers allow for crazy-good multi-attack lockdowns, con = more HP
Wizard (Int/Dex) => Sorcerer (Cha/Str) - Arcane powers dish out obscene damage (even the wizard ones!) and the versatility of both classes means this guy should make MacGyver look bad. The boost to Ref will help the sorcerer later, since that's their major (glaring) weakness.
:D
Also, gods, primordials, and demon lords tend to be 30+...what else are you going to fight?
I hear there are these level 35+ Wizards. They live on the coast.
Do what Fire Emblem does (sort of), and start PCs over at level 1 in a new class, but they must use two different primary stats.
[insert wall of text here]
That system is extremely broken. In Fire Emblem, first off, EXP gains are much different then in D&D. Aside from needing 100 to level up every time, EXP gained is variable based on the opponent you defeated. With this my players can kill any opponent their level and gain massive amounts of EXP, and therefore a large number of levels. Furthermore it limits what they already know. So going past level 30 actually makes you weaker to start off. I'm not planning this campaign to go on forever. I just don't want my players to ever "max out" their level. I'd like the option that they can continue leveling up until the end of the campaign.
Or you could just start a whole new campaign once the current campaign ends. :P
Um... that defeats the purpose of being able to break past level 30. Since my players are taking on the nine hells, they will be facing 9 level 30 and up devils. There is a high chance they will hit level 30 through these series of battles. Well, the next battles would probably give them another level up or 2. The purpose of this is not to run another campaign, but not have a limit on the end of mine.
and even if they fail most of them are immortal anyway.
I don't know how you run your campaign, but in my world failure means so much more than death. If the PCs TPK during the final Epic arc of my campaign, there won't be a world left for them to be resurrected into.
31- 1,175,000
32- 1,325,000
33- 1,475,000
34- 1,625,000
35- 1,775,000
My best guesses.
Or I would change it to "Every 100k xp past level 30 lets you retrain your lowest level power, for any power of the same type. IE if your lowest level power is a level 19 encounter, you can retrain it for any encounter you want, even if a higher level."
Which seems a lot simpler, and doesn't require you to add an extra tier to the system.
Now I look at 4.0 and trying to figure out the pattern to the experience is driving me insane. What I need to know is if anyone here found out the pattern.
well, IIRC it is dependant on how much a XP monster of that same level gives. Have you tried matching the XP table to the xp of monsters?
From level 30 and by level 40, monsters have gained +10 to all their attacks and defenses.
PC's will have gained 5, for half level, 6 for those things based on the stats they raised.
actually; 5 for half level, 2 for magic, 1 of feat, 1 of stat, 1 of boost power of the leader ~ 10
Also, gods, primordials, and demon lords tend to be 30+...what else are you going to fight?
things from the outer planes or groups of demon lords ... (much depends on the setting)
... Chtulhu :coolcthul for example
Everything continues fine again until they hit level 20 at which point it tacks on another 4K. But it gets just plain weird after that tack on 3K, 3.5K, and etc. Why it was 4K then dropped down I have no clue it doesn't seem to correspond to the XP of monsters at all but is still over 10 * XP. I think someone at WoTC just wanted nice round numbers and have it hit an even 1M at level 30.
The good news I suppose though is at level 25 it's 10 * XP + 5K = Adv Level. And that 5K amount increase to 10K at level 26, then to 15K at 27, and continues all the way to 30. This means you have a baseline for going into the upper levels past 30. Simply tack on another 5K to the amount being add so that it's as follows.
Level 31 = 1.220M (10*XP+30K+PreviousXP)
Level 32 = 1.485M (10*XP+35K+PreviousXP)
Level 33 = 1.795M (10*XP+40K+PreviousXP)
If you wanna make a table for yourself in excel here is a good starting point. It's the formula for monster XP of that level.
=(100+((MOD(A41-1,4))*25))*2^ROUNDDOWN((A41-1)/4,0)+(((A41-21)*75)+ABS(((A41-21)*75)))+(((A41-25)*125)+ABS(((A41-25)*125)))+(((A41-29)*200)+ABS(((A41-29)*200)))+(((A41-33)*400)+ABS(((A41-33)*400)))+(((A41-37)*800)+ABS(((A41-37)*800)))Also if your going past 30 you probably wanna let your players pickup +7 and +8 enchantment items. Players already don't advance as much as monsters so every little bit will help.
So in case your interested the excel formula for item cost is as follows.
=(200+(160*MOD(A31,5)))*5^ROUNDDOWN((A31/5),0)On stat bonus besides levels 4 & 8 you should also give them +1 to All at the start of each new "tier". So they will get it at level 31, 41, and etc.
And they also get a feat at start of new tier. I know some people over look that cause I hear people say you get 5 feats per tier all the time only thinking of the every other ones and not including the start of tier one, so you actually get 6 feats every tier.
Also feats that scale up you might wanna continue to scale up. Like the Expertise feats increase at 15th & 25th levels. So you should give them another increase at 35th, 45th, and etc.
You can do the same scale up on magic items too as their powers tend to increase at a fairly predictable rate.
actually; 5 for half level, 2 for magic, 1 of feat, 1 of stat, 1 of boost power of the leader ~ 10
I included the stat, any feat bonuses would most likely already have been taken, and magic items don't exceed +6 (if those were being housrules as well it's a different story.)
Back to the original poster, from the sounds of what your doing, I don't think you'll have too much trouble just letting level rise. If you want to increase their power slightly, let them retrain any encounter power into any other encounter power in their classes at 33 and 37, any daily at 35 and 39, and a Utility at 32.
That system is extremely broken.
Um... that defeats the purpose of being able to break past level 30. Since my players are taking on the nine hells, they will be facing 9 level 30 and up devils. There is a high chance they will hit level 30 through these series of battles. Well, the next battles would probably give them another level up or 2. The purpose of this is not to run another campaign, but not have a limit on the end of mine.
Not to be rude, but basically anything past level 30 will start being broken one way or another.
Some ED's have game-breaking level 30 features, and monsters will continue to overpower the PCs if you scale them properly, this time without an Expertise feat to help them out (unless, of course) you houserule something.
The game assumes magic items will help you hit things, as well, so you would need to add +7 and +8 magic items just to reach level 40.
Also, you never explained it was just for another couple of levels. I assumed you wanted to continue playing for much, much longer.
Some ED's have game-breaking level 30 features, and monsters will continue to overpower the PCs if you scale them properly
So basically your saying the player's ED will become powerful to the point of game breaking. Yet at the same time monsters will over power the players?! If both sides are getting a major boost I don't see the problem.
Also I know some people actually want to continue on after 30. I mean what is the point of getting those awesome level 30 abilities only to fight maybe a couple final fights and then say, "Oh, Campaign is over roll new characters."? I know plenty of people who would love to play out those characters for a while after all it's assumed you actually played up to that level and didn't simply roll level 30s.
---------------------------
As for the monsters outpacing the players this is already a bit of a problem. Monsters gain 29 in both Defense and Attack from level 1 to level 30. Players gain (15 Level + 6 Magic + 4 Stat + 3 Feat) = 28 in Attack from level 1-30. And they gain (15 Level + 6 Magic + 2 Armor Inc + 4 Stat/Hvy Armor Inc) = 27 in Defense which can be 28 if you take Armor Spec feat but cloth armor doesn't have that feat
. So as you can see players are behind the monsters by 1-2 points over 30 levels which isn't much but because they don't really get anything after 30 you gotta watch out of this.
If you continue to progress magic items, the expertise feat, and stats (along with +1 to all at 31, 41, and etc.) it should do a decent job of keeping them on par.
30-40 Block = 5 Level + 1 Stat + 1 Feat + 2 Magic items = 9 Increase
40-50 Block = 5 Level + 2 Stat(31/41 +1 to all) + 1 Feat + 2 Magic Items = 10 Increase
Thus over next 20 levels player increase by 19 when monsters increase by 20.
Now you will need to do a little manipulation of the heavy armor base armor values since they don't take into account stats on defense and they don't have a Feat like Expertise.
For armor you need a flat base increase at 31 and 41 to account for the +1 that expertise gives. And then another 3 point increase mixed in somewhere over those 20 levels. Probably just make it a general free bonus since the game handles the increase with masterwork armors. And you seem not to want to add new stuff like powers, feats, and etc to the game. Where as the things above or mainly the natural progression of stuff already established.
And to even it out on armor do following each armor type gets a base increase to AC as follows.
Light Armors
+7 Enchantment = Extra +1 AC
+8 Enchantment = Extra +1 AC
+9 Enchantment = Extra +2 AC
+10 Enchantment = Extra +2 AC
Heavy Armors
+7 Enchantment = Extra +1 AC
+8 Enchantment = Extra +2 AC
+9 Enchantment = Extra +4 AC
+10 Enchantment = Extra +5 AC
The main problem is NADs which have varying increases. Primary/Secondary NAD increase (15 Level + 6 Magic + 4 Stat + 2 Feat) = 27 the same as armor which is fine. Other NAD though only increase by (15 Level + 6 Magic + 1 Stat + 2 Feat) = 24 which is horrible giving the monsters a gain of 5 points so that it in many cases is near auto hit.
The Epic NAD feats though were designed to combat this as they are not listed as Feat Bonuses thus you can stack them with Robust Defenses so that you can actually gain 31 in P/S NAD and 28 in Others. But this doesn't solve your problem of higher levels though.
To address this first off I recommend making the Feat Robust Defenses scalable. This is because Robust Defenses is already the simple scale up for Paragon Defenses and it doesn't even have a pre-req so most people simply retrain PD to RD when they reach 21 anyway. If you have it increase to +3 at 31 and +4 at 41 it will then follow the same increase rate as Expertise above of +9 for 30-40 and +10 for 41-50.
The main problem though is still the NAD that aren't tied to your main stats. They'll increase by 1 less each block meaning they fall behind even more. The answer to this could be to do the same Scaling for the Epic NAD feats as you do for Robust Defenses by making them increase to 5 at level 31, then to 6 at level 41 and etc.
I know over the 30-50 levels that means someone who has both Robust Defenses and Epic NAD feat in a primary NAD will gain 21 which the monsters gain 20, though the Other NAD then increase by 19. But personally I think that's a small price to pay so that the other NAD isn't an auto-hit (or at least close enough to be one). And frankly a gain of 1 point over 20 levels isn't much considering they will still have a weak NAD and AC which don't keep pace.
On the XP per level table once again WoTC screws up a perfectly good mathematical setup. It starts out with 10 * Monster XP = Advance to Next Level. Which holds true all the way to level 10 when for some reason they tack on another 500 XP which happens to make it 11 * Monster XP for that level but only that level.
Everything continues fine again until they hit level 20 at which point it tacks on another 4K. But it gets just plain weird after that tack on 3K, 3.5K, and etc. Why it was 4K then dropped down I have no clue it doesn't seem to correspond to the XP of monsters at all but is still over 10 * XP. I think someone at WoTC just wanted nice round numbers and have it hit an even 1M at level 30.
The good news I suppose though is at level 25 it's 10 * XP + 5K = Adv Level. And that 5K amount increase to 10K at level 26, then to 15K at 27, and continues all the way to 30. This means you have a baseline for going into the upper levels past 30. Simply tack on another 5K to the amount being add so that it's as follows.
Level 31 = 1.220M (10*XP+30K+PreviousXP)
Level 32 = 1.485M (10*XP+35K+PreviousXP)
Level 33 = 1.795M (10*XP+40K+PreviousXP)
If you wanna make a table for yourself in excel here is a good starting point. It's the formula for monster XP of that level.=(100+((MOD(A41-1,4))*25))*2^ROUNDDOWN((A41-1)/4,0)+(((A41-21)*75)+ABS(((A41-21)*75)))+(((A41-25)*125)+ABS(((A41-25)*125)))+(((A41-29)*200)+ABS(((A41-29)*200)))+(((A41-33)*400)+ABS(((A41-33)*400)))+(((A41-37)*800)+ABS(((A41-37)*800)))
Also if your going past 30 you probably wanna let your players pickup +7 and +8 enchantment items. Players already don't advance as much as monsters so every little bit will help.
So in case your interested the excel formula for item cost is as follows.=(200+(160*MOD(A31,5)))*5^ROUNDDOWN((A31/5),0)
On stat bonus besides levels 4 & 8 you should also give them +1 to All at the start of each new "tier". So they will get it at level 31, 41, and etc.
And they also get a feat at start of new tier. I know some people over look that cause I hear people say you get 5 feats per tier all the time only thinking of the every other ones and not including the start of tier one, so you actually get 6 feats every tier.
Also feats that scale up you might wanna continue to scale up. Like the Expertise feats increase at 15th & 25th levels. So you should give them another increase at 35th, 45th, and etc.
You can do the same scale up on magic items too as their powers tend to increase at a fairly predictable rate.
This was amazingly helpful, thank you so much.
I was able to get EXP up to level 50. I honestly doubt that my players will ever get anywhere near 38 million EXP (it's actually a little more than that to reach level 50) but now I have the option for them to get a few more feats and whatnot from 32 etc. Thanks a mil.
First, you could simply provide additional, ad-hoc benefits after certain story-related milestones are achieved. Or perhaps the PCs are granted additional power by the gods, who are backing them in this endeavor. You could provide certain artifacts or additional benefits tailored specifically to give them a better chance against the Lords of the Nine, since that's what the culmination of the adventure is going to be.
Also, I would point out that encounters are always supposed to be somewhat tailored to the group they are intended for. Certain notable NPC's in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting are mentioned, but intentionally left undefined stats-wise. This is because, based on what level your party is when you want to bring the NPC in, the NPC might need to be level 8, or level 28.
If it were a fight with a single Devil Lord, the Lord would undoubtedly be a solo monster of high level, with lots of nasty tricks and abilities. Fighting nine at once, however, would be ludicrous if all were solo monsters, at any level. In that situation I would make each an elite, with unique and dastardly abilities, but no total party-screwing powers.
In one of my games, the party did battle with a demon prince at level 10. We accomplished this two ways. One: we had weapons tailored to fight him. Two: we worked with a cabal of mages, gathered objects, and performed a ritual that bound the demon's power and brought him to a level of kill-able-ness. It was still absolutely ridiculous and by the end everyone died but me, but hey, we one. (it was a death throes that offed the last two standing, besides me.)
There are a few things to consider other than breaking 30. Capping a level doesn't necessarily mean capping power, as the PCs can continue to gain items, rituals, and various spiffy things you make up to grant them more power. I strongly suggest not trying to go 31+, as the mechanics get odd, but do whatever makes you and your party happy.
31 - 1,260,000
32 - 1,565,000
33 - 1,915,000
34 - 2,350,000
35 - 2,870,000
36 - 3,475,000
37 - 4,165,000
38 - 5,020,000
39 - 6,040,000
40 - 7,225,000
So as you can see, getting past level 31 or 32 probably isn't going to end up happening, and I am no exactly adding any powers or anything, but I truly do like the ad-hoc benefits. I'll probably end up doing that. We'll see how things turn out, right now the party is only level 6 so it shall be a while before they reach level 30.
right now the party is only level 6 so it shall be a while before they reach level 30.
Lol. Yea it'll be a very long while. Assuming you average 1 level per session that's 24 sessions away. The group I'm in tends to average that as we do 7-8 encounters per session and they are n to n+2 encounters usually with an n+3 or n+4 at the end. And general rule is 10 n encounters gets you a level, 5 n+4 encounters also gets you a level, and the rest of course fall in between.
If you average 1 session a week that is nearly half a year away. Which can be a long ways off. Yet at the same time it can go by very quickly. Before you know it your in the epic tier and several months have gone by.
You could also do something similar without items or XP. Every time they kill an archdevil, they get some bonus, like a +1 to all attacks, defenses, and damage rolls, or damage reduction, or more damage dice, or extra uses of encounter powers, or some other cool bonus.
You could also do something similar without items or XP. Every time they kill an archdevil, they get some bonus, like a +1 to all attacks, defenses, and damage rolls, or damage reduction, or more damage dice, or extra uses of encounter powers, or some other cool bonus.
THey absorbe some of his power. The main reason all the archdevils are plotting against one another trying to kill each other. Obviously killing one gives you his power[see highlander]. (mechanically a +1 to stuff)
(Broken in half... in purpose)
"Divine Destinies"
"Now that you have become an enduring, immortal legend, there are still yet opponents to defeat and prove your mettle: The Gods! If you are good, your goal is to defeat the ultimate evil Gods and Devils such as Lolth, Orcus, or Satan. If you are evil, storm the gates of Heaven and steal your seat as overlord of all creation. Not just immortality, but Godhood awaits..."
Divine Destinies:
"God of War"
Known as the ultimate warrior, you have become and undefeated eternal legend. Taking the mantle of God of War, you are the avatar of War. You are worshipped by warriors across the world by hundreds of names. Your simple prescence can spur three men to annihilate a million man army."
God of War Destiny Features:
For each level you gain, you gain 2 STR, 2 CON, and 2 DEX.
You gain a bonus to AC equal to your CON modifier.
You gain a bonus to speed equal to your DEX modifier.
Double all [W] Damage you would deal.
God of War Level 33:
Divine Wrath
Daily
All monsters take damage equal to the amount of damage you dealt this turn.
God of War Level 36:
Divine Intervention
Daily
Until the end of your next turn, all allies automatically hit and those hits are criticals.
God of War Level 40:
Divine Anger
At-Will
str vs AC
Hit: Deal 30[W] + str damage.
God of Void
Pre-req: Warlock
" In your journey to appease your patron, you killed thousands, if not tens of thousands of opponents. Now that you have learned to master those arcane powers you were simply given before, you have surpassed your former patrons, who are now your meek servants if you choose to let them live. Now you master the powers of Void, where you paradoxically draw ultimate divine power from the fabric of the universe."
God of Void Destiny Features:
For each level you gain, you gain 2 CON, 2 INT, and 2 CHA.
You gain a bonus to Fortitude, Reflex, and Will equal to your CHA or CON modifier.
You gain "Void Aura 3: All enemies within this aura are immobilized, dazed, and have ongoing void damage 50"
God of Void Level 33:
Infinity Disruption
Daily
Move all monsters to any location on the map.
Secondary attack: CON/CHA vs Reflex
Hit: 10d10 + CON + CHA void damage, and targets are slowed, blinded, and deafened. (Save ends individually)
God of Void Level 36:
Summon the Void
Daily
The immediate area becomes the void. All walls vanish. All terrain is until end of encounter difficult for enemies. While you have summoned the void, all allies deal a bonus 40 void damage per attack.
Make an attack when you cast this:
Attack: CON/CHA vs Reflex
Close burst 10
Hit: 10d12 cold damage, 10d12 void damage, and targets are immobilized and stunned (save ends).
God of Void Level 40:
Black Hole
At-Will
CON/CHA vs Reflex
Burst 2
Hit: All creatures within the burst cease to exist. If target is a God, instead deal 40d12 + CON + CHA void damage.
So as you can see, getting past level 31 or 32 probably isn't going to end up happening, and I am no exactly adding any powers or anything, but I truly do like the ad-hoc benefits. I'll probably end up doing that. We'll see how things turn out, right now the party is only level 6 so it shall be a while before they reach level 30.
I have to disagree with the feasibility of leveling the party past 31-32. 4e design makes the actual value of exp negligible, since designing encounters for a level involve approximately 10 every time. The only thing the experience gives you is a pool to buy monsters with, so that higher exp requirement to level is matched by more and stronger monsters. Ultimately, it'll be as easy to level from 39-40 as from 3-4 if you keep the same basic structure.
1. The WoW perspective: Their levels stop at 30 and instead of leveling up, they focus more on getting the gear that they want. This may mean the creation of a lot of artifacts with long long game scenarios forcing them to really work to gain them, and of course working to gain better control over them.
2. 2ed (pre-high level campaigns): Back in those days, there was a really simple method for leveling past 20. Instead of gaining new levels, a specific xp benchmark was set (a very high benchmark) and every time the characters reached it they would gain a choice of an advantage. ie. Every X xp they get to choose one of the following, in addition to getting to exchange a feat or a power.
a. Increase 1 stat by 1.
b. Increase all defenses by 1.
c. Increase their max health by 2.
d. Increase their chance to hit by 1.
The list of advantages can grow from there, but that's the general idea. Also the exact +s can be altered for your game and group as you see fit, but I warn against making those +s too large for obvious reasons.