How does one design mecha for character use that does not grant that character an unfair advantage when it comes to hp?
Any suggestions or ideas would be most appreciated. Thank you.
Current Consilidated Suggestions:
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- With regard to current published vehicles, the rules presented for them apply without alteration. The vehicles are already present and functional, no need to change them just for a class whose powers can do unusual things with them.
- Members of the "pilot" multiclass (structured almost identically to spellscared) may use powers whose keywords match the vehicle (and its equipment) they are piloting at the time.
- Mecha are constructs (of whatever size or sizes yet to be finally determined) which occupy the same spaces you do (if only one size category larger) or replaces you (if more than one size category larger).
- Weapons, armor, and items worn and carried while pilotng a mecha provide no benefit.
- The act of calling the mecha obeys the same rules as for summoning creatures.
- Mecha possess X temp HP (probably the modifier of some appropriate ability score). The mecha is destroyed when the character reaches 0 HP. Some mecha pilot powers may grant new temp HP.
- Editor's note: I would suggest the mecha be disabled at 0 hp and is in need of repairs. It could be destroyed at a lower value, like the damage needed in excess of zero hp to kill a PC. Repair and Resurrection of a disabled or destroyed mecha could count as a ritual in a magic environment or be treated as a ritual but fluffed into a simple extended skill check in a modern/future environment.
- This construct has Item Slots just as characters do, but these slots may only be occupied by mecha-specific items. These items (and their powers, if magical) otherwise function identically to others of their slot.
- Mecha pilot powers often require specific items (not necessarily enchanted) be present to function.
- Certain mecha items sometimes serve as tools for powers of other classes that require weapons or implements.
- Mecha defenses possess a keyword that makes them immune to damage from sources that do not possess the same keyword. Mecha weapons and powers that attack possess this keyword. This new keyword confers no other benefits.
- Some powers of other classes, and some weapons, will aquire this new keyword. Perhaps Godplate might also.
- Members of the "pilot" multiclass (structured almost identically to spellscared) may use powers whose keywords match the vehicle (and its equipment) they are piloting at the time.
- Mecha are constructs (of whatever size or sizes yet to be finally determined) which occupy the same spaces you do (if only one size category larger) or replaces you (if more than one size category larger).
- Weapons, armor, and items worn and carried while pilotng a mecha provide no benefit.
- The act of calling the mecha obeys the same rules as for summoning creatures.
- Mecha possess X temp HP (probably the modifier of some appropriate ability score). The mecha is destroyed when the character reaches 0 HP. Some mecha pilot powers may grant new temp HP.
- Editor's note: I would suggest the mecha be disabled at 0 hp and is in need of repairs. It could be destroyed at a lower value, like the damage needed in excess of zero hp to kill a PC. Repair and Resurrection of a disabled or destroyed mecha could count as a ritual in a magic environment or be treated as a ritual but fluffed into a simple extended skill check in a modern/future environment.
- This construct has Item Slots just as characters do, but these slots may only be occupied by mecha-specific items. These items (and their powers, if magical) otherwise function identically to others of their slot.
- Mecha pilot powers often require specific items (not necessarily enchanted) be present to function.
- Certain mecha items sometimes serve as tools for powers of other classes that require weapons or implements.
- Mecha defenses possess a keyword that makes them immune to damage from sources that do not possess the same keyword. Mecha weapons and powers that attack possess this keyword. This new keyword confers no other benefits.
- Some powers of other classes, and some weapons, will aquire this new keyword. Perhaps Godplate might also.
While working upon a homebrew 4e anime, I came across the conundrum of characters with mecha. My first notion has been to give mecha hp = the pilot's healing surge value and simply remove one of the pilot's surges per day. The mecha would provide armor to the character, and there will be a mecha keyword that is applied to powers that are either only usable while in mecha or that have a modified effect when used in a mecha. It was also my initial idea (for simplicity's sake) that the mecha be summonable and have full hp when summoned. I've been trying to figure out how to change that part, but a lot of the ideas bring up the following question:
How does one design mecha for character use that does not grant that character an unfair advantage when it comes to hp?
Any suggestions or ideas would be most appreciated. Thank you.
Design it mechanically as if it were a suit of magic armor. Each part has benefits and item powers that can be activated by the person wearing them.
This would make a difference, since I have found from Cthulhutech the best method is to amp up the scale all around. The character is run essentially the same, but the scale is higher. So damage, hp, etc.
I would probably have different levels of mecha. This level would tie into what level of threat they be able to deal with. Then give that mecha the amount of HP bonuses, Damage, etc. that the average PC would have at that stage in the game.
As for your little Tech or Magic. I like to combine the two a lot of the time. The Mecha is all cybernetic, etc. but powered by a spirit (or used as its onboard computer), or it ties in wirelessly to nearby Ley Lines. Though your mention of it being summonable, makes me also think of Cthulhutech and their Tagers which are summonable symbiotes that cover it. So perhaps a supernatural (say Far Realm) creature that has mechanical components built into it.
While working upon a homebrew 4e anime, I came across the conundrum of characters with mecha. My first notion has been to give mecha hp = the pilot's healing surge value and simply remove one of the pilot's surges per day. The mecha would provide armor to the character, and there will be a mecha keyword that is applied to powers that are either only usable while in mecha or that have a modified effect when used in a mecha. It was also my initial idea (for simplicity's sake) that the mecha be summonable and have full hp when summoned. I've been trying to figure out how to change that part, but a lot of the ideas bring up the following question:
How does one design mecha for character use that does not grant that character an unfair advantage when it comes to hp?
Any suggestions or ideas would be most appreciated. Thank you.
I don't remember where I posted it before, but I suggested an equipment and power trait called Mega-Damage (total ripoff from Palladium's Robotech game, but in name only). The idea was that only attacks through powers or weapons with the Mega-Damage trait could harm things protected by equipment or powers with the Mega-Damage trait.
HP and damage stay reasonably small so that if you hit someone or something without Mega-Damage as a defense, they don't take MORE damage than a similar weapon would do without the Mega-Damage trait. That gets rid of the ludicrous amounts of HP and damage usually needed just to illustrate the gap between heavy machines and weapons, and fleshies and such.
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But, I think the biggest problem is the potential advantage of size, since even a mere powersuit would make a medium creature large sized. That would be a general rule I'd think, that any kind of mecha be no less than one size category bigger than you...and that you can't use mecha of any size if it's sized for someone bigger or smaller than you.
But still, you run into reach and general size issues that way anyway. Not really sure what to do about that myself. The only thing I can possibly suggest is to read over every scrap of info you can on size and reach and all related aspects and make mecha as close to creatures (in terms of reach capabilities and such only, of course) of similar size as possible.
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I think you're on the right track though with powers that can only be used while in a mecha, but I think it should go one better and make it so that ONLY certain power can be used in your mecha. Sort of like how druids can't used their humanoid form powers while in beast form.
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I'll follow along on this idea and offer whatever suggestions and advice I can, assuming you're amiable to what I have to say. My views are quite far from being particularly popular at all, let alone often.
I think, first one needs to figure out would the Mecha be a random occurance or be something that be used when appropriate. So, like when facing some dire threat the whole party goes Mecha action on it.
This would make a difference, since I have found from Cthulhutech the best method is to amp up the scale all around. The character is run essentially the same, but the scale is higher. So damage, hp, etc.
I would probably have different levels of mecha. This level would tie into what level of threat they be able to deal with. Then give that mecha the amount of HP bonuses, Damage, etc. that the average PC would have at that stage in the game.
As for your little Tech or Magic. I like to combine the two a lot of the time. The Mecha is all cybernetic, etc. but powered by a spirit (or used as its onboard computer), or it ties in wirelessly to nearby Ley Lines. Though your mention of it being summonable, makes me also think of Cthulhutech and their Tagers which are summonable symbiotes that cover it. So perhaps a supernatural (say Far Realm) creature that has mechanical components built into it.
As mentioned in the OP, I came across this problem while working on a homebrew anime 4e (specifically I was attempting to convert BESM d20 to 4e). That means it would be possible that the mecha would be either part of a mecha team or even as just one character's power armor. The scale would have to be slideable, I guess to accomodate the range this implies.
As for the title, I used "magic or tech" because (at least in anime) mecha is not solely the purview of technology. It is just as likely to be powered and animated by some kind of arcane energy core as it is by a micro-singularity. Plus, I wanted readers to be aware that I wasn't just looking for advice on mecha in a futuristic setting.
Design it mechanically as if it were a suit of magic armor. Each part has benefits and item powers that can be activated by the person wearing them.
I hadn't actually thought of that idea Alex. Thank you very much. It certainly helps put a new twist on things. If the mecha occupies a character's magic item slots; the special abilities, armor bonus, and extra hp it provides becomes much less broken. It also provides a great way to customize mecha, and to place level limits on things like flight. That is quite a stroke of inspiration.genius you had there.
I don't remember where I posted it before, but I suggested an equipment and power trait called Mega-Damage (total ripoff from Palladium's Robotech game, but in name only). The idea was that only attacks through powers or weapons with the Mega-Damage trait could harm things protected by equipment or powers with the Mega-Damage trait.
HP and damage stay reasonably small so that if you hit someone or something without Mega-Damage as a defense, they don't take MORE damage than a similar weapon would do without the Mega-Damage trait. That gets rid of the ludicrous amounts of HP and damage usually needed just to illustrate the gap between heavy machines and weapons, and fleshies and such.
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But, I think the biggest problem is the potential advantage of size, since even a mere powersuit would make a medium creature large sized. That would be a general rule I'd think, that any kind of mecha be no less than one size category bigger than you...and that you can't use mecha of any size if it's sized for someone bigger or smaller than you.
But still, you run into reach and general size issues that way anyway. Not really sure what to do about that myself. The only thing I can possibly suggest is to read over every scrap of info you can on size and reach and all related aspects and make mecha as close to creatures (in terms of reach capabilities and such only, of course) of similar size as possible.
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I think you're on the right track though with powers that can only be used while in a mecha, but I think it should go one better and make it so that ONLY certain power can be used in your mecha. Sort of like how druids can't used their humanoid form powers while in beast form.
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I'll follow along on this idea and offer whatever suggestions and advice I can, assuming you're amiable to what I have to say. My views are quite far from being particularly popular at all, let alone often.
That is exactly how Palladiums RIFTS is done. They use Mega-Damage. Most supernatural things or Power Armor have MDC. So it would take 100 SDC to do 1 point of damage to something that has MDC.
That is exactly how Palladiums RIFTS is done. They use Mega-Damage. Most supernatural things or Power Armor have MDC. So it would take 100 SDC to do 1 point of damage to something that has MDC.
Also fits closely to Cthulhutech, they have instead of Mega-Damage a Integrity Scale. The only issue with going this route would it would be another system added to the game, thus my example of just amping the amounts for the level of threat you would face.
That is exactly how Palladiums RIFTS is done. They use Mega-Damage. Most supernatural things or Power Armor have MDC. So it would take 100 SDC to do 1 point of damage to something that has MDC.
Also fits closely to Cthulhutech, they have instead of Mega-Damage a Integrity Scale. The only issue with going this route would it would be another system added to the game, thus my example of just amping the amounts for the level of threat you would face.
Except that what I stated had nothing to do with altering a single number anywhere. It's strictly defining a new trait and adding it to certain items and powers in the game such that any offensive ability WITHOUT the trait cannot inflict damage on any defensive ability WITH the trait.
Palladium did make it so that a single MDC point was worth 100 SDC points. I'm simply suggesting that that scaling difference is really rather superfluous, especially in 4e. Weapons, powers, and such without the trait simply cannot damage defensive abilities or equipment and so on that have it. The very same way it is in the Palladium books, yes. BUT...it isn't at all necessary for weapons and so on that have the trait to deal increased damage to defenses and the like that don't have it.
Admittedly, this stems mostly from my own view of how HP are abstractedly interpreted. I feel that they aren't USUALLY physical hits. They're more often a measure of your ability to "get out of the way" or only take a generally harmless graze through luck, skill, sheer determination, whatever. If the enemy rolls a miss...then they miss, all on their own. If they "hit" then that means you have to expend effort to avoid serious harm, thus depleting your HP.
In 4e I tend to view the bloodied condition and 0 HP as the points where a strike has actually wounded you...bloodied being a flesh wound and 0 HP being the one that actually puts you down. Perhaps there might be a handful of extremely minor wounds, or a slightly more serious one every 1/4 HP or so.
Regardless, in such an instance, there isn't any need at all for such "heavy weapons" and the like to do more damage, nor enormous vehicles to have huge hit points. Especially when it come to heroic fantasy, I think it should be well within the realm of the heroes to somehow miraculously, heroically, and cinematically avoid being blown to pieces by a bazooka. To facillitate that in the the simplest, most effective way...instead of coming up with a slew of bonuses and penalties to-hit or such and so on for varying "heavy weapons" and the like...I think it's best to just make this one trait, apply it to whatever items and powers and whatnot as needed, and go from there. I'm really confident it'll work out just fine.
Now...to interpret HP as actual hits, each and every time...that makes the idea more problematic. If you guys wanna do the scaling thing a la Palladium, go for it, but I think it's kind of redundant.
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Honestly...I'm still completely adamant that the biggest hurdle (no pun intended) is going to be size and its associated aspects.
Now...to interpret HP as actual hits, each and every time...that makes the idea more problematic. If you guys wanna do the scaling thing a la Palladium, go for it, but I think it's kind of redundant.
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Honestly...I'm still completely adamant that the biggest hurdle (no pun intended) is going to be size and its associated aspects.
I'd say both can work. I think both are good ideas.
Copied the text about Integrity Scale from Cthulhutech if OP is interested:
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Integrity Scale
The biggest difference comparing mecha combat to basic combat is the scale. Smaller, living things measure their health and wellness using Vitality. However, buildings, large beasts, vehicles, and mecha measure their state and structural capacity using Integrity. Integrity is a much greater thing.
On the scale, one point of Integrity is worth 50 points of Vitality. This means that a weapon designed to do Integrity damage is likely to kill a living thing instantly and a weapon designed to do Vitality damage is unlikely to even scratch an armored war machine like a mech. Weapons and armor are designed for either Vitality or Integrity scale, with a few exceptions. Generally speaking, if it’s for personal combat, it’s Vitality scale. If it’s for vehicular warfare or mecha combat, it’s Integrity scale.
All this does not mean that a Vitality-scale weapon can’t hurt an Integrity-scale thing. If an Integrity-scale thing is unarmored, simply record the amount of Vitality damage done to it – for every 50 points worth, it loses one Integrity. It’s pretty easy for a Vitality scale machinegun to chew up a motorcycle or a car, for example. If an Integrity-scale thing is armored, you can pretty much forget about it. Something with one die worth of Integrity-scale armor would repel 250 points worth of Vitality per attack on average.
On the other hand, things lose their armor as they are damaged and become vulnerable to Vitality-scale attacks when they do. Weapons designed to do Hybrid damage do equal amounts of damage to both Vitality- and Integrity-scale things.
The biggest difference comparing mecha combat to basic combat is the scale. Smaller, living things measure their health and wellness using Vitality. However, buildings, large beasts, vehicles, and mecha measure their state and structural capacity using Integrity. Integrity is a much greater thing.
On the scale, one point of Integrity is worth 50 points of Vitality. This means that a weapon designed to do Integrity damage is likely to kill a living thing instantly and a weapon designed to do Vitality damage is unlikely to even scratch an armored war machine like a mech. Weapons and armor are designed for either Vitality or Integrity scale, with a few exceptions. Generally speaking, if it’s for personal combat, it’s Vitality scale. If it’s for vehicular warfare or mecha combat, it’s Integrity scale.
All this does not mean that a Vitality-scale weapon can’t hurt an Integrity-scale thing. If an Integrity-scale thing is unarmored, simply record the amount of Vitality damage done to it – for every 50 points worth, it loses one Integrity. It’s pretty easy for a Vitality scale machinegun to chew up a motorcycle or a car, for example. If an Integrity-scale thing is armored, you can pretty much forget about it. Something with one die worth of Integrity-scale armor would repel 250 points worth of Vitality per attack on average.
On the other hand, things lose their armor as they are damaged and become vulnerable to Vitality-scale attacks when they do. Weapons designed to do Hybrid damage do equal amounts of damage to both Vitality- and Integrity-scale things.
While working upon a homebrew 4e anime, I came across the conundrum of characters with mecha. My first notion has been to give mecha hp = the pilot's healing surge value and simply remove one of the pilot's surges per day. The mecha would provide armor to the character, and there will be a mecha keyword that is applied to powers that are either only usable while in mecha or that have a modified effect when used in a mecha. It was also my initial idea (for simplicity's sake) that the mecha be summonable and have full hp when summoned. I've been trying to figure out how to change that part, but a lot of the ideas bring up the following question:
How does one design mecha for character use that does not grant that character an unfair advantage when it comes to hp?
Any suggestions or ideas would be most appreciated. Thank you.
Could you define "mecha" for me, please? Mecha is a term for a broad number of things.
Are you referring to magical battle-armor, or Gundam-sized robots?
If the former, I totally agree that you should treat it as a set of magic armor. The armor slot gives the AC bonus and temp HP (see stoneborn armor and stonskin armor, AV page 53).
Additional slots would improve your armor in some way. The neck slot, for example, can augment the temp HP, or give invisibility. Arm slots improve melee or ranged attacks, and boots alter movement possibilities. No real changes there.
TBP
I'd say both can work. I think both are good ideas.
Copied the text about Integrity Scale from Cthulhutech if OP is interested:ShowIntegrity Scale
The biggest difference comparing mecha combat to basic combat is the scale. Smaller, living things measure their health and wellness using Vitality. However, buildings, large beasts, vehicles, and mecha measure their state and structural capacity using Integrity. Integrity is a much greater thing.
On the scale, one point of Integrity is worth 50 points of Vitality. This means that a weapon designed to do Integrity damage is likely to kill a living thing instantly and a weapon designed to do Vitality damage is unlikely to even scratch an armored war machine like a mech. Weapons and armor are designed for either Vitality or Integrity scale, with a few exceptions. Generally speaking, if it’s for personal combat, it’s Vitality scale. If it’s for vehicular warfare or mecha combat, it’s Integrity scale.
All this does not mean that a Vitality-scale weapon can’t hurt an Integrity-scale thing. If an Integrity-scale thing is unarmored, simply record the amount of Vitality damage done to it – for every 50 points worth, it loses one Integrity. It’s pretty easy for a Vitality scale machinegun to chew up a motorcycle or a car, for example. If an Integrity-scale thing is armored, you can pretty much forget about it. Something with one die worth of Integrity-scale armor would repel 250 points worth of Vitality per attack on average.
On the other hand, things lose their armor as they are damaged and become vulnerable to Vitality-scale attacks when they do. Weapons designed to do Hybrid damage do equal amounts of damage to both Vitality- and Integrity-scale things.
Also, for magic items interacting with magic items that count as parts of the mecha, I was considering it to be a one-or-the-other situation. If you are in your mecha, then only the mecha magic items on you are counted as being worn.
For my purposes, the mecha is a Large summoned construct whose space you occupy, that moves with you. You have to have the mech summoned to use Mech keyword powers.
The class is a Defender with the mech having a damage threshold much like the Shaman's spirit companion. It takes damage in your place and when it's 'destroyed', you take feedback damage.
If your in a mech, your much more powerful than other characters.
That depends on how it's done. Remember how it used to be that if you had magic, you were more powerful than other characters?
I'm working on this concept and so far I'm using a mecha as the flavor text for a class feature.
For my purposes, the mecha is a Large summoned construct whose space you occupy, that moves with you. You have to have the mech summoned to use Mech keyword powers.
The class is a Defender with the mech having a damage threshold much like the Shaman's spirit companion. It takes damage in your place and when it's 'destroyed', you take feedback damage.
I like this idea. Simple, elegant, even ties in with plenty of the suggestions made so far.
Hey MechaPilot...I suggest having a long chat with Vaal and seeing what you can work out from that basis.
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On the note of mecha being too powerful...I again agree with Vaal, it all depends in how it's done. It's one of the very reasons I wanted to avoid the "scaling" of damage and HP.
That depends on how it's done. Remember how it used to be that if you had magic, you were more powerful than other characters?
Yeah, but I wouldn't want to play a character who needs a mech to be as good as a normal PC. If someone gets a mech, everyone else should need to get something cool as compensation. (I just gave everyone mecha.)
Yeah, but I wouldn't want to play a character who needs a mech to be as good as a normal PC. If someone gets a mech, everyone else should need to get something cool as compensation. (I just gave everyone mecha.)
I don't think that you'd need to do that; just look at the druid and how he changes into a beast. It could work much like that, with the mecha having a certain number of temporary hitpoints that, when expired, does damage to the person. The mecha would do one damage die larger than your normal attacks if a medium mecha, 2 dice larger if a large mecha and so on.
So I'll be basically designing different tiers of encounters. When the PCs are 1st-level, but have access to 11th-level mecha, I'll need to design 1st-level encounters for when they're sans mecha, and 11th-level encounters for when they're all suited up. Just as a hypothetical example.
This does create a logical problem in my head, though -- does it make sense for PCs to outlevel their mecha? Won't it seem sort of silly, to have ever operated a machine (or magical device or whatever) that becomes obselete in that fashion? It messes with the mecha drama.
This does create a logical problem in my head, though -- does it make sense for PCs to outlevel their mecha?
Depends. D&D is, after all, heroic high-fantasy where heroes regularly take down giants, elementals, dragons, warforged titans, elder evils, and other such creatures vastly larger, more powerful, and made out of sturdier stuff than your even your typical warforged, and with naught but a few feet of shiny, pointy metal.
It all depends on what kind of troupes you want to invoke, how powerful and capable your mechs are compared to their pilots, and how much of the pilot's capabilities (if any) are transferred to the mech. For example, a fire-immune mech that can use it's pilot's BaB will always be useful when fighting red dragons, traveling elemental planes of fire, ect. A mecha that can grant at-will flight will always be useful because flight is just that good.
Won't it seem sort of silly, to have ever operated a machine (or magical device or whatever) that becomes obselete in that fashion? It messes with the mecha drama.
That's what upgrades are for.
1. In the homebrew 4th edition space campaign I haven't decided if Mecha will be available but I did run into the issue of pilots. If a player(s) wishes to play a pilot how would I do it: Make a pilot class? Nope, I decided to run the route of the Spellscarred. Pilot Training is the feat you take when you want to be able to pilot a craft in my campaign. This gives you access to a variety of powers you can take in place of the powers you get from your class. That way you can be as much of a pilot as you want. Most players, I'm assuming, will take an At-Will and a few Encounters and Utilities here and there but would remain true to their class.
2. As far as the actual mechanics go for Mecha. The idea of having the weapon systems be actual Item Powers is a damn good idea. Not only does it show limited useage (limited ammo, or power source) but it also causes the player to think if he/she should use it or not. My idea is to give the vehicle its own stats, the player is just at the controls and if a Pilot check is necessary then use a Dex check or Int check depending upon the situation. Stats should be drawn up much in the same manner as making a new monster the only difference is that its a technological wonder and it can carry occupants. And if you need to throw NPC vehicles at the party, you will already have the stats for them. Not to mention the fact that every vehicle could be considered soldier vehicles, lurker vehicles, artillery vehicles. WotC practically handed us the keys to the system in the first three books so we might as well use them.
Also if your concerned with a 8th level Striker class running up and completely wailing on the mech and tearing it apart with their bare-hands, you can always go the route of Tiamat. Make the vehicles epic/paragon threats and only a character of that level can deal damage to it or a vehicle of the appropriate level.
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Well I guess I can throw my two copper in....
1. In the homebrew 4th edition space campaign I haven't decided if Mecha will be available but I did run into the issue of pilots. If a player(s) wishes to play a pilot how would I do it: Make a pilot class? Nope, I decided to run the route of the Spellscarred. Pilot Training is the feat you take when you want to be able to pilot a craft in my campaign. This gives you access to a variety of powers you can take in place of the powers you get from your class. That way you can be as much of a pilot as you want. Most players, I'm assuming, will take an At-Will and a few Encounters and Utilities here and there but would remain true to their class.
2. As far as the actual mechanics go for Mecha. The idea of having the weapon systems be actual Item Powers is a damn good idea. Not only does it show limited useage (limited ammo, or power source) but it also causes the player to think if he/she should use it or not. My idea is to give the vehicle its own stats, the player is just at the controls and if a Pilot check is necessary then use a Dex check or Int check depending upon the situation. Stats should be drawn up much in the same manner as making a new monster the only difference is that its a technological wonder and it can carry occupants. And if you need to throw NPC vehicles at the party, you will already have the stats for them. Not to mention the fact that every vehicle could be considered soldier vehicles, lurker vehicles, artillery vehicles. WotC practically handed us the keys to the system in the first three books so we might as well use them.
Also if your concerned with a 8th level Striker class running up and completely wailing on the mech and tearing it apart with their bare-hands, you can always go the route of Tiamat. Make the vehicles epic/paragon threats and only a character of that level can deal damage to it or a vehicle of the appropriate level.
My current notion of what you mean is some kind of word that denotes the mecha is so armored as to take no damage from attacks that do not also bear that keyword. Kinda like a Mega-Damage or Mecha-Damage keyword.
If this is what you intended, I do have a concern about this. What happens when you mix a mecha pilot (likely a power armor pilot) with non-mecha characters? In this situation, you would have only select creatures that could hope to harm the pilot's mecha in battle. Perhaps it might be better to change things so that attacks without the keyword do reduced damage (scaling at each teir). Perhaps 2 at heroic, 5 at paragon, and 10 at epic.
Another idea, considering the consolidated suggestions edited into the OP, is the notion of the mech's AC. When designing the 4e version of the BESM mecha pilot class, I gave that class proficiency with light mecha, medium mecha, heavy mecha, and mecha shields as armor proficiencies. Mecha of the various categories had an armor bonus to AC that was in line with that of the non-magical armors in the equipment secion of the PHB. How would we deal with the mecha's armor bonus to AC if the pilot does not have these proficiencies? Do we just use their regular armor proficiencies?
Also LuciferNietzsche, I amended your following suggestion with the attached editor's note. Please let me know if that is acceptable or not.
- Mecha possess X temp HP (probably the modifier of some appropriate ability score). The mecha is destroyed when the character reaches 0 HP. Some mecha pilot powers may grant new temp HP.
- Editor's note: I would suggest the mecha be disabled at 0 hp and is in need of repairs. It could be destroyed at a lower value, like the damage needed in excess of zero hp to kill a PC. Repair and Resurrection of a disabled or destroyed mecha could count as a ritual in a magic environment or be treated as a ritual but fluffed into a simple extended skill check in a modern/future environment.
I would like clarification on the defense keyword.
My current notion of what you mean is some kind of word that denotes the mecha is so armored as to take no damage from attacks that do not also bear that keyword. Kinda like a Mega-Damage or Mecha-Damage keyword.
If this is what you intended, I do have a concern about this. What happens when you mix a mecha pilot (likely a power armor pilot) with non-mecha characters? In this situation, you would have only select creatures that could hope to harm the pilot's mecha in battle. Perhaps it might be better to change things so that attacks without the keyword do reduced damage (scaling at each teir). Perhaps 2 at heroic, 5 at paragon, and 10 at epic.
Actually, the general idea was to amend various appropriate powers and weapons to include the new keyword...so as all characters would have the option available. Whether they take it or not is their problem...a point of forethought and strategic decision-making I find little different from current ones.
The only reason I consider the option at all is, again, to represent how weaker weapons have no hope of damaging such massive or well-armored things as mechs or large vehicles.
But, it's only an idea anyway.
Another idea, considering the consolidated suggestions edited into the OP, is the notion of the mech's AC. When designing the 4e version of the BESM mecha pilot class, I gave that class proficiency with light mecha, medium mecha, heavy mecha, and mecha shields as armor proficiencies. Mecha of the various categories had an armor bonus to AC that was in line with that of the non-magical armors in the equipment secion of the PHB. How would we deal with the mecha's armor bonus to AC if the pilot does not have these proficiencies? Do we just use their regular armor proficiencies?
Sounds good to me. I say make up new proficiences though.
Also LuciferNietzsche, I amended your following suggestion with the attached editor's note. Please let me know if that is acceptable or not.
- Editor's note: I would suggest the mecha be disabled at 0 hp and is in need of repairs. It could be destroyed at a lower value, like the damage needed in excess of zero hp to kill a PC. Repair and Resurrection of a disabled or destroyed mecha could count as a ritual in a magic environment or be treated as a ritual but fluffed into a simple extended skill check in a modern/future environment.
Good catch. That was what I meant, just didn't get it all out.
Sounds good to me. I say make up new proficiences though.
So did you want to go with these four?
1) light mecha
2) medium mecha
3) heavy mecha
4) mecha shields
Good catch. That was what I meant, just didn't get it all out.
Not a problem. Just glad for the collaboration here.
So did you want to go with these four?
1) light mecha
2) medium mecha
3) heavy mecha
4) mecha shields
Something like that. I suppose though wouldn't the shields be like 1a) or something? Unless it's intended to be more like a field sort of thing, of course.
I had an idea a moment ago...but it's completely slipped my mind. So I decided to bump the thread anyway.
I should also point out: you cannot use healing surges or rests to heal the vehicle; you must return to a mechanic & spend lots of money, perhaps 1 gp per point of damage healed. Also, assuming the mecha is closed, it blocks line-of-sight to the pilot. Thirdly, it's a move action to mount or dismount a mecha, but, depending on how flashy your startup sequence is, it could be a standard action to turn it on.
Now for the ways it is different from other vehicles:
(1) It adds to the user's powers; in addition to your old powers, the pilot is given 1 new at-will power, with additional encounter & daily powers depending on what parts you've given the mecha.
I'd keep the slots basic: Helm, Body, R arm, L arm, Boots; if your mecha has four arms or a tail, you can add slots. Basically, each part is 1 Utility or Attack power. Each part can cost, oh, 100 gp x level of the power (pick a better price if you like).
(2) For both PC & mecha-added powers, roll as if you were not in a mecha; the only, ONLY difference is you are equipped with mecha weapons, which deal tremendous damage on account of their prodigious size. For Weapon powers, a mecha longsword is... just a longsword, after all. If you want, you can add bonuses to attack & damage rolls with a Mecha Weapon +1.
(3) Like armor, the pilot only needs a proficiency feat or device to operate it, if that (Kwalish's needed nothing IIRC). Keep it simple & fun.
In summary, a mecha is a vehicle that blocks line-of-sight to you while allowing you to use powers, in addition to those it grants, from inside it with a different set of weapons: the mecha's.
I'd really keep it as simple as possible (I agree with using vehicle rules as-is). Give the vehicle 100 hp if Large, 200 Huge, and 400-1000 or more if Gargantuan. The vehicle has its own AC & Ref, too. None of the PC's stats or enhancements are involved.
I should also point out: you cannot use healing surges or rests to heal the vehicle; you must return to a mechanic & spend lots of money, perhaps 1 gp per point of damage healed. Also, assuming the mecha is closed, it blocks line-of-sight to the pilot. Thirdly, it's a move action to mount or dismount a mecha, but, depending on how flashy your startup sequence is, it could be a standard action to turn it on.
Now for the ways it is different from other vehicles:
(1) It adds to the user's powers; in addition to your old powers, the pilot is given 1 new at-will power, with additional encounter & daily powers depending on what parts you've given the mecha.
I'd keep the slots basic: Helm, Body, R arm, L arm, Boots; if your mecha has four arms or a tail, you can add slots. Basically, each part is 1 Utility or Attack power. Each part can cost, oh, 100 gp x level of the power (pick a better price if you like).
(2) For both PC & mecha-added powers, roll as if you were not in a mecha; the only, ONLY difference is you are equipped with mecha weapons, which deal tremendous damage on account of their prodigious size. For Weapon powers, a mecha longsword is... just a longsword, after all. If you want, you can add bonuses to attack & damage rolls with a Mecha Weapon +1.
(3) Like armor, the pilot only needs a proficiency feat or device to operate it, if that (Kwalish's needed nothing IIRC). Keep it simple & fun.
In summary, a mecha is a vehicle that blocks line-of-sight to you while allowing you to use powers, in addition to those it grants, from inside it with a different set of weapons: the mecha's.
I have a few reservations about treating mecha like vehicles. Frankly, I don't like that larger mecha are automatically endowed with greater AC and Fortitude defenses and a weaker Reflex defense.
Furthermore, since the character is piloting it, it seems logical to me that their abilities should influence the capabilities of the mecha. Maybe make it so that only proficient characters can add their level bonus and ability modifiers to the mecha's defenses.
As to the slots available on a mecha, I'm inclined to say that it should have the same slots as a player character. This, of course, assumes that the magic items worn by the character are nullified if the piloted mecha has equipment in that slot.
On the topic of healing surges, I think it can be doable to make healing surges usable on mecha. There is no reason I can think of why a character that is mechanically inclined (or magically inclined if the mecha is mystical) cannot posses a utility mecha-repair power that allows them to spend a healing surge on their mecha. Like a pilot runnining emergency jury-rigged repairs to get back into the fight. This should probably be restricted to a daily poer though, and extensive repair would basically be a mechanical or magical ritual.
I have a few reservations about treating mecha like vehicles. Frankly, I don't like that larger mecha are automatically endowed with greater AC and Fortitude defenses and a weaker Reflex defense.
Furthermore, since the character is piloting it, it seems logical to me that their abilities should influence the capabilities of the mecha. Maybe make it so that only proficient characters can add their level bonus and ability modifiers to the mecha's defenses.
As to the slots available on a mecha, I'm inclined to say that it should have the same slots as a player character. This, of course, assumes that the magic items worn by the character are nullified if the piloted mecha has equipment in that slot.
On the topic of healing surges, I think it can be doable to make healing surges usable on mecha. There is no reason I can think of why a character that is mechanically inclined (or magically inclined if the mecha is mystical) cannot posses a utility mecha-repair power that allows them to spend a healing surge on their mecha. Like a pilot runnining emergency jury-rigged repairs to get back into the fight. This should probably be restricted to a daily poer though, and extensive repair would basically be a mechanical or magical ritual.
I'd think that mecha should be treated more as equipment than a vehicle. Note that most vehicles that can carry more than one person have significant crew requirements, but rarely ever more than the party itself can fill. That's generally because of the "don't split the party" philosophy of 4e. Nobody sits out of a scene or anything...at least, they're not supposed to.
I'd say mecha OR their weapons/items should get a prof bonus like any piece of equipment (meaning I think armor bonuses should've been lowered and given prof bonuses like weapons...since you can wear any armor, but it doesn't do much good if you don't know how to cope with it...but I also think simple weapons should've been limited to +1 prof). Player equipment shouldn't matter at all if the mecha is going to instead have equipment. It's just too hairy to conditionally allow the player's equipment to affect the mecha. I don't even know how they'd do it...but the powergamers would find a way to abuse the fact, and then the "mecha are always broken" detractors would claim that they were right.
The player's basic stats should take precedence, while the capabilities of the mecha should simply be modifiers of varying sorts (within reason compared to other equipment and so on) to that base.
Using your second wind in the mecha shouldn't matter. It's merely an abstraction of a surge of determination and focus, which would help a pilot as much as any character. Keeping it simple means keeping things working exactly as they do already...or with as little alteration as possible. As for other uses of healing surges or temp HP, it might be that they grant you addtional moments, or sudden clarity of thought, to make a quick and minor adjustment or two to keep the mech going. Outside of combat, a ritual-like prodedure should definitely be required to fully restore the mecha.
I'm going to look over the summoning and polymorph rules in the PHB II and see if I can draw some inspiration regarding how one's mecha "pops" into the fight and how it interacts in the encounter.
- gives character temporary hp
- grants powers (not replaces); mecha's base strength modifier replaces character's
- check penalty if non-prof (like armor), weapon prof (only if prof)
- pilot cannot wear other armor inside?
- all bonuses from worn non-armor still apply, tho' for weapon powers, you must depend on the mecha's weapons
- when summoned, must replace pilot's space, and any unoccupied extra space it needs
- disappears to be replaced with pilot if temp hp is reduced to zero
ARMOR (L mecha)
temp. HP 150 Space 2x2 Cost 2500 gp
AC +4 Fort +2 Ref +0 Will +0
Speed 8, fly 20
Str 25 (base +12; +1/2 pilot's level)
Large Longsword Str vs AC; 1d10+12 damage
Large Greatsword Str vs AC; 1d12+24 damage
Okay. Let's try a more equipment take.
- gives character temporary hp
- grants powers (not replaces); mecha's base strength modifier replaces character's
- check penalty if non-prof (like armor), weapon prof (only if prof)
- pilot cannot wear other armor inside?
- all bonuses from worn non-armor still apply, tho' for weapon powers, you must depend on the mecha's weapons
- when summoned, must replace pilot's space, and any unoccupied extra space it needs
- disappears to be replaced with pilot if temp hp is reduced to zero
ARMOR (L mecha)
temp. HP 150 Space 2x2 Cost 2500 gp
AC +4 Fort +2 Ref +0 Will +0
Speed 8, fly 20
Str 25 (base +12; +1/2 pilot's level)
Large Longsword Str vs AC; 1d10+12 damage
Large Greatsword Str vs AC; 1d12+24 damage
There is a lot of thought-provoking goodness here.
*The mecha definitely occupies the pilot's space when summoned, that's how the pilot gets into it.
*The Strength bonus thing is new and interesting. Mecha (and power armor for that matter) are definitely likely to be stronger than the pilot. I don't recall seeing attribute boosting magic items in the PHB, but I've only briefly leafed through that part of it. I think the most likely solution to that is just to give an attribute bonus based on teir. Maybe a mecha or power armor grants a +1 to Strength (and maybe Dexterity for anime-style mecha) at Heroic, +2 at paragon, and +4 at epic.
*The Fort defense bonus could be a standard or it could be subsumed by a Constitution bonus, like the aforementioned teir based Strength bonuses.
*Definitely a proficiency bonus for the mecha's weapons and a non-porificient value for the mecha's AC bonus. Just one of the reasons it pays to be a trained mecha pilot.
What you suggested, +x to all Str-based attacks, etc, sounds good too (derived stats like defenses should be added to separately for the same reason as above), +Dex representing assisted targeting programs (crosshairs, etc).
What you suggested, +x to all Str-based attacks, etc, sounds good too (derived stats like defenses should be added to separately for the same reason as above), +Dex representing assisted targeting programs (crosshairs, etc).
You are certainly right about the ability score alteration being a pain. Translating them directly into the appropriate bonuses definitely sounds like a better plan now that you've given me somthing to consider.
I was also assuming the + Dex would cover the agility of anime style mecha and power armor. But a bonus to Reflex would certainly accomplish the same.
That's not to imply the suggestions of various posters haven't been extremely helpful, it's just food for thought regarding future suggestions. 4e is totally unlike other games, so the mechanically fluffed conventions of other incarnations don't necessarily apply. In 4e, fluff and mechanics don't always go directly hand-in-hand.
I'd suggest characters can retain the possession of all their equipment, it simply doesn't provide any sort of benefit at all. No bonuses or penalties, and no powers or properties. It'll be the mech that does everything for them in place of their normal equipment...like a reverse application of Wild Shape, sort of. It's just easier that way than trying to account for how to "get rid of" the equipment.
Now that I think of it though, perhaps different "mech models" could have features or the like that correspond and compliment certain classes, or at least roles? Then characters who chose to become mech pilots don't have to completely sacrifice their role or class, and mechs would probably flow in the game a little better.
Conjuration, PH2, pg. 220
A conjuration you create uses these rules, unless a power description says otherwise.
✦ Occupies No Squares: The conjuration occupies
no squares.
✦ Unaffected by the Environment: Terrain and
environmental phenomena have no effect on the
conjuration. For example, a conjuration that is an
icy hand functions in an inferno without penalty.
The conjuration does not need to be supported by
a solid surface, so it can float in the air.
✦ Your Defenses: Normally, a conjuration cannot
be attacked or physically affected. If a conjuration
can be attacked or physically affected, it uses your
defenses. Unless an attack specifically targets conjurations,
only the attack’s damage (not including
ongoing damage) affects the conjuration.
✦ Attacking with a Conjuration: If you can attack
with a conjuration, you make the attack. You determine
line of sight normally, but you determine line
of effect from the conjuration.
✦ Movable Conjurations: If the power you use
to create a conjuration allows you to move it, it’s
a movable conjuration. At the end of your turn,
the movable conjuration ends if you are not within
range of at least 1 square it’s in (using the power’s
range) or if you don’t have line of effect to at
least 1 square it’s in.
When you move a conjuration, you can’t move it
through a solid obstacle.
✦ Death Ends: If you die, the conjuration ends
immediately.
✦ Occupies No Squares: The conjuration occupies
no squares.
✦ Unaffected by the Environment: Terrain and
environmental phenomena have no effect on the
conjuration. For example, a conjuration that is an
icy hand functions in an inferno without penalty.
The conjuration does not need to be supported by
a solid surface, so it can float in the air.
✦ Your Defenses: Normally, a conjuration cannot
be attacked or physically affected. If a conjuration
can be attacked or physically affected, it uses your
defenses. Unless an attack specifically targets conjurations,
only the attack’s damage (not including
ongoing damage) affects the conjuration.
✦ Attacking with a Conjuration: If you can attack
with a conjuration, you make the attack. You determine
line of sight normally, but you determine line
of effect from the conjuration.
✦ Movable Conjurations: If the power you use
to create a conjuration allows you to move it, it’s
a movable conjuration. At the end of your turn,
the movable conjuration ends if you are not within
range of at least 1 square it’s in (using the power’s
range) or if you don’t have line of effect to at
least 1 square it’s in.
When you move a conjuration, you can’t move it
through a solid obstacle.
✦ Death Ends: If you die, the conjuration ends
immediately.
Mech pilots are a 'class' or set of classes. Mecha could be a powertype allowing for a range of base configurations.
Mecha are a special type of armor - proficiency is granted by a class feature (common to the power source aka Channel Divinity). You can use the different types of armor as bases for the different classes of mecha.
The mecha armor works like a warforged - it has embedded and attached equipment. That equipment is equivalent to magic item slots on a character.
Additional abilities that the armor grants can be given through class features, paragon paths, epic destinies and class-specific feats.
Giant armor works best as a plot device because of the implications of scale in 4E. I can see some classes (the mecha defender) gaining oversized armor in the paragon / epic levels (probably represented by increased reach aka the stoneblessed pp or the eternal defender ed). If you want the ability to change scale, it can be an attack power along the lines of the swordmage's 22 utility giant's might.
I'd further suggest treating them similarly to vehicles like carts or wagons by giving them a direction they're facing and moving in. Let them detect all directions against other mecha through sensors, but only 'see' enemies on foot where they're looking. This would let characters on foot use stealth skills and other abilities to try climbing on and attacking it with personal weapons or maybe bomb charges.
Also, if you hit a character on foot why not instead of damage (Unless they have some sort of armor or shielding that can withstand the massive attack) you roll it as Attack vs. Reflexes against death? Terrain could give cover and defense bonuses to this.
Hrm. I suppose if they were treated as a strange mix of vehicle/mount with player character style mecha equipment slots... At least, that's the line of thinking this gives me when I read it. The mount mix would give it stats, abilities and even attacks/feats specific to specific vehicles that only trained pilots could access.
That's an interesting idea - adding a 'mount type element' would add the mobility typically given to mecha.
Another idea - provided you're using a set of unique powers - is making use of the full discipline keyword. Since mecha traditionally have the same insane mobility that monks are supposed to have it could work fairly well.
Or, that's what I think.
Plus it'd let pilot abilities also focus on passive increases of mecha stats, attacks, AC, etc and put more attacks directly on the vehicle. Except for some more unique moves that would probably be pilot only for placement.
Or, that's what I think.
Plus it allows for additional bulk - if you preserve the concept of 'mounts' as large creatures, a character could have a 'hard suit' plus a 'mount' that provides additional mobility and armament (I'm thinking Priss's motorcycle in Bubblegum Crisis). The full suit would be a large creature, but the character could just wear the hardsuit when spcae is an issue (such as a dungeon crawl).
Dragon Armor
Medium vehicle
HP 100 Space 1 square Cost 1000gp
AC 26; Fortitude 24, Reflex 20
Speed 6
Pilot
It takes a standard action to get into the Dragon Armor and a Move action to seal it.
Load
One medium creature, 50 pounds of gear.
Power up (Standard; At-Will)
You spend two healing surges without regaining any hp, instead the armor gains temporary hp equal to 2x your healing surge value and the dragon armor powers up. While the dragon armor is powered up you treat its physical defenses as your own. The dragon armor stays powered up for 8 hours or until the dragon armor runs out of the temporary hp.
Powered down
When the armor is not powered up and sealed you add 100 pounds to the weight you are carrying. Also you have a -2 to your attacks and your reflex defense.
Sealed
As long as the dragon armor is sealed and still has hp left it will take any damage targeted at you.
Zero hp
The armor will no longer move.
Mecha in my world are called Power Frames, they literally leach the power out of the wielder in order to operate (this helps to get rid of the concept of power source ie. electricity, steam power, nuclear power etc.). In this respect, the mecha functions as a full set of gear, from head to foot. The player loses the benefits of any other gear while inside the mecha, with the exception of some weapons, which can be wielded by the mecha. The mecha provides DR, relative to the level of the mecha and a bonus to Armor - +12 for the heavy power frame variety (counts as heavy armor), and +6 for the light frame (counts as light armor) variety. The frame provides no benefit to any other defenses. If the player inside dies, the frame is unsummoned. The character becomes large size and gains whatever benefits come with this as well as the downsides. All frames have a base land speed of +10 for heavy frames and +12 for light frames. Frames have slots just like players do, and those slots can be upgraded or enchanted just as magic items are.
Multiple "types" of Power Frames exist, each takes it power from a different power source: Arcane Power Frames, Martial Power Frames, Divine Power Frames, Primal Power Frames, Psionic Power Frames etc., but in order to actually use a power frame, a player must take one of either to feats. Power Frame Proficiency - which allows the player to get the basic bonuses from using the frame, or MC feet into Frame Wielder, which allows the player to use thier own attacks and channel them through the mecha for power by taking the Acolyte, Novice, and Adept feets, which under this MC allow the player to use any of his at-will, encounter, or daily powers while using the mecha rather than simply gaining the use of another power from a different class.
I've got more, maybe i'll post it up here later if you like what i have so far. Feel free to check out my actual campaign setting for the original posting: setting name is On'gaka - i'm working on it over at Obsidian Portal. Laterz
Mecha System framework
It probably needs a bit of tweaking, and I haven't had a chance to work out powers yet, but it looks promising.