Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 epochgames Mar 11, 2009 8:58:12	Well, here I am again, doesn't looko like all too much has changed. Good. I like it here. Unfortunately, some of the delay and other things that happened during that time left a bad taste in some of my team's mouths and others scattered to the wind. I felt a lot safer, waiting to see if specific changes I was hoping for make it into the SRD/GSL. I guess 1 out of 6 isn't bad. In the meantime, I've been wanting to move on a modern based variation of 4e as a personal hobby for some time now. The main problem I'm running into is, I am weak on mechanics...particularly more weak than I'd like to admit when it comes to handling new powers. This board has always been great for advice, and so I turn here yet again. FF6shadow has already helped me a good deal, and I hope he will continue to do so. So, I'm looking for more help now. Like I said, it's a hobby, will probably end up being fan PDF, but I'd like to get some help doing what I know I can't. Of course, I'll also be turning to these boards for playtesters and such, but right now I am hoping I can find some people to help with maintaining game balance and 4e feel while also creating new powers/rules/rules variants. If you're someone that would be interested in this, please reply here, send me a PM or email, or hit me up via AIM/YIM. Thanks, Cam
#2 katahn Mar 11, 2009 12:03:10	This sounds interesting. It should be a pretty easy adaptation actually in most ways, assuming you don't try to convert the mechanics of 3e Modern to 4e but rather ask yourself how to make a D&D game, classes, skills, and feats that would fit a modern setting. Essentially convert a setting the same way 3e to 4e character conversion was approached: with an eye towards the result rather than the mechanics. Class-wise I can see the martial power source characters being pretty straightforward and completely useable if one wants to run a sort of cinematic modern setting. A grittier, more "realistic" modern would probably be better handled with an entirely different gaming system like GURPS. Professions, in the sense of "I'm a " would not be something I'd try to translate into classes. They'd either be purely RP contrivances or covered as a combination of skills and/or feats. "Is a Cop" for instance could be a feat that provides a certain set of bonuses and advantages like being able to get some kinds of weapons more easily, being able to 'call for backup', and so on. But a "Cop" could either be a striker (ie. shoot the bad guys), a leader (who inspires the men and women in his command), or a defender (serve and protect).
#3 epochgames Mar 11, 2009 12:39:59	Yeah, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. It's a modern/military type setting. While I often hate to draw comparisons, along the lines of what Spycraft did for 3e. Use the base rules of 4e, and move them over. I have a few stumbling blocks in that, I'd like to be a little more original on some takes. For example, I just threw my hands up in frustration on the Commander class as I was working on it. Some advice ff6shadow had given was to utilizes the core material as much as possible, and try to base classes off of what was there. This makes sense, and was what I was trying to do, but I was missing the connection between certain dots. So, we come to the task of creating the Commander class. This is pretty much a straight draw from the base Warlord class. As I look over everything I might as well just note that the commander is identical to the warlord and be done with it, but I'd rather have something new to offer. Warlord should make a good basis of the new class, but not completely overtake it, IMO. To give another example, since it's a modern/military based game, melee weapons don't carry the weight they do as in tradition D&D, except for a specific class or two. The ranger, for example, played a starring role in my layout of the Shooter class. With that, I went with dual pistols or sniper for the builds, rather than dual melee and ranged for the builds. So, a number of the powers will have to be scrapped/rewritten. Again, not too hard of an idea, but I'd like to do more than just take all the old powers and switch melee to pistols or something similar. There are a few changes I have already made or am in the process of making. For example, there are no races here. So, I have created Origins such as Criminal, Celebrity, Street, etc. I am also trying to work in organizations such as Navy, Air Force, Marines, FBI, etc. These will, of course, need to be checked for balance when the time is right. I have also done away with the traditional weapon proficiencies, while keeping the standard of simple, martial, and superior. I decided that weapon groups worked better for this setting for a number of reasons. This is the sort of help I'm looking for, not just a conversion, but a creation. I appreciate Katahn's assistance, and hope s/he continues to provide it. But, I realized that maybe I needed to give a little bit more information on where my mind is headed here and exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks again
#4 katahn Mar 11, 2009 13:17:23	I think you could pretty easily turn "two weapon fighting" into "dual pistols" for a modern setting. Mechanically I'd leave the actual benefits (either for the ranger class advantage or the feat) the same, just note that they apply to firing one-handed firearms instead. I don't understand your reluctance to just use the warlord class as-is though. It certainly would be *nice* to have all new shiny modern class equivilents, but my first question before trying one would always be: why can't a previously existing class work here? Beyond flavor text changes, I don't see how the warlord wouldn't work. That said, I do see a valid point in making a "Gunbunny" class that is a modern re-invention of the "ranged striker" (ranger). About 90% of the work would just be in re-flavoring it and editing melee abilities so they are instead applied to firearms, the other 10% would be to translate the "wilderness" part into something applicable for a modern gunbunny. I would strongly recommend you *not* make a "hacker" class though (ie. someone specialized in computer security and infiltration). In my experience in cyberpunk-themed games, it often worked out that whenever the game wasn't in "the net" the hacker-type character was left with almost nothing to do, and when it did involve "the net" everyone else was left with little to do. It is the modern equivilent to the "ok now the skillmonkey classes can have fun" vs. "ok now the skillmonkey is bored because it is a fight" dilemma. Instead make these things, like most other elements of the game, dependant on feats and skills. Speaking of which, here's a first brush at modern skill groups: computers (software), electronics (hardware), mechanics (hardware). There are probably some others, but I still need to take some time to contemplate if they aren't really just specific applications of already existing skills.
#5 epochgames Mar 11, 2009 14:20:38	Thanks once again, Katahn. You make a very good point. It would be nice to have all shiny newness, but is it really necessary? Probably not. Considering this is a hobby project, I think just finishing it is the top priority. If I want to go back and change the tires later, I can do that, rather than trying to reinvent the wheel off the bat. I plan on going out and relaxing a bit today, so I'll keep this option in mind and come up with a decision, but I think you're right yet again. AS for the hacker type character, I considered it...heavily. I came to the same conclusion as you. They're fun, and neat, and shiny, but they don't lend themselves well to a group game. So, I scrapped it for the same reasons you mentioned. You're right along my lines of thinking in terms of skill as well, although I am trying to find if there is a need/use for a Tactic (Int) skill. AS for reflavoring nature/wilderness, I'm going with a new path of Security--this covers alarm systems, knowledge of basic architecture as it applies to different secure layouts, etc. I have to write it up yet, but that's my thought. Thievery remains for picking locks, pockets, etc., but can't compare to the modern alarm and surveillance systems of today.
#6 katahn Mar 11, 2009 15:11:30	AS for reflavoring nature/wilderness, I'm going with a new path of Security--this covers alarm systems, knowledge of basic architecture as it applies to different secure layouts, etc. I have to write it up yet, but that's my thought. Thievery remains for picking locks, pockets, etc., but can't compare to the modern alarm and surveillance systems of today. I don't think you need to come up with a "modern thievery" skill unless you're planning on crossing over this game with a traditional D&D setting (say via a gateway or such). If you are only talking about the modern world, just say the thievery skill applies to modern locks and security measures and continue along your merry way. Here's a thought on "modern wilderness" though... what if your modern rangers were reflavored as "urban commandos and bounty hunters"? So instead of hunting animals and being adept in the wild, they are hunting people and being adept in the "urban jungle". One thing a strictly modern (ie. non-magical, or only martial sources allowed) setting will be weak is the lack of a good controller class. This can be worked around I think by simply removing the need for a controller in encounter design (ie. no large groups of minions just waiting to be fireballed into oblivion...) But I find myself pondering how a modern martial controller might work or be designed, thus far a good concept is eluding me though.
#7 SteelMirror Mar 11, 2009 15:20:02	One problem you will run into very quickly is the complete re-conceptualization of the Defender role. Since marking works a certain way for fighters in 4E, and that depends on the prevalence of melee combat, you need to redesign the role of Defender to be useful in ranged combat. I did some work on a firearms combat system myself for a wild west setting and would be happy to share everything I learned.
#8 ceiling90 Mar 11, 2009 15:59:52	I thought about a Modern style Martial controller, and it involves lots of explosives. Basically a grenadier/engineer class, that pretty has some firearms capabilities, but is very heavily influenced by mines, grenades, and some heavy duty explosives; or on the flip side, be a heavy set strong type man with the really heavy guns, like chainguns and rocket launchers. The only issue would be cost of explosives and the materials; versus let's say the tweaked ranger and his bullets. I also considered defender and their marks... No idea. But I'll be watching this thread though...
#9 epochgames Mar 11, 2009 20:12:28	You might be right that thievery just needs to be thievery and leave it at that. I still like security more, so might just get rid of thievery and build it into security. I'm always up for more information. In particular with the fighter's marking, there really isn't any wording that requires it to be melee. The way I looked at it, was putting the mark down was essentially drawing a bead on your opponent, or laying down suppressive fire, moving into a position where they're apt to attack would be difficult. I know that's not how it was originally envisioned, but could possibly be redone with the proper wording. Maybe? Controller is the same thing I was thinking, an explosives expert. I hadn't thought of the heavy gunner, but it could work. With the explosives, though, there's several ways a grenade could work, from a simple flash bang to a glue bomb, so some interesting effects could be made. Plus, while it is a modern setting, it's still got fantasy elements, such as virtually unlimited resources ;-p. I'm sure I could word that better, but I want to hurry up and get back to work on this; you have all given me some great help and things to think about.
#10 epochgames Mar 12, 2009 1:33:15	Here's a more specific question. In terms of balance, how bad is it to switch some of the abilities that are just melee over to melee AND ranged. For example, the level one encounter exploit of the fighter, Steel Serpent Strike. It could be renamed and reworked to include ranged attacks as well, would this topple the balance? There are several powers like this, so it's just one example.
#11 SteelMirror Mar 12, 2009 1:35:51	I agree, the marking mechanic (i.e. -2 to attacks) can be used at a range, but the idea that a defender sticks you in one place and prevents you from maneuvering, or places himself between the enemy and the squishy party members, that needs work. Also cover is an important area of the rules that needs more attention. I'll dig up my previous playing around with the system and show it to you, and see if anything strikes you as workable or interesting. I also have visions of military-themed missions playing in my head. Maneuver through urban terrain, fight off enemies positioned for ambush throughout the area, approach fortified building and verify that it is free of civilians . . . then call in close air support! Alternatively, if you are going for a less realistic approach, close air support would make a pretty sweet daily . . .:D
#12 epochgames Mar 12, 2009 1:39:38	It's kind of a cross between realistic and not so much....think GI Joe....that's the level of realism I'm going for. Funny you should mention it, since I threw up my hands in frustration a few minutes ago with a dilemma and moved over to converting and expanding upon vehicle rules/
#13 SteelMirror Mar 12, 2009 1:43:01	Well I'm a Marine Officer Candidate so I'm willing to help out with military terminology/doctrine/f*****g bad***** $h*t! Although there are also plenty of other military in the forum, so you might get a lot of help there. As for mechanics, I'm sending you some of my stuff in a few minutes . . .
#14 epochgames Mar 12, 2009 1:48:17	Well I'm a Marine Officer Candidate so I'm willing to help out with military terminology/doctrine/f*****g bad***** $h*t! Although there are also plenty of other military in the forum, so you might get a lot of help there. As for mechanics, I'm sending you some of my stuff in a few minutes . . . That's way too awesome, and thank you...both on more than one level.
#15 SteelMirror Mar 12, 2009 1:58:55	OK, I found my old Wild West stuff, how should I get it to you? PM me with your email if you want, that's probably the easiest way to do it! EDIT: Also, have you thought about how you want to handle rapid fire with weapons? I might have a few ideas, if you're interested in an annoying collaborater . . .
#16 epochgames Mar 12, 2009 2:43:21	I know I need to figure out how to handle rapid fire. I was actually looking at another old RPG that had rules for different types of fire including spray, burst, full auto. But, I'm not sure that they would work. I am always interested in another contributor....do my posts make it that obvious that I'm annoying? Drat. I'll have to work on that. I got your email and replied. You've got some pretty good stuff there.
#17 epochgames Mar 12, 2009 4:59:56	So, I worked up these skills today. I went over tactics, which I like the idea of being a skill, but think it may betetr serve as a variety of feats instead. New Skills Wince the GI Joe RPG takes a new turn in being in a modern setting as opposed to a sword and sorcery setting, there are several issues to explore. One of those items is character skills. We have added a handful of skills to the game to enable characters to perform more modern tasks. We will utilize the same layout for these new skills as the D&D PHB uses for the sake of simplicity. The news skills we have added and their descriptions follow. Computers Intelligence Operative, Technician Academics Intelligence Medic, Commander, Operative Security * Wisdom Operative, Technician, Shooter Tactics Intelligence Commander, Technician Espionage Charisma Operative *This skill actually replaces one or more skills, please see the description for more information. Academics (Intelligence) This skill covers a variety of subjects not covered by other skills. Each time it is selected, you should select a specialty, a specific area of knowledge your character is familiar with. Such specialties include Biology, Explosives, Architecture, Literature, and any number of things that can be book learned or taught. Alternatively, this skill can replace such skills as History or Religion. The MC should approve any time a character selects this skill. Knowledge: This skill can be used on the spot to see if your character is familiar with the given subject or piece of information. DC: See table. Success: You can recall important details on the subject. Failure: You can try again after 4 hours. If you have researched the topic during that time, you gain a cumalitive +2 to the skill check. (+2 for every four hours spent researching). Knowledge & Recollection Knowledge DC Information is Considered Common Knowledge 10 Information is Trivial 15 Information is Guarded Secret or New Application of Old Data 20 Topic Falls within a Particular Purview of Your Character (as decided by the MC) -4 Topic is only Partially Related to Your Specialty +5 Research: By using the Academics skill, you are able to research your chosen specialty and even related fields. Using the Academics skill in this way takes between 1 and 2 hours. DC: 12 (15 if only related to your speciality) Success: You find the information you were looking for, and are able to put it to use. Failure: You do not find the information you were looking for, although it may help with a later Knowledge check (see above). Computers Whether it is hacking into a secure database, upgrading your machine’s hardware, or writing a new application, Computers is the skill to use. Basic Use: This allows you to properly navigate your way around a computer system. DC: 10 Success: Yu are able to call up and use the necessary application, shutdown, and perform basic troubleshooting. Failure: The computer outsmarted you on this one. Yu can try again in an hour, but right now, it just won’t do what you want it to. Hacking: Gaining access to a secure system without proper authorization, undoing another programmer’s work, or installing a malware on another system all falls under this use of the Computer skill. DC: See Table Success: You are able to gain access to the system or install the piece of software as intended. Failure: You are locked out by the target systems software. You can retry, but not for 24 hours. Hacking Hacking DC Target system is unprotected 10 Target system has commercially available security software. 15 Target system’s security software is high grade, customer, possibly military. 20 You are physically at the target system. -2 System uses an unfamiliar OS. +5 Programming: Your knowledge of computers extends to their language and allows you to write programs and applications. This is usually set as an extended roll, and DC should be set by the MC. Designing a web page might be a DC 10 or 15, depending on complexity. Writing a new firewall application might be 25 or higher. Upgrades: You utilize your knowledge to know what piece of hardware will improve your system’s performance and install it. DC: 12 Success: You are able to successfully upgrade your computer as per the Computer Equipment rules. Failure: Your upgrade is unsuccessful. You can retry after 24 hours. Espionage This skill covers a vast area of skills, enabling you to gain entry into enemy installations and their forces. Disguise: Use this skill to properly disguise yourself to avoid detection. This includes wearing make-up and wigs, how you carry yourself, and even your speech patterns and dialect. DC: Set by MC or versus another’s Perception check. Success: You are able to pass yourself off as the false identity. Failure: Your disguise doesn’t work and cannot be tried again for a week. Concealment: You know how to hide an item on your person. Others will not fined concealed weapons, documents, or similar items on your person. DC: Set by MC or versus another’s Perception check. Success: You are able to get by without the item being detected. Failure: The item you were trying to hide during the search is detected. Pick Pocket: This is the same as the Pick Pocket use of the Thievery skill listed in the D&D PHB 1. Sabotage: Due to your investigations, you know the way to inflict maximum damage to an enemy operation or installation. DC: 15 Success: determined by the MC, usually extra damage from explosives, or a particular key task cannot be completed. Failure: Your idea doesn’t work, and there is no benefit. Security Being able to set up or slip by defenses, the Security skill will help get you there. Pick Locks: Identical to the Pick Locks feature of the Thievery skill presented in the D&D PHB 1. Alarm Systems: This skill enables you to set up or disarm security systems and alarms. The DC is the same as for Pick Locks when trying to Disarm. For setting up a security system, use the information provided below. DC: See Table Below Success: As per the table below Failure: If your skill meets any of the DCs below, it will adapt the success of those Traits. If it meets none of the following DCs, it does not work at all. Alarm Systems Alarm Systems DC Set up a system that requires security skill to disarm, or will sound either a monitored, silent, or audible alarm, or any combination thereof. 10 As above, but adds +2 to the DC for anyone trying to disarm it. 15 As above, but DC is +4 for anyone trying to disarm it. 20 Surveillance Catching a particular target on video or audio equipment. This is a contested roll versus Stealth, and can be used at a time long after the stealth skill has been utilized.
#18 epochgames Mar 13, 2009 5:30:23	As I get further along, I will post different sections in different post, I suppose. In the meantime, I was hoping someone might be able to help me with the mechanics of Programming and Surveillance. Any other comments are, as always, welcome.
#19 daeger Mar 13, 2009 6:40:27	Pft! Who needs all that hullabaloo? Simply knock the ranged weapons up a damage step or two and use the classes right out of the book and just replace concepts as necessary! "Okay my wiza-er, soldier marches up to the front line and lays down a scorching bur-er, I mean, lets loose a barrage of bullets from his wa-uh, AK-47 and sprays down this area." "Bob, the enemy panzer tank swivels in your direction as you lay down your line of fire as you suddenly feel the heat of its flamethrower at your back." (Whispering) "**** guys I think that tank is using dragon stats."
#20 daeger Mar 13, 2009 6:41:04	double post
#21 epochgames Mar 13, 2009 6:52:40	Dragon stats LOL You make a good point, and it could almost work, perhaps a handful of house rules. IMO, some things don't translate over excatly well, but that doesn't mean it can't be done. I'm doing this as a hobby and practice. Plus, if I already have everything wroked out, it'll be much easier to handle player questions before they arrive. In fact, we already tried *something* like that, but we ran into issues like the guy who wanted to hack an enemy computer system, we used thievery, but started realizing thievery would become almost godly. Then, a player complained his MP5 didn't have any benefit between single shot and semi-auto or full auto. Sure, I could wait for the actual 4e modern to come out, but considering it's not even on a release schedule yet, that could be awhile and possibly leave me in the same spot.
#22 daeger Mar 13, 2009 7:05:08	Dragon stats LOL You make a good point, and it could almost work, perhaps a handful of house rules. IMO, some things don't translate over excatly well, but that doesn't mean it can't be done. I'm doing this as a hobby and practice. Plus, if I already have everything wroked out, it'll be much easier to handle player questions before they arrive. In fact, we already tried *something* like that, but we ran into issues like the guy who wanted to hack an enemy computer system, we used thievery, but started realizing thievery would become almost godly. Then, a player complained his MP5 didn't have any benefit between single shot and semi-auto or full auto. Sure, I could wait for the actual 4e modern to come out, but considering it's not even on a release schedule yet, that could be awhile and possibly leave me in the same spot. I would've gone with arcana for computer hacking. Or religion. Both are int skills.
#23 epochgames Mar 13, 2009 7:06:54	Well, for that game, it was more a modern fantasy setting, so both of those skills were being used for their original purpose.
#24 daeger Mar 13, 2009 7:07:30	Well, for that game, it was more a modern fantasy setting, so both of those skills were being used for their original purpose. Dungeoneering? :P
#25 epochgames Mar 13, 2009 7:17:39	Perhaps. Then again, the classes with dungeoneering wouldn't typically be who you might expect to hack a computer, and that's easily fixable, but would've required a bit better foresight, which is part of the reason behind this exercise. To not require so much planning ahead of time. There's it's already been done, all in one neat little package, ready to go. To each their own, I suppose. Some would just rather use and modify the rules as is. Me, I enjoy having the stuff laid out for easy reference when creating a character or planning an adventure. There are several things I'd like to add, so that's what I'm going to do here. Some like the idea, and some hate it, kinda like anything else out there. *shrug*
#26 katahn Mar 13, 2009 7:36:11	Hacking, or rather Computers skill, would be seperate. In a modern setting it is sufficiently different from the othre skills that I think adding it is justified. Since it is a modern fantasy and you need to keep the other skills "pure", adding modern equivilents is almost a necessity in some cases (for areas like "Science", "Mechanics", "Computers", and so on). The trick then becomes either giving classes additional skills they can take (instead of pick 3, they get pick 4) and adding these new skills to the lists of skills allowed.