4E Summon Monster Conversion - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

4E Summon Monster Conversion

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
lordnightshade
May 08, 2010 9:52:21 Can anyone think of a good and balanced way to convert the 3.5 summon monster spells to 4th Edition? I really enjoyed them before, as did my players, and now the wizard feels handicapped by the new spells.
#2
pluisjen
May 08, 2010 10:50:27 There's already a Summoner build in Arcane Power, you should probably have a look at that one.
#3
lordnightshade
May 08, 2010 12:18:34 I hve seen the build but I still feel that the powers are not narly as expansive. With the old spells you could summon mltiple monsters from a list of available creatures. The new spells give you one mnster you are capable of summoning.
#4
pluisjen
May 08, 2010 12:21:44 You could try to design some more summon spells and write a bunch of them in your spellbook? That lets you prepare the kind of summons you want each day.

I don't think you'll be able to balance a Daily that is really 4 dailies all on its own because it summons 4 totally different kinds of monsters.

(And if they're all almost the same, a bit of fluff can probably be enough; the stats for a Summoned Lion and a Summoned Tiger can be equal)
#5
stargazer_dragon
May 10, 2010 2:01:49 it wouldn't take to much to alter a summon into a encounter power by changing some stats and durations and junk. This would allow even more possible summons.
#6
pluisjen
May 10, 2010 4:06:11 Encounter powers generally last until the end of your next round, not the end of the encounter.. it'd be hard to model summons like that. Not to mention that the idea of "saps damage away from the Wizard" gets pretty powerful if the monster only lasts one turn anyway.

What you could do is Multiclass as a Shaman, that gets you the Spirit companion which is an encounter based summon.

Oh and Feats! Feats are good.

Things like:

Winged Summons
Prerequisite: Wizard
Effect: When you summon a creature by using a Wizard power, you may give that creature a fly speed of 6 (hover), but if you do so it takes a -1 penalty to attack rolls and defenses.

It gives you the option to modify your summons, but it does have a bit of a drawback so you can't pile on a crapton of bonusses at no loss.
#7
Bandikoot
May 10, 2010 14:20:44 I thought about it a while back as my group dislikes the 4E summon system. What I briefly toyed around with was replacing the wizard summon creatures with an actual creature from the MM of the power's level (standard of course, no solo or elites). It would then share all its actions with the wizard that had summoned it. This got around the big complaint of all the summoned creature's stats being based off of the wizard.

The problem of couse is the way in which things scale in 4E. A few levels down the road, the summoned monster is worthless. You can help alleviate this by using the monster leveling rules in the DMG, but that means you have to remember to level your monsters every time your PC levels.

Another idea I had was to make a ritual that the PCs used to summon monsters. These would scale close to the PCs level so you wouldn't have to worry about leveling your monsters. Outside of combat, the PC could just use a minor action to order their monster around, but in combat they would share actions. Once again the monster would use its own stats. It would stick around for awhile (based on an arcana check) or until the end of the next combat, whichever came first.
#8
stargazer_dragon
May 10, 2010 14:22:09 encounter power summons are not realy unbalenceing they would be no stronger then a effect that stays untill your next round which there are many at wills and encounters that do that, make it so it attacks the target when summoned and gets a OA against any enimie that moves next to it. this is definatly not over powered as the fact of it being a summon simply means it can be attacked and disapated sooner, I would make it not use any surges or hp no matter if it is killed or not, think of it as a single round zone effect which again look at current powers there are many
#9
urpriest
May 10, 2010 15:58:06 One interesting method would be to have the summoned monsters be characters. Balance the fights for more characters than your players, and the wizard spends the first turn summoning another PC. The new PC then acts normally, under the wizard's control. Use monstery races and class combinations to simulate extraplanar beings (favored souls make decent angels, minotaurs make fun devils, etc.). Frankly, this is the sort of thing I would have done as a 3.5 summoner via a cohort. It fits the flavor of fantasy summoners better, you can have an ongoing relationship with your summons, etc.
#10
pluisjen
May 10, 2010 16:10:33 While an interesting urpriest, this is something you shouldn't just discuss with your DM but with the entire group as it means a lot of spotlight is going to be on the Wizard and his "summons", something 4e tried to avoid.
#11
salla
May 10, 2010 16:46:12 Another option is simply reflavoring your other spells to look like momentary summons.

Scorching Burst? Nope, I summoned a fire imp over there and he let loose an explosion before going back to the plane I called him from.

Icy Terrain? Nah, a little ice drake popped up and breathed frost on the ground, making it slippery.
#12
stargazer_dragon
May 11, 2010 1:47:24 thats exactly what I was tring to say earlier salla, I was refering to reflavoring powers that lasted and changing the damage from enter or starting in the turn to be a attack from the summoned monster but yea I definatly agree that reflavoring current powers to make the damage come from a summoned creature would be the perfect way to handle a summoner, exact same effects so balence is the same. Just refluffed to be from a summon rather then whatever source it originaly came from.
#13
urpriest
May 11, 2010 10:45:24 The "let's just make summons like any other spell but refluffed" method is exactly what 4e has already been doing. Encounter conjurations like astral wasp are exaclty that. While you could argue that most of these are underpowered, the flavor is there.

The problem with these things is that they don't give you the 3.5 summoner's feeling of reshaping the battlefield, versatility, or just the joy of having someone else doing stuff for you. However, this is 4e: reshaping the battlefield is supposed to be enormously costly, versatility is limited and largely irrelevant, and, as pointed out earlier in the thread, players aren't supposed to overshadow eachother, even when one is capable of rearranging reality and the other hits things with a sword. The "summoner feel" really doesn't work in 4e past what they've already done.
#14
stargazer_dragon
May 11, 2010 13:08:41 one of the things I did love about 4th editon was that the classes were balenced, The classes of old were anything but balenced, spell casters were balenced becouse at low lvl they would run outa spells and be useless while at high lvl they would walk all over the fighter. the feal of letting something else do you dirty work is still usable with dailies and sumons in 3.5 didn't last long eather unless you realy whent outa trhe way to make it so, if you want a summon that does the bulk of the fighting design a class that works much like the beast master

So to say the summoner would have a class feature to summon a base monster (always the same monster) and then half of it's powers would summon turn based creatures that mirrored other powers simply refluffed and half of it's powers could allow it's primary summon to do some damage so that the caster it'self never fights just runs away while it summons stuff and it's main summon does a lot of the fighting. the main summon would operate like the beast master.

for inspiration look to the beast master ranger and the shamans spirit companions. there you go a summoner that is balenced and has it's summons do the work. Now if you want something that summons monster to such a extent that it does the work of 2+ char then your SOL (less you throw balence out the door) as that was very much avoided in 4th edition something I like

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 lordnightshade May 08, 2010 9:52:21	Can anyone think of a good and balanced way to convert the 3.5 summon monster spells to 4th Edition? I really enjoyed them before, as did my players, and now the wizard feels handicapped by the new spells.
#2 pluisjen May 08, 2010 10:50:27	There's already a Summoner build in Arcane Power, you should probably have a look at that one.
#3 lordnightshade May 08, 2010 12:18:34	I hve seen the build but I still feel that the powers are not narly as expansive. With the old spells you could summon mltiple monsters from a list of available creatures. The new spells give you one mnster you are capable of summoning.
#4 pluisjen May 08, 2010 12:21:44	You could try to design some more summon spells and write a bunch of them in your spellbook? That lets you prepare the kind of summons you want each day. I don't think you'll be able to balance a Daily that is really 4 dailies all on its own because it summons 4 totally different kinds of monsters. (And if they're all almost the same, a bit of fluff can probably be enough; the stats for a Summoned Lion and a Summoned Tiger can be equal)
#5 stargazer_dragon May 10, 2010 2:01:49	it wouldn't take to much to alter a summon into a encounter power by changing some stats and durations and junk. This would allow even more possible summons.
#6 pluisjen May 10, 2010 4:06:11	Encounter powers generally last until the end of your next round, not the end of the encounter.. it'd be hard to model summons like that. Not to mention that the idea of "saps damage away from the Wizard" gets pretty powerful if the monster only lasts one turn anyway. What you could do is Multiclass as a Shaman, that gets you the Spirit companion which is an encounter based summon. Oh and Feats! Feats are good. Things like: Winged Summons Prerequisite: Wizard Effect: When you summon a creature by using a Wizard power, you may give that creature a fly speed of 6 (hover), but if you do so it takes a -1 penalty to attack rolls and defenses. It gives you the option to modify your summons, but it does have a bit of a drawback so you can't pile on a crapton of bonusses at no loss.
#7 Bandikoot May 10, 2010 14:20:44	I thought about it a while back as my group dislikes the 4E summon system. What I briefly toyed around with was replacing the wizard summon creatures with an actual creature from the MM of the power's level (standard of course, no solo or elites). It would then share all its actions with the wizard that had summoned it. This got around the big complaint of all the summoned creature's stats being based off of the wizard. The problem of couse is the way in which things scale in 4E. A few levels down the road, the summoned monster is worthless. You can help alleviate this by using the monster leveling rules in the DMG, but that means you have to remember to level your monsters every time your PC levels. Another idea I had was to make a ritual that the PCs used to summon monsters. These would scale close to the PCs level so you wouldn't have to worry about leveling your monsters. Outside of combat, the PC could just use a minor action to order their monster around, but in combat they would share actions. Once again the monster would use its own stats. It would stick around for awhile (based on an arcana check) or until the end of the next combat, whichever came first.
#8 stargazer_dragon May 10, 2010 14:22:09	encounter power summons are not realy unbalenceing they would be no stronger then a effect that stays untill your next round which there are many at wills and encounters that do that, make it so it attacks the target when summoned and gets a OA against any enimie that moves next to it. this is definatly not over powered as the fact of it being a summon simply means it can be attacked and disapated sooner, I would make it not use any surges or hp no matter if it is killed or not, think of it as a single round zone effect which again look at current powers there are many
#9 urpriest May 10, 2010 15:58:06	One interesting method would be to have the summoned monsters be characters. Balance the fights for more characters than your players, and the wizard spends the first turn summoning another PC. The new PC then acts normally, under the wizard's control. Use monstery races and class combinations to simulate extraplanar beings (favored souls make decent angels, minotaurs make fun devils, etc.). Frankly, this is the sort of thing I would have done as a 3.5 summoner via a cohort. It fits the flavor of fantasy summoners better, you can have an ongoing relationship with your summons, etc.
#10 pluisjen May 10, 2010 16:10:33	While an interesting urpriest, this is something you shouldn't just discuss with your DM but with the entire group as it means a lot of spotlight is going to be on the Wizard and his "summons", something 4e tried to avoid.
#11 salla May 10, 2010 16:46:12	Another option is simply reflavoring your other spells to look like momentary summons. Scorching Burst? Nope, I summoned a fire imp over there and he let loose an explosion before going back to the plane I called him from. Icy Terrain? Nah, a little ice drake popped up and breathed frost on the ground, making it slippery.
#12 stargazer_dragon May 11, 2010 1:47:24	thats exactly what I was tring to say earlier salla, I was refering to reflavoring powers that lasted and changing the damage from enter or starting in the turn to be a attack from the summoned monster but yea I definatly agree that reflavoring current powers to make the damage come from a summoned creature would be the perfect way to handle a summoner, exact same effects so balence is the same. Just refluffed to be from a summon rather then whatever source it originaly came from.
#13 urpriest May 11, 2010 10:45:24	The "let's just make summons like any other spell but refluffed" method is exactly what 4e has already been doing. Encounter conjurations like astral wasp are exaclty that. While you could argue that most of these are underpowered, the flavor is there. The problem with these things is that they don't give you the 3.5 summoner's feeling of reshaping the battlefield, versatility, or just the joy of having someone else doing stuff for you. However, this is 4e: reshaping the battlefield is supposed to be enormously costly, versatility is limited and largely irrelevant, and, as pointed out earlier in the thread, players aren't supposed to overshadow eachother, even when one is capable of rearranging reality and the other hits things with a sword. The "summoner feel" really doesn't work in 4e past what they've already done.
#14 stargazer_dragon May 11, 2010 13:08:41	one of the things I did love about 4th editon was that the classes were balenced, The classes of old were anything but balenced, spell casters were balenced becouse at low lvl they would run outa spells and be useless while at high lvl they would walk all over the fighter. the feal of letting something else do you dirty work is still usable with dailies and sumons in 3.5 didn't last long eather unless you realy whent outa trhe way to make it so, if you want a summon that does the bulk of the fighting design a class that works much like the beast master So to say the summoner would have a class feature to summon a base monster (always the same monster) and then half of it's powers would summon turn based creatures that mirrored other powers simply refluffed and half of it's powers could allow it's primary summon to do some damage so that the caster it'self never fights just runs away while it summons stuff and it's main summon does a lot of the fighting. the main summon would operate like the beast master. for inspiration look to the beast master ranger and the shamans spirit companions. there you go a summoner that is balenced and has it's summons do the work. Now if you want something that summons monster to such a extent that it does the work of 2+ char then your SOL (less you throw balence out the door) as that was very much avoided in 4th edition something I like