Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 herald108 Apr 26, 2009 23:30:09	I just homebrewed a trip attack for my campaign. It's actually very simple. An attempt to trip a target is a standard action attack. The attack is Dexterity vs. Reflex. If the trip attack is successful, the target must make a saving throw or fall prone. Like the 4e grab, this does not provoke opportunity attacks. And unlike 3x, the target cannot make a counter-trip (from a miss). If the target is one size larger or has more than two legs, I'd apply a +5 bonus to the target's Reflex defense.
#2 Nerpherder Apr 27, 2009 10:06:02	I think its good, but Id add Strength to the attack so its Dex or Str vs Reflex. You can hit someone hard enuf in the legs to knock him down, as well as skillfuly trip him up. -Nerp
#3 Rustmonster Apr 27, 2009 12:12:56	I think its good, but Id add Strength to the attack so its Dex or Str vs Reflex. You can hit someone hard enuf in the legs to knock him down, as well as skillfuly trip him up. If you add a STR vs option, then it should be STR vs FORT. WHen you try to make a takedown with brute force, the opponent's ability to stay up is based on how tough they are, not how agile.
#4 Nerpherder Apr 27, 2009 15:58:40	If you add a STR vs option, then it should be STR vs FORT. WHen you try to make a takedown with brute force, the opponent's ability to stay up is based on how tough they are, not how agile. Good call, so we got this Trip You try to knock an enemy off its feet, leaving prone on the ground. This tactic is useful for slowing enemies escape and forcing then into dangerous position. Trip: STANDARD ACTION ✦ Target: You can trip a target within melee reach of you that is smaller than you, the same size category as you, or one category larger than you. ✦ Strength or Dexterity Attack: Make a Strength attack vs. Fortitude defense or a Dexterity vs. Reflex defense. Do not add any modifiers for the weapon you use. Hit: The target falls prone in its current square. Miss: No effect.
#5 thegreatgalstaff Apr 28, 2009 14:31:40	Ok this looks good but I have a nagging question... Why would you do this? getting up does not provoke a OA anymore... you do no damage... and there is a At-will that does damage and knocks them prone and postions them for other party members with only one feat? there are tons of powers that knock prone opponents (sometimes on a mass scale) and they do not have penalties for larger or 4 legged creatures. with that said, I like your idea but this is my 2 cents. I would say for it to be even remotely competitive you should do your STR or Dex mod (which ever stat you used). you get no weapon bonus just a fixed stat damage. that would be more balanced since this (IMO) is very weak and needs a little power creep. you also forgot to state the range for this attack, if you can do it with a arrow or a bolt or throwing hammer its fine, considering it would take enemies 1+ rounds more for them to even get to you and attack.
#6 Nerpherder Apr 28, 2009 19:29:27	Why would you do this? getting up does not provoke a OA anymore... you do no damage... In a chase tripping your target can slow them down so that the party can catch up. and there is a At-will that does damage and knocks them prone and postions them for other party members with only one feat? there are tons of powers that knock prone opponents (sometimes on a mass scale) and they do not have penalties for larger or 4 legged creatures. There are powers that can push people and yet we have a Bull Rush option. I would say for it to be even remotely competitive you should do your STR or Dex mod (which ever stat you used). you get no weapon bonus just a fixed stat damage. that would be more balanced since this (IMO) is very weak and needs a little power creep. I can see this adding some use-ability to the option. you also forgot to state the range for this attack, if you can do it with a arrow or a bolt or throwing hammer its fine, considering it would take enemies 1+ rounds more for them to even get to you and attack. In the write up under target it sates: You can trip a target within melee reach of you that is smaller than you, the same size, or one size larger than you. So the the range as of that version is melee. Lets add your damage and make it range a well see how that works. Trip You try to knock an enemy off its feet, leaving prone on the ground. This tactic is useful for slowing enemies escape and forcing then into dangerous position. ✦ Range:Use your currently equiped weapon to determine the range for this attack. ✦ Target: [/b]You can trip a target that is smaller than you, the same size category as you, or one category larger than you. ✦ Strength or Dexterity Attack: Make a Strength attack vs. Fortitude defense or a Dexterity vs. Reflex defense. Do not add any modifiers for the weapon you use. Hit: The target falls prone in its current square, and takes damage equal to the stat modifier used for the attack. Miss: No effect.
#7 tylara67 Apr 29, 2009 9:31:49	Not sure how I feel about adding damage, but other than that it certainly looks fairly good. Using a pure stat means it will rarely hit after heroic tier, but that's really the only time you'd be likely to use it anyway (by paragon, characters tend to have sufficient ways to slow or knock prone a foe). It's low-power enough to not step on anybody's toes, but effective enough to see use in the situation it was designed for (as well as probably some other corner cases, like making it harder for a foe to get out of a zone; daze + prone = you just wasted your turn).
#8 thegreatgalstaff Apr 29, 2009 10:34:54	if you are worried about it never hitting after heroic you can always add a +4 (or a +2 if your more conservative) at level 11 and a +6 (or a +4) at epic, that should balance it out so it can still hit the NAD it attacks.... and sorry about my previous post I just did not see any point to having trip considering that bullrush has never been used in my games (and I run 4 games with roughly 23 people in total) and probably never will even though I set the players up for it, and I even stated that I would allow STR to damage with a bull rush.
#9 herald108 Apr 29, 2009 18:25:10	and sorry about my previous post I just did not see any point to having trip considering that bullrush has never been used in my games (and I run 4 games with roughly 23 people in total) and probably never will even though I set the players up for it, and I even stated that I would allow STR to damage with a bull rush. No worries. I've played all year with the RPGA and no one has ever attempted this. But that's probably because it's not in the RAW. The situation was this: Unarmed barfight. LG cleric. And the cleric's powers don't maneuver opponents.
#10 herald108 Apr 29, 2009 18:41:21	I've make a few edits. This is the version I'll use: Trip You try to cause an enemy to lose its footing and fall prone. Trip: STANDARD ACTION ✦ Target: You can trip a target adjacent to you that is one size smaller than you, the same size category as you, or one category larger than you. ✦ Attack: Make a Strength attack vs. Fortitude defense or a Dexterity Attack vs. Reflex defense. Hit: The target must make an immediate saving throw or fall prone in its current square. I give the target a saving throw because this attack will restrict the target on it's next turn (the target must take a move action to stand). That seems only fair. Bull Rush does not require a save, but the target doesn't loose any actions from that attack. The grab attack also gives the target a counter roll (on the escape).
#11 Shadowfax7 Apr 29, 2009 19:59:59	I have been considering a House Ruled Trip attack as well. I had made one up as follows . . . Attack using Strength vs. Strength or Dexterity which causes the target to immediately make a saving throw to avoid falling prone on a hit. Only weapons from the Spear group or Staff group can be used to trip. However, I like the idea of Str vs. Fort or Dex vs. Ref as the attack. The only thing that I prefer is limiting a Trip attack to spearlike or stafflike weapons.
#12 tylara67 Apr 29, 2009 20:02:53	You can trip someone without a reach weapon, it's just harder. Maybe allow weapons from certain groups (spear, staff, polearm, whip) to include their weapon proficiency bonuses?
#13 Nerpherder Apr 29, 2009 21:28:43	@herald108: I kind of like your version except, I like having a ranged option, see below. @Shadowfax7 and tylara67: By limiting the trip to a melee only, or giving it a bonus based on weapon type creates more rules text and starts lagging the game down, a la 3x. Thats why I like herald108 version sweet and simple. Also the reason I like to add a ranged version to the ablility is so you can effectively shoot an enemies leg out as he is running up or away. -Nerp
#14 herald108 Apr 30, 2009 1:23:18	...giving it a bonus based on weapon type creates more rules text and starts lagging the game down, a la 3x. +1 Also the reason I like to add a ranged version to the ablility is so you can effectively shoot an enemies leg out as he is running up or away. Reach, not ranged, right? But that is a good idea. There's a polearm technique for tripping opponents. I've seen it illustrated in a Palladium book of arms and armor. It's fairly complex. And I can't imagine that it would work at a distance beyond 5 feet. You could permit this with polearms, spears and staves, but now these weapons have a new functionality, where the others do not. And like the additional proficiency bonuses, this is a departure from simplicity. I think the reason that there's no trip attack in 4e it that the trip is implicit in the powers. For instance, check the rogue's 3rd level Topple Over power. I, for one, am going to keep it simple.
#15 Nerpherder Apr 30, 2009 9:38:06	Reach, not ranged, right? No I mean Ranged, as in a crossbow/bow or thrown weapon. You could permit this with polearms, spears and staves, but now these weapons have a new functionality, where the others do not. And like the additional proficiency bonuses, this is a departure from simplicity. If you let all weapons do it, and none get a bonus, it is simpley another combat manuver like Bull Rushing and Grab. I think the reason that there's no trip attack in 4e it that the trip is implicit in the powers. For instance, check the rogue's 3rd level Topple Over power. Again I refer to the fact that there are many powers that restrain and/or push enemies and yet we have Bull Rush and Grab. Everyone keeps saying Class C has power P that does X. Which is great but Im not class C, I have no power that does X and I want to X that guy. -Nerp
#16 bastard_dm May 01, 2009 5:10:51	Here's an idea- just add an alternative to bull rush: On a successful hit, instead of pushing the opponent you can force them to make a saving throw or be knocked prone. This would mimic the effects of trying to push someone off of a cliff (where they would be able to make such a save to catch themselves), and grant any character the ability to do a sort of "brute force" knockdown without any sort of formal training (i.e., powers that knock the target prone). Also, anything that granted bonuses to bull rushes (like charging, for example), would automatically aid in tripping opponents. I can't think of a simpler or easier way to add a basic trip attack to the game.
#17 nightwalker450 May 01, 2009 9:21:35	How about this...
#18 vaalingrade_ashland_02 May 01, 2009 9:47:03	You do realize that making Trip as a universal power is giving everyone a leader power. Prone targets grant combat advantage to anyone attacking them in melee, which is a damn sight better than the flat +2 for one ally to attack power.
#19 bastard_dm May 01, 2009 10:40:53	You do realize that making Trip as a universal power is giving everyone a leader power. Prone targets grant combat advantage to anyone attacking them in melee, which is a damn sight better than the flat +2 for one ally to attack power. If all the trip attack can do is knock the target prone, I find it hard to believe that it's a viable alternative to the other at-will options available to every character under most circumstances. That having been said, there's a reason I want to put the saving throw on there (as mentioned in my earlier post)- I wouldn't want to see an encounter where this gets abused. The goal here is to develop an at-will maneuver that any character could do when the situation calls for it without having to resort to page 42. However, considering how often I suspect it will come up (about as often as bull rush and grab do- i.e., once per campaign or less, in my experience), page 42 may simply be the best way to handle it... but that's not what this thread is about. I stand by my suggestion- modify bull rush to allow a knockdown instead of a push, but grant the subject a saving throw. This shouldn't be something that characters should be able to do easily and reliably, but having it be a standardized option (like the basic bull rush and grab) could help players to think tactically beyond "encounter encounter at-will at-will utility".