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4e: Free feats?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Cohen95
Feb 05, 2011 17:27:03
So, I hear a lot of talk about how there are certain feats that are just considered "feat tax" (or a math fix, or whatever), and that many games will include those feats for free, as they mainly serve to correct a design flaw in the game, rather than enhance play experience.

My question is, what feats are they talking about, and how universally excepted is it that these feats are (or should be) free?
#2
rampant
Feb 05, 2011 17:31:36 mostly the accuracy boosting feats

And I dunno about anyone else, but I don't think they're math fixes my characters got on just fine without them, and still do.
#3
Neutronium_Dragon
Feb 05, 2011 17:39:39 As of the Essentials content, "[Whatever] Expertise" (weapon and/or implement) and "Improved Defenses".

Going from level 1 to level 30 gives a PC a 25-point increase to attack bonus and strong defenses, and 22 to weak defenses. Monsters get a 29-point improvement to attacks and defenses in that same time. This scaling difference isn't all that noticeable at low level, but as you start to get into paragon tier its impact becomes more and more apparent.

While the Essentials Expertise feats now add a perk of some sort, the original forms of these feats simply granted a +1/+2/+3 bonus (scaling by tier) to attack rolls. Improved Defenses is a single tier-scaling feat that replaced previous tier-specific ones. These feats allow PCs to close the gap on the math: +28 to attacks and strong defenses and +25 to weak defenses.

Without those tier-scaling feat bonuses, PC attacks and defenses fall far behind monster ones, causing the game to drag and many abilities to stop working properly (since the synergy of many powers and abilities is lost when they miss so often). However, this means that the feats are effectively required to keep the game running properly. Essentially, PCs are being charged (at least) two feat slots (one for expertise and one for ImpDef) just to make the math work out.

The feats do have some gaps, too: Expertise feats don't help most racial powers, or the handful of attack powers that aren't weapon or implement based. While you can simply grant ImpDef and an Expertise feat as bonus feats, it works just as well to simply grant all PCs (without actually making feats out of it) a +1 feat bonus to attack rolls and to Fort/Ref/Will defense, increasing to +2 and +3 at paragon and epic. This won't stack with the actual feats so it won't throw anything out of whack, but it also ensures that someone isn't going to be hopelessly inaccurate if they pick up a different type of weapon or implement for some reason, and racial powers remain functional across all tiers, and someone might still pick up an Expertise feat for the weapon-type-related perk.
#4
tequila_sunrise
Feb 05, 2011 23:18:33 ^ What ND says. ^
#5
slobo777a
Feb 06, 2011 10:01:38 I'd go with rampant on this occasion, the math isn't nearly as broken as the simple analysis shows. Generally the PCs have lots more options for synergy on single characters, and with supporting each other as they progress in level. In addition, other feats that grant conditional but better bonuses, or tactical advantage can be effective, and usually more fun to play.

However, the accuracy feats are usually seen as plain better in many cases than the alternatives, which makes players feel like they have to take them, which in turn means there is no apparent choice - they don't really contribute to anything special about the character in the way that a feat system should. Being generally good at hitting with your weapon of choice doesn't make Fred the fighter feel or play different to Frederique the fighter.
#6
pluisjen
Feb 06, 2011 14:02:34 Yeah the main reason (regardless of whether you consider them a math-fix) is that it basically gives people the choice between "a +1 to hit when the moon aligns properly with the stars and your enemy is of the color purple" or "+3 to attack rolls, period"

There are very few, if any, feats that are better then Expertise at any level of play (but especially the higher ones), and they are so universally good that anyone will eventually pick them up, which isn't what Feats are supposed to be about.
#7
house88
Feb 07, 2011 5:02:45 I go back and forth on this one.
The reasons for giving free expertise or improved defenses are sound.
On the side of not giving them out for free: free feats make PCs more powerful, and a well made PC can already be pretty gross in power.
#8
pluisjen
Feb 07, 2011 5:13:43 If you don't give them out, you should at least consider banning them, because they're pretty much so powerful you'd be stupid not to take them. There's no real reason to not take it the instant you have a feat to spare from your concept other then "I enjoy being gimped", and even the choice between "flavorful" and "expertise" can often be a hard one.
#9
slobo777a
Feb 07, 2011 7:21:10 The newer versions of the accuracy feat that grant the expertise bonus PLUS some other benefit seem to be the way to go. Not quite as big a boost as giving the basic version for free, and adds just enough flavour back in so that you care which accuracy feat you took. But on the minus side you are even more stupid not to take them, and a little power creep has got in along with the fix.
#10
Timmeh
Feb 07, 2011 11:23:16 One of the bigger issues is that the harder you make the encounters to offset the free feats, the more difficult it is as a group to have a weak party role (such as leader, defender, etc.).
A couple feats that I have seen been given out other than expertise: Melee Training (Original Version) for some classes and Improved Defenses. I wouldn't be surprised if other people did things like giving Shamans hide proficency.
#11
tequila_sunrise
Feb 08, 2011 15:52:54
I wouldn't be surprised if other people did things like giving Shamans hide proficency.

I don't give proficiencies away for free, but I do give shamans Con to AC. Because everyone needs either heavy armor or a high stat to AC.
#12
iqwinn
Feb 09, 2011 20:59:54 hmmmm...maybe the next edition will have lesser feats (which you can take at odd-numbered levels) and greater feats (which you can take at even-numbered levels). Lesser feats would be things that don't necessarily affect your offensive or defensive powers, but would be like Linguist or the tiefling's Clever Tail. Greater feats would give actual bonuses to abilities, or proficiencies, or multiclass feats. There may also be an option to take 2 lesser feats in place of a greater feat, but I don't know how well that would go over.
#13
apzaboro
Feb 11, 2011 7:17:02 With regards to the math that apparently is the reason for justifying free feats- is it me, or does giving out as many magic items as the Dungeon Master's Guides suggest boost PCs attack and defense by about 6 from levels 1-30, almost perfectly balancing the monster scaling? Or has that already been accounted for? If not, the Guides specifically state that if you aren't giving out enough magic items, you need to give the players static buffs to stats like these.
#14
pluisjen
Feb 11, 2011 7:28:48 The magic items aren't enough, they are part of the calculations (+15 half level, +6 magic, +3 ability boosts, and something else which I can't remember...)

Anyway even with proper magic you're somewhat short at 30th level, although you'll have a lot of more powerful attacks and boosts from said items to make up for it somewhat.
#15
apzaboro
Feb 11, 2011 7:45:28 Ahh, ok, the numbers seemed off by a suspiciously familiar amount is all.

In any case, seems like someone wanting to eliminate necessary feats or giving them out so players don't have to take them could use the permanent boon-type effect out of the sidebar for low-magic worlds from one of the DMG. They effectively suggest implementing scaling, permanent bonuses to major combat stats to compensate for fewer magic items. I'm sure that using these could up PCs the needed 5 or so points in these stats gradually as the gap widens. Then the feats are a bonus to smart players, or can be removed altogether from your houseruled/homebrew game.
#16
goodygoodman
Feb 16, 2011 2:29:30 Monster AC starts at 15 (typically) and increases by +1 each level after that. Player weapon attacks start with an attack bonus between +5 and +8 (and can push as high as +9 for something like a fighter/rogue with a 20 stat and a +3 accuracy weapon). Since the new skill DC tables express a desired 65% chance to succeed on a check, these bonuses fall within a valid range.

A player's bonuses typically scale by +25 as they gain levels; +15 from level, +6 from enhancement, and +4 from stats. It is interesting to note that Masterwork Light armor provides a further +2 bonus; I have always been of the thought that the designers realized their mistake in the math and put in Masterwork armor to compensate, but either forgot to or ignored applying it to attacks and defenses. Savy players can squeeze a few more points to attack, such as a few PPs which grant +1 to attacks and a few EDs which grant +2 to stats.

Early on in the system, people claimed that there was no math problem, that the early game assumed players would have higher hit chances than they would at the later game. I contest that this was found faulty by enough players, and likely by the designers, that they added in the expertise feats.

I also find it particularly currious to note that if stats increased at twice the rate, by +2 at each stage, we wouldn't be in this predicament; attack, AC (as long as heavy armor was addressed), and high saves would scale at +29, only the low save would be especially behind as it would only scale at a rate of +23.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Cohen95 Feb 05, 2011 17:27:03	So, I hear a lot of talk about how there are certain feats that are just considered "feat tax" (or a math fix, or whatever), and that many games will include those feats for free, as they mainly serve to correct a design flaw in the game, rather than enhance play experience. My question is, what feats are they talking about, and how universally excepted is it that these feats are (or should be) free?
#2 rampant Feb 05, 2011 17:31:36	mostly the accuracy boosting feats And I dunno about anyone else, but I don't think they're math fixes my characters got on just fine without them, and still do.
#3 Neutronium_Dragon Feb 05, 2011 17:39:39	As of the Essentials content, "[Whatever] Expertise" (weapon and/or implement) and "Improved Defenses". Going from level 1 to level 30 gives a PC a 25-point increase to attack bonus and strong defenses, and 22 to weak defenses. Monsters get a 29-point improvement to attacks and defenses in that same time. This scaling difference isn't all that noticeable at low level, but as you start to get into paragon tier its impact becomes more and more apparent. While the Essentials Expertise feats now add a perk of some sort, the original forms of these feats simply granted a +1/+2/+3 bonus (scaling by tier) to attack rolls. Improved Defenses is a single tier-scaling feat that replaced previous tier-specific ones. These feats allow PCs to close the gap on the math: +28 to attacks and strong defenses and +25 to weak defenses. Without those tier-scaling feat bonuses, PC attacks and defenses fall far behind monster ones, causing the game to drag and many abilities to stop working properly (since the synergy of many powers and abilities is lost when they miss so often). However, this means that the feats are effectively required to keep the game running properly. Essentially, PCs are being charged (at least) two feat slots (one for expertise and one for ImpDef) just to make the math work out. The feats do have some gaps, too: Expertise feats don't help most racial powers, or the handful of attack powers that aren't weapon or implement based. While you can simply grant ImpDef and an Expertise feat as bonus feats, it works just as well to simply grant all PCs (without actually making feats out of it) a +1 feat bonus to attack rolls and to Fort/Ref/Will defense, increasing to +2 and +3 at paragon and epic. This won't stack with the actual feats so it won't throw anything out of whack, but it also ensures that someone isn't going to be hopelessly inaccurate if they pick up a different type of weapon or implement for some reason, and racial powers remain functional across all tiers, and someone might still pick up an Expertise feat for the weapon-type-related perk.
#4 tequila_sunrise Feb 05, 2011 23:18:33	^ What ND says. ^
#5 slobo777a Feb 06, 2011 10:01:38	I'd go with rampant on this occasion, the math isn't nearly as broken as the simple analysis shows. Generally the PCs have lots more options for synergy on single characters, and with supporting each other as they progress in level. In addition, other feats that grant conditional but better bonuses, or tactical advantage can be effective, and usually more fun to play. However, the accuracy feats are usually seen as plain better in many cases than the alternatives, which makes players feel like they have to take them, which in turn means there is no apparent choice - they don't really contribute to anything special about the character in the way that a feat system should. Being generally good at hitting with your weapon of choice doesn't make Fred the fighter feel or play different to Frederique the fighter.
#6 pluisjen Feb 06, 2011 14:02:34	Yeah the main reason (regardless of whether you consider them a math-fix) is that it basically gives people the choice between "a +1 to hit when the moon aligns properly with the stars and your enemy is of the color purple" or "+3 to attack rolls, period" There are very few, if any, feats that are better then Expertise at any level of play (but especially the higher ones), and they are so universally good that anyone will eventually pick them up, which isn't what Feats are supposed to be about.
#7 house88 Feb 07, 2011 5:02:45	I go back and forth on this one. The reasons for giving free expertise or improved defenses are sound. On the side of not giving them out for free: free feats make PCs more powerful, and a well made PC can already be pretty gross in power.
#8 pluisjen Feb 07, 2011 5:13:43	If you don't give them out, you should at least consider banning them, because they're pretty much so powerful you'd be stupid not to take them. There's no real reason to not take it the instant you have a feat to spare from your concept other then "I enjoy being gimped", and even the choice between "flavorful" and "expertise" can often be a hard one.
#9 slobo777a Feb 07, 2011 7:21:10	The newer versions of the accuracy feat that grant the expertise bonus PLUS some other benefit seem to be the way to go. Not quite as big a boost as giving the basic version for free, and adds just enough flavour back in so that you care which accuracy feat you took. But on the minus side you are even more stupid not to take them, and a little power creep has got in along with the fix.
#10 Timmeh Feb 07, 2011 11:23:16	One of the bigger issues is that the harder you make the encounters to offset the free feats, the more difficult it is as a group to have a weak party role (such as leader, defender, etc.). A couple feats that I have seen been given out other than expertise: Melee Training (Original Version) for some classes and Improved Defenses. I wouldn't be surprised if other people did things like giving Shamans hide proficency.
#11 tequila_sunrise Feb 08, 2011 15:52:54	I wouldn't be surprised if other people did things like giving Shamans hide proficency. I don't give proficiencies away for free, but I do give shamans Con to AC. Because everyone needs either heavy armor or a high stat to AC.
#12 iqwinn Feb 09, 2011 20:59:54	hmmmm...maybe the next edition will have lesser feats (which you can take at odd-numbered levels) and greater feats (which you can take at even-numbered levels). Lesser feats would be things that don't necessarily affect your offensive or defensive powers, but would be like Linguist or the tiefling's Clever Tail. Greater feats would give actual bonuses to abilities, or proficiencies, or multiclass feats. There may also be an option to take 2 lesser feats in place of a greater feat, but I don't know how well that would go over.
#13 apzaboro Feb 11, 2011 7:17:02	With regards to the math that apparently is the reason for justifying free feats- is it me, or does giving out as many magic items as the Dungeon Master's Guides suggest boost PCs attack and defense by about 6 from levels 1-30, almost perfectly balancing the monster scaling? Or has that already been accounted for? If not, the Guides specifically state that if you aren't giving out enough magic items, you need to give the players static buffs to stats like these.
#14 pluisjen Feb 11, 2011 7:28:48	The magic items aren't enough, they are part of the calculations (+15 half level, +6 magic, +3 ability boosts, and something else which I can't remember...) Anyway even with proper magic you're somewhat short at 30th level, although you'll have a lot of more powerful attacks and boosts from said items to make up for it somewhat.
#15 apzaboro Feb 11, 2011 7:45:28	Ahh, ok, the numbers seemed off by a suspiciously familiar amount is all. In any case, seems like someone wanting to eliminate necessary feats or giving them out so players don't have to take them could use the permanent boon-type effect out of the sidebar for low-magic worlds from one of the DMG. They effectively suggest implementing scaling, permanent bonuses to major combat stats to compensate for fewer magic items. I'm sure that using these could up PCs the needed 5 or so points in these stats gradually as the gap widens. Then the feats are a bonus to smart players, or can be removed altogether from your houseruled/homebrew game.
#16 goodygoodman Feb 16, 2011 2:29:30	Monster AC starts at 15 (typically) and increases by +1 each level after that. Player weapon attacks start with an attack bonus between +5 and +8 (and can push as high as +9 for something like a fighter/rogue with a 20 stat and a +3 accuracy weapon). Since the new skill DC tables express a desired 65% chance to succeed on a check, these bonuses fall within a valid range. A player's bonuses typically scale by +25 as they gain levels; +15 from level, +6 from enhancement, and +4 from stats. It is interesting to note that Masterwork Light armor provides a further +2 bonus; I have always been of the thought that the designers realized their mistake in the math and put in Masterwork armor to compensate, but either forgot to or ignored applying it to attacks and defenses. Savy players can squeeze a few more points to attack, such as a few PPs which grant +1 to attacks and a few EDs which grant +2 to stats. Early on in the system, people claimed that there was no math problem, that the early game assumed players would have higher hit chances than they would at the later game. I contest that this was found faulty by enough players, and likely by the designers, that they added in the expertise feats. I also find it particularly currious to note that if stats increased at twice the rate, by +2 at each stage, we wouldn't be in this predicament; attack, AC (as long as heavy armor was addressed), and high saves would scale at +29, only the low save would be especially behind as it would only scale at a rate of +23.