) this idea I'm trying to flesh out is more like the idea for the 3.5 scouts ability "sudden strike" but less about what i does and more about how it works. the idea behind it was that the scout was constantly moving around the battle field which threw there target off balance in a way allowing them to stike harder, because it created a better opening for attack, catching them off guard a bit.so basically the idea will follow the rule system of a charge but instead work for range weapons, possibly also the option will only be available for use in conjunction with the rangers ability "hunter's quarry "
- You can move and make an attack with a single standard action
- You get a +1 to hit
Those same benefits are justifiable based on your concept:
- You are accustomed to shooting on the run
- You know how to use positioning to maximize your chance of hitting
You might consider breaking those two benefits up. For the "move and attack with a standard action" benefit, compare to the Nimble Strike level 1 ranger exploit, which allows you to shift 1 square before or after your attack. Since a move action can be used to either shift 1 square or move a number of squares up to to your movement, it seems balanced, at first glance, to trade out the one for the other to come up with a new at-will power.
THE SWORDBOW (Item Level 12)
Special: This item can either be used as a shortword or a longbow. Apply normal damage and modifiers.
AWESOME SUPER CHARGE THING
Power: Daily-Standard
You may make a standard attack with the longbow and then charge at your enemy. You may then make a standard attack with the shortsword.
I say drop the free feat and call "sudden strike" your class feature instead.
Though, charge has the limitation that you must move directly to the target. That isn't something that fits in with ranged combat, so I propose this:
Sudden Strike * Ranger Class Feature
You dash quickly into a prime position to strike your enemy.
At-Will * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action * Ranged weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.
Special: Move a number of squares up to your movement score before you attack. None of your allies may be nearer to your target than you at the end of your move. Increase damage to 2[W] + Dexterity modifier at 21st level.
So, essentially, it is treated as a charge in which instead of being required to charge directly to the target, you must move such that you are using your Prime Shot ability, which would in turn give you a +1 to attack, similar to a charge.
Sudden Strike * Ranger Class Feature
You dash quickly into a prime position to strike your enemy.
At-Will * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action * Ranged weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.
Special: Move a number of squares up to your movement score before you attack. None of your allies may be nearer to your target than you at the end of your move. Increase damage to 2[W] + Dexterity modifier at 21st level.
So, essentially, it is treated as a charge in which instead of being required to charge directly to the target, you must move such that you are using your Prime Shot ability, which would in turn give you a +1 to attack, similar to a charge.
Wow, some good input on this, thanks guys, i like most the idea's, but the last one seems to work out the best and seems to utilizes some of the previous post, but a question and suggestion about it. would it be added to your at-will selection at character creation or would it be a bonus at will? also the "None of your allies may be nearer to your target than you at the end of your move" bugs me a bit, i understand its base off primeshot, just it would get one kill pretty quickly. being rangers ac/hp are on the lower end, and this ability would get you really in the thick of things. perhaps making the target of this at will be your "hunters quarry" kind of doing the same effect (the effect being in my eyes some sort of restriction so its not to uber). being that to name a quarry, it must be your closest enemy at the time of naming.
well also just thinking, you might have created the rule so it wouldn't abuse the movement w/ the range, because one would move so much faster then there target. so perhaps it should go something like this "the target of the sudden strike must be the rangers quarry,and the ranger must end his turn 1 or more squares closer to the quarry then when the turn started"
what do you guys think?
decided to go archer ranger for a change of pace for me, but i miss the 3.5 scout speed among other things.
Just a suggestion for the speed . . . Elven archer ranger.
Just a suggestion for the speed . . . Elven archer ranger.
yeah that gets you 7 instead of 6 which is nice, also theres magical items that help as well. not to mention the fact that as an archer, one can be so far away from the battle the they could use with out to much of a danger, the move action "run" and get the +2 squares out of it (and getting the nasty -5 to attack). that with the feat "fast runner", would be sick. sadly i could not go elf with the character i wish to use this homebrew ability with. he's and updated 3.5 changeling scout i had, that seems to translate into a 4.0 doppelganger ranger now lol
also i did a modified build of the at will
by the way areutter, i like your flavor text and name of the ability, though not sure which to go with now
Cool. Personally, I would avoid the name Sudden Strike because it's so different from the 3.5e Sudden Strike mechanically.
As far as mechanics, I think you've hit on a good answer. You seem to agree that there has to be a limitation on a "move and ranged attack" at-will, but the limitation you chose ties in better with the ranger class features than my "Wis modifier" suggestion did.
Ignoring that for the moment, my thought process behind using Prime Shot as the limiter was actually to force a sort of close proximity. A person who uses charge is forced to engage in melee. Unless you have a reach weapon, you are commiting yourself to staying with that opponent, unless one of you spends the effort of shifting or taking AoO in escaping.
I was also thinking of Hunter's Quarry in that you might actually not be able to take advantage of it. The move and attack are part of the same action, so the target would have to still be the closest before the move.
The hope was to be as limiting and situational as possible in exchanging it for a full free move action, which is kind of a big deal. Ultimately, it would allow roughly the same freedom as a person with a reach weapon. One could move, then charge in closer to make the shot, or he could charge into Prime Shot position (assuming the target wasn't in melee with an ally already), take the shot, then use your still available move action to retreat, allowing for some kiting.
It looks like the 3.5 Scout's ability was called Skirmish. I just looked it up, and thought I'd throw that out there.
I like the idea of using Hunter's Quarry in concept. It's the ranger's primary ability, and it makes sense to grant him his advantages over the target of it. I don't know that the 1 square closer movement really effects the situation at all, since the player is just going to have a move action still available to retreat. If he already used it to approach the enemy, he's probably using his Sudden Strike to get even closer anyways. Assuming he's behind cover, he can come out, take a step forward, fire, then move back to his safe spot. That's well and fine, but I guess the point I'm getting at is having to sorta-kinda approach his enemy doesn't keep him from doing anything he'd try to do if he didn't have to.
Edit: Okay, I missed the bit about having to end the turn, not the action, closer than you started. It feels a bit odd, but I can see why it's done that way. I guess it feels wierd because it limits future actions or action points in that round after the fact, like I could move, fire, then move again for cover, but only if it was closer than my starting point two moves ago. But now I'm just nit picking.
Now, rolling back to the initial bit. I look at the Rogue's Deft Strike and I grit my teeth slightly. It's inferior to charge, except for you get to use ranged weapons and Dex. The exchange? 2 squares of movement and no +1 to attack. If that's the exchange for not being a burly guy with an axe, it's a heavy one that we're not quite matching in our trade-offs. Take that just for face value at the moment, as I haven't quite worked out what I think about it yet.
I've been mulling on it, and part of me sits a little uneasy. Mostly because of the Rogue's Deft Strike, which is very similar and only limited to 2 squares of movement.
Ignoring that for the moment, my thought process behind using Prime Shot as the limiter was actually to force a sort of close proximity. A person who uses charge is forced to engage in melee. Unless you have a reach weapon, you are commiting yourself to staying with that opponent, unless one of you spends the effort of shifting or taking AoO in escaping.
I was also thinking of Hunter's Quarry in that you might actually not be able to take advantage of it. The move and attack are part of the same action, so the target would have to still be the closest before the move.
The hope was to be as limiting and situational as possible in exchanging it for a full free move action, which is kind of a big deal. Ultimately, it would allow roughly the same freedom as a person with a reach weapon. One could move, then charge in closer to make the shot, or he could charge into Prime Shot position (assuming the target wasn't in melee with an ally already), take the shot, then use your still available move action to retreat, allowing for some kiting.
It looks like the 3.5 Scout's ability was called Skirmish. I just looked it up, and thought I'd throw that out there.
I like the idea of using Hunter's Quarry in concept. It's the ranger's primary ability, and it makes sense to grant him his advantages over the target of it. I don't know that the 1 square closer movement really effects the situation at all, since the player is just going to have a move action still available to retreat. If he already used it to approach the enemy, he's probably using his Sudden Strike to get even closer anyways. Assuming he's behind cover, he can come out, take a step forward, fire, then move back to his safe spot. That's well and fine, but I guess the point I'm getting at is having to sorta-kinda approach his enemy doesn't keep him from doing anything he'd try to do if he didn't have to.
Edit: Okay, I missed the bit about having to end the turn, not the action, closer than you started. It feels a bit odd, but I can see why it's done that way. I guess it feels wierd because it limits future actions or action points in that round after the fact, like I could move, fire, then move again for cover, but only if it was closer than my starting point two moves ago. But now I'm just nit picking.
Now, rolling back to the initial bit. I look at the Rogue's Deft Strike and I grit my teeth slightly. It's inferior to charge, except for you get to use ranged weapons and Dex. The exchange? 2 squares of movement and no +1 to attack. If that's the exchange for not being a burly guy with an axe, it's a heavy one that we're not quite matching in our trade-offs. Take that just for face value at the moment, as I haven't quite worked out what I think about it yet.
skirmish *facepalm* i knew that lol, my bad.
ok so i agee with you on the having to end the turn does feel odd, but its kill the abusiveness of it. being that one could in theory infinitely attack & stay out of the range of there target without allowing the target a rebuttal. also i'm sure i could be phase a bit clearer too, overall i want keep the ability as simple to understand as i can.
idk the +1 isn't that big of deal to me as much as the movement, but it just seems wrong to me that a melee type can charge and a ranged can't do some sort of run by shot with similar benefits
Looking at that, a ranged character doesn't really need that extra ability, since it's mainly to give the meleers some sort of equivalent. But, if the ranged character were to get something similar, you'd have to make sure you weren't breaking their benefit.
In the case of number one, you're covered. In a surprise round, you only get one action. Since you can only use this ability on the target of your Quarry, and assigning a Quarry is a minor action, you wouldn't be able to both assign it and attack it during that round.
For number two, you've made it so the ability can't be used to increase distance on your target. If two enemies are far away from each other, you might be able to escape one by approaching the other, but that's highly situational. In essence, you're granting yourself a double move and basic ranged attack (or move, attack, move) within a radius decided by how much ground you were already able to place between you and your target.
The worst situation I can picture is if an enemy has you locked in melee and you have another 4 squares away, you could shift as your move, Quarry the further enemy, and make a move off to 3 squares away from it and even further from your original attacker. But that's hardly worth mentioning, considering you can do the same thing and better with Nimble Strike, not having to approach anyone.
All in all, sure, I think it fits the concept of Skirmishing. You're mainly going to be using it to skirt around an opponent quickly, not really to close any distance, since that's not what you typically want. Though, I can see using it to move in out of -2 penalty range, make a shot, then pull back. And, it doesn't provide much in the way of improving distance. It's as if you're running circles around him.
It's as if you're running circles around him.
that's pretty much what i want to do :D
so should this ability still give a +1 to attack or would that be asking for to much out of an at-will?
cause thinking of things i could do with the ability, i could swoop in with prime shot and get a +2 which is not that bad to me but i'm interested in another point of view