Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Qube Jul 16, 2009 2:36:53	Introduction This is a game variant on 4e for groups of players that like to play with templates. Possibly it could also be used for a single player to get a template, while the other don't. So what does it? it allows players to play with elf liches, half fiend eladrin, ... Idea The idea starts with the fact that a race is only a set of modifiers balanced toward each other (each race is as powerfull as the next) Since there a race is only a set of modifiers, there is no reason why one could not take 2 races (one as actual race, and the other as template). And since these sets of modifiers are balanced toward each other, they all should be about equally powerfull. Off course some combinations will be better then others, but that's the same with race+class (a dwarf cleric vs a tiefling cleric) General specifics On level 1-18, Templates count as a level adjustment +2. On level 20-30, Templates count as a level adjustment +1. This means XP: a lvl 11 eladrin lich counts as a lvl 13 character for calculating his XP: when a normal character would have enough XP to go from level 13 to 14, the level 11 eladrin lich goes from level 11 to 12) items: a lvl 11 eladrin lich gets items as though he was a lvl 13 character class levels: a level 11 eladrin lich wizard gets only +5 to attacks (half his level), has hp as a lvl 11 wizard, and counts as an lvl 11 for calculating what powers / paragon class features / feats / ... he has when a lvl 18 elf lich has enough XP to level up (a.k.a. when other PCs become epic (lvl 21)), he goes to lvl 20 instead of lvl 19 All the templates proposed here, are based on races created by WotC, with 1 modification: the +2 to 2 skills. these put the most specific fluff in a race, and can be easely changed without breaking balance specific templates
#2 slobo777a Jul 16, 2009 3:26:00	Pretty good, a reasonable compromise, I think. The players can purchase some extra powers and stats at the expense of an across-the-board -1 to most ability rolls. It does bring Level Adjustments into 4e though :-( And a sliding scheme too . . . what happens when the party cross over from heroic tier to paragon? Is there mileage in purchasing these templates in a similar way to the multi-class feats? So in effect you "multi-race" as opposed to multi-class?
#3 Qube Jul 16, 2009 3:55:31	. . . what happens when the party cross over from heroic tier to paragon? for the level adjussted PC, sadly nothing. at epic tier, I gave templates a power boost, as from that moment on their racial ability isn't much more powerfull then compared to other powers/items (items like boots of teleportation, powers for minor action healing, ...) edit: I'll change the slide so it comes you on the same level the other PCs gain their epic power boost Is there mileage in purchasing these templates in a similar way to the multi-class feats? I'dd limit it to 1 template. Technically there is no problem with taking mutliple templates (as I said, its just a collection of modifiers). But I suspect that they'll become weaker then other characters: a template brings versitility (ex. dragons breath, fire resistance, ...) too much versitility begins to drain power (taking all templates with the same stat modifiers only makes you break even for them) So in effect you "multi-race" as opposed to multi-class? in effect yes, in flavor no.
#4 knishiuchi Jul 16, 2009 4:44:58	I think it would be easier to keep templates to feats like dhampyr and the weapon multiclass feats. Those and paragon paths already offer a lot of room. Interesting idea though.
#5 Qube Jul 16, 2009 6:07:15	I think it would be easier to keep templates to feats like dhampyr and the weapon multiclass feats. Those and paragon paths already offer a lot of room. Interesting idea though. the problem with feats however, is that they are not powerfull enough, so you need to take multiple feats (just like multiclassing). However, templates are things you are born into, so unless you go with mechanisms such as awakening (graduately gaining the bonusses), you can't substitute them with feats. Also, forcing everything into feats/paragon paths reduces the options of a player (putting lich in a paragonpath, makes you unable to go for lich bloodmage. putting lich in multiple feats, makes it unable to create a lich wizard/cleric (paragon MC) ...) As last point; the way I set up templates makes it very easy to create new (probably ballanced) templates, as on just needs to search the abilities of existing PC races.
#6 magus_stragus Jul 16, 2009 9:03:52	Instead of templates, I think you should go with hybrid races, much like hybrid classes (from Dragon Magazine).
#7 valcien Jul 16, 2009 14:35:34	I immediately began wondering, when I picked up 4e, why other races can't be teiflings, just humans. Devils aren't interested in any other race? Huh? So I played a Teifling Halfling. Teifling needs to be a template I says.
#8 vebrandsson Jul 16, 2009 15:30:39	Instead of templates, I think you should go with hybrid races, much like hybrid classes (from Dragon Magazine). I second this as a better idea. I mean level adjustments in 4e just don't work, or well they work but they aren't worth it at all in my opinion. I mean even just a +1 level adjustment would deny you your level 30 epic destiny feature which is something I'd not give up, a +2 level adjustment and you also loose your level 29 daily power, even less worth it. But even still no template power, nor the minor stat boosts you'd get would equal just the lv 30 epic destiny feature.
#9 megamatoran Jul 16, 2009 22:21:43	Instead of templates, I think you should go with hybrid races, much like hybrid classes (from Dragon Magazine). 3rd. I agree with Vebrandsson, the cost of this would overwhelm the gains. Also, templates could work like the vampire bloodline feats, although they are mostly flavor, and becoming a vampire is much more minor than being half something.
#10 Qube Jul 17, 2009 8:54:53	hybrid races It was never my intent to create something like hybrid races: they seem to 'normal' to me. between the countless of normal PC races you have, you woudn't stand out as something special: A hybrid elf/dwarf for example, taking the +2dex +2 wis of an elf and the abilities of a dwarf .... then you're just a dexerious races with good health capabilities ... if you wanted that you could have just played shifter or something ... A hybrid race (think half orc or half elf) creates a water down version of both, a mongrol. A template however empowers a character. A eladrin lich is still an eladrin, but his necromantic body gives him new powers. A half fiend human is a direct descendant of a demon (the child of a succubus for example), opposed to the weakened tiefling blood. A half dragon is a direct descendant of a dragon, while dragonborn are only hint toward their grand ancestry I mean even just a +1 level adjustment would deny you your level 30 epic destiny feature which is something I'd not give up, Ah, but that's a flaw in reasoning: "you won't get the lvl 30 ability because the game only goes to lvl 30, right?" However with these template rules, the game in fact goes to lvl 31 (assuming that everyone takes a template (either at character creation, during the campaign, or when going past lvl 30))
#11 vebrandsson Jul 18, 2009 0:15:13	Ah, but that's a flaw in reasoning: "you won't get the lvl 30 ability because the game only goes to lvl 30, right?" However with these template rules, the game in fact goes to lvl 31 (assuming that everyone takes a template (either at character creation, during the campaign, or when going past lvl 30)) Good thought until you have to decide an arbitrary amount of experience to equate level 31 and of course convincing everyone to take a template. Clearly not an option for everyone. I would think a better way to handle templates would be as a paragon path or some kind of bloodline feat type system (if it were me I'd make it count as a multiclass)
#12 Qube Jul 18, 2009 0:47:40	Good thought until you have to decide an arbitrary amount of experience to equate level 31 since there hare monsters with level higher then 30 (tiamat IIRC), its not really arbitrary Clearly not an option for everyone. why? paragon path is an option for everyone, so is an epic path. Why would a template not be a option? [list][*]because of the mechanism, a huge amount of templates are possible.(taking the player races from PHB, MM and PHB2) [*]even if you don't have any idea about your character, you can become a paragon of your race (the best of his kind) I would think a better way to handle templates would be as a paragon path or some kind of bloodline feat type system I already explained in a post why I don't like that. Paragon paths come to late in the game (some templates are things you're born with), and it limits your options (no lich bloodmage). Feats are simply too weak (or you'll need to take multiple feats, again limiting your options - no paragon mutliclassing for example). Feats are also prone to powerplay (MC feats are more powerfull then other feats; 'template feats' would also have the same problem)
#13 valcien Jul 19, 2009 21:08:25	What ever happened to race levels? I want my 4e race levels, that was a really good idea! I suppose you could go this route: Every player takes a template. Player A goes Eladrin Lich Player B goes Human Werewolf Player C wants a dwarf, and doesn't see any templates that fit with his character idea, so he takes Dwarf. So Player C doubles up on dwarf. Templates don't need adjustment level, they're just free.
#14 Qube Jul 20, 2009 1:14:59	Templates don't need adjustment level, they're just free. if all players take them, indeed - for a players point of view - there is no level adjustment. a DM however will possibly want harder enconuters ...