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| #1thegreatgalstaffNov 07, 2008 10:16:35 | Before I get into the feats I would like to say that these feats work only with powers that have the Keyword "IMPLEMENT". so a Cleric, Wizard, Warlock, or even a Swordmage*. I want to say this, I included the Description of Meta-Magic feats so that it explains that you must use these with a power that has the "Implement" keyword. I also added that you cannot have more than one Meta-Magic feat on a spell at a time I have tested this alot with my gaming groups and I have addressed alot of the issues, but I think its time to throw these to the wolves of the forums and see you tear them apart. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Meta-Magic feats these feat allow for you to modify powers from a supernatural source (must have the implement keyword). you must be wielding your implement in order to cast a meta-magic spell/prayer, clerics simply have to wear their holy symbol. you may never add more than one meta-magic feat to a spell/prayer, for example, you cannot have a energy substituted quickened Fireball. These feats are favorites of wizards who want to get the most out of their spell books. ----------------- Energy Substitution (Heroic) This feat allows you to substitute one element of a spell and replace it with another. Prerequisite(s): Int 13+, Wis 13+, trained in religion or arcana Benefit: when casting a spell or prayer you may take a -2 to the attack roll and change the elemental keyword to fire, cold, thunder, acid, or poison. Special: when you take this feat you must pick one of these keywords fire, cold, thunder, acid, or poison, this is the keyword you can chose when using Energy Substitution. Special: this feat can be taken multiple times, you must pick a different keyword each time. Special: a wizard my prepare his spell in advance with this feat modifying it and does not take the -2 penalty to attack rolls ----------------- Fast Spell (Heroic) with utter recklessness you try to pull off a spell so fast that your opponents cannot react. Prerequisite(s): Int 13+, Wis 13+, trained in religion or arcana Benefit: when casting a spell you may take a -2 to the attack roll, if you do ranged spells do not provoke Attacks of opportunity. Special: a wizard my prepare his spell in advance with this feat modifying it and does not take the -2 penalty to attack rolls ----------------- Distance Spell (Heroic) you focus on your target even if you barely can see him, and use invisible conduits of energy to accelerate you spells to hit distance targets Prerequisite(s): Int 13+, Wis 13+, trained in religion or arcana Benefit: when casting a spell you may take a -2 to the attack roll, if you do spells with a range gain a additional 5 squares to it. Special: a wizard my prepare his spell in advance with this feat modifying it and does not take the -2 penalty to attack rolls ----------------- Enlarge spell (paragon) you know how to make "Blast" and "Burst" spells larger and more fierce. at the cost of accuracy Prerequisite(s): Int 15+, Wis 13+, trained in religion or arcana Benefit: when casting a spell you may take a -4 to the attack roll, if you do spells with burst (close or ranged) are increased by 2, spells with a Blast descriptor are increased by 2. Special: a wizard my prepare his spell in advance with this feat modifying it and does not take the -4 penalty to attack rolls ----------------- Quicken spell (Paragon) Using extra power and Strength you use your own essence to cast a spell with but a thought. Prerequisite(s): Int 15+ Wis 13+, trained in religion or arcana, Fast spell. Benefit: by taking a -4 the attack rolls and spending a "Healing Surge" you may cast a spell as a Minor Action. Special: you may only cast one quickened spell every turn, or until you have no healing surges. Special: a wizard my prepare his spell in advance with this feat modifying it and does not take the -4 penalty to attack rolls, they still have to spend a healing surge. ----------------- Reserved spell (Paragon) you know that sometimes you need to be careful and not use all your strength at once, playing it safe may give you the advantage in the long run. Prerequisite(s): Int 13+ Wis 13+, trained in religion or arcana, one other meta-magic feat. Benefit: by taking a -4 the attack rolls you add the Reliable descriptor to your daily spell; it loses any damage or ability it would have on a miss. Special: a wizard my prepare his spell in advance with this feat modifying it and does not take the -4 penalty to attack rolls. Special: this may only be done to daily spells ----------------- Empowered Spell (Epic) your talent/faith has given you the ability to make even your weakest spells into powerful ones. Prerequisite(s): Int 17+ Wis 15+, trained in religion or arcana, and 1 other Meta-Magic feat. Benefit: by taking a -6 the attack rolls you may increase the Die size by one size category and gain a additional damage bonus equal to your implements enhancement bonus. Special: a wizard my prepare his spell in advance with this feat modifying it and still takes a -4 to attack rolls. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I do have more but I wanted to get your opinions on these. I was thinking of making Reserved spell a heroic feat. And before you say it I will, I like wizards, and I gave them a bonus to use meta-Magic feats because they have to prepare and don't have to modify there spells on the fly, making it easier for them to use. That was my opinion. OK I would love to hear your opinions about my feats |
| #2alumanNov 07, 2008 12:08:03 | Energy Substitution (Heroic) I think this is probably ok, even without a penalty to attack rolls if changed thusly: During an extended rest choose.... Fast Spell (Heroic) This is a bad feat, as few if any wizards will not take it. Distance Spell (Heroic) This one again...its badly over powered. Enlarge spell (paragon) So my Legion's hold goes from close burst 20 to close burst 22? Or how about prismatic whatevers going from 5 to 7? This is over powerful, and again a non choice. Quicken spell (Paragon) Same with the last three. Its overpowerful and a nonchoice. Reserved spell (Paragon) Reliable is worded (i believe) so that if it Misses ANY creature in the area its retained. This means, that wizards never lose ANY daily with this feat. Empowered Spell (Epic) Again...well, to sound like a broken record non-choice for wizard. Nonchoices are bad. I do have more but I wanted to get your opinions on these. Kay, Clerics pray the a day ahead of time, and shouldn't have to modify their spells on the fly either. -4 is not = to a die size. Weapons state -1 is. Therei s no reason for a wizard not to take all of them and use them all at once. That way each spell has +5 range +2 size et cetra. Even if you limit to 1 per spell its broken. |
| #3thegreatgalstaffNov 07, 2008 12:57:44 | Thank you for your feed back. I would like to address something I think you missed. -------------- The thing about Reserved spell. Benefit: by taking a -4 the attack rolls you add the Reliable descriptor to your daily spell; it loses any damage or ability it would have on a miss. There for if you miss nothing happens if you hit one person, and miss the rest you still hit therefor you still hit something, so it would not be retained. but I see your point. and tell you the truth this was the one feat that hardly anyone used during playtesting. and with its horrible wording, your right it should be reworded or removed ------------- I'm glad you think most of them are overpowering, but I would like to know why (other than wizards would love it)? does it give to much of a bonus, too much to damage.... and to address the legions hold power. it has a close burst range of 20 Squares that's 200 foot diameter circle around you is giving it 220 feet really that powerful, considering that some spells don't separate friend from foe? you would be Amazed how many times the wizard playtesing this knocked out the defender because of his added range:D I was thinking of putting a limit on how many spells you can meta-magic per day; how about 1+Wisdom mod (min 1). Comments? I will wait until I get more opinions before I start redoing or scraping this all together. |
| #4rikijiNov 07, 2008 14:03:00 | And before you say it I will, I like wizards, and I gave them a bonus to use meta-Magic feats because they have to prepare and don't have to modify there spells on the fly, making it easier for them to use. Wizards cast spells exactly the same as any other implement - using class. Manditory preparation has been relegated to flavor - it's not a game mechanic. A Wizard can swap out their dailies and utilities using their Spellbook feature (and Swordmages have access to a similar ability through a feat), but that only allows them to change spells - they can use their spells regardless. You're applying a 3.5 justification to a 4E rule, and it doesn't fit. Essentially, these feats give Wizards free bonuses with no compensating balancing factor. You could integrate the rule into 4E by keeing it off of the Spellbook feature, but that would only really work in cases where you're swapping something out (i.e. Energy Substitution). Any feat that gave a bonus would still be a freebee for the Wizard. |
| #5alumanNov 07, 2008 14:42:54 | The thing about Reserved spell. I didn't miss that the problem is the wording of Reliable in the PHB is 'if you miss you retain the power' if you hit 1 out 8 you miss 7 out of 8, therfor you retain it. but I see your point. and tell you the truth this was the one feat that hardly anyone used during playtesting. and with its horrible wording, your right it should be reworded or removed Too much for no penalty. Changing 2d4 to 2d6 is an increase of 2 damage, yet its not a feat bonus. Allowing healing surges on powers isn't in even in the feat realm et cetra. and to address the legions hold power. it has a close burst range of 20 Squares that's 200 foot diameter circle around you is giving it 220 feet really that powerful, considering that some spells don't separate friend from foe? you would be Amazed how many times the wizard playtesing this knocked out the defender because of his added range:D Legion Hold does. It targets only Enemies. I was thinking of putting a limit on how many spells you can meta-magic per day; how about 1+Wisdom mod (min 1). Comments? If you do that, make it a paragon class (incantrix) and make these special powers and feats for the Incantrix. I will wait until I get more opinions before I start redoing or scraping this all together. Thats fine, I tend to favor underpower to overpower. |
| #6thegreatgalstaffNov 07, 2008 16:31:17 | Wizards cast spells exactly the same as any other implement - using class. Manditory preparation has been relegated to flavor - it's not a game mechanic. A Wizard can swap out their dailies and utilities using their Spellbook feature (and Swordmages have access to a similar ability through a feat), but that only allows them to change spells - they can use their spells regardless. You're applying a 3.5 justification to a 4E rule, and it doesn't fit. Essentially, these feats give Wizards free bonuses with no compensating balancing factor. Ok, I respect your opinion, but I would like to give mine. page 158 PHB under spell book. it says that "your spell book also holds your daily and utility spells...After a extended rest, you can prepare a number of daily and utility spells according to what you can cast per day for your level." I took that as if you do not prepare your spells (utility or daily) you do not get them. because it says that you have to prepare them after a extended rest, and you can't do it on the fly Thank you for your response, I would love to hear the way you would balance and or fix these feats. |
| #7seerowNov 07, 2008 19:06:25 | Something to consider: IIRC There's a feat that allows a Swordmage to prepare spells as a Wizard does. There's also the possibility of future classes using a similar preparation mechanic. Did you wish to have the benefits of preparation affect only Wizards? I just ask because the reasoning you gave later was because Wizards prepare, in which case having the feats specify if you prepare your spells you get the bonus. Just my 2 cents |
| #8fragsieNov 08, 2008 9:48:51 | I agree with Seerow that your feat's specials should bebased on the presence of a spellbook rather than just being a wizard, and if you make the special half the penalty rather than ignore it, i think its a bit more balanced: 'A class that prepares thier spells in advance through use of a spellbook may prepare them with the use of this feat, if you do, you only recieve half the penalty to hit.' I don't think that the feats are bad or broken just because wizards are deffinately going to take them, otherwise all the metamagic feats in 3.5 were bad too! |
| #9rmn498Nov 08, 2008 10:24:16 | I didn't miss that the problem is the wording of Reliable in the PHB is 'if you miss you retain the power' if you hit 1 out 8 you miss 7 out of 8, therfor you retain it. True. But the errata reads "Reliable: If you don’t hit when using a reliable power, you don’t expend the use of that power." |
| #10thegreatgalstaffNov 08, 2008 13:07:22 | Ok the next batch of feats when I update them will have a whole bunch of changes. This is what I have so far, so you guys dont think I have been ignoring your suggestions. first, I will add the whole preparation thing, and base it off of having a spellbook, I did not realize that wizards and swordmages (with a feat) cast the same way, so wizards and swordmages will get a added bonus. and I will include a section saying that any spellcaster that must prepare his spell for the day (like a wizard or swordmage) will get this bonus. Second, I will remove the "Reserved spell". it sounded like a good idea at the time but I can see now it will just cause problems. Third, Since it has all been negative feedback about the power of these feats (except for Energy Substitution), I will try to cut their power in half and remove most if not all of the negative side effects for using them without a spellbook. Fourth, I will include a limit on how many spells you can Meta-Magic, and say that you can only meta-magic a Daily or Utility spell (since those are the spells you have to prepare using the spellbook) Fifth, I will throw out a possible feat that allows other casters (for Clerics and warlocks and maybe artificer to start) to prepare some spells, therefore removing some of the balance issues and make them applicable and more attractive to other classes that cast spells. Sixth, you guys will have to give me time to test the new mechanics, I have a play test session today and probably wont be back home to write the new versions until tomorrow, keep the input coming and I will try to incorporate you suggestions. |
| #11thegreatgalstaffNov 09, 2008 22:15:17 | OK lets do this Round Two. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Meta-Magic Feats These feats allow for classes that use implements to modify their spells; be it adding range or changing what type of damage can be done. Meta-magic feats have basic rules and this section will outline them. 1) only powers that can be modified are Dailies or utility spells and they must have Implement keyword; unless the feat specifies otherwise. 2) You cannot add more than one meta-magic feat to a power that has the Implement keyword. 3) if you prepare your dailies and/or your utilities like a wizard (the use of a spell book) or a Swordmage with the "Student of sword magic" feat or must mix components to prepare your spells like a Artificer, you may modify them at the beginning of the day and lessen the penalties for most of theses feats. 4) upon taking a Meta-Magic feat you may only modify one valid spell/prayer per feat. 5) if a spell/prayer does not require a attack roll, ignore the penalty section of the feat. ----------------- Energy Substitution (Heroic) This feat allows you to substitute one element of a spell and replace it with another. Prerequisite(s): Int 13+, Wis 13+, trained in religion or arcana Benefit: when casting a spell or prayer you may take a -2 to the attack roll and change the elemental keyword to fire, cold, thunder, acid, or poison. Special: when you take this feat you must pick one of these keywords fire, cold, thunder, acid, or poison, this is the keyword you can chose when using Energy Substitution. Special: this feat can be taken multiple times, you must pick a different keyword each time. Special: a caster that must prepare his/her Dailies and/or utility spells may prepare a spell in advance modifying it with this feat and takes a -1 to attack rolls (instead of the -2). ----------------- Fast Spell (Heroic) with utter recklessness you try to pull off a spell so fast that your opponents cannot react. Prerequisite(s): Int 13+, Wis 13+, trained in religion or arcana Benefit: when casting a spell you may take a -2 to the attack roll, if you do ranged spells do not provoke Attacks of opportunity. Special: a caster that must prepare his/her Dailies and/or utility spells may prepare a spell in advance modifying it with this feat and takes a -1 to attack rolls (instead of the -2). ----------------- Distance Spell (Heroic) you focus on your target even if you barely can see him, and use invisible conduits of energy to accelerate you spells to hit distance targets Prerequisite(s): Int 13+, Wis 13+, trained in religion or arcana Benefit: when casting a spell you may take a -2 to the attack roll, if you do spells with a range gain a additional 3 squares to it. Special: a caster that must prepare his/her Dailies and/or utility spells may prepare a spell in advance modifying it with this feat and takes a -1 to attack rolls (instead of the -2). ----------------- Enlarge spell (paragon) you know how to make "Blast" and "Burst" spells larger and more fierce. at the cost of accuracy Prerequisite(s): Int 15+, Wis 13+, trained in religion or arcana Benefit: when casting a spell you may take a -2 to the attack roll, if you do spells with burst (close or ranged) are increased by 1, spells with a Blast descriptor are increased by 1. Speciall: a caster that must prepare his/her Dailies and/or utility spells may prepare a spell in advance modifying it with this feat and takes a -1 to attack rolls (instead of the -2). ----------------- Quicken spell (Paragon) Using extra power and Strength you use your own essence to cast a spell with but a thought. Prerequisite(s): Int 15+ Wis 13+, trained in religion or arcana, Fast spell. Benefit: you may cast a Utility spell/prayer That requires a "Standard action" as a Minor Action. If the utility spell reqires a attack roll you take a -2 to it. Special: a caster that must prepare his/her Dailies and/or utility spells may prepare a spell in advance modifying it with this feat and takes a -1 to attack rolls (instead of the -2). ----------------- Divine Substitution (Paragon) This feat allows you to substitute one element of a spell and replace it with another. Prerequisite(s): Int 13+, Wis 13+, trained in religion or arcana Benefit: when casting a spell or prayer you may take a -2 to the attack roll and change the elemental keyword to Radiant, Necrotic or force. Special: when you take this feat you must pick one of these keywords Radiant, Necrotic or force, this is the keyword you can chose when using Energy Substitution. Special: this feat can be taken multiple times, you must pick a different keyword each time. Special: a caster that must prepare his/her Dailies and/or utility spells may prepare a spell in advance modifying it with this feat and takes a -1 to attack rolls (instead of the -2). ----------------- Empowered Spell (Epic) your talent/faith has given you the ability to make even your weaker spells into powerful ones. Prerequisite(s): Int 17+ Wis 13+, trained in religion or arcana, and 1 other Meta-Magic feat. Benefit: by taking a -2 the attack rolls you may increase the Die size by one size category (D4s to D6s, D6s to D8s. to a maximum of D12s) Special: If the spell/prayer last for more than one round, only the first round gains the additional die increase. Special: a caster that must prepare his/her Dailies and/or utility spells may prepare a spell in advance modifying it with this feat and takes a -1 to attack rolls (instead of the -2). -------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is not a Meta magic feat but I said I would try to include a feat to make these feats more appealing to Clerics/Paladins. Student of magic (Heroic) you study your prayers and know how to get the most out of them Prerequisite(s): trained in religion or arcana, access to powers called spells or prayers Benefit: for all proposes your are considered to prepare your prayers, this lessens the penalties for using some Meta-Magic feats. you still must fallow the all rules of Meta-magic feats as listed in the description of Meta-Magic feats. After a extended rest you must state what powers your are modifying and with what. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ok, I took your advice and changed them allot, they still have some of my flavor but I use almost all of the suggestions from you guys. CHANGES: I would like to Address the changes before you guys start posting. Quicken spell might seem overpowered but note that I changed what powers it can effect. its still a feat worth taking but not a must have. the standard action note was to make it so that a wizard/warlock could not take 2 movement in a turn (without a action point), and removing some really overpowering combos that I found "Fast spell" I know it sounds useless but I put it in there so that Quicken spell would have a prerequisite to balance it. I added another type of energy substitution that was a paragon feat. I added a General feat so that Clerics and Paladins don't get left out of the fun that is Meta-Magic feats. I eagerly await you guys ripping these feats apart again so that I can try to get them right. Thank you in advance for your opinions, Please PEACH to your hearts content. |