Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ian_33w Jun 01, 2008 21:21:09	I have the books and have played a few adventures, here is what I came up with for a house rule for 4th edition multiclass issues. Each class has a class-specific multiclass feat that gives you access to class features and powers of that class. There are two restrictions on your choice of a class-specific multiclass feat. First, you can’t take a multiclass feat of your own class. Second, once you take a multiclass feat, you can’t take a class-specific feat for another class. You are only allowed two classes. A character who has taken a class-specific multiclass feat counts as a member of that class for the purpose of meeting prerequisites for taking feats and for qualifying for paragon paths. In addition the class skills are added to the characters list of class skills, but are not considered trained. The character can retrain class features and powers as follows: Characters can swap powers from their class with powers of equal level or lower of the multiclass feat class. Characters can also replace one of their class features with a class feature of the multiclass feat class. This counts as their one retraining ability per level. Initiate of the Faith [Multiclass Cleric] Prerequisite: Wis 13 Benefit: You gain training in the Religion skill, if you already have training in this skill, chose another class skill from the Cleric’s list to gain training in. In addition you can change one of your class features for a Cleric class feature; this does not count against your one per level retraining. You also can use a holy symbol as an implement when using a Cleric power or a Cleric paragon power. Student of the Sword [Multiclass Fighter] Prerequisite: Str 13 Benefit: You gain training in a class skill from the Fighter’s list. In addition you can change one of your class features for a Fighter class feature; this does not count against your one per level retraining. Soldier of the Faith [Multiclass Paladin] Prerequisite: Str 13, Cha 13 Benefit: You gain training in the Religion skill, if you already have training in this skill, chose another class skill from the Paladin’s list to gain training in. In addition you can change one of your class features for a Paladin class feature; this does not count against your one per level retraining. You also can use a holy symbol or a holy avenger as an implement when using a Paladin power or a Paladin paragon power. Warrior of the Wild [Multiclass Ranger] Prerequisite: Str 13, Dex 13 Benefit: You gain training in the Dungeoneering or Nature skill, if you already have training in both of these skills, chose another class skill from the Ranger’s list to gain training in. In addition you can change one of your class features for a Ranger class feature; this does not count against your one per level retraining. Sneak of Shadows [Multiclass Rogue] Prerequisite: Dex 13 Benefit: You gain training in the Stealth or Thievery skill, if you already have training in both of these skills, chose another class skill from the Rogue’s list to gain training in. In addition you can change one of your class features for a Rogue class feature; this does not count against your one per level retraining. Pact Initiate [Multiclass Warlock] Prerequisite: Cha 13 Benefit: You gain training in a class skill from the Warlocks’s list. In addition you must give up one of your At Will powers and gain the Eldritch Blast class feature/power. In addition you can change one of your class features for a Warlock class feature; this does not count against your one per level retraining. You also can use a rod, a wand, or a pact blade as an implement when using a Warlock power or a Warlock paragon power. Student of Battle [Multiclass Warlord] Prerequisite: Str 13 Benefit: You gain training in a class skill from the Warlord’s list. In addition you can change one of your class features for a Warlord class feature; this does not count against your one per level retraining. Arcane Initiate [Multiclass Wizard] Prerequisite: Int 13 Benefit: You gain training in the Arcana skill, if you already have training in this skill, chose another class skill from the Wizard’s list to gain training in. In addition you can change one of your class features for a Wizard class feature; this does not count against your one per level retraining. You also can use an orb, a staff, or a wand as an implement when using a Wizard power or a Wizard paragon power.
#2 gosjims Jun 02, 2008 21:53:24	I've thought about a pretty simple way to get a little "more" from multi-classing that I think works. It also doesn't require rewriting any specific powers. Basically I add a rule saying that, when you would normally get a paragon power of a specific level, any character may instead choose to take a power of the same type of a lower level from their main class. This is basically allowing all characters to do the "power swapping" detailed in Paragon Multiclassing. This works for both Multi and Single class characters. Now, if a multi-class character has taken all of the Power Swap feats (Novice Power, Adept Power, Master Power, I believe) for their 2nd class, two things change. First, when they take a paragon path, they can choose to swap one of their At-Will powers for an At-Will power of their second class, this ability works exactly as the power swap feats do. Then second, they can use the above rule about taking a standard lower level power instead of a paragon power, but they can take a lower level power from their main class OR their second class. This sort of pulls the Paragon Multiclassing rules in so that single-class characters can also swap powers if they don't particularly care for a paragon path. But it also rewards multi-class characters who want to go "all the way" and take all of the power swap feats and still want more from their second class. That way if a multi-class character just wants to focus on his main and second class, he can forgo paragon path powers and just get basic class powers, but he doesn't miss out on getting the base paragon path features of a paragon path of his choice. I also add a feat called Multiclass Armor and Multiclass Weapon. When you take Multiclass Armor, you get to add your second class's armor proficiences to your own list. Multiclass Weapon works exactly the same, but for weapons. Would love some input on this. It's simpler than it seems, but I think that's just because the rules are so new.
#3 urmar Jun 02, 2008 22:22:57	I would be really careful about allowing PCs to swap out class features. It appears that the as-written multiclass feats only grant one "feature-lite" to the multiclassing character. I think the intention of the rules is to allow the single-class character to shine. As it stands in 4e, only clerics can turn undead, and only clerics and paladins have the channel divinity feature, which in turn unlocks the god-specific feats. Only clerics get the class healing bonus. These are key game balance considerations. If you make a fighter-cleric, and heal just as good as a same-level cleric, some might ask: why make a cleric? I understand that you are limiting the feature-swap to one class feature, and that you are costing the multiclassing PC one of his class features to do so. I don't dispute that this is a cost, however. Another problem: I'm not sure that all class features are equal, and your proposed mechanic seems to treat them that way. The current 4e initiate feats give selected class feature abilities that the designers felt weren't too overpowered. I read the multiclassing rules like this: I give up 4 feats and paragon path abilities in order to swap into up to 7 powers of my multiclass and get a few class features. Frankly, I don't think losing 4 feats is that critical in 4e (you get 18, after all, by level 30). The hard part is deciding which powers to give up to get the multiclass powers you want.
#4 gosjims Jun 02, 2008 22:35:49	I also believe you should be careful giving away class FEATURES. It definitely looks like multi-classing is meant to be more of a "dabbling" than anything else. Which is why my method simply normalizes the Paragon Multiclassing, so that even a single class character can choose to learn "standard" class powers rather than paragon path powers. But then it also allows a multi-class character who took all those extra feats to do the same, but for their main OR second class. I also don't make them give up the paragon path features. This was something I decided on before even finishing the rules, I don't think it's worth it giving up 3 powers and 3 features from a paragon path (that could be from your second class, so would probably contain similar powers and features) for 3 lower level powers from the base class. That just makes me think anyone multi-classing would ignore the Paragon Multiclassing rules and just take a path from their second class instead. You get more abilities by doing that. I think the abilities being of a lower level is enough of a trade-off for the versatility of taking standard class powers rather than paragon powers, but that's just me.
#5 urmar Jun 02, 2008 22:54:32	To me the paragon multiclassing is very powerful. I reread it just now, and you essentially get one at-will power swap plus three extra powers from the multiclass during levels 11-20. Yes, the paragon multiclasser gives up his paragon path bonus bits, but adding three extra powers (which are just a hair under your current character level) from the multiclass is huge. Frankly, this is the reward for having to dole out 4+ feats in the heroic tier. For instance, in my home group I'll be playing a fighter/cleric. I'm going to burn 5 of my 7 feats before level 11 on multiclassing: initiate of the faith, the three power-swap feats, and the ritual casting feat. This will be somewhat painful at first as I will have fewer powers and feats devoted to fighting at first. However, during the paragon levels, I am free to catch up on all of the stuff I've missed, and I'll have a lot more feat options from having multiclassed. AND I'll have an at-will clerical power (which won't hurt me, since I'm human and have an extra one anyway) plus three extra cleric powers. I won't have the healing class feature or turn undead or the other divine channeling features. But I'll be an effective fighter with a ton of options during a fight.
#6 ian_33w Jun 02, 2008 23:04:07	We also finished reworking the above multiclass feats, we felt that the class features are close enough in power that swapping them would not unbalance the game the catch is that if you swap a class feature beyond the first, you cant swap a power that level. We also broke it up into tiers. i will post it as soon as i finish typing it up.
#7 ian_33w Jun 02, 2008 23:10:27	Here is the update we came up with. Multiclass Feats Each class has a class-specific multiclass feat per tier that gives you access to class features and powers of that class at that tier. There are two restrictions on your choice of a class-specific multiclass feat. First, you can’t take a multiclass feat of your own class. Second, once you take a multiclass feat, you can’t take a class-specific feat for another class. You are only allowed two classes. A character who has taken a class-specific multiclass feat counts as a member of that class for the purpose of meeting prerequisites for taking feats and powers at that tier and for qualifying for paragon paths. In addition the class skills of the second class are added to the characters list of class skills, but are not considered trained. When you gain a new power from leveling, you must chose one from your first class list. After that power is chosen you have the option to retain that power for a power of the same type of equal or lower level from your second class. The character can retrain class features and powers as follows: Characters can retrain powers from their class with equivalent type powers of equal level or lower of their second class of the tier that they have taken the multiclass feat for. Characters can also, instead of retraining powers, replace one of their class features with a class feature of their second class. This counts as their one retraining ability per level. The character can not retrain at 1st level. Heroic Tier Initiate of the Faith [Multiclass Cleric] Prerequisite: Wis 13 Benefit: You gain training in the Religion skill, if you already have training in this skill, chose another class skill from the Cleric’s list to gain training in. In addition you can change one of your class features for a Cleric class feature; this does not count against your one per level retraining. You also can use a holy symbol as an implement when using a Cleric power or a Cleric paragon power. Student of the Sword [Multiclass Fighter] Prerequisite: Str 13 Benefit: You gain training in a class skill from the Fighter’s list. In addition you can change one of your class features for a Fighter class feature; this does not count against your one per level retraining. Soldier of the Faith [Multiclass Paladin] Prerequisite: Str 13, Cha 13 Benefit: You gain training in the Religion skill, if you already have training in this skill, chose another class skill from the Paladin’s list to gain training in. In addition you can change one of your class features for a Paladin class feature; this does not count against your one per level retraining. You also can use a holy symbol or a holy avenger as an implement when using a Paladin power or a Paladin paragon power. Warrior of the Wild [Multiclass Ranger] Prerequisite: Str 13, Dex 13 Benefit: You gain training in the Dungeoneering or Nature skill, if you already have training in both of these skills, chose another class skill from the Ranger’s list to gain training in. In addition you can change one of your class features for a Ranger class feature; this does not count against your one per level retraining. Sneak of Shadows [Multiclass Rogue] Prerequisite: Dex 13 Benefit: You gain training in the Stealth or Thievery skill, if you already have training in both of these skills, chose another class skill from the Rogue’s list to gain training in. In addition you can change one of your class features for a Rogue class feature; this does not count against your one per level retraining. Pact Initiate [Multiclass Warlock] Prerequisite: Cha 13 Benefit: You gain training in a class skill from the Warlocks’s list. In addition you must give up one of your At Will powers and gain the Eldritch Pact class feature/power. In addition you can change one of your class features for a Warlock class feature; this does not count against your one per level retraining. You also can use a rod, a wand, or a pact blade as an implement when using a Warlock power or a Warlock paragon power. Student of Battle [Multiclass Warlord] Prerequisite: Str 13 Benefit: You gain training in a class skill from the Warlord’s list. In addition you can change one of your class features for a Warlord class feature; this does not count against your one per level retraining. Arcane Initiate [Multiclass Wizard] Prerequisite: Int 13 Benefit: You gain training in the Arcana skill, if you already have training in this skill, chose another class skill from the Wizard’s list to gain training in. In addition you can change one of your class features for a Wizard class feature; this does not count against your one per level retraining. You also can use an orb, a staff, or a wand as an implement when using a Wizard power or a Wizard paragon power. Paragon Tier Minister of the Faith [Multiclass Cleric] Prerequisite: Wis 14, Initiate of the Faith Benefit: You now gain access to the 11-20 level lists of powers for Cleric for the purpose of swapping powers. In addition you also gain an addition class feature from the Cleric’s class feature list. Swordsmen [Multiclass Fighter] Prerequisite: Str 14, Student of the Sword Benefit: You now gain access to the 11-20 level lists of powers for Fighter for the purpose of swapping powers. In addition you also gain an addition class feature from the Fighter’s class feature list. Knight of the Faith [Multiclass Paladin] Prerequisite: Str 14, Cha 14, Soldier of the Faith Benefit: You now gain access to the 11-20 level lists of powers for Paladin for the purpose of swapping powers. In addition you also gain an addition class feature from the Paladin’s class feature list. Hunter [Multiclass Ranger] Prerequisite: Str 14, Dex 14, Warrior of the Wild Benefit: You now gain access to the 11-20 level lists of powers for Ranger for the purpose of swapping powers. In addition you also gain an addition class feature from the Ranger’s class feature list. Stalker of Shadows [Multiclass Rogue] Prerequisite: Dex 14, Sneak of Shadows Benefit: You now gain access to the 11-20 level lists of powers for Rogue for the purpose of swapping powers. In addition you also gain an addition class feature from the Rogue’s class feature list. Pact Bound [Multiclass Warlock] Prerequisite: Cha 14, Pact Initiate Benefit: You now gain access to the 11-20 level lists of powers for Warlock for the purpose of swapping powers. In addition you also gain an addition class feature from the Warlock’s class feature list. Tactician of Battle [Multiclass Warlord] Prerequisite: Str 14, Student of Battle Benefit: You now gain access to the 11-20 level lists of powers for Warlord for the purpose of swapping powers. In addition you also gain an addition class feature from the Warlord’s class feature list. Arcane Disciple [Multiclass Wizard] Prerequisite: Int 14, Arcane Initiate Benefit: You now gain access to the 11-20 level lists of powers for Wizard for the purpose of swapping powers. In addition you also gain an addition class feature from the Wizard’s class feature list. Epic Tier Patriarch of the Faith [Multiclass Cleric] Prerequisite: Wis 15, Initiate of the Faith, Minister of the Faith Benefit: You now gain access to the 21-30 level lists of powers for Cleric for the purpose of swapping powers. In addition you also gain an addition class feature from the Cleric’s class feature list. Weapon Master [Multiclass Fighter] Prerequisite: Str 15, Student of the Sword, Swordsmen Benefit: You now gain access to the 21-30 level lists of powers for Fighter for the purpose of swapping powers. In addition you also gain an addition class feature from the Fighter’s class feature list. Templar of the Faith [Multiclass Paladin] Prerequisite: Str 15, Cha 15, Soldier of the Faith, Knight of the Faith Benefit: You now gain access to the 21-30 level lists of powers for Paladin for the purpose of swapping powers. In addition you also gain an addition class feature from the Paladin’s class feature list. Warden of the Wild [Multiclass Ranger] Prerequisite: Str 15, Dex 15, Warrior of the Wild, Hunter Benefit: You now gain access to the 21-30 level lists of powers for Ranger for the purpose of swapping powers. In addition you also gain an addition class feature from the Ranger’s class feature list. Master of Shadows [Multiclass Rogue] Prerequisite: Dex 15, Sneak of Shadows, Stalker of Shadows Benefit: You now gain access to the 21-30 level lists of powers for Rogue for the purpose of swapping powers. In addition you also gain an addition class feature from the Rogue’s class feature list. Pact Sworn [Multiclass Warlock] Prerequisite: Cha 15, Pact Initiate, Pact Bound Benefit: You now gain access to the 21-30 level lists of powers for Warlock for the purpose of swapping powers. In addition you also gain an addition class feature from the Warlock’s class feature list. Marshal of Battle [Multiclass Warlord] Prerequisite: Str 15, Student of Battle, Tactician of Battle Benefit: You now gain access to the 21-30 level lists of powers for Warlord for the purpose of swapping powers. In addition you also gain an addition class feature from the Warlord’s class feature list. Arcane Master [Multiclass Wizard] Prerequisite: Int 15, Arcane Initiate, Arcane Disciple Benefit: You now gain access to the 21-30 level lists of powers for Wizard for the purpose of swapping powers. In addition you also gain an addition class feature from the Wizard’s class feature list.
#8 urmar Jun 02, 2008 23:25:00	Your proposal, ian, is simultaneously weaker and stronger than the 4e standard. It's weaker in that the paragon tier creates power swaps. The 4e standard gives three extra powers at the paragon levels. It's stronger in that it allows a greater variety of power swaps. I think your system dilutes the "class role" of the first class substantially. You may be fine with this, but just realize that doing so will create balance issues. Allowing a multiclasser to freely take any powers of either class at the cost of three feats is too powerful and too versatile, and would penalize single-classers too much -- particularly when paired with the class feature swap you propose. How is the single-class cleric going to feel when his rogue/cleric buddy casts the same level healing spell for the same effect (due to the class feature swap)? I'm not saying your ideas are bad, just that you may want to play with the existing system for awhile.
#9 gosjims Jun 02, 2008 23:29:30	Yes, the paragon multiclasser gives up his paragon path bonus bits, but adding three extra powers (which are just a hair under your current character level) from the multiclass is huge. Frankly, this is the reward for having to dole out 4+ feats in the heroic tier. But that's the thing, you don't get 3 extra powers. You get 3 replacement powers for powers you would have received from a paragon path, and you lose out on 3 class features that are largely independent from normal powers, meaning they have effects in ADDITION to things you would normally do. The benefit of being multi-class is that you use one feat to gain a "light" class feature. Then you can spend up to 3 feats more to switch for a power of a different class. If you spent all 4 feats, you have the choice of giving up 3 paragon path features and 3 paragon path powers for 3 standard class powers of your 2nd class. The thing is, the paragon path powers you give up can be powers related to your 2nd class, so you're not even gaining a lot of versatility. But when it comes down to it, I think the 4 feats are enough of an investment that you should be able to continue training in the class (getting 3 abilities) WITHOUT losing paragon path features (but trading paragon path powers). Obviously not everyone is going to have the same opinion of the value of those paragon path features, but I think they seem to be rather useful, and I can't imagine a player pursuing the "paragon multiclassing" option rather than just taking a full paragon path from their second class.
#10 urmar Jun 02, 2008 23:42:38	But when it comes down to it, I think the 4 feats are enough of an investment that you should be able to continue training in the class (getting 3 abilities) WITHOUT losing paragon path features (but trading paragon path powers). Obviously not everyone is going to have the same opinion of the value of those paragon path features, but I think they seem to be rather useful, and I can't imagine a player pursuing the "paragon multiclassing" option rather than just taking a full paragon path from their second class. I guess it just depends on whether there is a paragon path that fits the concept. If my main goal in multiclassing is to pick up some additional healing and buffs for my fighter/cleric, paragon multiclassing may be a better option. It is true that the paragon path has more goodies, but they are fairly specialized -- especially if you don't already have the bases covered in class #2. To make that determination, you just have to build the character both ways (paragon multiclass or paragon path from either class) and see which one fits better. It's apparent that paragon paths will be to 4e as prestige classes were to 3.x ... fodder for splatbooks galore!
#11 ian_33w Jun 03, 2008 1:27:19	For clarification purpose we decided to add the following part to the house rule: When you gain a new power from leveling, you must chose one from your first class list. After that power is chosen you have the option to retain that power for a power of the same type of equal or lower level from your second class. We (my gaming group and I) tried to create a more versatile system as the book version does not allow that much. We designed this system to allow for concepts that were impossible under the book rules. (Something as simple as a fighter that can cast cantrips and only cantrips, can not be made as there are no option to learn a class feature from an other class in the system.) At best you are 50% your first class and 50% your second class, an even spread of power was the general idea. For every step you lose from your base class over several levels, you gain a step in the second. As there are only so many levels and you can only retrain 1 at a time it will take a long time to to reach a balance of powers or to exceed your first class with second class powers. If any class features are retrained, this will slow down the power retraining even further. A lot of people see that the original multiclass feats give you an extra encounter power, they do, sort of. They give you a very specific class feature of the second class as an extra encounter power. However you do not have any choice in the matter. You get what it says and only that. This system was design to keep everyone with the same number of powers. As for the pure class being "out shined" by the multiclass character, this is only a perception. If a multiclass character can heal as well as the pure class cleric it is only because the multi class character gave up an equal amount of his core class abilities over several level and focused on the healing aspect of cleric. The cleric can still do more "Clerical" (yes its a bad term) action, abilities, and use of powers that the multiclass character can not. The only way for someone to out "cleric" the cleric it to play another cleric.
#12 archtyrant_terevoth Jun 03, 2008 2:37:12	I would be really careful about allowing PCs to swap out class features. Yeah, as a wizard, you can totally give away your cantrips for something more useful.
#13 ian_33w Jun 03, 2008 3:13:50	Cantrips are a class feature as a whole, meaning you would have to lose them all.
#14 urmar Jun 03, 2008 6:32:04	Yeah, as a wizard, you can totally give away your cantrips for something more useful. This right here, Ian, is why your feature swap idea needs some rethinking ... not all class features are equal.
#15 gosjims Jun 03, 2008 8:48:54	I would totally trade Rogue Weapon Talent for a Paladin's Divine Challenge.
#16 ian_33w Jun 04, 2008 12:33:14	Again the issue is not the class feature, it is how some people view them. Cantrips are basically 4 at will; minor action; utility powers as a single class feature. They are useful in various situation's and have had changes made from the 3.5 version of the spells. (example mage hand can now manipulate up to 20 pound and swap items on your body as a minor action, can be sustained, and do other stuff as well.) The Paladins Divine challenge is an at will; minor action combat spell, that is useful in various situations.(Its a single target Mark that requires you to engage the target for it to work.) Every class feature has its pro's and con's. Taken on a individual they are all fairly equal in power and usefulness. The only time a class feature becomes more "powerful" than another is when you want to build a certain type of character. The power level hasn't changed, just its importance to your character. This is fine. The other part is most powers that would be viewed as overpowering have built in limiters. Like sneak attack only works with light blades, crossbow and slings, Healer's Lore only works on Cleric powers with the healing Keyword, fighter/ paladin marks don,t stack then newest one supersedes the old one. Almost all of the class features have some type of limiter when compared or used with another class and often times when used within the class that granted the feature.
#17 urmar Jun 04, 2008 13:12:20	We'll just have to agree to disagree here, Ian. I would still caution you to be very careful about allowing free feature swapping, and I think you're going to end up with a lot of unintended consequences. The whole 4e class system is designed around the idea that each class is really good at something and has a chance to shine. If you allow others to steal those class functions, you dilute the class. I would not alter multiclassing until you play it through level 20 as written, and can see what paragon multiclassing feels like in reality.