4th edition rules change for campaign - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

4th edition rules change for campaign

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
e_whit
Oct 21, 2011 17:06:11 New to 4th and looking to DM. Not new to D&D.
1. Get rid of marks? Marking a target via warrior Pali or warlock. I find the idea behind it stupid. Would getting rid of it hurt the game
2. Con hit pint bonus only at lvl 1? Besides saving throw it is a waste. Also the difference between warrior and wizard health is not noticeable I was thinking of adding con hp bonus for each lvl

3. Healing spell for cleric daily? Was think of making it encounter. Otherwise it takes away from the cleric. Yes I know healing surge for each champ and how the cleric can assist with healing surge. It helps game move faster.

Does sliding and shifting from powers slow combat scene in the game? Was thinking of those changes.
Also how is mordenkeinen (sp) and elminster relate now. Both from FR?
Ty
#2
the_ubbergeek
Oct 21, 2011 17:07:49 In the Multiverse, GH and FR had officious-official links; they both met with Dalamar (and his student) in a serie of famous semi-serious Dragon magazine articles... 'Mage Three', I think was the name. I have 2-3 of it.
#3
Tony_Vargas
Oct 21, 2011 17:20:23
New to 4th and looking to DM. Not new to D&D.

I wouldn't try heavily modifying 4e rules until you're no long new to them. They're quite different, so, while you may have modified older eds of the game with good results, those experiences aren't directly aplicable to the latest version. Get to know it, first.
Ideally, aproach it as a new game, rather than a new version of D&D. There are a lot of differences, and if you get hung up on them, it'll be harder to get a good understanding of the system.
1. Get rid of marks? Marking a target via warrior Pali or warlock. I find the idea behind it stupid. Would getting rid of it hurt the game

Yes, the Defender role depends on marking and similar mechanisms, and eliminating them would hurt the game. Likewise, some monsters use marking to make a tactical difference in some encounters. Warlocks do not mark, the warlock's 'curse' is an entirely different mechanic.
2. Con hit pint bonus only at lvl 1?

Actually, no. You CON /score/, not bonus, is added to your hps at first. If your CON goes up, so do your hps. Your CON /bonus/ adds to your healing surges, which constitute a large reserve of additional hps. Since your healing surge value goes up every level, those extra surges represent more hps from CON, every level.

Also the difference between warrior and wizard health is not noticeable I was thinking of adding con hp bonus for each lvl

It's not just hps, it's surges.  A Fighter might have 9 or even 12 surges, a wizard could have only 6. A 20 hp wizard heals 5 hps with a surge, a 33 hp fighter heal 8. 20 vs 33 may not look like much, but factor in the surges, and it's 50 vs 129. Fighters (and other Defenders) are meant to step up, mark enemies, and attract attacks, then get healed using their larger, more plentiful surges. Wizards are meant to hang out in the back and not get hit so much (as always). It's now more a matter of efficient resource managment, when before it was a matter of the wizard getting into melee being suicide. A good deal less extreme.

Healing spell for cleric daily? Was think of making it encounter. Otherwise it takes away from the cleric. Yes I know healing surge for each champ and how the cleric can assist with healing surge.

Not sure which daily you're talking about. The Cleric's Healing Word is a special twice-per-encounter power.   Cure Light Wounds is a daily utility that heals without using a surge, and such healing is actually quite potent and would be imbalanced as an encounter power (surges are daily resources, afterall), but there are lots of other encounter utility powers a Cleric could choose, instead.

Does sliding and shifting from powers slow combat scene in the game?

I suppose anything requiring resolution slows the game some, but shifting and forced movement do make combat more dynamic and interesting.
#4
Mand12
Oct 21, 2011 17:28:33 4e rules are different than those of previous editions for very specific, designed reasons. Until you fully understand what those reasons are, you shouldn't change the rules.

Either play a different system, or play 4e, or make up something completely on your own. But if you make up something completely on your own, don't tell your players that it's 4e.
#5
Novacat
Oct 21, 2011 17:33:15
I wouldn't try heavily modifying 4e rules until you're no long new to them.

This, this, a thousand times this.

Play without any house-rules first. See what works for you, and what doesn't. You can't know the effects of a rules change without knowing how the rules interact in the first place, and that knowledge can only be gained through experience. That you lumped a warlock's curse in with a paladin's challenge means you obviously don't see how these mechanics work at all. Removing or modifying them at this point would be premature.

And most importantly, talk to your players about what changes they feel would make a positive impact on the game. For example, if your party contains any type of defender class, they will cry foul if you take away their character's defining mechanic.
#6
e_whit
Oct 21, 2011 18:26:18 Ty for your input guys/gals I'll follow your advise
#7
Novacat
Oct 21, 2011 18:44:45
Ty for your input guys/gals I'll follow your advise

When in doubt, don't be afraid to house-rule some things on the fly, if some unusual corner-case causes the rules-as-written to not make any sense. I've done it (a coup de grace on a sleeping humanoid with a axe, I ruled was an auto-kill instead of just doing a ton of damage). That's a DM's job. It's why we're here; to let a human mind control the game instead of cold, hard, dumb numbers.

However, it's important, oh, so important, to remember that any house rule should serve to make the game more fun for your players. Sometimes it's better to get creative with the descriptions than to house rule a power not working as written (in fact, it's almost always better to allow the power to work as written).

An example from my campaign:

Two members of the party were trapped in a dead-end hallway. Between them and the exit was a gelatinous cube, filling up the 10X10 cooridor. One of the PCs used a power that knocks its target prone. Well, some DMs would simply rule that oozes can't be knocked prone, but I took the description of the power (a blast of wind), and said that the wind's pressure caused the top and sides of the cube to lose adhesion with the walls and ceiling of the cooridor, temporarily immobilizing it until it readhered to the hallway (as a move action). Until it did so, its surface tension was reduced due to not being anchored, so it granted combat advantage. It suffered all the mechanical effects of being prone (as per the power's effect), without actually "lying down on the ground."
#8
Garthanos
Oct 21, 2011 23:25:11
Ty for your input guys/gals I'll follow your advise

When in doubt, don't be afraid to house-rule some things on the fly, if some unusual corner-case causes the rules-as-written to not make any sense. I've done it (a coup de grace on a sleeping humanoid with a axe, I ruled was an auto-kill instead of just doing a ton of damage). That's a DM's job. It's why we're here; to let a human mind control the game instead of cold, hard, dumb numbers.

Definitely true...
Especially read page 42 of the DMG carefully absorb it yes let players read it and dont let the only thing characters can do be the powers in their repertoire your game will be much richer for it.
#42
Garthanos
Oct 24, 2011 19:52:46

Then again as you show with your "vaguely expressed" comment, what is well known to video gamers is not specifically well known to gamer fandom at large. I'm still not used to me saying certain video game terms in relation to games and gaming and D&D people not understanding. ;)

I figured you might throw out more details if you knew any...
Possibly true but my only mastered video game was an old thing called Joust and being an olden one I am not born in to the video game era. I like WoW and have dabbled with EverQuest 2... but WoW is largely socially driven to me I am a very casual player we have friends that play and so we started playing.

Most of the similarities between WoW and D&D I consider to be the good things... its the disimilarities that make WoW less than I would like it to be.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 e_whit Oct 21, 2011 17:06:11	New to 4th and looking to DM. Not new to D&D. 1. Get rid of marks? Marking a target via warrior Pali or warlock. I find the idea behind it stupid. Would getting rid of it hurt the game 2. Con hit pint bonus only at lvl 1? Besides saving throw it is a waste. Also the difference between warrior and wizard health is not noticeable I was thinking of adding con hp bonus for each lvl 3. Healing spell for cleric daily? Was think of making it encounter. Otherwise it takes away from the cleric. Yes I know healing surge for each champ and how the cleric can assist with healing surge. It helps game move faster. Does sliding and shifting from powers slow combat scene in the game? Was thinking of those changes. Also how is mordenkeinen (sp) and elminster relate now. Both from FR? Ty
#2 the_ubbergeek Oct 21, 2011 17:07:49	In the Multiverse, GH and FR had officious-official links; they both met with Dalamar (and his student) in a serie of famous semi-serious Dragon magazine articles... 'Mage Three', I think was the name. I have 2-3 of it.
#3 Tony_Vargas Oct 21, 2011 17:20:23	New to 4th and looking to DM. Not new to D&D. I wouldn't try heavily modifying 4e rules until you're no long new to them. They're quite different, so, while you may have modified older eds of the game with good results, those experiences aren't directly aplicable to the latest version. Get to know it, first. Ideally, aproach it as a new game, rather than a new version of D&D. There are a lot of differences, and if you get hung up on them, it'll be harder to get a good understanding of the system. 1. Get rid of marks? Marking a target via warrior Pali or warlock. I find the idea behind it stupid. Would getting rid of it hurt the game Yes, the Defender role depends on marking and similar mechanisms, and eliminating them would hurt the game. Likewise, some monsters use marking to make a tactical difference in some encounters. Warlocks do not mark, the warlock's 'curse' is an entirely different mechanic. 2. Con hit pint bonus only at lvl 1? Actually, no. You CON /score/, not bonus, is added to your hps at first. If your CON goes up, so do your hps. Your CON /bonus/ adds to your healing surges, which constitute a large reserve of additional hps. Since your healing surge value goes up every level, those extra surges represent more hps from CON, every level. Also the difference between warrior and wizard health is not noticeable I was thinking of adding con hp bonus for each lvl It's not just hps, it's surges. A Fighter might have 9 or even 12 surges, a wizard could have only 6. A 20 hp wizard heals 5 hps with a surge, a 33 hp fighter heal 8. 20 vs 33 may not look like much, but factor in the surges, and it's 50 vs 129. Fighters (and other Defenders) are meant to step up, mark enemies, and attract attacks, then get healed using their larger, more plentiful surges. Wizards are meant to hang out in the back and not get hit so much (as always). It's now more a matter of efficient resource managment, when before it was a matter of the wizard getting into melee being suicide. A good deal less extreme. Healing spell for cleric daily? Was think of making it encounter. Otherwise it takes away from the cleric. Yes I know healing surge for each champ and how the cleric can assist with healing surge. Not sure which daily you're talking about. The Cleric's Healing Word is a special twice-per-encounter power. Cure Light Wounds is a daily utility that heals without using a surge, and such healing is actually quite potent and would be imbalanced as an encounter power (surges are daily resources, afterall), but there are lots of other encounter utility powers a Cleric could choose, instead. Does sliding and shifting from powers slow combat scene in the game? I suppose anything requiring resolution slows the game some, but shifting and forced movement do make combat more dynamic and interesting.
#4 Mand12 Oct 21, 2011 17:28:33	4e rules are different than those of previous editions for very specific, designed reasons. Until you fully understand what those reasons are, you shouldn't change the rules. Either play a different system, or play 4e, or make up something completely on your own. But if you make up something completely on your own, don't tell your players that it's 4e.
#5 Novacat Oct 21, 2011 17:33:15	I wouldn't try heavily modifying 4e rules until you're no long new to them. This, this, a thousand times this. Play without any house-rules first. See what works for you, and what doesn't. You can't know the effects of a rules change without knowing how the rules interact in the first place, and that knowledge can only be gained through experience. That you lumped a warlock's curse in with a paladin's challenge means you obviously don't see how these mechanics work at all. Removing or modifying them at this point would be premature. And most importantly, talk to your players about what changes they feel would make a positive impact on the game. For example, if your party contains any type of defender class, they will cry foul if you take away their character's defining mechanic.
#6 e_whit Oct 21, 2011 18:26:18	Ty for your input guys/gals I'll follow your advise
#7 Novacat Oct 21, 2011 18:44:45	Ty for your input guys/gals I'll follow your advise When in doubt, don't be afraid to house-rule some things on the fly, if some unusual corner-case causes the rules-as-written to not make any sense. I've done it (a coup de grace on a sleeping humanoid with a axe, I ruled was an auto-kill instead of just doing a ton of damage). That's a DM's job. It's why we're here; to let a human mind control the game instead of cold, hard, dumb numbers. However, it's important, oh, so important, to remember that any house rule should serve to make the game more fun for your players. Sometimes it's better to get creative with the descriptions than to house rule a power not working as written (in fact, it's almost always better to allow the power to work as written). An example from my campaign: Two members of the party were trapped in a dead-end hallway. Between them and the exit was a gelatinous cube, filling up the 10X10 cooridor. One of the PCs used a power that knocks its target prone. Well, some DMs would simply rule that oozes can't be knocked prone, but I took the description of the power (a blast of wind), and said that the wind's pressure caused the top and sides of the cube to lose adhesion with the walls and ceiling of the cooridor, temporarily immobilizing it until it readhered to the hallway (as a move action). Until it did so, its surface tension was reduced due to not being anchored, so it granted combat advantage. It suffered all the mechanical effects of being prone (as per the power's effect), without actually "lying down on the ground."
#8 Garthanos Oct 21, 2011 23:25:11	Ty for your input guys/gals I'll follow your advise When in doubt, don't be afraid to house-rule some things on the fly, if some unusual corner-case causes the rules-as-written to not make any sense. I've done it (a coup de grace on a sleeping humanoid with a axe, I ruled was an auto-kill instead of just doing a ton of damage). That's a DM's job. It's why we're here; to let a human mind control the game instead of cold, hard, dumb numbers. Definitely true... Especially read page 42 of the DMG carefully absorb it yes let players read it and dont let the only thing characters can do be the powers in their repertoire your game will be much richer for it.
#42 Garthanos Oct 24, 2011 19:52:46	Then again as you show with your "vaguely expressed" comment, what is well known to video gamers is not specifically well known to gamer fandom at large. I'm still not used to me saying certain video game terms in relation to games and gaming and D&D people not understanding. ;) I figured you might throw out more details if you knew any... Possibly true but my only mastered video game was an old thing called Joust and being an olden one I am not born in to the video game era. I like WoW and have dabbled with EverQuest 2... but WoW is largely socially driven to me I am a very casual player we have friends that play and so we started playing. Most of the similarities between WoW and D&D I consider to be the good things... its the disimilarities that make WoW less than I would like it to be.